Moving out to play

Well, it's come to that point in my life where it's time to move out of my parents house. I have a bachelors degree in business that I've put to no use whatsoever. I've basically worked two jobs out of college for two years, then quit both of them and finally started to take blackjack seriously and putting the hours in after getting a decent roll together. Im now at 50k cash with a car that is paid off(worth about 10k if i was to sell it right now) and i have no debt and never had a credit card in my life. Im kind of mad that im only at 50k but ive had a bit of bad luck, not just blackjack, that has kept me from not having a bigger bankroll. The good thing is there is no baggage, no debt, no girl, no nothing, just a free man with decisions to make.

With the intro out of the way, the plan now is to move out to play exclusively blackjack. I've kind of already told myself i wasted 4 years in school for nothing like most people have and dont want to admit. I've balanced the ideas and found out it's more lucrative and enjoyable to play blackjack and waking up to do something i enjoy rather than sit in an office cubicle for 8 hours a day working for 'someone' and for a much smaller wage. The idea of working for 'myself' and making my own hours is a big + for me. I still might do something down the road that puts my degree to some sort of use, maybe open a casino, who knows, but for now I want to just keep grinding out profit and keep playing.

My current play is to move to Vegas. Regardless of what people say about Vegas, there are still many playable games, you just have to move around a lot to last sort of like what KJ does. I have put together a whole document of how I plan to attack Vegas and i think it's a pretty sound strategy that will buy me a lot of time while still getting the EV. Yes there are much more limited games and fewer tables with good rules now since it's all turning 6:5, but there are still opportunities.

My question to all of you is this; where else would be a nice place to move to in the country that would be a nice EV move to solely play blackjack? I guess you could say Pennsylvania, which I currently play at and live only 1 - 1.5 hours away from home, but I think i've burned out my face a bit there already with several backoffs and moving there only to get backed off soon would be a waste. Of course there's still many shifts and casinos I havent played at in the state, but still I think with all the arguments with pit bosses and obvious wonging that i do, i think it's better to move somewhere else to play. I play pretty obvious(pure wonging most of the time) and aggressive because I want to build the bankroll as fast as possible, i do every single index when it calls for it, doubling A9, splitting 10s, the whole nine yards. So with that being said, right now the plan right now is Vegas and play very short sessions with a whole rotation of playable stores that ih ave compiled already, but looking to here thoughts from everyone else what my other options could be.

And yes, I do have CBJN and a 12 month subscription, so im not some lazy cheapskate trying to get free information. I have all the games with rules handy, which I already used to create my Vegas attack document. This is more of a discussion type thread that balances life balance, convenience, low cost housing and profitability of the games.

Realistically for BJ counting you are going to have to travel some of split between two locations that are decent. Vegas looks like there's lots of decent games, but inter property communications within the 4 big chains is effective; lose one lose them all for a long time. Better than working jobs you hate but this decision will take much the joy out of the game for you, that is not a maybe it will happen if you stick to it.

Or split between vegas and decent games within driving distance out west. If someone really didn't want to travel much and play full time I'd probably recommend splitting between vegas and Washington, problem with Washington is higher cost of living combined with low table limits.

Not having a credit card doesn't really equate to a good thing, you may not need credit now but think to the future.
There are no fee 500.00 limit cards available with high APR's you could acquire and use for your standard expenditures every month, it would be a great convenience to you all the while building credit at no cost.
You can get an online Capital one checking account and mastercard have the benefit and convenience of both and never pay a penny for them.

After you move out would you ask your parents if I can move in?

thanks for the advice mcallister. Will keep in mind.

There are many advantage plays with credit cards

Quote: GWAE

There are many advantage plays with credit cards

balance transfer to cash, all on red 7. loss rebate.

Quote: ZenKinG

Im kind of mad that im only at 50k but ive had a bit of bad luck, not just blackjack, that has kept me from not having a bigger bankroll. The good thing is there is no baggage, no debt, no girl, no nothing, just a free man with decisions to make.

With the intro out of the way, the plan now is to move out to play exclusively blackjack. I've kind of already told myself i wasted 4 years in school for nothing like most people have and dont want to admit. I've balanced the ideas and found out it's more lucrative and enjoyable to play blackjack and waking up to do something i enjoy rather than sit in an office cubicle for 8 hours a day working for 'someone' and for a much smaller wage. The idea of working for 'myself' and making my own hours is a big + for me.

Nothing wrong with wanting to work for yourself. Not everyone is suited for an office job, and recognizing that about yourself early shows great self-awareness. I've worked for myself for over a decade. The difference between me and an AP is that I create tangible goods and services and my clients want my business. Advantage play is the opposite -- it doesn't produce anything and the casinos definitely don't want you to be there.

If you have the mental aptitude for advantage play, you also have the aptitude to be a successful entrepreneur in a field where detail orientation and numeracy are valuable. Have you considered starting your own business or solo consulting practice? Or even making investments as a professional trader? I would strongly advise that over any form of advantage play. You should run the numbers on expected revenues. You've made $50,000 over a several year period, yes? I believe that's pretty good for an AP, but it's not very much revenue if you're running a business. What's your average hourly rate considering all the time you spend on your business (commuting to plays, actually playing, scouting, doing research, etc.)? A solo entrepreneur serving almost any white-collar business should have no problem earning more than $50,000 per year, and without any risk of losing a bankroll.

A BA in business administration should be a great head start, too -- I didn't have any business background, I studied CS and math, so I had to figure everything out by myself. But I work for myself and make my own hours too. I also work at home so I have no commuting costs, and the only time I need to travel is for client visits.

One last point. With AP, there is no meaningful upside, no chance for a home run. Your only source of revenue is playing and there are no residuals. Unless you're going to write books or teach seminars, if you stop playing, you stop earning. If you create something as part of a business, on the other hand, you can sell or license it for a much larger amount than it cost you to create. I have personally done that, and that's the entire basis of the tech startup industry. As a business major this isn't news to you. The point is, that option isn't even available with AP.

So what do you want to do with your life? Count cards and make a little money, or start a real business and make real money?

I expect a lot of pushback from the APs on this site who do make a lot of money on the grounds that making that money qualifies AP as a "real business", but it's inarguable that the average successful AP earns less money than the average successful entrepreneur. And so does the most successful AP compared to the most successful entrepreneur. Which would you rather be?

ME,I agree with most of what you said,the one thing I have an issue with is that making 50k over several years is pretty good.For a part time player maybe it's ok
But I don't think someone should even consider being a full time Ap unless they can make 100k+ per year,otherwise I think you should stick to a normal
Job.
.

Maybe I blinked and missed it, but it seems to me that you left out an important part of this:

Where in Vegas are you going to live?

Without a job, you will need a steady income to cover rent or house payments. Even that assumes that you have no credit problems, which is a significant assumption given that you seem to have no credit history.

50,000 bankroll.
Minus $400 driving cross country
Minus $400 car registration( mandatory within 30days)
Minus $100 new drivers license
Minus $800 first months rent
Minus $800 security deposit
Minus $500 two weeks hotel while apartment hunting.
Minus $1000 furnishings
Minus $200 kitchen utensils,
Minus $100 apartment necessities.
I moved here in May with the same sort of idea. That was my budget, and in almost every case, I underestimated it. I pay $875 base rent, which translates into a $1033 check each month.
Most rents don't include gas or electric( $175 in summer, $70 in winter).
Cell phone is $40-$50
Car insurance cost me more in Henderson than it did in NYC
Food is cheaper, but I live alone and spend over $200 in groceries, despite eating out fairly often.
Health insurance is not cheap.
Just a word to the wise.
Yes, you can find cheaper places to live, but considering you'll be dealing in a lot of cash.

As an advantage blackjack player, expect little to no comps. You won't be disappointed.

Quote: billryan

50,000 bankroll.
Minus $400 driving cross country
Minus $400 car registration( mandatory within 30days)
Minus $100 new drivers license
Minus $800 first months rent
Minus $800 security deposit
Minus $500 two weeks hotel while apartment hunting.
Minus $1000 furnishings
Minus $200 kitchen utensils,
Minus $100 apartment necessities.
I moved here in May with the same sort of idea. That was my budget, and in almost every case, I underestimated it. I pay $875 base rent, which translates into a $1033 check each month.
Most rents don't include gas or electric( $175 in summer, $70 in winter).
Cell phone is $40-$50
Car insurance cost me more in Henderson than it did in NYC
Food is cheaper, but I live alone and spend over $200 in groceries, despite eating out fairly often.
Health insurance is not cheap.

Also don't forget TV / Internet - and either buy a washer & dryer (highly recommended) or include laundromat charges.

But $200/month in groceries? I live in the San Francisco area (home of $5/gallon milk), and I rarely pay half that per month.
Doesn't Vons have "$5 Fridays"?
Then again, my tastes probably aren't as refined as yours. For example, my usual dinners consist of leftover pizza on Mondays ($3-5, depending on where I got the pizza; those Domino's $8 carryout specials save me quite a bit), meatball sandwich with mac & cheese on Tuesdays, and a sandwich (either pastrami & roast beef or ham & turkey) on Wednesdays. I can also make a 9 x 13 dish of lasagne (yes, "e" at the end; it's plural) last three dinners.

About $60 of my grocery bill goes to my dog. He eats a chicken thigh and almost a pound of kibble a day, and a box of biscuits a month.
Almost every apartment I looked at had a washer dryer in them. That seems to be a Vegas thing. Most include basic cable and internet, as well. You can stay at an extended stay hotel for under a grand.

Quote: billryan

50,000 bankroll.
Minus $400 driving cross country
Minus $400 car registration( mandatory within 30days)
Minus $100 new drivers license
Minus $800 first months rent
Minus $800 security deposit
Minus $500 two weeks hotel while apartment hunting.
Minus $1000 furnishings
Minus $200 kitchen utensils,
Minus $100 apartment necessities.
I moved here in May with the same sort of idea. That was my budget, and in almost every case, I underestimated it. I pay $875 base rent, which translates into a $1033 check each month.
Most rents don't include gas or electric( $175 in summer, $70 in winter).
Cell phone is $40-$50
Car insurance cost me more in Henderson than it did in NYC
Food is cheaper, but I live alone and spend over $200 in groceries, despite eating out fairly often.
Health insurance is not cheap.
Just a word to the wise.
Yes, you can find cheaper places to live, but considering you'll be dealing in a lot of cash.

As an advantage blackjack player, expect little to no comps. You won't be disappointed.

Well you included many costs that are exaggerations and many off the mark prices as well as things that already come with a purchase of something else such as rent. The $1000 furnishings and $800 rent? Please, i've already looked at prices, a furnished studio i found at around 550-600 close to the strip. I already did the math as well. Give or take 10k a year in living and food expenses total and i think that's being nice, probably will be much less than that maybe 8k.

Quote: Hunterhill

ME,I agree with most of what you said,the one thing I have an issue with is that making 50k over several years is pretty good.For a part time player maybe it's ok
But I don't think someone should even consider being a full time Ap unless they can make 100k+ per year,otherwise I think you should stick to a normal
Job.
.

First off i didnt say making 50k was good and idk why you assumed i made that from AP play. 50k was from saving from two jobs and AP play. I had an investment in the markets where i was up 25k at my highest point over 3 years and i never sold and ended up losing 5k so that kind of set me back a bit, more mentally than anything because I could've used an extra 25k.

First off, i didnt play full time really just here and there. I only logged about 650 hours since July 2015. And with a mix of spreads and bet sizes im only up 25k. My AP play EV is over 100k a year if i keep grinding it out though, so i guess it fits your description of 100k. And with the games in vegas, i simmed a conservative estimate of about 90k a year playing about 1000 hours.

Quote: MathExtremist

Nothing wrong with wanting to work for yourself. Not everyone is suited for an office job, and recognizing that about yourself early shows great self-awareness. I've worked for myself for over a decade. The difference between me and an AP is that I create tangible goods and services and my clients want my business. Advantage play is the opposite -- it doesn't produce anything and the casinos definitely don't want you to be there.

If you have the mental aptitude for advantage play, you also have the aptitude to be a successful entrepreneur in a field where detail orientation and numeracy are valuable. Have you considered starting your own business or solo consulting practice? Or even making investments as a professional trader? I would strongly advise that over any form of advantage play. You should run the numbers on expected revenues. You've made $50,000 over a several year period, yes? I believe that's pretty good for an AP, but it's not very much revenue if you're running a business. What's your average hourly rate considering all the time you spend on your business (commuting to plays, actually playing, scouting, doing research, etc.)? A solo entrepreneur serving almost any white-collar business should have no problem earning more than $50,000 per year, and without any risk of losing a bankroll.

A BA in business administration should be a great head start, too -- I didn't have any business background, I studied CS and math, so I had to figure everything out by myself. But I work for myself and make my own hours too. I also work at home so I have no commuting costs, and the only time I need to travel is for client visits.

One last point. With AP, there is no meaningful upside, no chance for a home run. Your only source of revenue is playing and there are no residuals. Unless you're going to write books or teach seminars, if you stop playing, you stop earning. If you create something as part of a business, on the other hand, you can sell or license it for a much larger amount than it cost you to create. I have personally done that, and that's the entire basis of the tech startup industry. As a business major this isn't news to you. The point is, that option isn't even available with AP.

So what do you want to do with your life? Count cards and make a little money, or start a real business and make real money?

I expect a lot of pushback from the APs on this site who do make a lot of money on the grounds that making that money qualifies AP as a "real business", but it's inarguable that the average successful AP earns less money than the average successful entrepreneur. And so does the most successful AP compared to the most successful entrepreneur. Which would you rather be?

Appreciate the detailed response and time you took to write all of this. Yes I've looked into the markets and did well at first except i never sold my stock. I bought a stock and was up 25k profit on my 30k investment over 3 years and then got some bad news and ended up losing 5k, so not the end of the world, but I was pretty mad about it. I held the stock for those 3 years waiting for the good news, but it ended up with bad news from the company. Oh well, probably a bit naive as well since it was my first investment in the markets.

I do keep an eye on the markets though and the next time I invest it's going to be high growth high dividend yield companies. Could use a guaranteed check every 3 months when earnings are announced. I think solid dividend stocks that pay a high yield are the key to successful investing the market these days.

Type "Las Vegas" into your GPS and start driving. If it's over 1000 miles spend a week making the trip stopping at the cities and sites you want to see. If you're good at blackjack in all areas you can definitely make it. If you have weaknesses but are willing to make the effort to learn what it takes, you can make it.

Come up with a conservative first year estimate, something like spending $25,000 while earning $35,000. If you reach that, you can take the larger bankroll and extra experience and start earning more. If you fall short, you continue to learn. And if you make the time and effort there's a good chance you can do even better.

Worst case for a living arrangement would be a weekly for under $200 with all utilities and furnishings included until you can find something better. If you're playing close to full time hours, the casinos will cover most of your food budget. You still need to tip.

Should be well over 50 good games in the Las Vegas valley, add trips to Laughlin, Pahrump, Primm, Mesquite there may be 100 or so places to play. Don't burn out any of them. Learn how to play a large spread at a $5 table, and learn how to maximize value from $25 tables. Play shoe and pitch. Very important: spread both ways. Learn other ways to earn money in casinos: Video poker is probably easiest, slots, sports, poker, even bingo are other possibilities. Hustle for comps. Look for as many angles as you can. Eventually you'll find what you're most comfortable with and what works best for you.

You should be eligible for Medicaid. Look for regular jobs with a w2 two to three days per week. There are ones out there that are flexible without much stress.

I would offer to buy you a drink, but I think a jar peanut butter and gallon of milk might be worth more to you.

Quote: ZenKinG

First off i didnt say making 50k was good and idk why you assumed i made that from AP play. 50k was from saving from two jobs and AP play. I had an investment in the markets where i was up 25k at my highest point over 3 years and i never sold and ended up losing 5k so that kind of set me back a bit, more mentally than anything because I could've used an extra 25k.

First off, i didnt play full time really just here and there. I only logged about 650 hours since July 2015. And with a mix of spreads and bet sizes im only up 25k. My AP play EV is over 100k a year if i keep grinding it out though, so i guess it fits your description of 100k. And with the games in vegas, i simmed a conservative estimate of about 90k a year playing about 1000 hours.

If you notice the capital ME at the beginning of my post I was responding to MathExtremist the ME was shorthand. I should have quoted his comments to avoid the confusion.

I would suggest you take your $50,000 and think about the part of the Country you would most like to live. Then go to BizBuySell.com and find a business in a field you would enjoy. There are plenty of positive cash flow businesses available.

You will then live where you want, be doing something you enjoy and have something of value. You will also have a much better chance of being successful and probably a decent chance of creating additional future successes.

ZCore13

I just helped a couple apply for Medicaid. I don't know if it's just a Nevada thing, but you agree, under penalty of perjury, to report any and all gambling winnings.
I asked for clarity and was told it you win $100 one day but lose $200 the next, your gambling winnings were $100 and you have to report it. I forget the exact figure that you are allowed to win in a month but I think it was a bit under $1200. Anything over that and you lose your eligibility. Surprisingly, money in the bank or stocks don't count. Dividends count, unless you reinvest them.
There are some $600 a month studios a few blocks off the strip, but if you are not broken, a crack ho or a meth freak, they are best avoided.

I have to ask, if you simmed you'd be making $90 an hour, on a $50K bankroll, what was your risk of ruin?

Quote: billryan

I just helped a couple apply for Medicaid. I don't know if it's just a Nevada thing, but you agree, under penalty of perjury, to report any and all gambling winnings.
I asked for clarity and was told it you win $100 one day but lose $200 the next, your gambling winnings were $100 and you have to report it. I forget the exact figure that you are allowed to win in a month but I think it was a bit under $1200. Anything over that and you lose your eligibility. Surprisingly, money in the bank or stocks don't count. Dividends count, unless you reinvest them.
There are some $600 a month studios a few blocks off the strip, but if you are not broken, a crack ho or a meth freak, they are best avoided.

I have to ask, if you simmed you'd be making $90 an hour, on a $50K bankroll, what was your risk of ruin?

Well with 50k and utilizing my plan of attack, yeah im making 91 an hour with a 0.2% ROR playing the games I plan to play and that's assuming a conservative 80/rounds an hour. I most likely wont always get to play the games I want to play or I wont be able to log the hours I plan on logging. So I would say conservatively maybe 80 an hour and maybe 0.4% ROR. The problem is I have to account for lets say 5k of living and food expenses before my EV can really kick in for sure so im technically playing with a 45k bankroll and higher risk, but I would still say it's less than 1%.

I still got another month at home of playing great games so hopefully i can get to around 55k, which would then have me playing to a 50k bankroll in the sim. I might just move to PA though in the short term the more I think about it though before I head out west. Might be the smartest choice.

Quote: ZenKinG

Turns out after reading all the Pennsylvania regulations for the game of blackjack, PA is in for a little surprise.

For those who don't know, here is the backstory to all of this. Im a competent counter and have been counting for many years. I have all the software and use wong halves with close to full indices. I started to finally take it serious this last year after building a nice bankroll through working two jobs and after 500 or so hours I have had good results even though I'm a little bit under EV. With all this being said, there has been these two stores, which i simply cant beat no matter what I do. After consistently losing at Harrahs in Philly and Sands in Bethlehem and asking the pit boss to show me all the cards face up to see if they have an honest game, they all simply refused and said to take it up with gaming if I think they're cheating.

Well it turns out after reading the PA regulations, "UPON REQUEST" a player may ask to see the cards face up after they are put face down and the casino must comply. This also goes for anytime the table empties and the cards are taken out of the shoe and from the discard rack and laid face down on the table. If the first player that gets there asks to see it face up, they MUST comply. This also goes for when they take out the cards from the shuffle machine, you can request an inspection; albeit though it doesnt go into detail on this last regulation regarding if you can see it face up or not when they take it out of the shuffle machine, but nonetheless the other two instances you can request to see it face up. So anyone who is very skeptical like me and who also plays in PA, print out these regulations and give it to the pit boss and TELL them you demand to see all the cards face up and if not you will report them to gaming. Oh also for anyone that repeatedly gets told by dealers and pit bosses that you must cut at least a deck with the cut card, i got a little nice regulation also for you to give them that says they are wrong and only need to cut off AT LEAST 10 CARDS, not one full deck. Here are the regulations. Enjoy.

633a.4. Opening of the table for gaming.
(a) After receiving one or more decks of cards at the table, the dealer shall
inspect the cards for any defects. The floorperson assigned to the table shall
verify the inspection.
(b) After the cards are inspected, the cards shall be spread out face up on the
table for visual inspection by the first player to arrive at the table. The cards shall
be spread in horizontal fan shaped columns by deck according to suit and in
sequence.

633a.5. Shuffle and cut of the cards
(g) If there is no gaming activity at a Blackjack table which is open for gaming,
the cards shall be removed from the dealing shoe and the discard rack and
spread out on the table face down unless a player requests that the cards be spread
face up on the table. After the first player arriving at the table is afforded an
opportunity to visually inspect the cards shall be:
(1) Mixed thoroughly by a washing of the cards, stacked, then shuffled and
cut in accordance with this section, if there is no automated shuffling device in
use.
(2) Stacked and placed into the automated shuffling device to be shuffled,
if an automated shuffling device is in use. The batch of cards already in the
shuffler shall then be removed. Unless a player requests otherwise, the batch of
cards removed from the shuffler does not need to be spread for inspection and
reshuffled prior to being dealt, if the automated card shuffling device stores a
single batch of shuffled cards inside the shuffler in a secure manner.

633a.5. Shuffle and cut of the cards
(d) The player or dealer making the cut shall place the cover card in the stack
at least ten cards from the top or bottom of the stack. Once the cover card has
been inserted, the dealer shall take all cards on top of the cover card and place
them on the bottom of the stack. The dealer shall then insert the cover card in the
stack at a position at least 1/4 of the way in from the bottom of the stack. The
stack of cards shall then be inserted into the dealing shoe for commencement of
play.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bump up. This is eating at me. You cant help but feel casinos rig the shoe with a stacked deck of either a surplus of low cards or removal of big cards. I think it's time to bring out the regulations and place it on the felt and let me see every card at these 2 stores
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Appreciate the tough love. I hear where you're coming from. But in regards to perfect play, im pretty close to it.
-------------------------------------------------------------
One of these two stores, i've seen them fan the cards face up when changing it, the other store i never seen them do it. They also dont show me the cards after I requested they show me the cards face up. They put the cards face down and refuse to show me at these two stores. This was until I found out that Pennsylvania regulations say a player may request to see the cards face up if he asks the pit boss to show him, so right then and there these casinos violated regulations and im gonna hit them hard with it next time i go there. I dont care if it brings attention to myself, do these casinos even know the law or just make it up as they go because they think the patrons are too stupid to even ask questions? Im gonna print out the regulations and lay it on the felt.

May the force be with you.

Quote: TomG

Type "Las Vegas" into your GPS and start driving. If it's over 1000 miles spend a week making the trip stopping at the cities and sites you want to see. If you're good at blackjack in all areas you can definitely make it. If you have weaknesses but are willing to make the effort to learn what it takes, you can make it.

Come up with a conservative first year estimate, something like spending $25,000 while earning $35,000. If you reach that, you can take the larger bankroll and extra experience and start earning more. If you fall short, you continue to learn. And if you make the time and effort there's a good chance you can do even better.

Worst case for a living arrangement would be a weekly for under $200 with all utilities and furnishings included until you can find something better. If you're playing close to full time hours, the casinos will cover most of your food budget. You still need to tip.

Should be well over 50 good games in the Las Vegas valley, add trips to Laughlin, Pahrump, Primm, Mesquite there may be 100 or so places to play. Don't burn out any of them. Learn how to play a large spread at a $5 table, and learn how to maximize value from $25 tables. Play shoe and pitch. Very important: spread both ways. Learn other ways to earn money in casinos: Video poker is probably easiest, slots, sports, poker, even bingo are other possibilities. Hustle for comps. Look for as many angles as you can. Eventually you'll find what you're most comfortable with and what works best for you.

You should be eligible for Medicaid. Look for regular jobs with a w2 two to three days per week. There are ones out there that are flexible without much stress.

I would offer to buy you a drink, but I think a jar peanut butter and gallon of milk might be worth more to you.

First off, i wont ever be playing rated, so the idea of food comps wont happen. I just value my name more than any comp they could give me in a low comp game such as blackjack. Maybe in the 80s, it was still worth playing rated. But to be fair, the vlaue of playing unrated these days is also starting to go out the window because if they really want to they can get your name and picture without needing a players card.

Quote: billryan

50,000 bankroll.
Minus $400 driving cross country
Minus $400 car registration( mandatory within 30days)
Minus $100 new drivers license
Minus $800 first months rent
Minus $800 security deposit
Minus $500 two weeks hotel while apartment hunting.
Minus $1000 furnishings
Minus $200 kitchen utensils,
Minus $100 apartment necessities.
I moved here in May with the same sort of idea. That was my budget, and in almost every case, I underestimated it. I pay $875 base rent, which translates into a $1033 check each month.
Most rents don't include gas or electric( $175 in summer, $70 in winter).
Cell phone is $40-$50
Car insurance cost me more in Henderson than it did in NYC
Food is cheaper, but I live alone and spend over $200 in groceries, despite eating out fairly often.
Health insurance is not cheap.
Just a word to the wise.
Yes, you can find cheaper places to live, but considering you'll be dealing in a lot of cash.

As an advantage blackjack player, expect little to no comps. You won't be disappointed.

I agree that's a bit over inflated, however you left out hookers and blow so it's probably close.

Quote: billryan

50,000 bankroll.
Minus $400 driving cross country
Minus $400 car registration( mandatory within 30days)
Minus $100 new drivers license
Minus $800 first months rent
Minus $800 security deposit
Minus $500 two weeks hotel while apartment hunting.
Minus $1000 furnishings
Minus $200 kitchen utensils,
Minus $100 apartment necessities.
I moved here in May with the same sort of idea. That was my budget, and in almost every case, I underestimated it. I pay $875 base rent, which translates into a $1033 check each month.
Most rents don't include gas or electric( $175 in summer, $70 in winter).
Cell phone is $40-$50
Car insurance cost me more in Henderson than it did in NYC
Food is cheaper, but I live alone and spend over $200 in groceries, despite eating out fairly often.
Health insurance is not cheap.
Just a word to the wise.
Yes, you can find cheaper places to live, but considering you'll be dealing in a lot of cash.

As an advantage blackjack player, expect little to no comps. You won't be disappointed.

I agree that's a bit over inflated, however you left out hookers and blow so it's probably close.

What do you think is over inflated? No one in their right mind is going to live in a flop house if they can avoid it? Not when they expect to make serious money.
I included nothing for gas or entertainment. Both those can be substantial, since he says he will play unrated

Which is better? Aggressive wonging in an aggressively alert atmosphere of 6:5 OR playing BS in a 3:2 no mid shoe entry game?
Which of those two is least likely to get your id faxed to nearby casinos?

Ever think of growing tomatoes in Las Vegas. I'm serious. Spend ONE hour researching the business aspects of it in an area where entire buildings indeed entire shopping centers are vacant and in bankruptcy?

Get a card.

Get a girl. Otherwise it will be hookers; you don't want that.

Quote: FleaStiff

Which is better? Aggressive wonging in an aggressively alert atmosphere of 6:5 OR playing BS in a 3:2 no mid shoe entry game?
Which of those two is least likely to get your id faxed to nearby casinos?

Ever think of growing tomatoes in Las Vegas. I'm serious. Spend ONE hour researching the business aspects of it in an area where entire buildings indeed entire shopping centers are vacant and in bankruptcy?

Get a card.

Get a girl. Otherwise it will be hookers; you don't want that.

You want him to start growing tomatoes...... and start his own business. He has his mind set on BJ. I somehow don't feel he will take your suggestions.

How long until your casino opens? I think casinos make more than people counting black jack. At your age, this is a normal phase. Life has no meaning but staying on the merry-go-round, so might as well do what you're going to do. Without playing black jack and living at home, it will be easy for you to recover your fifty thousand.

This is funny. This is like the Highlander movies. All the people go to Vegas, drawn to play bj, and they're slowly eliminated, until "there can only be one". Sounds like a dying field for a young man. Even if you're successful, you're giving up life ev to do so. I imagine Yoda sighing. Isn't the saying if you have to ask, you're probably ready?

Logic is what ME says. But sometimes you have to go with your gut. You have obviously been trying to get to this point for a few years. You are young. You have a dream. Most will fail. But some succeed. Give it a try.

Practical advice---- Get the 'blackjack only' part out of your mind. I have seen how Axel/DJATC/others use casinos, and read Kewlj's tales. There are lots of other opportunities in casinos that will be 'low hanging fruit'. I know Axel has helped many who have come to Vegas to start an AP career. PM him.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

How long until your casino opens? I think casinos make more than people counting black jack. At your age, this is a normal phase. Life has no meaning but staying on the merry-go-round, so might as well do what you're going to do. Without playing black jack and living at home, it will be easy for you to recover your fifty thousand.

This is funny. This is like the Highlander movies. All the people go to Vegas, drawn to play bj, and they're slowly eliminated, until "there can only be one". Sounds like a dying field for a young man. Even if you're successful, you're giving up life ev to do so. I imagine Yoda sighing. Isn't the saying if you have to ask, you're probably ready?

How are you giving up your life doing it? You can pick your hours, days off and time you spend doing it.

Quote: SOOPOO

Logic is what ME says. But sometimes you have to go with your gut. You have obviously been trying to get to this point for a few years. You are young. You have a dream. Most will fail. But some succeed. Give it a try.

Practical advice---- Get the 'blackjack only' part out of your mind. I have seen how Axel/DJATC/others use casinos, and read Kewlj's tales. There are lots of other opportunities in casinos that will be 'low hanging fruit'. I know Axel has helped many who have come to Vegas to start an AP career. PM him.

Ok, but here's the part I don't understand because I was never an AP: What are the career prospects for an AP who goes "legit" after deciding he's done spending all his time in casinos siphoning EV from leaky games?

Are there any such ex-APs on this forum? What did you do after you stopped playing, and how did that work out? Specifically, how do you explain the gap on a resume to a prospective employer or business partner? Is it as straightforward as saying "I was a professional gambler for 2 (or 5 or 10) years before deciding to get out of the business" ?

It's all well and good for a man in his mid-20s to have a short-term plan for living cheaply in a studio apartment with no girlfriend while "living the dream" of playing +EV blackjack. But what's the longer-term plan, and what does the transition involve? I doubt very much he wants to be a man in his mid-40s living cheaply in a studio apartment with no girlfriend...

This isn't last century anymore, where you could count on a job to last longer than you did. These days, every businessman worth his salt has an exit plan in mind. What does that exit plan look like for the card-counting business contemplated here?

Also, there's no rule against using your head and your gut at the same time. I started my business on the side while I had full-time jobs. I didn't transition into full-time consulting until I knew the business could support itself. I highly recommend the same to our young friend. There's nothing wrong with having two jobs while you figure out which one you like better. It's never wisest to put all one's eggs in the same basket if you have an alternative.

Living in the $500 a month studios, he'll be able to have a different girl every night, all for the price of a ten dollar rock. Plenty to choose from.

A successful AP should have no problem banking money and when it's time to retire, they should have cash to open their own business. A decent sports bar can be bought for $300,000 in Vegas, half that elsewhere.

Quote: billryan

A successful AP should have no problem banking money and when it's time to retire, they should have cash to open their own business. A decent sports bar can be bought for $300,000 in Vegas, half that elsewhere.

And off all the people you'very ever met in your life, how many have done this? Actually, I'll extend it to anyone you'very ever met and anyone you'very ever heard about?


ZCore13

Quote: billryan

Living in the $500 a month studios, he'll be able to have a different girl every night, all for the price of a ten dollar rock. Plenty to choose from.

A successful AP should have no problem banking money and when it's time to retire, they should have cash to open their own business. A decent sports bar can be bought for $300,000 in Vegas, half that elsewhere.

I have no advice to provide for someone who desires the "different girl every night" lifestyle. If the price of a "ten dollar rock" is actually ten dollars, I doubt I've ever spent that little on an actual date. I haven't been dating for many, many years so I'm undoubtedly out of touch with that scene, but twenty years ago, you couldn't even get a proper dinner out with drinks for $10. Fast food and fortified wine doesn't count.

You qualified the statement "should have no problem banking money" with the AP being successful. In your estimation, what percentage of APs are successful enough to develop a $300,000 bankroll over, say, a 10 year period (is that too short? too long?) and then, when they retire, simply convert that to working capital for a new business?

For the APs who have done something similar, how has getting commercial credit been? For my part, I've had a bank do a deep dive into my business the last time I entered into discussions about lending. Commercial banks are very touchy these days. I'd suspect that attempting to move from an all-cash business like blackjack or marijuana into a business that requires commercial credit would prove difficult. That's a risk that should be factored into whatever longer-term plans are being drawn up.

Quote: MathExtremist

Ok, but here's the part I don't understand because I was never an AP: What are the career prospects for an AP who goes "legit" after deciding he's done spending all his time in casinos siphoning EV from leaky games?

Are there any such ex-APs on this forum? What did you do after you stopped playing, and how did that work out? Specifically, how do you explain the gap on a resume to a prospective employer or business partner? Is it as straightforward as saying "I was a professional gambler for 2 (or 5 or 10) years before deciding to get out of the business" ?

It's all well and good for a man in his mid-20s to have a short-term plan for living cheaply in a studio apartment with no girlfriend while "living the dream" of playing +EV blackjack. But what's the longer-term plan, and what does the transition involve? I doubt very much he wants to be a man in his mid-40s living cheaply in a studio apartment with no girlfriend...

This isn't last century anymore, where you could count on a job to last longer than you did. These days, every businessman worth his salt has an exit plan in mind. What does that exit plan look like for the card-counting business contemplated here?

Also, there's no rule against using your head and your gut at the same time. I started my business on the side while I had full-time jobs. I didn't transition into full-time consulting until I knew the business could support itself. I highly recommend the same to our young friend. There's nothing wrong with having two jobs while you figure out which one you like better. It's never wisest to put all one's eggs in the same basket if you have an alternative.

I know very few successful Advantage Players that actually want to retire. They might slow down or just stop playing because they can't physically do it anymore.

It would be like someone wanting to retire from a hobby like fly fishing and getting paid for it. Would you retire from watching movies, watching sports, the internet, or whatever you like doing if you got paid for it? Advantage Players don't normally have an exit plan because it's not something they want to exit from. For example someone like Doyle Bronson.

The OP should know within a few years if he's going to make it or not. If he's doing it right 4 or 5 years from now and he wants to move on then he should be in a good position to do some of the things you suggested, like going into business for himself.

If he fails a few year gap isn't going to be a big deal.

I'm not suggesting he should or shouldn't. I'm skeptical for a few reasons and I seen some red flags already, but there's always exceptions.

It doesn't seem as if he's asking us if he should or shouldn't, he's just asking for advice how best to do it.
Since you're not an AP you really have nothing to offer him as far as AP advice.

In one of your prior posts I seen one of the biggest myths people keep repeating about AP, but its best I just let that myth be told.

I know several Aps that after 10 years or so,invested their earnings in stocks and real estate.
Most of them never totally retired from Ap but still play occasionally when something really good comes up.

Again I think most people would be better off following MathExtremist's advice.

Quote: AxelWolf

How are you giving up your life doing it? You can pick your hours, days off and time you spend doing it.

I thought he was doing this ft, moving to Vegas, abandoning his mother and father, no longer doing anything else to support himself.

There are so many bar rescue episodes where people thought buying a bar was easy with no experience and there goes everything.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

I thought he was doing this ft, moving to Vegas, abandoning his mother and father, nlonger doing anything else to support himself.

Is living at home with your parents a life? I don't know, I moved out and got my own place at 17. I didn't have to, I just wanted to(Mainly because I didn't feel conformable bringing girls to spend the night in my room).

He's giving up his job and security for an adventure and possible better opportunity.

I have a feeling he's got Vegas bright lights big dreams fever. I suggest giving his parents half his roll before he heads out to Vegas and see how it goes for a while.

Quote: vegas

You want him to start growing tomatoes......

NO. I do not. I want him to use his degree in analyzing the business opportunity in moving to Vegas and having a fall-back entrepreneurial activity which will not in any way interfere with his wonging but would be a good way to force him to consider alternatives to 100 percent wonging in case his first few weeks result in a 'you are too greedy, my friend' visit from the shift manager.

He obviously has stars in his eyes regarding 'the AP life' but had better check out what that really is.

Quote: FleaStiff

Which is better?
Aggressive wonging in an aggressively alert atmosphere of 6:5 OR playing BS in a 3:2 no mid shoe entry game?

I'm curious about this question. He can play 3:2 and not be backed off or he can wong and risk it. Why take a risk if its not all that much money?

Wonging is just not going to be realistic most times in vegas anymore. I know what CBjN says, and even that grim picture someon those 3:2 tables are closed or spread out into different pits. Better to play off the top and wong out aggressively

Good advice: learn other stuff. Diversify. Or maintain an easy side job. One thing to consider, if you are in your 20s, is that you're banking on this ish being around 40 years or more from now. 2056. Is that the way things are going? People seem to think every area of AP, from sports to tables to poker to machines has gotten harder in just the last 20 years.

I know most about poker. Some planed on making a living at 7stud, way less than 40 years ago. Poof!

Become gay. Seems to be much cheaper and easier.

I'd strongly advise doing something else, but I know decent jobs no longer grow on trees. ME's advice is good on paper, but, at the same time, he is very, very smart and seemingly, very driven. Starting successful consulting businesses out of nothing is probably not much easier than AP. But, he is right, that the rewards are better.

I am extremely skeptical of the possibility of becoming a trader, though. Especially with 50k. I've met a few over the years and asked them to explain their edge, and I've always concluded that they'd just been lucky so far. Not that it's impossible, but, I think it's for a special few and you'd probably know if you were among them.

But on the third hand, if the job market is tough with a newish degree and having just held a job, it's gonna be brutal if you want to jump back in 5 years later.

Come to some WoV functions, and/or figure out other ways to network.

Quote: MathExtremist

Ok, but here's the part I don't understand because I was never an AP: What are the career prospects for an AP who goes "legit" after deciding he's done spending all his time in casinos siphoning EV from leaky games?

Look up the name Bobby Baldwin, a great example of a full time gambler that has done well for himself after gambling.

Quote: AxelWolf

I know very few successful Advantage Players that actually want to retire. They might slow down or just stop playing because they can't physically do it anymore.

I hope that's true for the OP and I hope that's true for you. I'm not psychologically suited to doing the same thing for my entire life. That's why I love my consulting business -- the gigs are always different. I taught myself how to count cards in college and quickly learned that I don't have the patience for it (or smoke tolerance). If he (or you) enjoy that, more power to you.

Quote:

It doesn't seem as if he's asking us if he should or shouldn't, he's just asking for advice how best to do it.
Since you're not an AP you really have nothing to offer him as far as AP advice.

It's absolutely true that I am not an AP, and I'm not offering AP advice. But I am an entrepreneur so I have entrepreneurial advice. If the OP is at the point in his life where he's "a free man with decisions to make" as his initial post stated, only an unwisely narrow view would focus those decisions on playing blackjack to the exclusion of all other revenue-generating entrepreneurial opportunities.

Quote:

In one of your prior posts I seen one of the biggest myths people keep repeating about AP, but its best I just let that myth be told.

I'll bite, what myth is that?

Quote: AxelWolf

Is living at home with your parents a life? .

Axel is 8 posts away from moving into
2nd place on the post count list. Just
a short way to go till he's number 1.
Well, short may be an exaggeration.

Do not mean to patronize by saying this. I think you should get a job valet parking in a non-casino hotel. Visible employment, rent payer, easy hours at least part time, great exercise when your main activity involves sitting on your ass, make some contacts. See what's around, meet some people.

Just a thought.

Quote: MathExtremist

I hope that's true for the OP and I hope that's true for you. I'm not psychologically suited to doing the same thing for my entire life. That's why I love my consulting business -- the gigs are always different. I taught myself how to count cards in college and quickly learned that I don't have the patience for it (or smoke tolerance). If he (or you) enjoy that, more power to you.

It's absolutely true that I am not an AP, and I'm not offering AP advice. But I am an entrepreneur so I have entrepreneurial advice. If the OP is at the point in his life where he's "a free man with decisions to make" as his initial post stated, only an unwisely narrow view would focus those decisions on playing blackjack to the exclusion of all other revenue-generating entrepreneurial opportunities.

I'll bite, what myth is that?

Hopefully for his sake he would drift into other aspects of AP. There's a multitude of different things available everything inducing, bingo, slots, VP, roulette, keno, sports, online stuff that comes up you never seen before or could even imagine.... "the gigs ARE always different if you want. I would never suggest anyone play the KJ way. Hopefully he wouldn't either. However enjoyable to him, I'm fairly certain he's one of a very, very few AP's that actually think that way. Not to mention something unknown could happen killing counting opportunities.

I'm sure there's quite a few successful AP's here that originally started with just counting but now do that least.

One of the biggest myths about AP's is t if they have what it takes to be a successful AP they can run a fortune 500 company or some crap like that.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: ZenKinG

May the force be with you.

This may have stung the OP a little but you have to admit it was funny. Do not underestimate living in Vegas and living an AP lifestyle. So many road blocks and pit falls that I can't begin to list. Emotions are always difficult to keep in check for sure. I have never seen anyone not make some sort of mistake over and over. I am not talking about mistakes on your plays in the Casinos. I am talking about mistakes in the real game when you deal with so called friends or ladies or whatever curveballs come down the pipe. This lifestyle is sort of like golf... it isn't always the best player per say but the best player who knows how to recover from good shots that get bad bounces into deep rough or sand traps or off of the trees into the water or woods. How good are you at handling heat and the people who have the power to make or break you with DNI lists or other things of this sort? I am not one of these APs making 100k - 500k per year but I clear 30k to 50k a year in cash and hardly ever pay for food. I mean less than 5% of my total food actually comes out of cash. I hardly see heat and I grease the wheels that need to be greased. Are you planning on actually paying the Tax Man? Remember this is a life long marathon that keeps changing as time goes on. Oddly enough sometimes you have other APs these days taking your picture with cell phones inside of Casinos asking about information on you. That is pretty sick in my book and I get a little paranoid about that more so than what the Casinos have on me. Anyways... I mostly deal with lower limit machines so you won't have to worry about me at the BJ table with you. I have thought about taking it back up but I quit it almost 20 years ago when I got put on the flat bet after a few days of play. I realized they watch the Pit like hawks and I enjoy how better I am treated playing Machines. I know for a fact that you can make some serious coin playing BJ in this town still but it is not easy as I have read on forums on the web but if you stick with it I think you could do it. The odds are way against you but it is possible. I know for a fact that a square job or running your own business will be more profitable in the long run but it is clear that you have the bug already and no matter what anyone says it is highly unlikely that a cure is in your future. Like the hustler said: "Money won is twice as sweet as Money earned"!

Quote: beachbumbabs

Do not mean to patronize by saying this. I think you should get a job valet parking in a non-casino hotel. Visible employment, rent payer, easy hours at least part time, great exercise when your main activity involves sitting on your ass, make some contacts. See what's around, meet some people.

Just a thought.

Again he's NOT asking what people think he should do with his life.

If I say I want to buy a automobile, "what kind should I buy, an SUV, truck or car?"
Please don't tell me to buy a bus pass.

If he said he wanted to be an attorney and hes had 2 years of school with good grades, would you tell him to go learn something totally different?