TomG
TomG
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April 26th, 2020 at 5:48:26 PM permalink
Quote: sara312777

Hi I’m new here so not sure if this topic has been exhausted before or not. I will start with that I cannot speak for all casinos, only the ones I have worked at and frequented and then tell you some hear-say information and some information I have gathered myself from observing the protocols of employees working for shuffle master when they enter the casino. I’ll try and get straight to it.



Your opinions are very well thought out and are supported by very strong evidence. There is really no way the claims you make can be dismissed. I am going to take this new information and use it accordingly.
Zcore13
Zcore13
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April 26th, 2020 at 6:46:41 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

Your opinions are very well thought out and are supported by very strong evidence. There is really no way the claims you make can be dismissed. I am going to take this new information and use it accordingly.




ZCore13

I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
gordonm888
gordonm888
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April 26th, 2020 at 11:22:07 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Almost everything you say is ridiculous and false.
Anti-clumping means the cards are shuffled enough so that the previous deal doesn't leave clumps of the same cards in the same order.



But OP said
Quote: sara312777

A count of 0 is always in the casinos favor and is achievable just by.. well let’s just use shuffle masters own personal description of their product “non card clumping technology.” For example the cards come out in a way that always cancel eachother out regardless of play, hands, or where the deck is cut. (high high high low low neutral neutral high low low) (low high low high high high low low low high.)



So, Sara seems to be quoting shufflemaster's own description of the non-card clumping technology. The shuffler device certainly has the technological capability to continuously assure that the current card being dealt keeps the last 12 cards dealt at a true count of zero if its software was programmed that way.. That sounds a hell of a lot more like "non-card clumping technology" than merely shuffling the deck 7 times or whatever is needed. Because shuffling a stack of cards n times is not a "technology" -it is merely a number put into the software.
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jjjoooggg
jjjoooggg
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April 27th, 2020 at 2:14:43 AM permalink
A zero count wouldn't create more losers. It would only stop counters from spreading their bets. There has to be more going on if people are losing more.
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DJTeddyBear
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April 27th, 2020 at 9:06:07 AM permalink
$30,000 per month? Sure. If you're talking about the total for all the machines in the casino.

The number I heard was more like $500 per month per machine.

For the record, when I was at G2E last year, I saw the new generation of ShuffleMaster machines. The new model 8 deck shuffler was operating without covers so you could see how it works. It included occasional/random half turns, which effectively eliminates any possibility of edge sorting. The selling price was $40,000. I didn't ask what the lease price was. Frankly, I think the $40K was artificially high to discourage purchases.


In the past, at Sands in PA, I'd seen floormen take shufflers out of poker tables, then replace them with a unit from a closed table, and once saw an open CSM machine on the casino floor, being serviced by a guy wearing a ShuffleMaster logo shirt (the onlookers wouldn't spend more than a few seconds before moving on).
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racquet
racquet
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April 27th, 2020 at 9:27:00 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Anti-clumping means the cards are shuffled enough so that the previous deal doesn't leave clumps of the same cards in the same order.
ZCore13



That sounds like what I was saying.

Shuffling by hand, or even a machine simply mixing the cards in a totally random manner, implies that "clumps" of high-value or low-value cards could be present in the deck. Washing the cards at the beginning of the day or shuffling them a thousand times between shoes, randomly, again, means that, by ACCIDENT, UNINTENTIONALLY, some uneven distribution of the cards could occur. No guarantee, either way. That's PRECISELY why card counting works.

Any method that looks to the sequence of the cards and only allows a sequence that it prefers, whatever that sequence is, by definition, not random.

We can all count through a single deck when practicing, and easily see situations where the deck has a very high or very low TC. Who doesn't recall a practice session where the deck got to be +8 or -5. When that happens to me I wonder if my mental count is wrong, and if I need to practice more. Everybody remembers "that time" when five blackjacks were dealt in a row, or when they themselves got four in a row. All of these things happened because the condition of the deck was truly random.

Imagine if a six deck shoe were only allowed to be given to the dealer if the TC in that ENTIRE shoe never went above +1. Regardless of where the cut card went when it was placed in the deck by a player, regardless of how many cards each player took or not, for the ENTIRE deck, the count never exceeded +1,

The cut card would not matter, Player decisions would not matter. Penetration would not matter. The count is NEVER going to go over +1. Deal the deck down to the very last card, and the count is never going to go above +1.

What casino would not want to deal that game? If the dealer took the deck and started looking at the cards, face up, to pre-load a shoe that way, would it be ok? But if the machine next to that dealer does the same exact thing, and if the company renting the machine called it "de-clumping technology"...
KevinAA
KevinAA
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Thanks for this post from:
Zcore13
April 28th, 2020 at 2:14:24 PM permalink
While I am a BJ dealer, my spouse was a pit boss and is now a CSM. My spouse wants to respond as follows:

First the Shuffle Master's are not $30,000 a month. Depending on the model, they range from $700 to $800 per month, unlimited shuffles; service included. Some are cheaper, namely your back-up machines as they are charged on a per shuffle basis when used.

If a machine breaks down, one is swapped out from a closed table or with a loaner. This is done right on the floor, in view of the dealer and guests. Extra's are kept in a locked cupboard in the pit, usually the podium, and taken out as necessary. Every week someone from Shuffle Master comes to the casino and repairs any machines that need it and cleans every other machine. This is done right in the pit, at a closed table.

It is true there is a mode where you can have the machine sort the cards back into original order. In 3 years I have seen it used once, where it was thought either a dealer or player was palming cards. That feature is turned off as a rule, with the only feature enabled is a confirmation that the correct number of cards are being used.

Finally if you are doing a proper hand shuffle, there is no way you can shuffle 6 decks in 20 seconds or so. Each of the 6 decks would take at least 10 seconds, meaning you are needing at least 1 minute. Even that is a bit quick.
racquet
racquet
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April 28th, 2020 at 3:08:54 PM permalink
Quote: KevinAA

...with the only feature enabled is a confirmation that the correct number of cards are being used.



Is there a "declumping" feature that also can be enabled or not, or are there just the two you mention: sort into card order and confirm the proper number of cards?

Does "correct number of cards" mean just count to 312 or 416, without verifying that that there are the right number of each denomination?

I've seen a dealer call out "I got a red light" when the machine indicates a problem, and I've seen cards stuck in the machine when he pulls the decks out. What does the red light signal?
Zcore13
Zcore13
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TDVegasEdCollins
April 28th, 2020 at 3:30:36 PM permalink
Quote: racquet

Is there a "declumping" feature that also can be enabled or not, or are there just the two you mention: sort into card order and confirm the proper number of cards?

Does "correct number of cards" mean just count to 312 or 416, without verifying that that there are the right number of each denomination?

I've seen a dealer call out "I got a red light" when the machine indicates a problem, and I've seen cards stuck in the machine when he pulls the decks out. What does the red light signal?



There is no such thing as a de-clumping feature. Posts like the one the original posted posted show up here every couple of months. Usually the poster then disappears without even replying. I'm guessing many are from the same person.

The shufflers don't purposely put cards in any order unless they are set on the new deck order setting. When this happens the machine lights up and blinks showing it is in that mode.

They don't deal out cards in any way that gives any player or the dealer an advantage.

The shuffler does not know how many players are playing or how many hands a single player is playing.

There is no setting that can make the house win more than any other time.

There is no secret switch or chip that has to be hidden from the public. Machines are not guarded or hidden from public view when being cleaned or maintained unless the casino has a special place to do this. Most casinos have them done on an empty table.

There probably a dozen more things I could say. but they relate to machines are not ways to cheat and every machines software has multiple security checks between manufacturing and hitting a casino, including 3rd party software/hardware review with verification and digital signatures to stop tampering.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
AceCrAAckers
AceCrAAckers
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April 28th, 2020 at 3:48:33 PM permalink
At the pai gow table, with a shuffle machine and rng that is electronic, I have seen the dealer win way more than statically realistic. I will grant that the sample size is small, but in over a hour of hands played, the dealer always had at least a joker or an ace.

I have mentioned this to the dealers there and they tend to agree that the house has more than their share of good hands. This place does not let players bank.

If everything is random, why not use dice to determine who gets the first hand?

Even when the casino is packed, and many players are on the baccarat tables, the pai gow tables are empty, or just one or two players.

I have never heard a good reason for rng and not using dice?
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