rumba434
rumba434
  • Threads: 10
  • Posts: 34
Joined: May 13, 2020
Thanked by
MrCasinoGames
February 12th, 2022 at 5:20:45 PM permalink
At Playtech casinos you can "bet behind" someone. If you bet behind you have no input into hits or stands, the player controls that. You can choose whether or not to increase your stake when the player doubles/splits. You can make this decision on the fly after seeing the initial cards.

If player splits you can choose to just follow the 1st split, ignore the 2nd and not increase your stake. A 2 card 21 got by this method is still just 21. This could technically be exploited by a player in cahoots with a friend, player betting low and altering his strategy for the benefit of his friend, who bets much higher behind and has the effective choice of Stand, Hit, Double, Split or **remove one card** when confronted with a pair. If we assume the player's bet is negligible, how much RTP would a "remove one card from pair" option gain?
ksdjdj
ksdjdj
  • Threads: 94
  • Posts: 1707
Joined: Oct 20, 2013
Thanked by
MrCasinoGamesDieter
February 12th, 2022 at 6:40:47 PM permalink
Here is a link that may be useful >>> strategy_link

This link will take you to the "BJ Expected Values" (EV) page. You can click on the relevant^^^ link on that page and it will tell you the EV for each decision***.

^^^: For example say you wanted to know the values for "6 decks, dealer stands on soft 17" and "Player may resplit to four hands, except aces and No drawing to split aces", then you would click here

***: If the play has a positive EV then you play both hands in the split, but on the negative EV plays you just play one hand as the "back bettor"

---
I think the overall EV improvement of this is around 0.15% ###, if the front players' bet is the table minimum and the back players' bet is the table maximum.

###: This figure is from memory, and also I can't remember what the table min and max, was so I could be wrong.
Last edited by: ksdjdj on Feb 12, 2022
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
  • Threads: 122
  • Posts: 11083
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
February 13th, 2022 at 5:34:38 AM permalink
Quote: rumba434

At Playtech casinos you can "bet behind" someone. If you bet behind you have no input into hits or stands, the player controls that. You can choose whether or not to increase your stake when the player doubles/splits. You can make this decision on the fly after seeing the initial cards.

If player splits you can choose to just follow the 1st split, ignore the 2nd and not increase your stake. A 2 card 21 got by this method is still just 21. This could technically be exploited by a player in cahoots with a friend, player betting low and altering his strategy for the benefit of his friend, who bets much higher behind and has the effective choice of Stand, Hit, Double, Split or **remove one card** when confronted with a pair. If we assume the player's bet is negligible, how much RTP would a "remove one card from pair" option gain?
link to original post



Iím not sure I understand. Are you saying if player A is betting $1 and player B is betting $100, and player A decides to split his 7ís against an 8, you can choose to only play one of the 7ís? I think in the next post you mentioned a player edge of .15% for those rules. Sounds about right. Why do I think if you used this strategy at an on line casino it would be red flags to them?
teliot
teliot
  • Threads: 43
  • Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
Thanked by
gordonm888
February 13th, 2022 at 6:13:39 AM permalink
Quote: rumba434

At Playtech casinos you can "bet behind" someone. If you bet behind you have no input into hits or stands, the player controls that. You can choose whether or not to increase your stake when the player doubles/splits. You can make this decision on the fly after seeing the initial cards.

If player splits you can choose to just follow the 1st split, ignore the 2nd and not increase your stake. A 2 card 21 got by this method is still just 21. This could technically be exploited by a player in cahoots with a friend, player betting low and altering his strategy for the benefit of his friend, who bets much higher behind and has the effective choice of Stand, Hit, Double, Split or **remove one card** when confronted with a pair. If we assume the player's bet is negligible, how much RTP would a "remove one card from pair" option gain?
link to original post

There are teams that exploit these sorts of games on an international level -- it's called "Splitting for Less." Here is an article I wrote about this.

https://www.888casino.com/blog/blackjack-tips/splitting-for-less-in-blackjack
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
  • Threads: 122
  • Posts: 11083
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
February 13th, 2022 at 6:50:04 AM permalink
Quote: teliot

Quote: rumba434

At Playtech casinos you can "bet behind" someone. If you bet behind you have no input into hits or stands, the player controls that. You can choose whether or not to increase your stake when the player doubles/splits. You can make this decision on the fly after seeing the initial cards.

If player splits you can choose to just follow the 1st split, ignore the 2nd and not increase your stake. A 2 card 21 got by this method is still just 21. This could technically be exploited by a player in cahoots with a friend, player betting low and altering his strategy for the benefit of his friend, who bets much higher behind and has the effective choice of Stand, Hit, Double, Split or **remove one card** when confronted with a pair. If we assume the player's bet is negligible, how much RTP would a "remove one card from pair" option gain?
link to original post

There are teams that exploit these sorts of games on an international level -- it's called "Splitting for Less." Here is an article I wrote about this.

https://www.888casino.com/blog/blackjack-tips/splitting-for-less-in-blackjack
link to original post



Great article, as usual. I want to disagree with your conclusion that it would be difficult to detect this scheme being used. If Iím noting one guy betting $5 and the guy behind him betting $100 the FIRST thing Iíd look for is what they do during splits. It would only take a few such hands for me to put the kibosh on the team.
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
  • Threads: 39
  • Posts: 2967
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
February 13th, 2022 at 10:24:07 AM permalink
I vaguely remember the 0.15% number when I looked at it. I think I assumed it was equal bets where you looked at the total effect on both bets, so would split 3s vs 8 but not vs 9.
teliot
teliot
  • Threads: 43
  • Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
February 13th, 2022 at 10:50:19 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

I want to disagree with your conclusion that it would be difficult to detect this scheme being used. If Iím noting one guy betting $5 and the guy behind him betting $100 the FIRST thing Iíd look for is what they do during splits.

That's because you are brilliant and intuitive.

In my experience (and yes, I busted a team doing this in person, and have assisted several casinos in identifying this play), you can watch the team play for several hours before one of the obscure back-betting splits happens, all the time wondering if they are counting, see hole-cards, marking the cards, edge sorting, have a camera in the shoe, have busted the automatic shuffler, tracking Aces, etc. Then it happens once (like splitting 3-3 against 9) and you wonder if they are eating cards because an Ace is due, or maybe the cards are marked, etc.

You think it's easy? Well, if it happened 10 times in an hour, maybe. But that's not what happens with this play. The exceptional splits are rare. This thing is very hard to detect in real life.

Now, consider your average casino floor manager, table games director or surveillance manager at Bob's casino, and ask him the question "you are allowed to double for less, why aren't you allowed to split for less?" He may not even know it's a rule.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
DogHand
DogHand
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 1600
Joined: Sep 24, 2011
February 13th, 2022 at 2:59:08 PM permalink
Quote: rumba434

At Playtech casinos you can "bet behind" someone. If you bet behind you have no input into hits or stands, the player controls that. You can choose whether or not to increase your stake when the player doubles/splits. You can make this decision on the fly after seeing the initial cards.

If player splits you can choose to just follow the 1st split, ignore the 2nd and not increase your stake. A 2 card 21 got by this method is still just 21. This could technically be exploited by a player in cahoots with a friend, player betting low and altering his strategy for the benefit of his friend, who bets much higher behind and has the effective choice of Stand, Hit, Double, Split or **remove one card** when confronted with a pair. If we assume the player's bet is negligible, how much RTP would a "remove one card from pair" option gain?
link to original post



rumba434,

I analyzed this option and posted the results over at bj21.com back in March of 2013. If you are a paying member at bj21.com, you can access the post and see the appropriate strategy at this address:

https://bj21.com/boards/green-chip-forums/sub_boards/posts-of-the-month-archive/topics/mar-2013-splitting-hairs-on-hairy-splits?page=1

At any rate, the value of this "unequal split" option varies with the ratio of the back bettor's wager to the front bettor's wager, the number of decks (8, 6, 4, or 2) used in the game, whether the dealer hits or stands on soft 17, and whether the game is NoDAS or DAS, with in each case the first-named option giving the better results. Under the best conditions: 100:1 ratio, 8D, H17, and NoDAS, optimal team strategy will give the team an additional +0.1739%, so the team strategy alone will not overcome the house edge.

However, if you can find a back betting game with 2D, S17, DAS, and RSA (resplit aces) where the player's IBA is roughly -0.14%, and your team can use a 100:1 bet ratio, then the +0.1572% gained by using optimal unequal splitting strategy WILL just barely make the game +EV... for the 10 or so minutes your team will be allowed to play ;-)

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand
aceside
aceside
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 529
Joined: May 14, 2021
February 13th, 2022 at 5:10:37 PM permalink
Although this +0.16% is positive, it is teeny tiny. If this back betting is allowed, then the back player would easily do back counting to get an edge of more than +2% himself alone. Why even bother doing cahoots? Logic?
teliot
teliot
  • Threads: 43
  • Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
February 13th, 2022 at 5:13:07 PM permalink
It is employed against CSM games. Big money games with a low house edge and back betting are available in certain parts of Asia. Counting is not easy against machines, though it is still possible.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
aceside
aceside
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 529
Joined: May 14, 2021
February 13th, 2022 at 5:18:32 PM permalink
CSM is even worse. No practical way to overcome the house edge.
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 2155
Joined: Aug 1, 2011
Thanked by
teliot
February 13th, 2022 at 5:36:26 PM permalink
Stanford Wong covered this years ago and itís in his book blackjack secrets.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
MrCasinoGames
MrCasinoGames
  • Threads: 200
  • Posts: 12402
Joined: Sep 13, 2010
February 13th, 2022 at 6:01:55 PM permalink
Hi, new blackjack rule that replaces the traditional splitting rule ©2009. Math by Cynthia Liu (Including House-Edge on 1-8 Decks). https://bit.ly/3Lqqreh
Players have the option of making a second wager, equal to or less than their original wager, on the second split hand... Read-More: https://bit.ly/3Lqqreh

Also, see Wizard of Odds (Unlimited Blackjack Page): UnlimitedBlackjackWoO.com

Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
teliot
teliot
  • Threads: 43
  • Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
Thanked by
Hunterhill
February 13th, 2022 at 6:10:27 PM permalink
Quote: aceside

CSM is even worse. No practical way to overcome the house edge.
link to original post

If you are just making a random statement as if you're an authority on advantage play against csms, I'll just make a non-random statement that you are 100% wrong here.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
aceside
aceside
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 529
Joined: May 14, 2021
February 13th, 2022 at 9:07:17 PM permalink
I made this random statement for a purpose. I want to learn from you because I myself have never thought of beating a CSM.
aceside
aceside
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 529
Joined: May 14, 2021
February 13th, 2022 at 9:08:08 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

Stanford Wong covered this years ago and itís in his book blackjack secrets.
link to original post


I just looked up this book but could not find any mention of this. On what page?
unJon
unJon
  • Threads: 14
  • Posts: 4654
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
Thanked by
MrCasinoGames
February 13th, 2022 at 9:23:22 PM permalink
Quote: aceside

I made this random statement for a purpose. I want to learn from you because I myself have never thought of beating a CSM.
link to original post



Every CSM has a buffer of cards that the mucked cards are not shuffled into. So for example, the next to be dealt 20 cards will never contain the mucked cards that the dealer just inserted into the machine.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 2155
Joined: Aug 1, 2011
February 13th, 2022 at 9:30:07 PM permalink
Quote: aceside

Quote: Hunterhill

Stanford Wong covered this years ago and itís in his book blackjack secrets.
link to original post


I just looked up this book but could not find any mention of this. On what page?
link to original post


I donít remember what page. My books are packed away at the moment. It also might be in his book winning without counting.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
aceside
aceside
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 529
Joined: May 14, 2021
February 13th, 2022 at 9:32:40 PM permalink
Quote: unJon

Quote: aceside

I made this random statement for a purpose. I want to learn from you because I myself have never thought of beating a CSM.
link to original post



Every CSM has a buffer of cards that the mucked cards are not shuffled into. So for example, the next to be dealt 20 cards will never contain the mucked cards that the dealer just inserted into the machine.
link to original post


Theoretically interesting, but the edge you will get from these 20 cards is almost zero. Suppose all these 20 cards are aces, then I will skip the next hand immediately. Is this what you mean?
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
  • Threads: 39
  • Posts: 2967
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
Thanked by
MrCasinoGames
February 14th, 2022 at 12:51:19 AM permalink
This is drifting off topic, so please forgive me.
I will reference a measure that Eliot introduced which is you watch 100 hands and can either bet $100 on each hand that has a player advantage, else $0. The measure is how much, on average, you make by doing this; and gives an indication of how countable a (new) game/sidebet is and whether it's worth the bother doing it. Of course you also need to develop an accurate counting method.

With regular shoe based BJ, this value is (very roughly, say) $10 to $60; so in theory there is some scope to make money. When I tried to simulate a CSM, keeping details of the last 16 cards, I think it was under $1.

These are only meant to show the kind of difference rather than exact figures - but the conclusion is :
yes there is technically an opportunity to make money, but for practical purposes it isn't worth the effort.
teliot
teliot
  • Threads: 43
  • Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
February 14th, 2022 at 5:16:22 AM permalink
Splitting for less changes the house edge by under 0.2%. You need a great game to begin with in order for it to even be feasible as a strategy. Some California card rooms allow split for less on back betting but the games are lousy to begin with. The only places I've seen it done for profit are in Asia.

As an aside on CSMs, I highly recommend,

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/magazine/how-advantage-players-game-the-casinos.html
Last edited by: teliot on Feb 14, 2022
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
aceside
aceside
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 529
Joined: May 14, 2021
February 14th, 2022 at 11:52:04 AM permalink
This MrCasinoGames just randomly gave out credits. Credits were not given to those people who deserve to be awarded.
tyler498
tyler498
  • Threads: 20
  • Posts: 188
Joined: Jun 24, 2017
Thanked by
MrCasinoGames
February 14th, 2022 at 7:53:35 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

This is drifting off topic, so please forgive me.
I will reference a measure that Eliot introduced which is you watch 100 hands and can either bet $100 on each hand that has a player advantage, else $0. The measure is how much, on average, you make by doing this; and gives an indication of how countable a (new) game/sidebet is and whether it's worth the bother doing it. Of course you also need to develop an accurate counting method.

With regular shoe based BJ, this value is (very roughly, say) $10 to $60; so in theory there is some scope to make money. When I tried to simulate a CSM, keeping details of the last 16 cards, I think it was under $1.

These are only meant to show the kind of difference rather than exact figures - but the conclusion is :
yes there is technically an opportunity to make money, but for practical purposes it isn't worth the effort.
link to original post



I am not sure if that is taken into account, but the figure you have for a shoe game likely involves a normal game as found in the US.
I've seen games in Asia where the house edge for basic strategy is just 0.10% csm 3/2 S17 DAS DA RSA LS and Hit split ace! With an initial edge so small a lot more hands go into positive territory.
blackjacklad
blackjacklad
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 87
Joined: Dec 14, 2017
Thanked by
teliot
February 20th, 2022 at 3:57:55 PM permalink
There is a European country I was playing in pre-pandemic with games with similar edge, and dealers making mistakes often enough to create a player advantage. If I'd had a partner those games were ripe for a splitting-for-less team.
aceside
aceside
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 529
Joined: May 14, 2021
February 21st, 2022 at 7:51:37 AM permalink
Quote: tyler498

Quote: charliepatrick

This is drifting off topic, so please forgive me.
I will reference a measure that Eliot introduced which is you watch 100 hands and can either bet $100 on each hand that has a player advantage, else $0. The measure is how much, on average, you make by doing this; and gives an indication of how countable a (new) game/sidebet is and whether it's worth the bother doing it. Of course you also need to develop an accurate counting method.

With regular shoe based BJ, this value is (very roughly, say) $10 to $60; so in theory there is some scope to make money. When I tried to simulate a CSM, keeping details of the last 16 cards, I think it was under $1.

These are only meant to show the kind of difference rather than exact figures - but the conclusion is :
yes there is technically an opportunity to make money, but for practical purposes it isn't worth the effort.
link to original post



I am not sure if that is taken into account, but the figure you have for a shoe game likely involves a normal game as found in the US.
I've seen games in Asia where the house edge for basic strategy is just 0.10% csm 3/2 S17 DAS DA RSA LS and Hit split ace! With an initial edge so small a lot more hands go into positive territory.
link to original post


Has anybody here played blackjack in any casinos in Macau? What rules do they use today?
  • Jump to: