ZenKinG
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RS
March 26th, 2018 at 9:56:35 AM permalink
Long story short, im playing heads up going from $10 and then to 2x100 at the time, didnt get to max bet yet. Im winning every single round and made around 800 with about 2 decks in as the count shot up early. New dealer comes to the game and the dealer doesnt burn a card. Keep that in mind because thats the key. The dealer deals the round and the pit boss then whispers in her ear something i couldnt hear, but i knew what was going on. Turns out because the dealer didnt 'burn a card', this now meant they had to shuffle up and start a new shoe. This was obviously done on purpose as she saw me spread to 2 hands of 100 and winning every round when i started off at 1x10.

I called gaming and they said they dont know what the casinos particular policy is and what they could do. I of course destroyed the gaming agent and told them it was completely illegal for the casino to manipulate the odds of a particular game to their advantage at will when its unfavorable to them.

EVEN if their policy is to shuffle up the current shoe if the new dealer doesnt burn a card(complete obvious bullshit), i have seen numerous times at stratosphere where the new dealer doesnt burn a card and the pit boss NEVER says to shuffle up on the players at the table so they are contradicting and being inconsistent with their very own policy. This is is a massive violation of regulations and i hope Gaming fines the shit out of them.

There was an agent sent out there last night to investigate what happened and to watch the tape, but im not holding my breath because Gaming is as useless and corrupt as they come in this city. I told Gaming that all they have to do is watch the last week of blackjack being dealt there and they can see for themselves they never shuffle up on anyone if a card is not burned, but tonight they did it to me. Gaming asked if i was an AP or card counter, but i didnt want to tell them anything about myself. Whether it couldve helped idk, but it is what it is. All i know is this is not only illrgal and immoral about what they did, but even if it is their own policy to shuffle up the current shoe if a card is not burned, they NEVER do that, only TONIGHT did they do it to me. This is a complete contradiction of their own policy and are manipulating the odds and discriminating vs me.

Lastly I dont care one bit about outing myself with this post. This is a shout out to the biggest immoral piece of garbage pit boss that works at Stratosphere. I hope you realize you will be fired soon after you did what you did to me last night. You will never get rid of me either. I dare you guyd to arrest me or trespass me now after Gaming has investigated your corrupt casino. That should go well in court you worthless scumbags. Its clear as day what you did to me and you will pay.
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
MidwestAP
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Chuckleberry
March 26th, 2018 at 10:00:00 AM permalink
Time to make some popcorn!
billryan
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March 26th, 2018 at 10:02:28 AM permalink
Time for a mental health check.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
SOOPOO
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March 26th, 2018 at 10:09:25 AM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG



I called gaming and they said they dont know what the casinos particular policy is and what they could do. I of course destroyed the gaming agent and told them it was completely illegal for the casino to manipulate the odds of a particular game to their advantage at will when its unfavorable to them.



Forget the rest of his post, but would you interpret a dealer ending a shoe WITH THE PURPOSE OF THWARTING a card counter to be "manipulating the odds" in what Nevada law would deem illegal? I consider this an interesting question.
MaxPen
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March 26th, 2018 at 10:13:32 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Forget the rest of his post, but would you interpret a dealer ending a shoe WITH THE PURPOSE OF THWARTING a card counter to be "manipulating the odds" in what Nevada law would deem illegal? I consider this an interesting question.



It is called preferential shuffling and it is illegal in Nevada. They do it at Green Valley a lot on their single deck games. I called them out on it in their FreeBet Blackjack couple years ago for fun. WooBoy....that was fun 😁😁

Edit; I have heard that it is illegal although there is ambiguity in the rules.
Last edited by: MaxPen on Mar 26, 2018
ZenKinG
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March 26th, 2018 at 10:14:54 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Forget the rest of his post, but would you interpret a dealer ending a shoe WITH THE PURPOSE OF THWARTING a card counter to be "manipulating the odds" in what Nevada law would deem illegal? I consider this an interesting question.



Its completely illegal. Gaming tried telling me theres nothing in the law that says that it is illegal and that it comes down to the casino's policy. That gaming agent is just another corrupt drone in this city that backs up the casinos at will. The problem is both gaming and stratsophere are fu**ed. Because even if it is legal(which it's not) and its up to the casinos own policy about how they handle procedures, they have now contradicted their own policy tonight because they NEVER do this to anyone else. I have played there for the past 2 weeks and the new dealers NEVER burn a card and the pit boss never instructs them to shuffle up the shoe and start a new one just because of that.
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
MidwestAP
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March 26th, 2018 at 10:15:24 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Forget the rest of his post, but would you interpret a dealer ending a shoe WITH THE PURPOSE OF THWARTING a card counter to be "manipulating the odds" in what Nevada law would deem illegal? I consider this an interesting question.



I don't know the answer to that, but regardless, how do you demonstrate that there was 'intent' or 'purpose'? Especially when a procedure is being used as the reason/excuse to shuffle?
Ibeatyouraces
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March 26th, 2018 at 10:18:57 AM permalink
Just put CSM's in everywhere and get rid of the card counters.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
SOOPOO
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March 26th, 2018 at 10:19:34 AM permalink
Quote: MaxPen

It is called preferential shuffling and it is illegal in Nevada.



But isn't it done routinely? If ZK thinks it was done, what real life, if any, recourse does he have?

Hypothetically, if the casino knew the count, could it say "Only table minimum bets allowed now" when the count is favorable to the players? It is technically not changing the odds on those bets, just decreasing the -EV it would be exposed to?

I'm very interested in this topic!
ZenKinG
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March 26th, 2018 at 10:19:48 AM permalink
Quote: MidwestAP

I don't know the answer to that, but regardless, how do you demonstrate that there was 'intent' or 'purpose'? Especially when a procedure is being used as the reason/excuse to shuffle?



There is NO PROCEDURE. Stratosphere never burns a card when they change dealers. Thats why this new dealer never burned a card either. The pit boss tonight completely made up that excuse to shuffle up on me in a good count while i was cleaning them out at a measley 2x100.

All Gaming has to do is watch hours of blackjack tape to confirm this. Gaming told me i will not know what comes of this because it is confidential between gaming and the casino, but that if there is a regulation violation, they will be fined heavily, lose their license, etc. Of course, i bet nothing will happen, especially them losing their license for somethinf like this because Gaming is as useless and corrupt as they come in this town. Too much tax revenue lost to shut down a casino. I hope at the very least they get fined heavily.
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
SOOPOO
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onenickelmiracle
March 26th, 2018 at 10:24:57 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Forget the rest of his post, but would you interpret a dealer ending a shoe WITH THE PURPOSE OF THWARTING a card counter to be "manipulating the odds" in what Nevada law would deem illegal? I consider this an interesting question.



My question was more theoretical than actual. I do remember a story decades ago (possibly urban legend) of someone let's say betting $25 a hand and would spread to $200 a hand. He soon found out as soon as he would hit $200 they would shuffle up. So he would bet up to $100 during positive counts, but when the count turned negative he would bump his bet to $200, basically he was controlling when the dealer would shuffle up! Said it was better than 'regular' card counting strategies.
ZenKinG
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March 26th, 2018 at 10:26:24 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

But isn't it done routinely? If ZK thinks it was done, what real life, if any, recourse does he have?

Hypothetically, if the casino knew the count, could it say "Only table minimum bets allowed now" when the count is favorable to the players? It is technically not changing the odds on those bets, just decreasing the -EV it would be exposed to?

I'm very interested in this topic!



The recourse is that not only is preferential shuffling illegal because it manipulates the odds of the current game, they are also violating their own policy in place. If they are shufdling up shoes because a card wasnt burned by the new dealer, you better hope the past 10 thousand+ hours had the very same procedure done to every other single patron at the table when the pit boss was standing by and witnessed a dealer not burn a card. If not, strato is in deep shit and i will be contacting Bob Nersesian soon about this.

Im officially sick of the corruption going on. I dont care about my 50k bankroll. Im sick of everyone pushing things aside because something is not 'worth it' and allowing casinos not just in Nevada, but everywhere, get away with their corruption as they please for years upon years. Show is about to come to an end very soon in this city.
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
SOOPOO
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March 26th, 2018 at 10:28:20 AM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

Gaming told me i will not know what comes of this because it is confidential between gaming and the casino,



This sounds unreasonable. There is no public record of your accusation, no public record of "gamings" investigation, no public record of their findings? You don't have a "case number" or "record of complaint" or anything like that?
ZenKinG
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March 26th, 2018 at 10:30:10 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

This sounds unreasonable. There is no public record of your accusation, no public record of "gamings" investigation, no public record of their findings? You don't have a "case number" or "record of complaint" or anything like that?



They did not give anything to me because of the bs they fed me through the phone about confidentiality. They said they have my name and phone number for the record, etc. What I think happened is Gaming knows im right and theyre protecting their little corrupt friends. Like i said corruption runs deep and i think its time i contact bob to sue both gaming and stratosphere
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
Wizard
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Romes
March 26th, 2018 at 10:30:39 AM permalink
When I was more active counting, dealers shuffled up on me in good counts all the time, as evidenced by an increase in my bet. This is just part of the cat and mouse game. I don't think your chances with Gaming are very good complaining about something everybody does. Making a big public stink about it may not have been the best idea you ever had.

If you feel this is illegal, can you quote me the regulation?
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
SOOPOO
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March 26th, 2018 at 10:41:19 AM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

They did not give anything to me because of the bs they fed me through the phone about confidentiality. They said they have my name and phone number for the record, etc. What I think happened is Gaming knows im right and theyre protecting their little corrupt friends. Like i said corruption runs deep and i think its time i contact bob to sue both gaming and stratosphere



My question about the 'case number' is if you have an attorney call to look into the matter, what happens when they say they have no idea who ZenKing is or what he is talking about? Mike just posted that he thinks 'everyone does it', which is what I thought too. IANAL, but it is POSSIBLE ZK has the ammo for a class action lawsuit.

Hopefully Zcore can weigh in..... will a pit boss instruct a dealer to shuffle up if the count is positive and players have raised their wagers?

I think this topic might garner more eyes if the thread name was changed..... Might you consider that Mr. Wizard? I don't think Mr. ZK would mind?
Ibeatyouraces
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MaxPen
March 26th, 2018 at 10:42:31 AM permalink
Nothing will happen to Stratosphere.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
MaxPen
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March 26th, 2018 at 10:49:03 AM permalink
There is a podcast with Bob on GWAE where he states that he thinks it is technically illegal to preferential shuffle by the casino because at that point they are changing the odds. It has never been challenged in court though.
Ibeatyouraces
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March 26th, 2018 at 10:50:46 AM permalink
The same can be said about CSM's. There is no set amount of rounds the the dealer must deal before adding the discards back in. Those are completely legal.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
ZenKinG
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March 26th, 2018 at 10:52:32 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

When I was more active counting, dealers shuffled up on me in good counts all the time, as evidenced by an increase in my bet. This is just part of the cat and mouse game. I don't think your chances with Gaming are very good complaining about something everybody does. Making a big public stink about it may not have been the best idea you ever had.

If you feel this is illegal, can you quote me the regulation?



NRS 465.015 Definitions. As used in this chapter:

“Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game;

(b) The amount or frequency of payment in a game;

(c) The value of a wagering instrument; or

(d) The value of a wagering credit.

Preferential shuffling violates subsection (a) and (b) as it alters the result of the game and the frequency of payment due to more blackjacks that I wouldve received had they not shuffled up on me in a hot shoe.

What really gets strato in trouble now is that they dont do this to any other average patron when a new dealer comes to the table and doesnt burn a card. What does strato claim to Gaming or to the judge when they review the past 10,000 hours of blackjack tape action and the new dealers not burning a card and not shuffling up the shoe with the pit boss present? And then turn the tape to last night and having the pit boss 'whisper' in the ear of the dealer and then immediately shuffling up on me?

How can they defend the allegation that they didnt preferential shuffle on me and didnt alter the game of chance or the result of the game or the frequency of payment?
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
AcesAndEights
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SM777
March 26th, 2018 at 10:52:44 AM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

Long story short...


Well that's certainly not true...

ZK, you clearly know more about gaming law than almost anyone. Why bother calling Bob, just file suit and litigate yourself. I await the outcome and Stratosphere's untimely demise.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
billryan
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March 26th, 2018 at 11:02:28 AM permalink
Once you file a complaint can the casino use the pending case to bar you from the premises?
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
ZenKinG
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March 26th, 2018 at 11:04:43 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Once you file a complaint can the casino use the pending case to bar you from the premises?



Nope. Besides barring is illegal in nevada if youre just counting. You need to be causing a 'disturbance' or being 'disorderly'. Whatever bs comes out of their mouth saying that youre trespassed, etc is just intimidation and lies
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
mcallister3200
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March 26th, 2018 at 11:12:28 AM permalink
Any casino that uses a cut card on a single deck game is preferential shuffling.

ZK, if you want to be self righteous and get nothing out of this yourself then go for it. It’s pretty clear why you haven’t been able to get hours in LV (continuously messing with Paris, about the worst place possible for leading to issues elsewhere). You can either try to make money at CC, or fight against all the bullshit, but trying both is just going to be a continuous exercise in frustration/futility.
FleaStiff
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March 26th, 2018 at 11:13:50 AM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

There was an agent sent out there last night to investigate what happened and to watch the tape, but im not holding my breath because Gaming is as useless and corrupt as they come in this city.

If they are useless and corrupt why do you bother calling them or even having them on speed cial?
Romes
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March 26th, 2018 at 11:40:17 AM permalink
1st, I guess I have to point out... At least the Strat clearly doesn't use chinese preshuffled cards since you were winning?

Quote: MaxPen

There is a podcast with Bob on GWAE where he states that he thinks it is technically illegal to preferential shuffle by the casino because at that point they are changing the odds. It has never been challenged in court though.

Kind of. He stated it IS illegal, BUT you'd have to prove THAT'S why they shuffled. Thus, they could claim it's for 1 of 1,000 reasons. As long as they don't say "we're shuffling because the count is high" then it's not illegal because they don't know if they're helping or hurting the players, technically. You and I both know they're shuffling because you're betting big, which must mean the count is good... but so long as they don't have someone in a room counting going "the count is high on table 12, shuffle that shoe" then it's not technically illegal.

Quote: ZenKinG

NRS 465.015 Definitions. As used in this chapter:

“Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game;

(b) The amount or frequency of payment in a game;

(c) The value of a wagering instrument; or

(d) The value of a wagering credit.

Preferential shuffling violates subsection (a) and (b) as it alters the result of the game and the frequency of payment due to more blackjacks that I wouldve received had they not shuffled up on me in a hot shoe.

Shuffling doesn't mean it violates A or B. You must prove they KNOW they're changing the odds by shuffling in order to violate the statute.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
billryan
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March 26th, 2018 at 11:47:30 AM permalink
Should be easy to prove.
Put out a larger bet in a good count and they shuffle.
Put out a similar bet in a bad count and do they shuffle?
As mentioned, If putting out big bets causes a shuffle, use it to your advantage.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
Romes
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MaxPenRogerKintSOOPOObeachbumbabsontariodealer
March 26th, 2018 at 11:47:47 AM permalink
I feel this deserves it's own post, sorry for the double up

ZK... let's say you're right, gaming says this isn't fair, and the LAWS get changed/enforced so they can NEVER shuffle to change any kind of odds. Let's say all that happens. Okay, now every single casino in town switches to Continuous Shufflers, which is completely in their right to do. Have fun with your counting career? Have fun ruining ANYONE ELSE'S counting career because you're making a stink over things we've all known for decades. As the Wiz said, we're not just pushing it aside. It's part of the cat and mouse game.

They're a business. They're not FORCED to let you win. They have the right to change their games, not offer them, and ban you from their establishment. This is why we're forced to play the cat and mouse game, trying to cover that we're counters, not publicly outing ourselves, and most importantly of all not ruining opportunities for ourselves and more importantly other AP's/counters.

If I was hole carding a game and got cheated out of a hand, I wouldn't say s**t. The $x that I lost there is nothing compared to the $500-$1500 per hour I'm pulling from them, so F it. I also wouldn't burn the play down by exposing it to them to not only burn my own play, where I could potentially come back for months or years, but then to not burn the play for other AP's... if every AP played "burn it down" strategy, there'd be nothing left for any of us. This is a big part of AP'ing... AP'ing responsibly, I guess I'd call it. Very upsetting and disappointing to see someone call themselves a counter/AP and actively try to ruin the opportunities for all.

Because of that I would NEVER want to tell you about ANY plays, anywhere, EVER, because I know if you feel you've been wronged you'll blow the play out of the water throwing a tantrum... thus costing me thousands or tens of thousands of dollars.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
FleaStiff
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March 26th, 2018 at 11:50:10 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Once you file a complaint can the casino use the pending case to bar you from the premises?

Definitely not.
If the amount in dispute is 500.00 or more and you call for a gaming agent they must preserve the evidence no matter who is inconvenienced or annoyed by it. When the agent arrives and flashes his badge his determination can be appealed and a hearing will be calendared. Even during the pendency of that appeal they can't bar you and it would be real bad publicity if they even tried.
SM777
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DRichGlenG
March 26th, 2018 at 2:06:22 PM permalink
ZenKing crying in another post? Wow, didn't see that coming.
Wizard
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RS
March 26th, 2018 at 2:24:42 PM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

NRS 465.015 Definitions. As used in this chapter:

“Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game;

(b) The amount or frequency of payment in a game;

(c) The value of a wagering instrument; or

(d) The value of a wagering credit.



Thanks. If your motive in this is to set a precedent, I applaud that. However, I would recommend you cool down and not fight this as angry casino-hating hot head. If it would help to have an expert witness to show the casino benefit to a preferential shuffle, I'll do so if this gets to a hearing level.

I'm sure the casino will argue they didn't shuffle because they knew the count, they did it because you raised your bet. You can take advantage of this by increasing your bet in a negative count, ensuring you play only in positive and neutral counts.

I would lay long odds you'll lose, but sometimes you have to fight something on principle.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
boymimbo
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March 26th, 2018 at 2:39:33 PM permalink
Quote: SM777

ZenKing crying in another post? Wow, didn't see that coming.



Given that there is no law in place concerning when a casino can shuffle a deck or burn/not burn a card, they aren't cheating. Of course when a deck reverts to a new shoe the cards in the deck the odds are changed. However, it is very unlikely that a casino will be found guilty of cheating when they are doing counting counter-measures.

Likely other casinos in the MGM family and their lawyers will cite many examples where they take this measure against suspected counters. It's a widespread practice.

And yes, of course, they can prevent you from playing blackjack for any reason not amounting to discrimination based on creed/sex/sexuality etc.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Ibeatyouraces
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March 26th, 2018 at 2:40:15 PM permalink
What would counters do if casinos didn't use cut cards on shoe games and the dealers just shuffled any time they wanted?
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
FleaStiff
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March 26th, 2018 at 2:54:34 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I would lay long odds you'll lose, but sometimes you have to fight something on principle.

Lawyers charge double for that.
gamerfreak
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March 26th, 2018 at 6:11:05 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Given that there is no law in place concerning when a casino can shuffle a deck or burn/not burn a card, they aren't cheating. Of course when a deck reverts to a new shoe the cards in the deck the odds are changed. However, it is very unlikely that a casino will be found guilty of cheating when they are doing counting counter-measures.


If someone in the sky counted every shoe, and signaled to the floor to reshuffle whenever the count got favorable to the player, would that be cheating in your opinion?
Wizard
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Romes
March 26th, 2018 at 7:00:25 PM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

If someone in the sky counted every shoe, and signaled to the floor to reshuffle whenever the count got favorable to the player, would that be cheating in your opinion?



It would be in mine. However, I think if it is one on one, player against dealer, it is more of a fair fight.

If ZK wins this case, and dealers must have a predetermined point of shuffling, then every game will be on a continuous shuffler, which will only hurt the players. Better for both sides to let the cat and mouse game stay the same.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
RS
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March 26th, 2018 at 7:02:46 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Likely other casinos in the MGM family and their lawyers will cite many examples where they take this measure against suspected counters. It's a widespread practice.


MGM doesn't own Stratosphere, but in any case -- this is NOT what the casino would want to do. That would be an admission of guilt.

I don't think making this thread was a good idea, but I support ZK in this endeavor.

A few things stick out to me.

1. I am assuming what he said is true that the Stratosphere dealers don't burn a card when entering the table.
2. They told him (I'm assuming, he wasn't explicit IIRC) they were shuffling because they didn't burn a card.
3. This completely contradicts the, "We're shuffling because you have a big bet, but we don't know anything about the count."
Wizard
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March 26th, 2018 at 7:19:27 PM permalink
I am surprised this is the first time ZK has been early-shuffled on, if that is the case. Somehow I sense there is a story behind the story.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
MrBo
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March 26th, 2018 at 7:46:00 PM permalink
Preferential shuffling has been going on forever in Nevada. It is nothing new. It is clearly cheating. Just think about it in terms of gamerfreak's post. The odds in blackjack are not 'set' for every round as they are in other games. In blackjack it is a flow, based on cards played and cards remaining. Sometimes the remaining cards favor the house, sometimes the remaining cards favor the player. The accumulation of that makes up the house advantage.

Now if you remove or shuffle away those times that the remaining cards favor the player and only play the rounds that favor the house, you are without a doubt, illegally changing the odds of the game, increasing the house advantage. Robert Nersesian has voiced his opinion on this many times.

That said, it would be very difficult to win any kind of court proceedings involving preferential shuffling. The case would hinge on getting deep into the math and that's where you would lose the interest of many judges and jurors. Any kind of legal proceedings that gets too technical has this problem.

And if someone were to win a case like this or one of the other cases Zenking has recently been talking about like challenging Nevada's casinos right to ban players, the results would be exactly what occurred in Atlantic City when Ken Uston 'won' his case, the casino's would then just offer worse games. As I said in another post recently, of these two models, players should want this Nevada model over the New Jersey model.

So while, preferential shuffling is illegal, best case scenario is what Wizard said. It becomes part of the cat and mouse game. Rather than pursue legal challenges that if you were to win, would result in worse conditions, you are better off learning to play this cat and mouse game better.
Wizard
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March 26th, 2018 at 8:10:29 PM permalink
Quote: MrBo

Preferential shuffling has been going on forever in Nevada....



Excellent post. Thank you. Could have never said it better myself.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
ZenKinG
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March 26th, 2018 at 8:19:35 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I am surprised this is the first time ZK has been early-shuffled on, if that is the case. Somehow I sense there is a story behind the story.



Its the first time in Nevada, not overall. In PA i was shuffled up on at SugarHohse multiple times. I called them out on it and said they cant do that and they told me its the only thing theyre 'allowed' to do, which is just more hogwash to a players face.

Regarding the games getting worse if the case is won, Nevada would never go to CSMs. Casinos have tried offering CSMs in the past and the average blackjack players stopped playing so they went back to shoe games. Blackjack is going no where, theres simply too much revenue lost to the average player than to counters and as brain dead as casinos are, even they realize this. After my head has cleared a bit, i do have to find out how much this will all cost to fight it. Going in without a lawyer they will just try to railroad me so i might need Bob as a formality.

Also this isnt just about preferential shuffling. Stratosphere was caught in the act violating their own policy about not burning a card and having to shuffle up the shoe. So once they review the tape of the past 10,000 hours of blackjack tape they will see many times when the pit boss was at the the table with the new dealer not burning a new card and NOT shuffling up on everyone.

Why do you think this new dealer didnt burn a card when she got to the table? Because theres no such policy in place. Why did the pit boss have to whisper in her ear as soon as she dealt the first round if it is policy to shuffle up on someone. Shouldnt the dealer have known that she made a mistake and called over the pit boss that she didnt burn a card and that she should also shuffle? Because theres no policy in place where they have to burn a card let alone shuffle up on you if they forget to burn a card. Because if there was there wouldnt need to be any whispering in the dealers ear. That should be funny to the jury and judge when they see a whisper to a dealers ear mide of the roune. Yeah, no shenanigans going on at all, right?

All these facts will prove that the casinos preferentially shuffled on me. Once that is proven in discovery, stratosphere now has violated the NRS cheating statute as I mentioned before.
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
ZenKinG
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March 26th, 2018 at 8:31:13 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

I feel this deserves it's own post, sorry for the double up

ZK... let's say you're right, gaming says this isn't fair, and the LAWS get changed/enforced so they can NEVER shuffle to change any kind of odds. Let's say all that happens. Okay, now every single casino in town switches to Continuous Shufflers, which is completely in their right to do. Have fun with your counting career? Have fun ruining ANYONE ELSE'S counting career because you're making a stink over things we've all known for decades. As the Wiz said, we're not just pushing it aside. It's part of the cat and mouse game.

They're a business. They're not FORCED to let you win. They have the right to change their games, not offer them, and ban you from their establishment. This is why we're forced to play the cat and mouse game, trying to cover that we're counters, not publicly outing ourselves, and most importantly of all not ruining opportunities for ourselves and more importantly other AP's/counters.

If I was hole carding a game and got cheated out of a hand, I wouldn't say s**t. The $x that I lost there is nothing compared to the $500-$1500 per hour I'm pulling from them, so F it. I also wouldn't burn the play down by exposing it to them to not only burn my own play, where I could potentially come back for months or years, but then to not burn the play for other AP's... if every AP played "burn it down" strategy, there'd be nothing left for any of us. This is a big part of AP'ing... AP'ing responsibly, I guess I'd call it. Very upsetting and disappointing to see someone call themselves a counter/AP and actively try to ruin the opportunities for all.

Because of that I would NEVER want to tell you about ANY plays, anywhere, EVER, because I know if you feel you've been wronged you'll blow the play out of the water throwing a tantrum... thus costing me thousands or tens of thousands of dollars.



Yeah because playing solo is the equivalent of me being on a team and outing a play. I would never sacrifice my network of people and burn out a play because i got cheated or somehow screwed when they are the ones to tell me about something n the first place. What benefit would I get by doing that other than losing a network of players. I would consult with the team first what they think about it and go from there.

Im also not even outing anything anyway, just challenging a casino practice that if won 'wouldnt' even destroy blackjack games anyway. So what you accused me of is not an apples to apples argument. You might think it is, but its not. Its not like i just found a 50% advantage play and took it to the forums and told everyone. This is a preferential shuffling cheating practice that has been going on for decades and never challenged in court because everyone just pushes it aside and feels its not 'worth it'.
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
ZenKinG
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March 26th, 2018 at 8:39:12 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Given that there is no law in place concerning when a casino can shuffle a deck or burn/not burn a card, they aren't cheating. Of course when a deck reverts to a new shoe the cards in the deck the odds are changed. However, it is very unlikely that a casino will be found guilty of cheating when they are doing counting counter-measures.

Likely other casinos in the MGM family and their lawyers will cite many examples where they take this measure against suspected counters. It's a widespread practice.

And yes, of course, they can prevent you from playing blackjack for any reason not amounting to discrimination based on creed/sex/sexuality etc.



No exact law on the books, but what they do in the process of counter measuring indeed violates the cheating statute in NRS 465.015

NRS 465.015 Definitions. As used in this chapter:

“Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game;

(b) The amount or frequency of payment in a game;

(c) The value of a wagering instrument; or

(d) The value of a wagering credit

All that needs to be proven is that they purposely shuffled away the high proportion of high cards to low cards because they didnt have the advantage. That would be clearly cheating by violating subsection (a) and (b). This can easily be proven because of the 'whispering' in the dealers ear during the first round that the new dealer showed up and the fact they dont do any of this, whether its burning a card, whispering, or shuffling up a shoe simply because a card wasnt burned.

Go look at the past 100+ hours at stratosphere and see that no dealers burn a card and the dealer is never caught 'whispering' in the dealers ear. And when you spot a card not being burned, notice that the pit boss never told the dealer to shuffle up on everyone at the table either. But as soon as i go from $10 to 2x100, the dealer whispers in their ear and then tells me they have to shuffle because they didnt burn a card. Yeah makes perfect sense
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
MrBo
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March 26th, 2018 at 8:47:01 PM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

Also this isnt just about preferential shuffling. Stratosphere was caught in the act violating their own policy about not burning a card and having to shuffle up the shoe.



You have no say in casino policy. Nor does gaming. Nor would any legal challenge succeed. What if it is stratosphere's 'policy' to open a certain table at noon. But one day for whatever reason, maybe employee shortage, they don't open that table until 2pm. You going to call gaming or file a lawsuit?

You are grasping at straws, looking for some sort of challenge, where there is nothing.
ZenKinG
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March 26th, 2018 at 8:50:00 PM permalink
Quote: MrBo

You have no say in casino policy. Nor does gaming. Nor would any legal challenge succeed. What if it is stratosphere's 'policy' to open a certain table at noon. But one day for whatever reason, maybe employee shortage, they don't open that table until 2pm. You going to call gaming or file a lawsuit?

You are grasping at straws, looking for some sort of challenge, where there is nothing.



What are you even talking about. This is about the policy of burning cards. Thats how i know for a fact there is no policy in place that they must shuffle up on you if the dealer doesnt burn a card. I played there many times for the past 2 weeks and domt recall ever seeing the new dealer burn a card.

Go look at the past 1000 hours of blackjack tape at stratosphere and see the inconsistencies in their policy. You will see a pit boss present and a dealer not burning a card and the pit boss not whispering in their ear or telling them to shuffle up on everyone. But as soon as i go from 1x10 to 2x100 and start winning every round, the whispering begins and the excuses of not burning a card and having to shuffle begins. Interesting. Thats all the proof i need.
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
Ibeatyouraces
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March 26th, 2018 at 8:52:30 PM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

No exact law on the books, but what they do in the process of counter measuring indeed violates the cheating statute in NRS 465.015

NRS 465.015 Definitions. As used in this chapter:

“Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game;

(b) The amount or frequency of payment in a game;

(c) The value of a wagering instrument; or

(d) The value of a wagering credit

All that needs to be proven is that they purposely shuffled away the high proportion of high cards to low cards because they didnt have the advantage. That would be clearly cheating by violating subsection (a) and (b). This can easily be proven because of the 'whispering' in the dealers ear during the first round that the new dealer showed up and the fact they dont do any of this, whether its burning a card, whispering, or shuffling up a shoe simply because a card wasnt burned.

Go look at the past 100+ hours at stratosphere and see that no dealers burn a card and the dealer is never caught 'whispering' in the dealers ear. And when you spot a card not being burned, notice that the pit boss never told the dealer to shuffle up on everyone at the table either. But as soon as i go from $10 to 2x100, the dealer whispers in their ear and then tells me they have to shuffle because they didnt burn a card. Yeah makes perfect sense


Then by these criteria, just dealing a second round is cheating because once you deal the first, the odds, amount and frequency change. As much as I'd like to see you win, I sincerely don't think you have a leg to stand on.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
ZenKinG
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March 26th, 2018 at 8:54:37 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Then by these criteria, just dealing a second round is cheating because once you deal the first, the odds, amount and frequency change. As much as I'd like to see you win, I sincerely don't think you have a leg to stand on.



How is dealing a second round in blackjack the equivalent of deciding to shuffle up the whole shoe when the pack is rich in 9s, 10s, and aces

All the proof i need is the past 1000 hours of blackjack tape to see the inconsistencies in how they treat every other patron at the table. Youll see that they never shuffle the shoe on anyone just because dealer didnt burn a card. This proves they preferentially shuffled up on me and violated the NRS cheating statute
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
MrBo
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Thanks for this post from:
HugoSlavia
March 26th, 2018 at 9:00:50 PM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

What are you even talking about. This id about the policy of burning cards. Thats how i know for a fact there is no policy in place that they must shuffle up on you if dealer doesnt burn a card. Go look at the past 1000 hours of blackjack tape. You will see a pit boss present and a dealer not burning a card and the pit boss not whispering in their ear or telling them to shuffle up on everyone. But as soon as i go from 1x10 to 2x100 and start winning every round, the whispering begins and the excuses of not burning a card and having to shuffle begins. Interesting. Thats all the proof i need.



If it is a 'policy' then they can choose to do it or not do it at will. There is no violation of anything, nor do you have a say.

I have read a lot of this thread, but I didn't go all the way back to the beginning, so let me ask you a question. Why did you move west to Las Vegas? Was it to pursue card counting and advantage play opportunities or was it make noise, filing complains and law suits that you can't and won't win and if you somehow did win, would receive no damages? Just like Kenny Uston received no damages.

You need to figure out what your objective really is. If it is pursuing card counting and advantage play, then pursue it. You are in their house. On someone else's home court. They make the rules. The object of advantage play, of which card counting is a part of is to go to their house, play by their rules and win. You don't get to change the rules.
AxelWolf
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March 26th, 2018 at 9:03:37 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Even during the pendency of that appeal they can't bar you and it would be real bad publicity if they even tried.

Wrong!! They can and do!! At least when it comes to AP'S, even when the AP has a
LEGITIMATE complaint. Is it legal for them to do that? I don't know.

One time, I called NGC because the casino didn't want to pay me some promo money. After explaining the situation and at the time of a dispute (that we easily won, since it was obvious they should have paid) NGC actully told me to hang around because the casino security wanted to officially trespass me.

I said, "Are you requiring me to stay"

He said, ".no",

I said, "why would I hang around and wait here for them to come 86 me?" I think he mumbled somthing like smart ass under his breath.

He said, "they will just 86 you when you come to get your money"

I said, "that's fine I won't be back to pick it up"

He then gave me the nod to take off.

I would be willing to bet, if they caught me in the place, they would claim I had been officially trespassed and could have me arrested.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
MrBo
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March 26th, 2018 at 9:09:36 PM permalink
Quote: MrBo

I have read a lot of this thread, but I didn't go all the way back to the beginning, so let me ask you a question.



My mistake, I was referencing your other long running thread.

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