Stealth
Stealth
Joined: Nov 25, 2015
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December 8th, 2015 at 9:47:43 AM permalink
In June 2015 I reviewed the CBJN survey of casinos to understand how pervasive the infiltration of 6:5 payoffs on blackjack has become.

In Las Vegas, some 54 out of 85 (64%) casinos now have some of their blackjack tables with payoffs of 6:5.

In the Midwest it was only 15 out of some 159 casinos (9%).

In the West (not including Vegas) it was 44 out of 246 casinos (18%).

In the East it was 7 of 42 casinos (17%).

In the South it was 15 of 61 casinos (25%).

No question Las Vegas has led the way in the change. What appears to have started at the low limit tables has now begun to inch up to the higher limit tables. While it is apparent that management understand the higher limit players (that is those who are knowledgeable) will not play the 6:5 games.

Most of the casinos have limited the infiltration to their low limit games, another prime way of taking advantage of the lower level players.

Friends do not let friends play 6:5 blackjack! Complain vigorously to your friendly casino management!!!!!!!!!!!
Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!
kewlj
kewlj
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
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December 8th, 2015 at 10:02:17 AM permalink
Yeah, sadly 6:5 has grown in Vegas this year. For several years it was mostly limited to the evil empire properties (Caesar's Entertainment), and even there it was only the lower limit tables. The big 'crack' in the wall came late last year when Venetian/ Palazzo switched to 6:5. Multiple MGM properties followed this year.

The good news is that while when you read CBJN it looks like more of Vegas is now 6:5, it really is limited to the strip. and I think there is a fairly safe 'firewall'. The downtown properties are not likely to switch as this will allow them to create a new market, of low end players (much like Reno).

Vegas has always been two very distinct places for blackjack anyway. You have the touristy places, the strip and downtown and then you have the local type places spread all over town. The touristy places, especially the strip have made the decision to further gouge the drunken tourist types, figuring they will play anything and there is a new batch of them every few days.

The local places are more in the model of most casinos in the rest of the country in that they rely on repeat business, so they can't gouge the customers as much, but much 'compete' for that customer by offering better conditions. In Vegas we clearly see this on table game rules like blackjack as well as video poker pay tables and to a less visible extent, slot paybacks.
Just say no to 6:5 Blackjack, Continuous shuffle machines and Blackjack the Forum. All are Negative expected value.
muleyvoice
muleyvoice
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
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December 8th, 2015 at 10:14:57 AM permalink
Not a question of high limit players being smarter. More like they expect a better break for being a bigger bettor. Same reason take is lower usually on dollar slots versus penny slots. Hear same complaints about third base taking a dealers break card at both limits.

As for a boycott, it started in 2004. How's that working, fellas ?
teliot
teliot
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
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December 8th, 2015 at 10:24:26 AM permalink
Quote: muleyvoice

As for a boycott, it started in 2004. How's that working, fellas ?

I believe the 6/5 payout for blackjack first appeared in August, 2002 at the Flamingo. Here is the first article on it that I know about:

http://grochowski.casinocitytimes.com/article/avoid-6-5-single-deck-blackjack-games-820

Calls for a boycott started right away. In this 2003 article, many big names came out against it, including Mike:

http://lasvegassun.com/news/2003/nov/13/taking-a-hit-new-blackjack-odds-further-tilt-advan/

As for how it is doing, full tables, 20%+ hold.
mcallister3200
mcallister3200
Joined: Dec 29, 2013
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December 8th, 2015 at 10:55:33 AM permalink
Although certainly more widespread in Vegas than anywhere else, I'm seeing it more in other markets than CBJN indicates, likely due to CBJN being updated much more often/accurately in Vegas and AC than other markets.
One example is Hollywood St Louis. CBJN indicates St. Louis market updated 7/15 but no indication of 6:5 at STL casinos, it's always a little sad/surprising to see in markets that depend on a local regular customer base. I had noticed one table that is usually $5-$10 with a 6:5 felt previous to July, I imagine you could probably add another 5-10% to each market outside of Vegas/AC and it would be accurate.

It's sad but think best hope is that spread of 6:5 will slow or be limited to under $25 tables. I always hope for the best, and while it's not a law of nature that it must do so, blackjack rules have trended worse for decades. The spread of gaming to many new markets mitigates it to some factor, but I'm not sure it's enough to stave off deteriorating conditions forever. Best vary the skill set of build up that nest egg If counting on playable traditional blackjack for an income.
DMSCR
DMSCR
Joined: Apr 15, 2012
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December 8th, 2015 at 10:56:38 AM permalink
Back in the days pre-Thorp it was one deck with a 2:1 payout. Then things became 3:2 multi-deck. Then 6:5 started around early 2000s. Now it is spreading all around like a virus.
Former and present WoV APs = Socially inept and washed up mental geriatrics.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
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December 8th, 2015 at 11:04:44 AM permalink
It doesn't matter. Most blackjack players stick around until they lose all of their money anyway. 6:5 just expedites this process.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
Joined: Aug 1, 2011
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December 8th, 2015 at 11:08:36 AM permalink
Quote: DMSCR

Back in the days pre-Thorp it was one deck with a 2:1 payout. Then things became 3:2 multi-deck. Then 6:5 started around early 2000s. Now it is spreading all around like a virus.

I never knew that it used to pay 2:1, except for home games.
Don't teach an alligator how to swim.
RaleighCraps
RaleighCraps
Joined: Feb 20, 2010
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December 8th, 2015 at 11:09:42 AM permalink
I took cruises on Royal Caribbean and Holland America last month.
Both ships had 3:2 and 6:5 BJ. You had to pay attention to the placard on the table to know which game you were sitting at. Most of the people did not seem to care which table they were sitting at. I would walk in, and the 6:5 table would be full, while the 3:2 table would have one person at it.

The 3:2 was $10, while the 6:5 was $5, so that was part of it. On Holland, all of the games were 6D, hand shuffled. On RC the 6:5 was shuffler, while the 3:2 was hand shuffled.

On the Holland cruise, I had only seen the 3:2 on two tables, so I was not checking for 6:5. I sat down, cashed in, and the person next to me ($20 bet) got a BJ on the 4th hand. I saw the $24 payout, said, "Sorry, color me out. I would not have sat down if I had seen the 6:5 sign." OTOH, I was up $5 when I cashed out. Went to the table across from this one, and played 3:2.

So many casino goers have NO CLUE
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
DMSCR
DMSCR
Joined: Apr 15, 2012
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December 8th, 2015 at 11:10:53 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

It doesn't matter. Most blackjack players stick around until they lose all of their money anyway. 6:5 just expedites this process.



No argument there!!!! Then they come over to my table calling over their drunk cigar chomping buddies and slow down/interrupt my game.

Also the most vapid crap thrown in complimenting these rip off bj tables is that Pleasure Pit pole dancing garbage. Casinos know what constitute human weakness and use it to their advantage. Adding insult to injury folks flock to these tables giving the casino to exploit them further.

Quote: RaleighCraps



So many casino goers have NO CLUE



That is a good thing sad to say. It keeps the casino in business for those who are in the know where the casino thinks he/she is one of the many suckers too.
Former and present WoV APs = Socially inept and washed up mental geriatrics.

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