Stealth
Stealth
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 36
Joined: Nov 25, 2015
December 8th, 2015 at 9:47:43 AM permalink
In June 2015 I reviewed the CBJN survey of casinos to understand how pervasive the infiltration of 6:5 payoffs on blackjack has become.

In Las Vegas, some 54 out of 85 (64%) casinos now have some of their blackjack tables with payoffs of 6:5.

In the Midwest it was only 15 out of some 159 casinos (9%).

In the West (not including Vegas) it was 44 out of 246 casinos (18%).

In the East it was 7 of 42 casinos (17%).

In the South it was 15 of 61 casinos (25%).

No question Las Vegas has led the way in the change. What appears to have started at the low limit tables has now begun to inch up to the higher limit tables. While it is apparent that management understand the higher limit players (that is those who are knowledgeable) will not play the 6:5 games.

Most of the casinos have limited the infiltration to their low limit games, another prime way of taking advantage of the lower level players.

Friends do not let friends play 6:5 blackjack! Complain vigorously to your friendly casino management!!!!!!!!!!!
Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!
kewlj
kewlj
  • Threads: 216
  • Posts: 4635
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
December 8th, 2015 at 10:02:17 AM permalink
Yeah, sadly 6:5 has grown in Vegas this year. For several years it was mostly limited to the evil empire properties (Caesar's Entertainment), and even there it was only the lower limit tables. The big 'crack' in the wall came late last year when Venetian/ Palazzo switched to 6:5. Multiple MGM properties followed this year.

The good news is that while when you read CBJN it looks like more of Vegas is now 6:5, it really is limited to the strip. and I think there is a fairly safe 'firewall'. The downtown properties are not likely to switch as this will allow them to create a new market, of low end players (much like Reno).

Vegas has always been two very distinct places for blackjack anyway. You have the touristy places, the strip and downtown and then you have the local type places spread all over town. The touristy places, especially the strip have made the decision to further gouge the drunken tourist types, figuring they will play anything and there is a new batch of them every few days.

The local places are more in the model of most casinos in the rest of the country in that they rely on repeat business, so they can't gouge the customers as much, but much 'compete' for that customer by offering better conditions. In Vegas we clearly see this on table game rules like blackjack as well as video poker pay tables and to a less visible extent, slot paybacks.
muleyvoice
muleyvoice
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 135
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
December 8th, 2015 at 10:14:57 AM permalink
Not a question of high limit players being smarter. More like they expect a better break for being a bigger bettor. Same reason take is lower usually on dollar slots versus penny slots. Hear same complaints about third base taking a dealers break card at both limits.

As for a boycott, it started in 2004. How's that working, fellas ?
teliot
teliot
  • Threads: 43
  • Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
December 8th, 2015 at 10:24:26 AM permalink
Quote: muleyvoice

As for a boycott, it started in 2004. How's that working, fellas ?

I believe the 6/5 payout for blackjack first appeared in August, 2002 at the Flamingo. Here is the first article on it that I know about:

http://grochowski.casinocitytimes.com/article/avoid-6-5-single-deck-blackjack-games-820

Calls for a boycott started right away. In this 2003 article, many big names came out against it, including Mike:

http://lasvegassun.com/news/2003/nov/13/taking-a-hit-new-blackjack-odds-further-tilt-advan/

As for how it is doing, full tables, 20%+ hold.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
mcallister3200
mcallister3200
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 3617
Joined: Dec 29, 2013
December 8th, 2015 at 10:55:33 AM permalink
Although certainly more widespread in Vegas than anywhere else, I'm seeing it more in other markets than CBJN indicates, likely due to CBJN being updated much more often/accurately in Vegas and AC than other markets.
One example is Hollywood St Louis. CBJN indicates St. Louis market updated 7/15 but no indication of 6:5 at STL casinos, it's always a little sad/surprising to see in markets that depend on a local regular customer base. I had noticed one table that is usually $5-$10 with a 6:5 felt previous to July, I imagine you could probably add another 5-10% to each market outside of Vegas/AC and it would be accurate.

It's sad but think best hope is that spread of 6:5 will slow or be limited to under $25 tables. I always hope for the best, and while it's not a law of nature that it must do so, blackjack rules have trended worse for decades. The spread of gaming to many new markets mitigates it to some factor, but I'm not sure it's enough to stave off deteriorating conditions forever. Best vary the skill set of build up that nest egg If counting on playable traditional blackjack for an income.
DMSCR
DMSCR
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 774
Joined: Apr 15, 2012
December 8th, 2015 at 10:56:38 AM permalink
Back in the days pre-Thorp it was one deck with a 2:1 payout. Then things became 3:2 multi-deck. Then 6:5 started around early 2000s. Now it is spreading all around like a virus.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
December 8th, 2015 at 11:04:44 AM permalink
It doesn't matter. Most blackjack players stick around until they lose all of their money anyway. 6:5 just expedites this process.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 2155
Joined: Aug 1, 2011
December 8th, 2015 at 11:08:36 AM permalink
Quote: DMSCR

Back in the days pre-Thorp it was one deck with a 2:1 payout. Then things became 3:2 multi-deck. Then 6:5 started around early 2000s. Now it is spreading all around like a virus.

I never knew that it used to pay 2:1, except for home games.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
RaleighCraps
RaleighCraps
  • Threads: 79
  • Posts: 2501
Joined: Feb 20, 2010
December 8th, 2015 at 11:09:42 AM permalink
I took cruises on Royal Caribbean and Holland America last month.
Both ships had 3:2 and 6:5 BJ. You had to pay attention to the placard on the table to know which game you were sitting at. Most of the people did not seem to care which table they were sitting at. I would walk in, and the 6:5 table would be full, while the 3:2 table would have one person at it.

The 3:2 was $10, while the 6:5 was $5, so that was part of it. On Holland, all of the games were 6D, hand shuffled. On RC the 6:5 was shuffler, while the 3:2 was hand shuffled.

On the Holland cruise, I had only seen the 3:2 on two tables, so I was not checking for 6:5. I sat down, cashed in, and the person next to me ($20 bet) got a BJ on the 4th hand. I saw the $24 payout, said, "Sorry, color me out. I would not have sat down if I had seen the 6:5 sign." OTOH, I was up $5 when I cashed out. Went to the table across from this one, and played 3:2.

So many casino goers have NO CLUE
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
DMSCR
DMSCR
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 774
Joined: Apr 15, 2012
December 8th, 2015 at 11:10:53 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

It doesn't matter. Most blackjack players stick around until they lose all of their money anyway. 6:5 just expedites this process.



No argument there!!!! Then they come over to my table calling over their drunk cigar chomping buddies and slow down/interrupt my game.

Also the most vapid crap thrown in complimenting these rip off bj tables is that Pleasure Pit pole dancing garbage. Casinos know what constitute human weakness and use it to their advantage. Adding insult to injury folks flock to these tables giving the casino to exploit them further.

Quote: RaleighCraps



So many casino goers have NO CLUE



That is a good thing sad to say. It keeps the casino in business for those who are in the know where the casino thinks he/she is one of the many suckers too.
DMSCR
DMSCR
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 774
Joined: Apr 15, 2012
December 8th, 2015 at 11:13:37 AM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

I never knew that it used to pay 2:1, except for home games.



This was way before anyone's time. Well actually way before mine. It was around during the 1950s or so. I was surprised as you when I found this out when I read Fortune's Formula. That was where I found out about the 2:1 payout. This was pre-Thorp mind you where everyone thought BJ was upbeatable.

So in retrospect even at 3:2 BJ folks were still being ripped off!
teliot
teliot
  • Threads: 43
  • Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
December 8th, 2015 at 11:54:14 AM permalink
Quote: DMSCR

This was way before anyone's time. Well actually way before mine. It was around during the 1950s or so.

The game that was analyzed by the "Four Horsemen" in 1956 already had 3:2 blackjack. See "rule 7."

http://blackjack-square.com/_site/images/random/Baldwin_OptimalStrategyBlackjack.pdf

The research for this article was pre-Thorp by at least 7 years. They would not have chosen this "3-to-2" rule unless it was already common.

Can you give a concrete reference for your source for blackjack paying 2-to-1, as a rule in common use in casinos?
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
ThatDonGuy
ThatDonGuy
  • Threads: 118
  • Posts: 6408
Joined: Jun 22, 2011
December 8th, 2015 at 11:57:05 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

Yeah, sadly 6:5 has grown in Vegas this year. For several years it was mostly limited to the evil empire properties (Caesar's Entertainment), and even there it was only the lower limit tables. The big 'crack' in the wall came late last year when Venetian/ Palazzo switched to 6:5. Multiple MGM properties followed this year.


I remember the single-deck tables on the upper level at NYNY being 6:5 when I was there in 2009. I thought 6:5 had spread to most single-deck games on the Strip by then.

Quote: DMSCR

This was way before anyone's time. Well actually way before mine. It was around during the 1950s or so. I was surprised as you when I found this out when I read Fortune's Formula. That was where I found out about the 2:1 payout. This was pre-Thorp mind you where everyone thought BJ was upbeatable.


Did ties push with 2-1? I am like pretty much everyone else - every 2-1 game I had ever seen had ties going to the dealer.
teliot
teliot
  • Threads: 43
  • Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
December 8th, 2015 at 11:59:24 AM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Every 2-1 game I had ever seen had ties going to the dealer.

I have *never* seen a 2-1 game with ties going to the dealer.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
DMSCR
DMSCR
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 774
Joined: Apr 15, 2012
December 8th, 2015 at 12:02:05 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy



Did ties push with 2-1? I am like pretty much everyone else - every 2-1 game I had ever seen had ties going to the dealer.



From reading Fortune's Formula if you hit 21/BJ payout was 2:1. Insane. Not only that on a single deck! Remember that this was before Thorp wrote Beat the Dealer where every Joe and Tom were able to take advantage making the game beatable to the public. Don't know much about ties since the book didn't mention it.

Quote: teliot

The game that was analyzed by the "Four Horsemen" in 1956 already had 3:2 blackjack. See "rule 7."

http://blackjack-square.com/_site/images/random/Baldwin_OptimalStrategyBlackjack.pdf

The research for this article was pre-Thorp by at least 7 years. They would not have chosen this "3-to-2" rule unless it was already common.

Can you give a concrete reference for your source for blackjack paying 2-to-1, as a rule in common use in casinos?



The 2:1 payout was mentioned in Fortune's Formula by William Poundstone. From what I remember reading it wasn't offered at every table at every casino in Vegas. They were found in Old Vegas.
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 2155
Joined: Aug 1, 2011
December 8th, 2015 at 1:29:18 PM permalink
Quote: DMSCR

From reading Fortune's Formula if you hit 21/BJ payout was 2:1. Insane. Not only that on a single deck! Remember that this was before Thorp wrote Beat the Dealer where every Joe and Tom were able to take advantage making the game beatable to the public. Don't know much about ties since the book didn't mention it.



The 2:1 payout was mentioned in Fortune's Formula by William Poundstone. From what I remember reading it wasn't offered at every table at every casino in Vegas. They were found in Old Vegas.


I have read Fortune's Formula I don't recall it ever mentioning bj paying 2:1.
I have never seen a reference to this anywhere except in 2:1 bj promos.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
DMSCR
DMSCR
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 774
Joined: Apr 15, 2012
December 8th, 2015 at 1:44:42 PM permalink
Hmmm... I need to read it again for clarification.
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
  • Threads: 37
  • Posts: 3616
Joined: May 22, 2013
December 8th, 2015 at 3:47:31 PM permalink
Quote: RaleighCraps

I took cruises on Royal Caribbean and Holland America last month.
Both ships had 3:2 and 6:5 BJ. You had to pay attention to the placard on the table to know which game you were sitting at. Most of the people did not seem to care which table they were sitting at. I would walk in, and the 6:5 table would be full, while the 3:2 table would have one person at it.

The 3:2 was $10, while the 6:5 was $5, so that was part of it. On Holland, all of the games were 6D, hand shuffled. On RC the 6:5 was shuffler, while the 3:2 was hand shuffled.

On the Holland cruise, I had only seen the 3:2 on two tables, so I was not checking for 6:5. I sat down, cashed in, and the person next to me ($20 bet) got a BJ on the 4th hand. I saw the $24 payout, said, "Sorry, color me out. I would not have sat down if I had seen the 6:5 sign." OTOH, I was up $5 when I cashed out. Went to the table across from this one, and played 3:2.

So many casino goers have NO CLUE


Hey Raleigh!
Could you maybe write a little more detailed summary about the rules, mins/max, shufflers etc on RC and Holland cruises? Yes, you can detail the craps conditions as well ;-) I haven't seen any write ups on Holland, BTW. Thx
Actually wouldn't mind hearing your impressions on how the two lines compared outside of the casino as well. Do I remember you going on a Norwegian as partly comped deal thru Caesars, or was that a couple other guys?
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
RaleighCraps
RaleighCraps
  • Threads: 79
  • Posts: 2501
Joined: Feb 20, 2010
December 8th, 2015 at 7:25:22 PM permalink
Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Hey Raleigh!
Could you maybe write a little more detailed summary about the rules, mins/max, shufflers etc on RC and Holland cruises? Yes, you can detail the craps conditions as well ;-) I haven't seen any write ups on Holland, BTW. Thx
Actually wouldn't mind hearing your impressions on how the two lines compared outside of the casino as well. Do I remember you going on a Norwegian as partly comped deal thru Caesars, or was that a couple other guys?



Answered in existing cruise thread here.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
Sandybestdog
Sandybestdog
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 336
Joined: Feb 3, 2015
December 12th, 2015 at 9:20:40 AM permalink
I went to Atlantic City last weekend. On a busy Saturday night there were a few tables that were 6:5 with $10 minimums. There were other ones that were 3:2 with $15 minimums. I guess that's not too bad for a Saturday night, just have to play $15 minimum. The next day I saw a 6:5 table right night next to a 3:2 both with $10 minimiums. The deck size and all other rules seemed to be the same. These were not the single deck games. The sad fact is most people don't care. They're more concerned about getting that triple match on their 21+3 bet. I mean if you want want to gamble for fun, you should at least attempt to lose the least possible. That way you can gamble longer. Maryland, Pennsylvania and Delaware all offer better rules than AC. Unfortunately in Maryland the casinos are convincing the regulators that worse blackjack rules will mean higher revenues and therefore more tax money. They are also trying to lower their slots payout by 2%. Of course Maryland politicians have never seen a tax hike they didn't like.
muleyvoice
muleyvoice
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 135
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
December 12th, 2015 at 11:21:02 AM permalink
Aint it wonderful how the Maryland Jockey clubs is now funded by the casinos. Monopoly for 150 years, never gave a race goer a break, and now the casinos have to fund the racetracks.
As I said in my earlier post, If you don't have 6/5 BJ in your local casino, don't worry, it's on the way.
Greasyjohn
Greasyjohn
  • Threads: 135
  • Posts: 2178
Joined: Dec 8, 2013
December 12th, 2015 at 11:28:49 AM permalink
I've read a lot about the history of blackjack, and have never heard of a 2:1 payout for a blackjack being common anywhere, except as a promotion at a particular casino.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
  • Threads: 327
  • Posts: 9618
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
December 12th, 2015 at 1:57:10 PM permalink
I can't square these two things:

*casinos get away with 6:5 because so few players know any better

*casinos feel they have to put exploitable BJ games out there, single deck even, or their customers won't play
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
  • Jump to: