sara312777
sara312777
Joined: Apr 26, 2020
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April 26th, 2020 at 8:39:11 AM permalink
Hi Iím new here so not sure if this topic has been exhausted before or not. I will start with that I cannot speak for all casinos, only the ones I have worked at and frequented and then tell you some hear-say information and some information I have gathered myself from observing the protocols of employees working for shuffle master when they enter the casino. Iíll try and get straight to it.

It took me about 2 years of dealing on shuffle master shufflers to figure out how they were getting such a seemingly large advantage. Of course Iíve heard it all from players on how the casino is cheating, most of the ideas are outrageous and include collusion on multiple levels. Logically I knew something was off but how can it be done without predicting a players behavior, the amount of hands, players in and out, where the shoe was cut, etc. Simple, shuffle master uses card counting to always keep the count in the casinos favor without ever counting anything at all. A blackjack starts in a 0 count and ends in a 0 count if no mistakes are made and every card is dealt. A count of 0 is always in the casinos favor and is achievable just by.. well letís just use shuffle masters own personal description of their product ďnon card clumping technology.Ē For example the cards come out in a way that always cancel eachother out regardless of play, hands, or where the deck is cut. (high high high low low neutral neutral high low low) (low high low high high high low low low high.) This is just my personal opinion of shuffle masters blackjack shuffle machines and I have absolutely no proof of anything I said being factual.

I have noticed when shuffle master comes to repair their shitty machines that break down constantly, misread, misdeal, lose cards, eat cards, count too many or too little cards and generally see more of a red light in their lifetime than they ever do a green light. Not sure of the accuracy because itís kept quite hush hush at our casino but my understanding is the shuffle machines are leased monthly by the casino, they cannot be owned. The magic number I heard repeatedly was $30,000 a month per machine? No idea the factuality behind this but I heard the same number 10s of times over the 7 years there.

Now rather itís this particular casinos protocol or protocol put in place by shuffle master I canít say for fact but it doesnít take a genius to realize the protocols are not at all convenient for the casino, nor the players. Iíll just give a few scenarios. Shuffle master blackjack game is being a typical piece of shit. Floor has stopped game 3-4 times this morning had to count 6 decks repeatedly to make sure I havenít added a extra 6 of hearts of the shoe. During this time I can hand shuffle which takes me maybe 30 seconds to riffle 6 decks 2 times meanwhile it takes the shuffle master somewhere around 3-4 mins if it can even accomplish that without mistake. Now instead of just having the dealer hand shuffle the rest of the day and leaving the piece of shit be till shuffle master comes out they ALWAYS replace a shuffle machine with another shuffle machine.

Problem is even the highest level management cannot move a shuffle master machine from another pit or even a storage room without being chapparonned by a shuffle master employee which is only present once or twice a week and no shuffle master machine is ever present on a casino floor without being attached to a game. So they take a shuffle machine from either a closed down game and replace it with a shuffler from a empty table or they will even remove a working shuffler from a live low limit game to put replace the broken shuffler on a high limit game. Shuffle master comes about once a week and then the broken shuffler can be removed from the game and placed on a cart where the shift manager and the shuffler master tech both walk it to some undisclosed location inside the casino to be repaired. Basically, shuffle master never leaves their shufflers unaccompanied not even with the highest clearance casino employees and not even with surveillance recording every move.

Thereís lots of details Iím excluding about the machines mainly cuz I could ramble on for hours about the red flags I see like the shufflers functions, shuffle master in poker rooms despite the steep price tag and how depressing it is dealing on these shufflers for the players and dealers alike. On a good day itís nothing for me to drop 1500 in tips on a 25 dollar hand shuffle table but machine shuffle I would regularly walk away with less than 20 dollars in the toke box and a migraine from the players bitching and whining all day about losing non stop ( and rightfully so.)
racquet
racquet
Joined: Dec 31, 2014
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April 26th, 2020 at 9:07:00 AM permalink
In all of the above I'm drawn to the statement that the machine uses "non-card clumping technology". That sounds to me like TC=0, all the time. Hmm...

A true count of zero results in the game being in a condition that produces results that match the inherent house edge of the game, does it not? A true count that is not currently equal to zero can only happen if some kind of "card clumping" occurs - in either the house's favor or the player's, but clumped either way.

The machine cannot predict player decisions, and those decisions will cause fluctuation in the TC, but who has done the research to determine if a shoe coming out of the gate as "declumped" as possible is more advantageous to the house than one that might be impacted by the previous shoe, plus or minus the random and unprogrammable actions of a human dealer going back over the last several shuffles?

Everything else above sounds like ShuffleMaster's business wisdom in keeping its machines under their own supervision as much as possible. This allows them to pad their payroll with technical and supervisory personnel, to tout their watchfulness of their product to insure consistency, and probably to inflate the lease charges because they appear to be so hands-on.

Anecdotal or mythological stories about the machines are no different than the usual "expert" explanations you here all the time - whether it's sitting out a hand to "change up the cards" or "87% of the time the dealer wins the first hand."

But guaranteed "non-card-clumping technology" by a machine that we know counts cards when shuffling so as to insure they're all there? Hmm...
TDVegas
TDVegas
Joined: Oct 30, 2018
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April 26th, 2020 at 9:23:43 AM permalink
I think the cost was addressed previously. There's no way in hell they are charging $30,000/month for these machines. It's not even in the ballpark.
BleedingChipsSlowly
BleedingChipsSlowly
Joined: Jul 9, 2010
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April 26th, 2020 at 9:41:04 AM permalink
Welcome to the forum. The theories you stated and many more have been kicked about here over the years, but I appreciate hearing about your first hand experiences.

I think racquet's explanation about the tight physical control of shufflers is valid. Shufflemaster is accountable for machine performance. Since the machines, as you mention, are only installed on tables in use we can assume they are always under surveillance there. To ensure there is no rogue firmware chip installations done in transport it makes perfect sense to have a Shufflemaster tech escort the machines.

It also makes perfect sense to repair machines someplace other than the gaming floor. The sideshow would be an unwelcome distraction. A shop set up for the work would have the tools needed to get the job done faster, without a crowd gawking while the work is done.

I have heard the machines are capable of sorting a collection of decks into the "factory default" order. That would certainly help in certifying the shoe composition, but yes, it also invites speculation as to what other orders could be programmed. Again I agree with racquet's comments about the difficulty of establishing a card order that favors the casino. Beyond that, if there were some way to truly increase the house edge, revealing that is happening would be devastating for both the casino and Shufflemaster. It would take too much collusion to pull off, and as an old Spanish proverb says, "Three men can keep a secret if one of them is dead."

Increasing the house hold is far easier to do by changing the game in transparent ways; that continues to be done. Stadium style play for the bottom limit tables is a far more efficient way to separate low-bankroll players form their money, if you can even call it a blackjack game. 6/5 blackjack payouts take care of upping the hold for mid-limit tables. Those seeking the good rules but sitting down with less that 60 units of bankroll at high limit tables will usually be eaten alive by variance.
ďYou donít bring a bone saw to a negotiation.Ē - Robert Jordan, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia
billryan
billryan
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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April 26th, 2020 at 9:45:48 AM permalink
I'd look into the Chinese connection. At the end of the day, it always goes back to Chyna.
21forme
21forme
Joined: Feb 27, 2011
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April 26th, 2020 at 2:11:51 PM permalink
OP, are you referring to an ASM or CSM?
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
Joined: Jan 26, 2012
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April 26th, 2020 at 2:38:21 PM permalink
Of course I'm just neutral reading your entire post, not judging, but wondering if there is some conspiracy or loophole being exploited in the process. Certain things do seem to be strange, how the casinos tend to be so protective of a machine, and how much it costs. Of course the cost is unknown, and the justification to pay so much would be prohibitive and unusual. If there was anything not unusual going on, your tips shouldn't be so noticeable. They should be very similar I would assume, and actually an automatic shuffler should leave you with more tips, because you're dealing more hands. So the implication is, you're getting more tips because people get luckier on good runs, increasing bets, and feel like sharing, but on automatic shufflers, it's very boring and predictable, people never feel the exception. Yet, it depends if there are a lot of other dealers experiencing the same things, they should be if something nefarious is going on. The amount of people not seeing this, and laughing it off, are too numerous. Unless they're somehow paid to make these comments, to outnumber the people expressing their realities, it doesn't make sense. If the tips were consistent, there would be more people saying just what you're saying, doesn't seem to be the case.
In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is the care taker. Hold my beer.
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
  • Threads: 39
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Thanks for this post from:
Johnzimbo
April 26th, 2020 at 3:53:34 PM permalink
Almost everything you say is ridiculous and false.
Anti-clumping means the cards are shuffled enough so that the previous deal doesn't leave clumps of the same cards in the same order.

Shufflers cost a few hundred a month, depending on the model, not $30,000.

The movement of shufflers with or without chaperones is totally a casino decision. I remove shuffler from tables and replace them at will where I work with nobody with me.

The comment on you commonly getting $1500 on a hand shuffle and $25 on a machine shuffle game is laughable.

Sad that you've dealt for 7 years and never chosen to read or learn about the details of your chosen profession.


ZCore13


Quote: sara312777

Hi Iím new here so not sure if this topic has been exhausted before or not. I will start with that I cannot speak for all casinos, only the ones I have worked at and frequented and then tell you some hear-say information and some information I have gathered myself from observing the protocols of employees working for shuffle master when they enter the casino. Iíll try and get straight to it.

It took me about 2 years of dealing on shuffle master shufflers to figure out how they were getting such a seemingly large advantage. Of course Iíve heard it all from players on how the casino is cheating, most of the ideas are outrageous and include collusion on multiple levels. Logically I knew something was off but how can it be done without predicting a players behavior, the amount of hands, players in and out, where the shoe was cut, etc. Simple, shuffle master uses card counting to always keep the count in the casinos favor without ever counting anything at all. A blackjack starts in a 0 count and ends in a 0 count if no mistakes are made and every card is dealt. A count of 0 is always in the casinos favor and is achievable just by.. well letís just use shuffle masters own personal description of their product ďnon card clumping technology.Ē For example the cards come out in a way that always cancel eachother out regardless of play, hands, or where the deck is cut. (high high high low low neutral neutral high low low) (low high low high high high low low low high.) This is just my personal opinion of shuffle masters blackjack shuffle machines and I have absolutely no proof of anything I said being factual.

I have noticed when shuffle master comes to repair their shitty machines that break down constantly, misread, misdeal, lose cards, eat cards, count too many or too little cards and generally see more of a red light in their lifetime than they ever do a green light. Not sure of the accuracy because itís kept quite hush hush at our casino but my understanding is the shuffle machines are leased monthly by the casino, they cannot be owned. The magic number I heard repeatedly was $30,000 a month per machine? No idea the factuality behind this but I heard the same number 10s of times over the 7 years there.

Now rather itís this particular casinos protocol or protocol put in place by shuffle master I canít say for fact but it doesnít take a genius to realize the protocols are not at all convenient for the casino, nor the players. Iíll just give a few scenarios. Shuffle master blackjack game is being a typical piece of shit. Floor has stopped game 3-4 times this morning had to count 6 decks repeatedly to make sure I havenít added a extra 6 of hearts of the shoe. During this time I can hand shuffle which takes me maybe 30 seconds to riffle 6 decks 2 times meanwhile it takes the shuffle master somewhere around 3-4 mins if it can even accomplish that without mistake. Now instead of just having the dealer hand shuffle the rest of the day and leaving the piece of shit be till shuffle master comes out they ALWAYS replace a shuffle machine with another shuffle machine.

Problem is even the highest level management cannot move a shuffle master machine from another pit or even a storage room without being chapparonned by a shuffle master employee which is only present once or twice a week and no shuffle master machine is ever present on a casino floor without being attached to a game. So they take a shuffle machine from either a closed down game and replace it with a shuffler from a empty table or they will even remove a working shuffler from a live low limit game to put replace the broken shuffler on a high limit game. Shuffle master comes about once a week and then the broken shuffler can be removed from the game and placed on a cart where the shift manager and the shuffler master tech both walk it to some undisclosed location inside the casino to be repaired. Basically, shuffle master never leaves their shufflers unaccompanied not even with the highest clearance casino employees and not even with surveillance recording every move.

Thereís lots of details Iím excluding about the machines mainly cuz I could ramble on for hours about the red flags I see like the shufflers functions, shuffle master in poker rooms despite the steep price tag and how depressing it is dealing on these shufflers for the players and dealers alike. On a good day itís nothing for me to drop 1500 in tips on a 25 dollar hand shuffle table but machine shuffle I would regularly walk away with less than 20 dollars in the toke box and a migraine from the players bitching and whining all day about losing non stop ( and rightfully so.)

I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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April 26th, 2020 at 5:13:49 PM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

I think the cost was addressed previously. There's no way in hell they are charging $30,000/month for these machines. It's not even in the ballpark.



Over the years I have heard $600-1000 from dealers I have known or supervisors I have chatted up. I believe the range considering that this would include servicing.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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  • Posts: 3548
April 26th, 2020 at 5:24:39 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Over the years I have heard $600-1000 from dealers I have known or supervisors I have chatted up. I believe the range considering that this would include servicing.



Blackjack shufflers are not that high and service is always included. Single deck shufflers programmed to deal multiple games can be up to $1,000 for some casinos.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.

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