sara312777
sara312777
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April 26th, 2020 at 8:39:11 AM permalink
Hi Iím new here so not sure if this topic has been exhausted before or not. I will start with that I cannot speak for all casinos, only the ones I have worked at and frequented and then tell you some hear-say information and some information I have gathered myself from observing the protocols of employees working for shuffle master when they enter the casino. Iíll try and get straight to it.

It took me about 2 years of dealing on shuffle master shufflers to figure out how they were getting such a seemingly large advantage. Of course Iíve heard it all from players on how the casino is cheating, most of the ideas are outrageous and include collusion on multiple levels. Logically I knew something was off but how can it be done without predicting a players behavior, the amount of hands, players in and out, where the shoe was cut, etc. Simple, shuffle master uses card counting to always keep the count in the casinos favor without ever counting anything at all. A blackjack starts in a 0 count and ends in a 0 count if no mistakes are made and every card is dealt. A count of 0 is always in the casinos favor and is achievable just by.. well letís just use shuffle masters own personal description of their product ďnon card clumping technology.Ē For example the cards come out in a way that always cancel eachother out regardless of play, hands, or where the deck is cut. (high high high low low neutral neutral high low low) (low high low high high high low low low high.) This is just my personal opinion of shuffle masters blackjack shuffle machines and I have absolutely no proof of anything I said being factual.

I have noticed when shuffle master comes to repair their shitty machines that break down constantly, misread, misdeal, lose cards, eat cards, count too many or too little cards and generally see more of a red light in their lifetime than they ever do a green light. Not sure of the accuracy because itís kept quite hush hush at our casino but my understanding is the shuffle machines are leased monthly by the casino, they cannot be owned. The magic number I heard repeatedly was $30,000 a month per machine? No idea the factuality behind this but I heard the same number 10s of times over the 7 years there.

Now rather itís this particular casinos protocol or protocol put in place by shuffle master I canít say for fact but it doesnít take a genius to realize the protocols are not at all convenient for the casino, nor the players. Iíll just give a few scenarios. Shuffle master blackjack game is being a typical piece of shit. Floor has stopped game 3-4 times this morning had to count 6 decks repeatedly to make sure I havenít added a extra 6 of hearts of the shoe. During this time I can hand shuffle which takes me maybe 30 seconds to riffle 6 decks 2 times meanwhile it takes the shuffle master somewhere around 3-4 mins if it can even accomplish that without mistake. Now instead of just having the dealer hand shuffle the rest of the day and leaving the piece of shit be till shuffle master comes out they ALWAYS replace a shuffle machine with another shuffle machine.

Problem is even the highest level management cannot move a shuffle master machine from another pit or even a storage room without being chapparonned by a shuffle master employee which is only present once or twice a week and no shuffle master machine is ever present on a casino floor without being attached to a game. So they take a shuffle machine from either a closed down game and replace it with a shuffler from a empty table or they will even remove a working shuffler from a live low limit game to put replace the broken shuffler on a high limit game. Shuffle master comes about once a week and then the broken shuffler can be removed from the game and placed on a cart where the shift manager and the shuffler master tech both walk it to some undisclosed location inside the casino to be repaired. Basically, shuffle master never leaves their shufflers unaccompanied not even with the highest clearance casino employees and not even with surveillance recording every move.

Thereís lots of details Iím excluding about the machines mainly cuz I could ramble on for hours about the red flags I see like the shufflers functions, shuffle master in poker rooms despite the steep price tag and how depressing it is dealing on these shufflers for the players and dealers alike. On a good day itís nothing for me to drop 1500 in tips on a 25 dollar hand shuffle table but machine shuffle I would regularly walk away with less than 20 dollars in the toke box and a migraine from the players bitching and whining all day about losing non stop ( and rightfully so.)
racquet
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April 26th, 2020 at 9:07:00 AM permalink
In all of the above I'm drawn to the statement that the machine uses "non-card clumping technology". That sounds to me like TC=0, all the time. Hmm...

A true count of zero results in the game being in a condition that produces results that match the inherent house edge of the game, does it not? A true count that is not currently equal to zero can only happen if some kind of "card clumping" occurs - in either the house's favor or the player's, but clumped either way.

The machine cannot predict player decisions, and those decisions will cause fluctuation in the TC, but who has done the research to determine if a shoe coming out of the gate as "declumped" as possible is more advantageous to the house than one that might be impacted by the previous shoe, plus or minus the random and unprogrammable actions of a human dealer going back over the last several shuffles?

Everything else above sounds like ShuffleMaster's business wisdom in keeping its machines under their own supervision as much as possible. This allows them to pad their payroll with technical and supervisory personnel, to tout their watchfulness of their product to insure consistency, and probably to inflate the lease charges because they appear to be so hands-on.

Anecdotal or mythological stories about the machines are no different than the usual "expert" explanations you here all the time - whether it's sitting out a hand to "change up the cards" or "87% of the time the dealer wins the first hand."

But guaranteed "non-card-clumping technology" by a machine that we know counts cards when shuffling so as to insure they're all there? Hmm...
TDVegas
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April 26th, 2020 at 9:23:43 AM permalink
I think the cost was addressed previously. There's no way in hell they are charging $30,000/month for these machines. It's not even in the ballpark.
BleedingChipsSlowly
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April 26th, 2020 at 9:41:04 AM permalink
Welcome to the forum. The theories you stated and many more have been kicked about here over the years, but I appreciate hearing about your first hand experiences.

I think racquet's explanation about the tight physical control of shufflers is valid. Shufflemaster is accountable for machine performance. Since the machines, as you mention, are only installed on tables in use we can assume they are always under surveillance there. To ensure there is no rogue firmware chip installations done in transport it makes perfect sense to have a Shufflemaster tech escort the machines.

It also makes perfect sense to repair machines someplace other than the gaming floor. The sideshow would be an unwelcome distraction. A shop set up for the work would have the tools needed to get the job done faster, without a crowd gawking while the work is done.

I have heard the machines are capable of sorting a collection of decks into the "factory default" order. That would certainly help in certifying the shoe composition, but yes, it also invites speculation as to what other orders could be programmed. Again I agree with racquet's comments about the difficulty of establishing a card order that favors the casino. Beyond that, if there were some way to truly increase the house edge, revealing that is happening would be devastating for both the casino and Shufflemaster. It would take too much collusion to pull off, and as an old Spanish proverb says, "Three men can keep a secret if one of them is dead."

Increasing the house hold is far easier to do by changing the game in transparent ways; that continues to be done. Stadium style play for the bottom limit tables is a far more efficient way to separate low-bankroll players form their money, if you can even call it a blackjack game. 6/5 blackjack payouts take care of upping the hold for mid-limit tables. Those seeking the good rules but sitting down with less that 60 units of bankroll at high limit tables will usually be eaten alive by variance.
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billryan
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April 26th, 2020 at 9:45:48 AM permalink
I'd look into the Chinese connection. At the end of the day, it always goes back to Chyna.
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21forme
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April 26th, 2020 at 2:11:51 PM permalink
OP, are you referring to an ASM or CSM?
onenickelmiracle
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April 26th, 2020 at 2:38:21 PM permalink
Of course I'm just neutral reading your entire post, not judging, but wondering if there is some conspiracy or loophole being exploited in the process. Certain things do seem to be strange, how the casinos tend to be so protective of a machine, and how much it costs. Of course the cost is unknown, and the justification to pay so much would be prohibitive and unusual. If there was anything not unusual going on, your tips shouldn't be so noticeable. They should be very similar I would assume, and actually an automatic shuffler should leave you with more tips, because you're dealing more hands. So the implication is, you're getting more tips because people get luckier on good runs, increasing bets, and feel like sharing, but on automatic shufflers, it's very boring and predictable, people never feel the exception. Yet, it depends if there are a lot of other dealers experiencing the same things, they should be if something nefarious is going on. The amount of people not seeing this, and laughing it off, are too numerous. Unless they're somehow paid to make these comments, to outnumber the people expressing their realities, it doesn't make sense. If the tips were consistent, there would be more people saying just what you're saying, doesn't seem to be the case.
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Zcore13
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Johnzimbo
April 26th, 2020 at 3:53:34 PM permalink
Almost everything you say is ridiculous and false.
Anti-clumping means the cards are shuffled enough so that the previous deal doesn't leave clumps of the same cards in the same order.

Shufflers cost a few hundred a month, depending on the model, not $30,000.

The movement of shufflers with or without chaperones is totally a casino decision. I remove shuffler from tables and replace them at will where I work with nobody with me.

The comment on you commonly getting $1500 on a hand shuffle and $25 on a machine shuffle game is laughable.

Sad that you've dealt for 7 years and never chosen to read or learn about the details of your chosen profession.


ZCore13


Quote: sara312777

Hi Iím new here so not sure if this topic has been exhausted before or not. I will start with that I cannot speak for all casinos, only the ones I have worked at and frequented and then tell you some hear-say information and some information I have gathered myself from observing the protocols of employees working for shuffle master when they enter the casino. Iíll try and get straight to it.

It took me about 2 years of dealing on shuffle master shufflers to figure out how they were getting such a seemingly large advantage. Of course Iíve heard it all from players on how the casino is cheating, most of the ideas are outrageous and include collusion on multiple levels. Logically I knew something was off but how can it be done without predicting a players behavior, the amount of hands, players in and out, where the shoe was cut, etc. Simple, shuffle master uses card counting to always keep the count in the casinos favor without ever counting anything at all. A blackjack starts in a 0 count and ends in a 0 count if no mistakes are made and every card is dealt. A count of 0 is always in the casinos favor and is achievable just by.. well letís just use shuffle masters own personal description of their product ďnon card clumping technology.Ē For example the cards come out in a way that always cancel eachother out regardless of play, hands, or where the deck is cut. (high high high low low neutral neutral high low low) (low high low high high high low low low high.) This is just my personal opinion of shuffle masters blackjack shuffle machines and I have absolutely no proof of anything I said being factual.

I have noticed when shuffle master comes to repair their shitty machines that break down constantly, misread, misdeal, lose cards, eat cards, count too many or too little cards and generally see more of a red light in their lifetime than they ever do a green light. Not sure of the accuracy because itís kept quite hush hush at our casino but my understanding is the shuffle machines are leased monthly by the casino, they cannot be owned. The magic number I heard repeatedly was $30,000 a month per machine? No idea the factuality behind this but I heard the same number 10s of times over the 7 years there.

Now rather itís this particular casinos protocol or protocol put in place by shuffle master I canít say for fact but it doesnít take a genius to realize the protocols are not at all convenient for the casino, nor the players. Iíll just give a few scenarios. Shuffle master blackjack game is being a typical piece of shit. Floor has stopped game 3-4 times this morning had to count 6 decks repeatedly to make sure I havenít added a extra 6 of hearts of the shoe. During this time I can hand shuffle which takes me maybe 30 seconds to riffle 6 decks 2 times meanwhile it takes the shuffle master somewhere around 3-4 mins if it can even accomplish that without mistake. Now instead of just having the dealer hand shuffle the rest of the day and leaving the piece of shit be till shuffle master comes out they ALWAYS replace a shuffle machine with another shuffle machine.

Problem is even the highest level management cannot move a shuffle master machine from another pit or even a storage room without being chapparonned by a shuffle master employee which is only present once or twice a week and no shuffle master machine is ever present on a casino floor without being attached to a game. So they take a shuffle machine from either a closed down game and replace it with a shuffler from a empty table or they will even remove a working shuffler from a live low limit game to put replace the broken shuffler on a high limit game. Shuffle master comes about once a week and then the broken shuffler can be removed from the game and placed on a cart where the shift manager and the shuffler master tech both walk it to some undisclosed location inside the casino to be repaired. Basically, shuffle master never leaves their shufflers unaccompanied not even with the highest clearance casino employees and not even with surveillance recording every move.

Thereís lots of details Iím excluding about the machines mainly cuz I could ramble on for hours about the red flags I see like the shufflers functions, shuffle master in poker rooms despite the steep price tag and how depressing it is dealing on these shufflers for the players and dealers alike. On a good day itís nothing for me to drop 1500 in tips on a 25 dollar hand shuffle table but machine shuffle I would regularly walk away with less than 20 dollars in the toke box and a migraine from the players bitching and whining all day about losing non stop ( and rightfully so.)

I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
AZDuffman
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April 26th, 2020 at 5:13:49 PM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

I think the cost was addressed previously. There's no way in hell they are charging $30,000/month for these machines. It's not even in the ballpark.



Over the years I have heard $600-1000 from dealers I have known or supervisors I have chatted up. I believe the range considering that this would include servicing.
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Zcore13
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April 26th, 2020 at 5:24:39 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Over the years I have heard $600-1000 from dealers I have known or supervisors I have chatted up. I believe the range considering that this would include servicing.



Blackjack shufflers are not that high and service is always included. Single deck shufflers programmed to deal multiple games can be up to $1,000 for some casinos.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
TomG
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April 26th, 2020 at 5:48:26 PM permalink
Quote: sara312777

Hi Iím new here so not sure if this topic has been exhausted before or not. I will start with that I cannot speak for all casinos, only the ones I have worked at and frequented and then tell you some hear-say information and some information I have gathered myself from observing the protocols of employees working for shuffle master when they enter the casino. Iíll try and get straight to it.



Your opinions are very well thought out and are supported by very strong evidence. There is really no way the claims you make can be dismissed. I am going to take this new information and use it accordingly.
Zcore13
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April 26th, 2020 at 6:46:41 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

Your opinions are very well thought out and are supported by very strong evidence. There is really no way the claims you make can be dismissed. I am going to take this new information and use it accordingly.




ZCore13

I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
gordonm888
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April 26th, 2020 at 11:22:07 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Almost everything you say is ridiculous and false.
Anti-clumping means the cards are shuffled enough so that the previous deal doesn't leave clumps of the same cards in the same order.



But OP said
Quote: sara312777

A count of 0 is always in the casinos favor and is achievable just by.. well letís just use shuffle masters own personal description of their product ďnon card clumping technology.Ē For example the cards come out in a way that always cancel eachother out regardless of play, hands, or where the deck is cut. (high high high low low neutral neutral high low low) (low high low high high high low low low high.)



So, Sara seems to be quoting shufflemaster's own description of the non-card clumping technology. The shuffler device certainly has the technological capability to continuously assure that the current card being dealt keeps the last 12 cards dealt at a true count of zero if its software was programmed that way.. That sounds a hell of a lot more like "non-card clumping technology" than merely shuffling the deck 7 times or whatever is needed. Because shuffling a stack of cards n times is not a "technology" -it is merely a number put into the software.
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jjjoooggg
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April 27th, 2020 at 2:14:43 AM permalink
A zero count wouldn't create more losers. It would only stop counters from spreading their bets. There has to be more going on if people are losing more.
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DJTeddyBear
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April 27th, 2020 at 9:06:07 AM permalink
$30,000 per month? Sure. If you're talking about the total for all the machines in the casino.

The number I heard was more like $500 per month per machine.

For the record, when I was at G2E last year, I saw the new generation of ShuffleMaster machines. The new model 8 deck shuffler was operating without covers so you could see how it works. It included occasional/random half turns, which effectively eliminates any possibility of edge sorting. The selling price was $40,000. I didn't ask what the lease price was. Frankly, I think the $40K was artificially high to discourage purchases.


In the past, at Sands in PA, I'd seen floormen take shufflers out of poker tables, then replace them with a unit from a closed table, and once saw an open CSM machine on the casino floor, being serviced by a guy wearing a ShuffleMaster logo shirt (the onlookers wouldn't spend more than a few seconds before moving on).
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racquet
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April 27th, 2020 at 9:27:00 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Anti-clumping means the cards are shuffled enough so that the previous deal doesn't leave clumps of the same cards in the same order.
ZCore13



That sounds like what I was saying.

Shuffling by hand, or even a machine simply mixing the cards in a totally random manner, implies that "clumps" of high-value or low-value cards could be present in the deck. Washing the cards at the beginning of the day or shuffling them a thousand times between shoes, randomly, again, means that, by ACCIDENT, UNINTENTIONALLY, some uneven distribution of the cards could occur. No guarantee, either way. That's PRECISELY why card counting works.

Any method that looks to the sequence of the cards and only allows a sequence that it prefers, whatever that sequence is, by definition, not random.

We can all count through a single deck when practicing, and easily see situations where the deck has a very high or very low TC. Who doesn't recall a practice session where the deck got to be +8 or -5. When that happens to me I wonder if my mental count is wrong, and if I need to practice more. Everybody remembers "that time" when five blackjacks were dealt in a row, or when they themselves got four in a row. All of these things happened because the condition of the deck was truly random.

Imagine if a six deck shoe were only allowed to be given to the dealer if the TC in that ENTIRE shoe never went above +1. Regardless of where the cut card went when it was placed in the deck by a player, regardless of how many cards each player took or not, for the ENTIRE deck, the count never exceeded +1,

The cut card would not matter, Player decisions would not matter. Penetration would not matter. The count is NEVER going to go over +1. Deal the deck down to the very last card, and the count is never going to go above +1.

What casino would not want to deal that game? If the dealer took the deck and started looking at the cards, face up, to pre-load a shoe that way, would it be ok? But if the machine next to that dealer does the same exact thing, and if the company renting the machine called it "de-clumping technology"...
KevinAA
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Zcore13
April 28th, 2020 at 2:14:24 PM permalink
While I am a BJ dealer, my spouse was a pit boss and is now a CSM. My spouse wants to respond as follows:

First the Shuffle Master's are not $30,000 a month. Depending on the model, they range from $700 to $800 per month, unlimited shuffles; service included. Some are cheaper, namely your back-up machines as they are charged on a per shuffle basis when used.

If a machine breaks down, one is swapped out from a closed table or with a loaner. This is done right on the floor, in view of the dealer and guests. Extra's are kept in a locked cupboard in the pit, usually the podium, and taken out as necessary. Every week someone from Shuffle Master comes to the casino and repairs any machines that need it and cleans every other machine. This is done right in the pit, at a closed table.

It is true there is a mode where you can have the machine sort the cards back into original order. In 3 years I have seen it used once, where it was thought either a dealer or player was palming cards. That feature is turned off as a rule, with the only feature enabled is a confirmation that the correct number of cards are being used.

Finally if you are doing a proper hand shuffle, there is no way you can shuffle 6 decks in 20 seconds or so. Each of the 6 decks would take at least 10 seconds, meaning you are needing at least 1 minute. Even that is a bit quick.
racquet
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April 28th, 2020 at 3:08:54 PM permalink
Quote: KevinAA

...with the only feature enabled is a confirmation that the correct number of cards are being used.



Is there a "declumping" feature that also can be enabled or not, or are there just the two you mention: sort into card order and confirm the proper number of cards?

Does "correct number of cards" mean just count to 312 or 416, without verifying that that there are the right number of each denomination?

I've seen a dealer call out "I got a red light" when the machine indicates a problem, and I've seen cards stuck in the machine when he pulls the decks out. What does the red light signal?
Zcore13
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TDVegasEdCollins
April 28th, 2020 at 3:30:36 PM permalink
Quote: racquet

Is there a "declumping" feature that also can be enabled or not, or are there just the two you mention: sort into card order and confirm the proper number of cards?

Does "correct number of cards" mean just count to 312 or 416, without verifying that that there are the right number of each denomination?

I've seen a dealer call out "I got a red light" when the machine indicates a problem, and I've seen cards stuck in the machine when he pulls the decks out. What does the red light signal?



There is no such thing as a de-clumping feature. Posts like the one the original posted posted show up here every couple of months. Usually the poster then disappears without even replying. I'm guessing many are from the same person.

The shufflers don't purposely put cards in any order unless they are set on the new deck order setting. When this happens the machine lights up and blinks showing it is in that mode.

They don't deal out cards in any way that gives any player or the dealer an advantage.

The shuffler does not know how many players are playing or how many hands a single player is playing.

There is no setting that can make the house win more than any other time.

There is no secret switch or chip that has to be hidden from the public. Machines are not guarded or hidden from public view when being cleaned or maintained unless the casino has a special place to do this. Most casinos have them done on an empty table.

There probably a dozen more things I could say. but they relate to machines are not ways to cheat and every machines software has multiple security checks between manufacturing and hitting a casino, including 3rd party software/hardware review with verification and digital signatures to stop tampering.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
AceCrAAckers
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April 28th, 2020 at 3:48:33 PM permalink
At the pai gow table, with a shuffle machine and rng that is electronic, I have seen the dealer win way more than statically realistic. I will grant that the sample size is small, but in over a hour of hands played, the dealer always had at least a joker or an ace.

I have mentioned this to the dealers there and they tend to agree that the house has more than their share of good hands. This place does not let players bank.

If everything is random, why not use dice to determine who gets the first hand?

Even when the casino is packed, and many players are on the baccarat tables, the pai gow tables are empty, or just one or two players.

I have never heard a good reason for rng and not using dice?
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heatmap
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April 28th, 2020 at 3:50:30 PM permalink
Quote: sara312777

no mistakes are made and every card is dealt.


Thereís lots of details Iím excluding about the machines mainly cuz I could ramble on for hours about the red flags I see like the shufflers functions, shuffle master in poker rooms despite the steep price tag and how depressing it is dealing on these shufflers for the players and dealers alike. On a good day itís nothing for me to drop 1500 in tips on a 25 dollar hand shuffle table but machine shuffle I would regularly walk away with less than 20 dollars in the toke box and a migraine from the players bitching and whining all day about losing non stop ( and rightfully so.)



These two things ring a bell with me. When playing blackjack- Iíll attempt to redefine your perfect play comment - you can NOT do whatís called defection. The game is meant to be played a specific way. IMO this is why surrendering is not legal in specific places.

When you say play perfect, donít forget that there is always a backup card for the dealer which is usually one more than your total. If you defect in a way that is against basic strategy and you let the game play out ďanotherĒ way, you will be punished by losing.

When there is a double on board for you or another player such as 11 or 10 and the dealer has a 6 showing, had that person not doubled the dealer would have bust but instead the dealer pulls a miraculous 21 to kill the table and you now pushed.


I could go on I believe the words you say but IMO only the two things that I quoted are the things I agree with but I see this completely different.
Zcore13
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April 28th, 2020 at 4:00:57 PM permalink
Quote: AceCrAAckers

At the pai gow table, with a shuffle machine and rng that is electronic, I have seen the dealer win way more than statically realistic. I will grant that the sample size is small, but in over a hour of hands played, the dealer always had at least a joker or an ace.

I have mentioned this to the dealers there and they tend to agree that the house has more than their share of good hands. This place does not let players bank.

If everything is random, why not use dice to determine who gets the first hand?

Even when the casino is packed, and many players are on the baccarat tables, the pai gow tables are empty, or just one or two players.

I have never heard a good reason for rng and not using dice?



I good reason to not use dice in Ca and Az and I'm sure in others, is that using dice is illegal. I'll save my breath on your analysis and poor recollection skills of the 100% result of dealer getting an Ace or Joker.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
heatmap
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April 28th, 2020 at 4:10:10 PM permalink
I should mention Iíve been almost kicked out of sands Bethlehem for accusing the blackjack machines of cheating. The basic answer I got was that there is no way to enforce a house edge and random is random and it doesnít have any type of limiting percentage on it or way to make sure itís not performing in any way. Thatís what random is. It can be bad it can be good. Thatís why itís random. But once again Iím on your side I truly believe these things are ďriggedĒ as they say... the problem is that there is nothing legally that says they canít rig the decks, but the procedures to keep people from rigging them are rigorous...
BedWetterBetter
BedWetterBetter
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April 28th, 2020 at 7:08:26 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

I should mention Iíve been almost kicked out of sands Bethlehem for accusing the blackjack machines of cheating.



Sands PA is one of the strictest casinos I've ever been to when it comes to prohibitive actions against "verbal threats" or accusatory statements. Had a guy get ejected from a table because he called another a 'Jackass' for doubling A-9 against dealer 6, when the table kindly asked him not to. The one who doubled and ended up pushing while the rest lost was telling them he felt "unsafe" after being threatened.

So I wouldn't say you were on to them by proclaiming things were rigged, they just don't want people arguing and potentially fighting over nothing.
michael99000
michael99000
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April 28th, 2020 at 7:38:01 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

I should mention Iíve been almost kicked out of sands Bethlehem for accusing the blackjack machines of cheating. The basic answer I got was that there is no way to enforce a house edge and random is random and it doesnít have any type of limiting percentage on it or way to make sure itís not performing in any way. Thatís what random is. It can be bad it can be good. Thatís why itís random. But once again Iím on your side I truly believe these things are ďriggedĒ as they say... the problem is that there is nothing legally that says they canít rig the decks, but the procedures to keep people from rigging them are rigorous...



How do the shufflers at Sands know where the player will cut the cards at the start ?

And how does the shuffler account for the relief dealer coming in and burning a card at some random point ?
heatmap
heatmap
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April 28th, 2020 at 7:54:29 PM permalink
Quote: michael99000

How do the shufflers at Sands know where the player will cut the cards at the start ?

And how does the shuffler account for the relief dealer coming in and burning a card at some random point ?



The ďrandom walksĒ are cyclical.
heatmap
heatmap
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April 28th, 2020 at 8:03:25 PM permalink
Quote: BedWetterBetter

Sands PA is one of the strictest casinos I've ever been to when it comes to prohibitive actions against "verbal threats" or accusatory statements. Had a guy get ejected from a table because he called another a 'Jackass' for doubling A-9 against dealer 6, when the table kindly asked him not to. The one who doubled and ended up pushing while the rest lost was telling them he felt "unsafe" after being threatened.

So I wouldn't say you were on to them by proclaiming things were rigged, they just don't want people arguing and potentially fighting over nothing.



Never claimed I was on to them

There isnít on to them random is random and thatís anything and everything

Letís just say Iím lucky because of the people I know. There is a 50 50 split about the employees who work there who like me and ones who donít. The only reason I wasnít kicked out permanently is because the lady who wanted me out was about to end her shift, and the guy who was supposed to add me to the system saw how much money I had spent and the time I put into the place was not worth them kicking me out IMO. I also was very calm about the whole situation and said ďyou can kick me out but all that I asked was one question and that was if there was some kind of statistical test that was applied to the machinesĒ and they specifically told me that there was not any statistical test applied and answered my question ( they still wanted me thrown out even after answering my question)

Iíve almost had this happen when I accused the roulette tables of cheating too. The same lady handled the situation and remembered me when I approached with the blackjack question.

She said ď this is unhealthy we need to ban this person ď
BedWetterBetter
BedWetterBetter
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April 28th, 2020 at 8:11:10 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Never claimed I was on to them

There isnít on to them random is random and thatís anything and everything

Letís just say Iím lucky because of the people I know. There is a 50 50 split about the employees who work there who like me and ones who donít. The only reason I wasnít kicked out permanently is because the lady who wanted me out was about to end her shift, and the guy who was supposed to add me to the system saw how much money I had spent and the time I put into the place was not worth them kicking me out IMO. I also was very calm about the whole situation and said ďyou can kick me out but all that I asked was one question and that was if there was some kind of statistical test that was applied to the machinesĒ and they specifically told me that there was not any statistical test applied and answered my question ( they still wanted me thrown out even after answering my question)

Iíve almost had this happen when I accused the roulette tables of cheating too. The same lady handled the situation and remembered me when I approached with the blackjack question.

She said ď this is unhealthy we need to ban this person ď



Sheesh, and I thought AC dealers were salty and uptight. Even though I haven't been to Sands since the name change to Wind Creek, I remember most BJ dealers having a sense of humor.

The floor personnel are another story, they are some of the saddest and most bitter people I've dealt with. I remember many times where they shorted somebody on a payout and I would speak up and point out their mistake, only to be told by pit bosses to 'mind my own business' or "we'll deal with it, we don't need YOUR help!"

As if I did something wrong by pointing out the error?
michael99000
michael99000
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heatmapForager
April 28th, 2020 at 8:18:27 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

The ďrandom walksĒ are cyclical.



So do you think thereís a management level person in the employee breakroom , who knows how long it takes each dealer , based on their walking speed , to get to their BJ table? And someone from the table cues them when the dealer should begin walking so that they arrive at the table and burn the card at a precise point where the prerigged cards need it to happen?
heatmap
heatmap
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April 28th, 2020 at 8:28:11 PM permalink
Quote: BedWetterBetter

Sheesh, and I thought AC dealers were salty and uptight. Even though I haven't been to Sands since the name change to Wind Creek, I remember most BJ dealers having a sense of humor.

The floor personnel are another story, they are some of the saddest and most bitter people I've dealt with. I remember many times where they shorted somebody on a payout and I would speak up and point out their mistake, only to be told by pit bosses to 'mind my own business' or "we'll deal with it, we don't need YOUR help!"

As if I did something wrong by pointing out the error?



No this had nothing to do with floor personnel this started when I got sick of the stadium blackjack people yelling that it was rigged. This was completely on me I know where the gaming control board is and I like to bother them. I see the same patterns in the stadium as I do at the tables. And people kept yelling itís rigged. So I went and asked that question. The person who took my question had no clue. Went to get her boss and thatís the unlucky part. She just so happened to be the last lady to take my complaint about the roulette wheels. Got lucky when I was able to get the other security gaurd alone and calmly explain why I was there. All he cared about was if someone else complained about me and if I was bothering people and I wasnít so he threw me out for the day and I never have gone back since.
mcallister3200
mcallister3200
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April 28th, 2020 at 8:50:32 PM permalink
Quote: BedWetterBetter

Sands PA is one of the strictest casinos I've ever been to when it comes to prohibitive actions against "verbal threats" or accusatory statements. Had a guy get ejected from a table because he called another a 'Jackass' for doubling A-9 against dealer 6, when the table kindly asked him not to. The one who doubled and ended up pushing while the rest lost was telling them he felt "unsafe" after being threatened.
.



Was the true count +6 or higher?
heatmap
heatmap
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April 28th, 2020 at 9:15:28 PM permalink
Quote: BedWetterBetter

Sands PA is one of the strictest casinos I've ever been to when it comes to prohibitive actions against "verbal threats" or accusatory statements. Had a guy get ejected from a table because he called another a 'Jackass' for doubling A-9 against dealer 6, when the table kindly asked him not to. The one who doubled and ended up pushing while the rest lost was telling them he felt "unsafe" after being threatened.



Prisoners dilemma. Defection was equal to ďtalkingĒ aka hitting in this case when he shouldnít have. This is what I speak about in my other comment. This is all my opinion. If you describe the entire layout of the next card dealt to the first person in the next round I may be able to elaborate more of what I mean... can you recall the entire sequence of the cards possibly?
TDVegas
TDVegas
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April 28th, 2020 at 10:55:39 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

But once again Iím on your side I truly believe these things are ďriggedĒ as they say... the problem is that there is nothing legally that says they canít rig the decks, but the procedures to keep people from rigging them are rigorous...


Of course this is covered in any state gaming law.

This is akin to people claiming there is nothing that says biased dice canít be used....therefore it can.

Gaming laws address random, random outcomes, as it relates to any game where dice or cards are to adhere to this.

These are felonies with prison time.
racquet
racquet
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April 29th, 2020 at 6:29:49 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

There is no such thing as a de-clumping feature.



That's the only thing that matters in this whole wide-ranging discussion. The OP says that the company markets such a feature, you say that there isn't one.

I have never seen even a single piece of Shufflemaster marketing material. I've never seen the inside of one of the machines, or any manual that describes any settings, switches, options or controls that prove that there is, or is not, even a single option.

Whatever other options exist, a "New deck order" or an option that just makes sure that there are the proper NUMBER of cards in the deck without regard to denomination, are irrelevant.

Comments about what we've seen, number of players or hands, whether someone hits or stands? Also irrelevant.

Where are the mathaholics on this forum? Rather than a machine doing it, assume that you had the ability to arrange a deck of 52 cards in a pre-detemined sequence such that a) the deck is rigged so that the true count over the course of play is to the GREATEST advantage to the player b) to the WORST benefit of the player c) to the MOST NEUTRAL benefit to neither player or house.

Assuming that there are such arrangements, and there must be if the theory of card counting is a good one, then the only issue is whether or not a machine used to shuffle cards can be programmed to insure one of them.

So who knows enough about the machine to say? So far we have two opinions about it. One poster says "yes there is" and one other poster says "no there is not."
Zcore13
Zcore13 
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EdCollins
April 29th, 2020 at 6:58:06 AM permalink
Quote: racquet


So who knows enough about the machine to say? So far we have two opinions about it. One poster says "yes there is" and one other poster says "no there is not."



Except there's one major difference between the original poster and myself. He posted anonymously. with no facts, hearsay and has never returned.

I am a former Director of Table Games, I've been here 11 years and many people know exactly who I am and some have met me in person.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
heatmap
heatmap
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April 29th, 2020 at 11:31:17 AM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

Of course this is covered in any state gaming law.

This is akin to people claiming there is nothing that says biased dice canít be used....therefore it can.



I do not doubt your statement. But the only random laws pertaining to outcomes at least that I have seen only pertain to slot machines. I live in Pennsylvania and their laws are apparently very detailed as opposed to normal gaming laws that I have tried to read in other states. I will say again I have gone to the extremes to get the information I want and did not go into the gaming control board unprepared. Our gaming laws are very clear, and the gaming control board lady was very ďflusteredĒ because I knew the exact laws and what they say and she knew I knew what I was talking about. She was so flustered I knew she wasnít lying to me because she wanted me the eff out of there so I could stop bothering these people about rigged gaming equipment. I believed her truly when she said that the shufflers are not held to any percentage performance. She was also the one who ordered the shuffling machines. She also claimed she could open any of the machines at any time and gather the stats out of it and check whatever the outputs and stats if she wanted to but she wasnít going to because what I claimed was not happening.

Just show me a law pertaining to the legality and laws that claim anything about shuffler and what itís supposed to do and what itís not supposed to do.

And if something is illegal they make sure itís illegal and codify it somehow. When a businessman wants to do something they consult their lawyer and say ď is this illegal to doĒ and if itís not people will do that thing I donít care how dumb or not real this example is but most of the time people do things if their illegal or not. If itís not illegal they do it. I donít know if you realize but at the top of GLIs website it states that the standards donít apply unless the jurisdiction where the gaming is happening adopts the standards and if those standards are not legally codified you can almost surely compare the lists and see what states you can actually do the things they say not to do.
racquet
racquet
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April 29th, 2020 at 7:29:36 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Except there's one major difference between the original poster and myself. He posted anonymously. with no facts, hearsay and has never returned.
I am a former Director of Table Games, I've been here 11 years and many people know exactly who I am and some have met me in person.
ZCore13



We've never met, but I've read a lot of your posts and think that you provide a lot of insight into the business and tell it like it is, looking from the inside. I'd accept your version of "the way it is" before a one-time poster who hits and runs.

So, tell us...

Is "declumping technology" built into the machines, is it just a marketing gimmick on the part of the manufacturer that makes them, or is the whole idea just myth and legend like so many of the lunatic pronouncements of players?

Are there versions or levels of machine, some with features, others with fewer?

I have no idea about these machines. Is there only one company that makes them? Is there a ShuffleMaster 3.1, a Shufflemaster 95, and a Shufflemaster 365?

Are there dip-switches or toggles inside the machine for various setups? Is "declumping" one of the toggles?

Can the same machine handle six-deck and eight-deck games? Can the same machine deal with a Spanish 21 deck?

I've never been one to think that there are conspiracies out there on the part of the casinos to take our money. They run a bunch of games that are statistically guaranteed to win. They don't need to cheat. If they get to greedy, they install CSMs and offer 6:5 blackjack. Perfectly "honest" enhancements to the game.

So my impression is that "declumping technology" doesn't exist. But then again...
michael99000
michael99000
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April 29th, 2020 at 7:51:06 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Except there's one major difference between the original poster and myself. He posted anonymously. with no facts, hearsay and has never returned.

I am a former Director of Table Games, I've been here 11 years and many people know exactly who I am and some have met me in person.


ZCore13



Iím not saying you arenít honest.

But how much weight should your posts about these kinda things carry? Letís pretend for a second that there was some type of cheating or rigging in these shufflers , and that you knew about it.

Are you really gonna disclose that knowledge on a message board ?

So the point Iím making is , no matter whatís really happening, youíre going to say exactly what youíve been saying.
Zcore13
Zcore13 
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April 29th, 2020 at 8:23:52 PM permalink
Quote: racquet

We've never met, but I've read a lot of your posts and think that you provide a lot of insight into the business and tell it like it is, looking from the inside. I'd accept your version of "the way it is" before a one-time poster who hits and runs.

So, tell us...

Is "declumping technology" built into the machines, is it just a marketing gimmick on the part of the manufacturer that makes them, or is the whole idea just myth and legend like so many of the lunatic pronouncements of players?

Are there versions or levels of machine, some with features, others with fewer?

I have no idea about these machines. Is there only one company that makes them? Is there a ShuffleMaster 3.1, a Shufflemaster 95, and a Shufflemaster 365?

Are there dip-switches or toggles inside the machine for various setups? Is "declumping" one of the toggles?

Can the same machine handle six-deck and eight-deck games? Can the same machine deal with a Spanish 21 deck?

I've never been one to think that there are conspiracies out there on the part of the casinos to take our money. They run a bunch of games that are statistically guaranteed to win. They don't need to cheat. If they get to greedy, they install CSMs and offer 6:5 blackjack. Perfectly "honest" enhancements to the game.

So my impression is that "declumping technology" doesn't exist. But then again...



The term de-clumping is meant to imply that shuffle tracking can't be done. That is clumps of cards that just gone done being played, show up in the same order in the next shoe. The de-clumping it does is randomly shuffle the cards enough times that no group of cards will remain the exact same as they were. There is no level of settings or machine model that can put the cards in any winning/losing combination or order.

Shuffle Master dominates the market. 99.9% of table games machines are Shuffle Master. Maybe 95% of poker shufflers are Shuffle Master. Shufflemaster comes out with newer and faster technology every so often. 5-10 years maybe? For multiple deck shufflers, there's the oldest MD!, newer MD-2 and most recent MD-3. For single deck games there's the iDeal. It gets software and hardware updates as well. The most recent I recall is putting a screen facing the players to show the random number generating when dealing Pai Gow Poker.

It's very easy for casinos to better there odds without cheating. At any time I could have gone to ASM's for more hands per hour, changed some games to 6-5, adjusted side bet and progressive pay tables to hold a higher percentage, increased the minimum bet or side bet amount, adjusted rules to increase house edge, etc. Most casinos dont want to kill their players though. Las Vegas is the exception, not the rule, to take money as fast as you can.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Zcore13
Zcore13 
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April 29th, 2020 at 8:24:05 PM permalink
Quote: michael99000

Iím not saying you arenít honest.

But how much weight should your posts about these kinda things carry? Letís pretend for a second that there was some type of cheating or rigging in these shufflers , and that you knew about it.

Are you really gonna disclose that knowledge on a message board ?

So the point Iím making is , no matter whatís really happening, youíre going to say exactly what youíve been saying.



Why dont you cheat at your job? Why should I trust you?

I would report any illegal activity or cheating immediately at my work. I would also report it if I knew another casino was doing it. I'm an employee of a business that happens to offer games of chance. That doesn't mean I've become some sort of corrupt mobster because I receive a paycheck every 2 weeks.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
andysif
andysif
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April 29th, 2020 at 9:12:33 PM permalink
Quote: racquet


Imagine if a six deck shoe were only allowed to be given to the dealer if the TC in that ENTIRE shoe never went above +1. Regardless of where the cut card went when it was placed in the deck by a player, regardless of how many cards each player took or not, for the ENTIRE deck, the count never exceeded +1,

The cut card would not matter, Player decisions would not matter. Penetration would not matter. The count is NEVER going to go over +1. Deal the deck down to the very last card, and the count is never going to go above +1.

What casino would not want to deal that game? If the dealer took the deck and started looking at the cards, face up, to pre-load a shoe that way, would it be ok? But if the machine next to that dealer does the same exact thing, and if the company renting the machine called it "de-clumping technology"...



if i knew the count would NEVER go over +/- 1, i may not want to hit that 3 card 12 against a dealer 6.

the point is, any information, however disadvantageous/advantageous to whoever it may seems, can be used against the casino. only truly random is good for the casino.
sabre
sabre
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April 29th, 2020 at 10:39:13 PM permalink
Quote: andysif

if i knew the count would NEVER go over +/- 1, i may not want to hit that 3 card 12 against a dealer 6.

the point is, any information, however disadvantageous/advantageous to whoever it may seems, can be used against the casino. only truly random is good for the casino.



If I knew the count would NEVER go over +/- 1 I might site at first base and occasionally put a table max bet out.
ChumpChange
ChumpChange 
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April 30th, 2020 at 7:27:07 AM permalink
I win the most with negative counts and lose the most on positive counts. I'm not wonging out.
racquet
racquet
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April 30th, 2020 at 7:38:44 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

The term de-clumping is meant to imply that shuffle tracking can't be done. That is clumps of cards that just gone done being played, show up in the same order in the next shoe. The de-clumping it does is randomly shuffle the cards enough times that no group of cards will remain the exact same as they were. There is no level of settings or machine model that can put the cards in any winning/losing combination or order.ZCore13


That does it for me.

"Declumping" means "make sure that the sequence of cards gets mixed up enough such that there's no 'clump' of cards bunched together like they were the last time", and NOT "make sure there are not a 'clump' of tens bunched together, regardless of where they were the last time."

Considering, the first kind of declumping is a purely analog activity. Just mix the cards up without any consideration as to what they are (ten, deuce, ace). A CSM shuffle is just as likely to "declump" a relatively harmless shoe into one that's not. It has no idea where the tens are.

Creating a low-variance shoe, is "digital" declumping. You'd have to keep track of the value of the cards, and sort them into some NON-RANDOM sequence where there are no bunches of cards in sequence that create an extreme TC value.

Quote: Zcore13

It's very easy for casinos to better there odds without cheating. At any time I could have gone to ASM's for more hands per hour, changed some games to 6-5, adjusted side bet and progressive pay tables to hold a higher percentage, increased the minimum bet or side bet amount, adjusted rules to increase house edge, etc. Most casinos dont want to kill their players though. Las Vegas is the exception, not the rule, to take money as fast as you can.ZCore13


The best example of that is, exactly, side bets. I've never seen one where the odds on a side bet are better than the regular game. Anyone who thinks that the side bet is a better deal would be your best customer.

I also am amazed at anyone (like a couple of posters in this very thread) who think where they sit or what they bet would be profitable at a game where the TC will never vary from -1 to +1. You should give those folks a limo ride to your door, every day.

Thanks for the reply, Zcore. Much appreciated.
SOOPOO
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April 30th, 2020 at 10:30:12 AM permalink
Quote: andysif



the point is, any information, however disadvantageous/advantageous to whoever it may seems, can be used against the casino. only truly random is good for the casino.



Not true. If the casino just eliminated all King of Spades', that will be advantageous to the casino. How would you take advantage of that knowledge?
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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April 30th, 2020 at 10:34:54 AM permalink
Quote: racquet


The best example of that is, exactly, side bets. I've never seen one where the odds on a side bet are better than the regular game. =

And yet....
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
jjjoooggg
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April 30th, 2020 at 12:07:41 PM permalink
If such a card order existed. It would be groundbreaking Answering this question would help the casinos increase the house edge without changing the rules. Not good for brainstorming
Born in Texas and lived in Texas my whole life.
Romes
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mcallister3200gordonm888
April 30th, 2020 at 2:15:25 PM permalink
At the end of the day we know pretty much all we need to know:

1) The machines are absolutely capable of identifying each individual card as they shuffle... proof of which is the machine "shuffling" the cards back in to perfect order.
2) Speaking as a programmer, given #1, ANYTHING is then possible with these cards. Whatever you want to call it... "anti-clumping" or "always keep the TC at 0" or whatever you want to call it. That is all absolutely possible...

3) If it's possible... somebody's doing it. The end.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
michael99000
michael99000
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April 30th, 2020 at 2:17:24 PM permalink
If I know a machine is keeping the count at 0 after each hand,
Then maybe I can get an advantage sitting at 3rd base of a full table.
TDVegas
TDVegas
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April 30th, 2020 at 2:32:35 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

I do not doubt your statement. But the only random laws pertaining to outcomes at least that I have seen only pertain to slot machines. I live in Pennsylvania and their laws are apparently very detailed as opposed to normal gaming laws that I have tried to read in other states. I will say again I have gone to the extremes to get the information I want and did not go into the gaming control board unprepared. Our gaming laws are very clear, and the gaming control board lady was very ďflusteredĒ because I knew the exact laws and what they say and she knew I knew what I was talking about. She was so flustered I knew she wasnít lying to me because she wanted me the eff out of there so I could stop bothering these people about rigged gaming equipment. I believed her truly when she said that the shufflers are not held to any percentage performance. She was also the one who ordered the shuffling machines. She also claimed she could open any of the machines at any time and gather the stats out of it and check whatever the outputs and stats if she wanted to but she wasnít going to because what I claimed was not happening.

Just show me a law pertaining to the legality and laws that claim anything about shuffler and what itís supposed to do and what itís not supposed to do.

And if something is illegal they make sure itís illegal and codify it somehow. When a businessman wants to do something they consult their lawyer and say ď is this illegal to doĒ and if itís not people will do that thing I donít care how dumb or not real this example is but most of the time people do things if their illegal or not. If itís not illegal they do it. I donít know if you realize but at the top of GLIs website it states that the standards donít apply unless the jurisdiction where the gaming is happening adopts the standards and if those standards are not legally codified you can almost surely compare the lists and see what states you can actually do the things they say not to do.


Doesnít get any more clear than paragraph 1.

PA Blackjack

Regulations for Blackjack begin on Pg. 608

§ 633a.5. Shuffle and cut of the cards.
Immediately prior to commencement of play, unless the cards were preshuffled in accordance with § 603a.16(u) or (v) (relating to cards; receipt, storage, inspection and removal from use), after each shoe of cards is dealt or when directed by a floorperson or above, the dealer shall shuffle the cards, either manually or by use of an automated card shuffling device, so that the cards are randomly intermixed.

(e) After the cards have been cut and before the cards have been placed in the dealing shoe, a floorperson or above may require the cards to be recut if the floorperson determines that the cut was performed improperly or in any way that might affect the integrity or fairness of the game.


(g) If there is no gaming activity at a Blackjack table which is open for gaming, the cards shall be removed from the dealing shoe and the discard rack and spread out on the table face down unless a player requests that the cards be spread face up on the table. After the first player arriving at the table is afforded an opportunity to visually inspect the cards shall be:

Mixed thoroughly by a washing of the cards, stacked, then shuffled and cut in accordance with this section, if there is no automated shuffling device in use.

(2) Stacked and placed into the automated shuffling device to be shuffled, if an automated shuffling device is in use. The batch of cards already in the shuffler shall then be removed. Unless a player requests otherwise, the batch of cards removed from the shuffler does not need to be spread for inspection and reshuffled prior to being dealt, if the automated card shuffling device stores a single batch of shuffled cards inside the shuffler in a secure manner.

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