SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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onenickelmiracle
March 26th, 2018 at 10:24:57 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Forget the rest of his post, but would you interpret a dealer ending a shoe WITH THE PURPOSE OF THWARTING a card counter to be "manipulating the odds" in what Nevada law would deem illegal? I consider this an interesting question.



My question was more theoretical than actual. I do remember a story decades ago (possibly urban legend) of someone let's say betting $25 a hand and would spread to $200 a hand. He soon found out as soon as he would hit $200 they would shuffle up. So he would bet up to $100 during positive counts, but when the count turned negative he would bump his bet to $200, basically he was controlling when the dealer would shuffle up! Said it was better than 'regular' card counting strategies.
ZenKinG
ZenKinG
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March 26th, 2018 at 10:26:24 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

But isn't it done routinely? If ZK thinks it was done, what real life, if any, recourse does he have?

Hypothetically, if the casino knew the count, could it say "Only table minimum bets allowed now" when the count is favorable to the players? It is technically not changing the odds on those bets, just decreasing the -EV it would be exposed to?

I'm very interested in this topic!



The recourse is that not only is preferential shuffling illegal because it manipulates the odds of the current game, they are also violating their own policy in place. If they are shufdling up shoes because a card wasnt burned by the new dealer, you better hope the past 10 thousand+ hours had the very same procedure done to every other single patron at the table when the pit boss was standing by and witnessed a dealer not burn a card. If not, strato is in deep shit and i will be contacting Bob Nersesian soon about this.

Im officially sick of the corruption going on. I dont care about my 50k bankroll. Im sick of everyone pushing things aside because something is not 'worth it' and allowing casinos not just in Nevada, but everywhere, get away with their corruption as they please for years upon years. Show is about to come to an end very soon in this city.
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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March 26th, 2018 at 10:28:20 AM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

Gaming told me i will not know what comes of this because it is confidential between gaming and the casino,



This sounds unreasonable. There is no public record of your accusation, no public record of "gamings" investigation, no public record of their findings? You don't have a "case number" or "record of complaint" or anything like that?
ZenKinG
ZenKinG
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March 26th, 2018 at 10:30:10 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

This sounds unreasonable. There is no public record of your accusation, no public record of "gamings" investigation, no public record of their findings? You don't have a "case number" or "record of complaint" or anything like that?



They did not give anything to me because of the bs they fed me through the phone about confidentiality. They said they have my name and phone number for the record, etc. What I think happened is Gaming knows im right and theyre protecting their little corrupt friends. Like i said corruption runs deep and i think its time i contact bob to sue both gaming and stratosphere
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
Wizard
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Wizard
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Romes
March 26th, 2018 at 10:30:39 AM permalink
When I was more active counting, dealers shuffled up on me in good counts all the time, as evidenced by an increase in my bet. This is just part of the cat and mouse game. I don't think your chances with Gaming are very good complaining about something everybody does. Making a big public stink about it may not have been the best idea you ever had.

If you feel this is illegal, can you quote me the regulation?
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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March 26th, 2018 at 10:41:19 AM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

They did not give anything to me because of the bs they fed me through the phone about confidentiality. They said they have my name and phone number for the record, etc. What I think happened is Gaming knows im right and theyre protecting their little corrupt friends. Like i said corruption runs deep and i think its time i contact bob to sue both gaming and stratosphere



My question about the 'case number' is if you have an attorney call to look into the matter, what happens when they say they have no idea who ZenKing is or what he is talking about? Mike just posted that he thinks 'everyone does it', which is what I thought too. IANAL, but it is POSSIBLE ZK has the ammo for a class action lawsuit.

Hopefully Zcore can weigh in..... will a pit boss instruct a dealer to shuffle up if the count is positive and players have raised their wagers?

I think this topic might garner more eyes if the thread name was changed..... Might you consider that Mr. Wizard? I don't think Mr. ZK would mind?
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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MaxPen
March 26th, 2018 at 10:42:31 AM permalink
Nothing will happen to Stratosphere.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
MaxPen
MaxPen
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March 26th, 2018 at 10:49:03 AM permalink
There is a podcast with Bob on GWAE where he states that he thinks it is technically illegal to preferential shuffle by the casino because at that point they are changing the odds. It has never been challenged in court though.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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March 26th, 2018 at 10:50:46 AM permalink
The same can be said about CSM's. There is no set amount of rounds the the dealer must deal before adding the discards back in. Those are completely legal.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
ZenKinG
ZenKinG
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March 26th, 2018 at 10:52:32 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

When I was more active counting, dealers shuffled up on me in good counts all the time, as evidenced by an increase in my bet. This is just part of the cat and mouse game. I don't think your chances with Gaming are very good complaining about something everybody does. Making a big public stink about it may not have been the best idea you ever had.

If you feel this is illegal, can you quote me the regulation?



NRS 465.015 Definitions. As used in this chapter:

“Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game;

(b) The amount or frequency of payment in a game;

(c) The value of a wagering instrument; or

(d) The value of a wagering credit.

Preferential shuffling violates subsection (a) and (b) as it alters the result of the game and the frequency of payment due to more blackjacks that I wouldve received had they not shuffled up on me in a hot shoe.

What really gets strato in trouble now is that they dont do this to any other average patron when a new dealer comes to the table and doesnt burn a card. What does strato claim to Gaming or to the judge when they review the past 10,000 hours of blackjack tape action and the new dealers not burning a card and not shuffling up the shoe with the pit boss present? And then turn the tape to last night and having the pit boss 'whisper' in the ear of the dealer and then immediately shuffling up on me?

How can they defend the allegation that they didnt preferential shuffle on me and didnt alter the game of chance or the result of the game or the frequency of payment?
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.

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