Blackjack game with 0.75% player advantage

Quote: Wizard

Let me say that I feel somewhat to blame. I would not do the chargeback, even if you feel it is justified. Rule 20 or not, chargebacks are the one thing the casinos hate most about the players and they have been known to share lists of players who have done them. If you want to keep a good reputation as an online player, I would never do one, especially over just $200.

Reviewing the entire thread, I do not think you are to blame. You always stated the situation clearly - and if players had won at the rate implied by an EV= +0.0075, they would not be offering to give you a finder's fee on their winnings.

I think you and your new boss are to be commended for putting the site on your blacklist. That is a service to the community and the right thing to have done. Bravo!

Quote: mustangsally

for what exactly?
me gaining 2 pounds this week?
no, i think not

did you tell your wife about this?
what did you tell your wife?
(remember Venus and Mars)
Men are From ?, Women are From ?

?=6

it has been entertaining
to say the least (at least one 2)

Is there a reason this person is allowed to post on this forum?

Quote: sabre

Is there a reason this person is allowed to post on this forum?

Been wondering the same thing myself.

Quote: sabre

Is there a reason this person is allowed to post on this forum?

I think it's because every once in a blue moon there's some relevant statistical information being shared, but yes, most of it is just gibberish.

Quote: sabre

Is there a reason this person is allowed to post on this forum?

She is a math god and this has technically been said to be a math forum.
She adds more value here than most and most add more than I.
It's all how you read her posts she's sarcastic, cheeky and wickedly cleaver.

Quote: sabre

Is there a reason this person is allowed to post on this forum?

That is borderline insulting, which is not allowed on this forum. Please consider this an official warning to be mindful of the "no personal insults" rule.

Sally is not only one of the best math minds we have on the forum but has an adorable sense of humor. Many times somebody has presented a math or gambling, which she answered by writing a program to solve plus taking her own time to format and explain the answer. It is also interesting to note she is the only female member to stick around a long time with neither getting banned nor promoted.

Regarding the refund request, thank you to those who have stood up for me. I indeed mentioned the opportunity with the best of intentions, that we might benefit from a good game. I admitted from the start that I wasn't familiar with that casino and they had not earned an endorsement.

Normally what "Wizard protection" means is that if the player clicks through our affiliate link and has a dispute then we will help to mediate it. Teddy is a good example of this service in his dispute with Las Vegas Casino Online.

Given that I've jumped ahead to blacklisting the casino, I frankly don't have much bargaining power over them any longer. However, I've yet to see what their response will be.

Whatever happens, if anybody feels that me or this site personally let them down with directing them to this casino, then I take that to heart. I don't like letting people down, even if my intentions were for the best. At this point, I'd prefer to not entertain a lot of "what if" questions and let's let this play out another week or so. Thank you for your patience.

Quote: sabre

Is there a reason this person is allowed to post on this forum?

thank you for your unique observation



but just for you i will remove all my posts here

Quote: mustangsally

but just for you i will remove all my posts here

it will take some time
during the Angels game should be enough

I hope you won't do that. You add a lot to this forum and I would hate to see you take any of your contributions away.

Quote: Wizard

Sally is not only one of the best math minds we have on the forum

thank you

Quote: Wizard

but has an adorable sense of humor.

wow
what an opinion
i like adorable
thank you again

Quote: Wizard

<snip>plus taking her own time<snip>.

yes, i have lots of time


the bottom line
i have lots of time

Quote: mustangsally

thank you for your unique observation
i say it is because, i could be wrong, hehe
is that

(a reason)
i
am
allowed
too

entertainment has value "sabre"

but just for you i will remove all my posts here

it will take some time
during the Angels game should be enough

Oh god, please don't do that. You do that, then everyone loses. It's better to just ignore some posts sometimes, imo.

Quote: sabre

Is there a reason this person is allowed to post on this forum?

The same reason you are!

Quote: mustangsally

thank you for your unique observation
i say it is because, i could be wrong, hehe
is that

(a reason)
i
am
allowed
too

entertainment has value "sabre"

but just for you i will remove all my posts here

it will take some time
during the Angels game should be enough

Please do not remove your posts. They are entertaining and informative and always help me to smile. It sometimes takes me awhile to figure some of them out but everyone needs a good puzzle from time to time. Would not have found the Vi Hart website without you!

She's not gonna remove her post's people. It appears I may have to hold a seminar on how 2 recognize sally's sarcasm.
Step one learn to read recognize and understand what a sallycasm is.

Kind of figured that, but it was also meant to show support for a member well versed in math and fun to read.

Sally-baby is plenty entertaining, even without the subtitle, hey hey.

Quote: mustangsally

but just for you i will remove all my posts here

!support

And its not like we have a surplus of female members and we need to thin the herd.

Quote: rainman

She's not gonna remove her post's people. It appears I may have to hold a seminar on how 2 recognize sally's sarcasm.
Step one learn to read recognize and understand what a sallycasm is.

You might be right, but she definitely knows how to make a script to nuke her own posts. I'm sure she could do it a lot faster than I could for myself. I'm rusty at programming to say the least. :(

Quote: tringlomane

You might be right, but she definitely knows how to make a script to nuke her own posts. I'm sure she could do it a lot faster than I could for myself. I'm rusty at programming to say the least. :(

I use ALT+F4. Somebody wrote that and told me it's to speed up my Starcraft, and I didn't know crap about computers back then.

Sally, keep posting

I still say you talk in riddles, but then again there are those here who like to solve puzzles. I guess you write for them.

Quote: djatc

I use ALT+F4. Somebody wrote that and told me it's to speed up my Starcraft, and I didn't know crap about computers back then.

It's all about that F10-E-Q or Alt-QQ in WC III.


What was your APM on SC? I'm guessing high 300's. Am I close? Ur not even 1337 bro.

After unsubscribing from their mailing list, I continue to get emails from them. Reported for spam.

I think the thread moving down this far with no replies shows a lot of patients... Has there been any decision about the OP stating "With the Wizard Protection" and the fact that they are now a blacklisted site??

It's got us all in a tough spot. It's only a couple hundred bucks, and my intent is NOT to make anyone feel bad, but I haven't played at an online casino/poker/etc in probably 5-6 years, but I signed up within 30 minutes of reading the OP and especially seeing the protection clause. I trust Mike, and if he told me to bet the sun wouldn't come up tomorrow, I'd probably do so thinking an eclipse or something that he figured out with some crazy math and an excel spreadsheet =).

Does "Wizard Protection" imply some sort of monetary insurance?

What are you looking for? I have never seen anywhere that wizard protection means anything. I'm confused.

Quote: Romes

I think the thread moving down this far with no replies shows a lot of patients... Has there been any decision about the OP stating "With the Wizard Protection" and the fact that they are now a blacklisted site??

It's got us all in a tough spot. It's only a couple hundred bucks, and my intent is NOT to make anyone feel bad, but I haven't played at an online casino/poker/etc in probably 5-6 years, but I signed up within 30 minutes of reading the OP and especially seeing the protection clause. I trust Mike, and if he told me to bet the sun wouldn't come up tomorrow, I'd probably do so thinking an eclipse or something that he figured out with some crazy math and an excel spreadsheet =).

Is it on the warning list or blacklist.

Quote: Romes

I think the thread moving down this far with no replies shows a lot of patients... Has there been any decision about the OP stating "With the Wizard Protection" and the fact that they are now a blacklisted site??

It's got us all in a tough spot. It's only a couple hundred bucks, and my intent is NOT to make anyone feel bad, but I haven't played at an online casino/poker/etc in probably 5-6 years, but I signed up within 30 minutes of reading the OP and especially seeing the protection clause. I trust Mike, and if he told me to bet the sun wouldn't come up tomorrow, I'd probably do so thinking an eclipse or something that he figured out with some crazy math and an excel spreadsheet =).

The casino is on the blacklist now.

My thoughts are that any people who signed up in good faith under the Wizard Player Protection have a right to be made whole. Mike basically called out the casino for being totally corrupt (something the players surmised fairly quickly amongst ourselves). And he's asked us to not do chargebacks, which would be the only other form of redress besides getting a full refund from the casino (not gonna happen). I'd take a discount on my amount, even, at this point.

If Mike is an honorable guy -- which he is -- he'll take care of his players. I plan to ask him about it, but I think he's on vacation right now.

I leave it to others to decide if compensation is to be done, but in the matter of clearing up whether, say, Teddy is a real person deserving to, say, withdraw without further ado any money he still has there ... I mean, come on, enough time has gone by.

Seems the more patient everyone is in hearing back the more it just starts to fade away? =/

Charge it back absent an immediate promise for a full refund. Crooked gaming sites don't deserve anything less.

Let me explain that the Wizard guarantee means that if there is a problem with the casino AND the player clicked through a Wizard link then we will try to help arbitrate as a last resort if there are any disputes. We have an open line of communication with the casino. It is my understanding they have at least fixed the "wheel" straight problem and wilds not paying on reel 1 of slot games. The incredible losses in blackjack will be a thornier problem.

Right now we are not accepting individual grievances but treating all Wizard players in a class action kind of manner. Please be patient as this will take time to work through. I'll update you as I have more information.

Thank you for the update, Mike. I didn't know anything at all was being done, but I'm glad to hear they're fixing some of the obvious "mistakes." Their blackjack game is rigged, and I don't see them "refunding" the players. The best I could see them doing is giving "free play" to the rigged game(s), which is essentially worthless. A charge back might be the players best solution I suppose.

Quote: Romes

A charge back might be the players best solution I suppose.

My advice is to do a charge-back only if you don't mind being put on a player blacklist. From the online casino point of view, there is no greater sin than doing a charge-back. They share lists of players who have done them and other undesirable behavior. Any player on such a list will be find themselves very unwelcome at any casino privy to the list.

I'd like to report that the problem with the wheel straight (A2345) not paying and wilds not counting as wild in reel one of slot games, at least eighties night, have been fixed. As evidence, I present these screenshots, which were taken 7-15-15. Click on them for a larger version.





In waiting for the wheel straight I noticed the auto-hold advice was frequently wrong. In particular with a suited 10 and high card it would advise keeping the 10 only, as in this example.



A less serious error, but still bad, is with three high cards, containing two suited, it held all three.



I'd like to say that a bad auto-hold is not a blacklistable offense as most Internet casinos with auto-hold don't do it properly. When playing online one has to lower his expectations.

This is an important post. I am requesting either the user name and/or full real name of all Wizard players who played at Mission2Game. We are in negotiations for restitution to all players who played after clicking the link in the initial post. Providing me your user name will not find you to any settlement we work out.

So, to all affected M2G Wizard players, please PM me your user name.

Quote: Wizard

This is an important post. I am requesting either the user name and/or full real name of all Wizard players who played at Mission2Game. We are in negotiations for restitution to all players who played after clicking the link in the initial post. Providing me your user name will not find you to any settlement we work out.

So, to all affected M2G Wizard players, please PM me your user name.

Personally I don't expect anything back. I knew what I was getting into.If they are offering a settlement then ok I'll accept itc(will it come with a new M2G buy in bonus? (-; ).


It only took $200+bonus money and a interesting run at red/black double up to realize I wasn't confident enough to believe it was actually random. I know that under normal circumstances running bad is meaningless. But everything just wasn't adding up. Since you don't have much to go on when playing unregulated casinos online, you have to go with your gut. Being overly cautious online is usually the best method. On the flip side, you have some guys who scream foul every time their dumb system fails or they lose a few hands.
list.
the Wizard guarantee: Never in a million years did I ever think this was a money back guarantee. I noticed some people interpreted it as such. If that was the case, I would've loaded up(assuming it didn't come directly out of your pocket)

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Most of the WOV members probably lost a majority of their money on the BJ. Are we confident that the Blackjack is indeed gaffed? If they are claiming the BJ wasn't gaffed why would they negotiate anything? If the jury is still out what testing and evidence is needed to figure this out?

I assume once they fix all the problems they will be taken off the blacklist. Again how will we know if the BJ is fair?
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This is all sad because I think it's a big problem and many more "trusted sites" have problem. Affiliate sites are just adding online casinos without ever actually testing them. Far to quickly they are adding them to the top of the featured casinos list. It takes far to much BS to actually add them to a black list. IMO everything is being done ass backwards when it comes to "reputable casinos". Online casinos should start at the bottom and earn their way to the top.


The only reason all this came to light is because a bunch of WOV members all played around the same time and had issues. Had it not been for that, they probably would have never corrected anything. Didn't they originally claim that's how their machines work? Certainly their slot machines should have been holding way over expectation. An auditing company or the casinos auditing should've picked this up over a short period of time.

Had it only been one unknown person complaining, I'm certain nothing would have happened. Everyone would've just assumed he was a crackpot or just not cared.
IRC Someone on LBC complained about the cheating slot playoffs and various things long before. Why wasn't anything looked into then?

Wow, an AxelWolf post with very few grammatical/spelling errors. Has hell frozen over?


Wizard, I bought in for $200, played some, lost (not all).

Like AlexWulf said, I knew what I was getting into. If this rebate or whatever you speak of is coming from your pocket, I'm not interested. If it's coming from some settlement or the actual M2G casino or whatever, then let me know [just post here?] and I'll send you my information.

Did anyone else get a text message from these boneheads today? I unsubscribed to their mailing list a long time ago, and I got this text message to my phone this afternoon.

"Hello! Come online now at www.mission2game.com and get 777% bonus and 100 free spins. This is a limited time available just today!"

To give an update, I'm afraid talks have still gone cold on a Wizard player settlement.

Not only do I get Emails from them but phone calls too offering me bonuses. Personally, I find this rather intrusive.

Quote: Wizard

]Not only do I get Emails from them but phone calls too offering me bonuses. Personally, I find this rather intrusive.

Emails and text messages are intrusive. Phone calls go to the next level. Is that even legal?

I've gotten a few texts and phone calls. Meh.

Quote: AxelWolf

This is all sad because I think it's a big problem and many more "trusted sites" have problem. Affiliate sites are just adding online casinos without ever actually testing them. Far to quickly they are adding them to the top of the featured casinos list. It takes far to much BS to actually add them to a black list. IMO everything is being done ass backwards when it comes to "reputable casinos". Online casinos should start at the bottom and earn their way to the top.

Someone please turn this into a reality (not necessarily Axel) because I'm absolutely sick of that clown casinomeister running the lead on "trusted sites".

Quote: Neutrino

Someone please turn this into a reality (not necessarily Axel) because I'm absolutely sick of that clown casinomeister running the lead on "trusted sites".

Most online casino watchdog , accounting, player advocate affiliates or whatever the situation is, start out with good intentions. "I'll never do this or do that, I'll always protect the players" bla, bla, bla. Once the money starts rolling in, and each casino you add is worth a substantial amount of money. All that player protection goes out the window, especially when they are faced with a decision, where standing up for a player will cost them a casino and many thousands. If you choose to be a true players advocate you won't make much.

Time for an update.

There has been real progress on this. First, I'm told that M2G has given refunds to affected slot players. This has been verified by one forum member. They say that no Wizard players were affected by the A2345 bug. Refunds are said to be fully cashable.

However, the vast majority of Wizard play was in blackjack. They have taken down their blackjack games this morning for a thorough examination. This examination should take about a week. If they find anything wrong then compensation will be made to affected players.

In short, talks are going very well and I hope to have reached an agreement for permanent removal from the blacklist by the middle of October. Meanwhile, they have been temporarily removed from the blacklist, pending the outcome of their blackjack investigation.

Quote: Wizard

Time for an update.

There has been real progress on this. First, I'm told that M2G has given refunds to affected slot players. This has been verified by one forum member. They say that no Wizard players were affected by the A2345 bug. Refunds are said to be fully cashable.

However, the vast majority of Wizard play was in blackjack. They have taken down their blackjack games this morning for a thorough examination. This examination should take about a week. If they find anything wrong then compensation will be made to affected players.

In short, talks are going very well and I hope to have reached an agreement for permanent removal from the blacklist by the middle of October. Meanwhile, they have been temporarily removed from the blacklist, pending the outcome of their blackjack investigation.

Well, it's good that they're working on things. Though to be stern and honest I would imagine they'd be willing to work with you and quite hard on their games after getting caught with their hand in the cookie jar...

The part about "no Wizard players were affected by the A2345 bug" is 100% incorrect. Myself and another member I'm friends with both posted in this thread about not being paid, emailed them screenshots of the hands, etc. So I know it affected at least the 2 of us, and I've got to imagine others.

When you say the slot players were refunded, do you mean their original buy in to the site was refunded to their cards? Is this something you're striving for in regards to blackjack/video poker players in your upcoming agreement?

Thanks for following through on the issue and giving updates.

Quote: Romes

The part about "no Wizard players were affected by the A2345 bug" is 100% incorrect. Myself and another member I'm friends with both posted in this thread about not being paid, emailed them screenshots of the hands, etc. So I know it affected at least the 2 of us, and I've got to imagine others.

I questioned them about this, saying I knew about the error through Wizard players, but didn't get a response to that particular point.

Quote:

When you say the slot players were refunded, do you mean their original buy in to the site was refunded to their cards? Is this something you're striving for in regards to blackjack/video poker players in your upcoming agreement?

I don't know how the refunds were calculated. I think the one forum member who checked saw $40 but I don't know the amount actually bet/lost on slots.

To be honest, I'm hoping they choose to quit parsing log files and just give every Wizard player a 100% refund on all money deposited. As far as I know, nobody made a withdrawal, so that deduction would be moot. We're not talking about a huge amount of money here, only about $5,000, which was all pure profit to them anyway.

Just read through this entire thread.

I think it's amazing that there are trustable online casinos out there after everything we've seen. I fail to see how, with many educated players out here, why hand logs weren't collected and examined for cheating. It seems that, for BBB for example, that the casino decided to (automatically based on an algorithm) flip a switch and turn south on her. Three other player's experiences were equally as terrible, a couple reporting fair play before turning south.

Meanwhile this casino is "thinking" about refunding player's money, and I am having a very difficult time understanding why that wouldn't be an admission of guilt. In which case, why would anyone ever endorse this casino at any time?

I realize that the Wizard is an advocate for gaming and he might be happy about getting the casino to properly pay for Wilds and to calculate a straight properly, but really, just blacklist the site in perpetuity and move on, because who knows about the rest of the site? If malicious software is sitting in Blackjack, it probably is in every other game out there, designed to turn a 1% game into an 8% game with the players chalking it up to bad luck.

And if the Wizard's seal is based on a small sample of game play that fits within a standard deviation or two, then what does that seal actually mean? Maybe it's in the best interest for the Wizard to invoke much more rigorous testing before giving a "seal" or perhaps perform a grading.

I realize it's your goal, Wizard to make sure that the internet gaming experience is fair, but when you run into many instances of definitive deception (the wilds, the A-5 straight) and a probably deception (blackjack) how can you possibly say you've turned them around by fixing these three things when the rest of the site could just be as bad?

Quote: boymimbo

I realize that the Wizard is an advocate for gaming and he might be happy about getting the casino to properly pay for Wilds and to calculate a straight properly, but really, just blacklist the site in perpetuity and move on, because who knows about the rest of the site?

Seconded absolutely.That outfit, and all associated with it should never be trusted or promoted again. To do so would encourage shysters and crooks to the industry safe in the knowlege that they could be forgiven for blatent cheating so long as they then reign it in to unprovably 'too good to be variance' good fortune.

Quote: boymimbo

I realize that the Wizard is an advocate for gaming and he might be happy about getting the casino to properly pay for Wilds and to calculate a straight properly, but really, just blacklist the site in perpetuity and move on, because who knows about the rest of the site? If malicious software is sitting in Blackjack, it probably is in every other game out there, designed to turn a 1% game into an 8% game with the players chalking it up to bad luck.

That's a good point. A couple reasons I'm not doing that.

1. There is a good chance that what is causing everybody to lose in blackjack is a bug. I'm all for punishing those who are deliberately cheating but in the case of a bug, I have to allow for redemption. Of course, the downside is that anybody could cheat and if caught say it was a bug. My response would be that I would have to look the details but ultimately it is better to err on the side of letting the guilty go free than punishing the innocent.

2. A lot of Wizard players are putting pressure on me to do something. We mean when we say that we have the backs of Wizard players. If you click through a banner on any Wizard site that leads to playing, we will stand behind you.

Quote: Wizard

That's a good point. A couple reasons I'm not doing that.
...
it is better to err on the side of letting the guilty go free than punishing the innocent.
...

Fair enough. But who are the innocent? Are they:

a. The casino operators who profit -- perhaps without malice, but nevertheless do profit -- from demonstrably gaffed apparatus?

b. The sharps who read this site and take a gamble after due consideration of the risks?

c. The squares who don't even know they've been fleeced?

(Answer key: a. NFW, b. Probably not, c. Emphatically yes.)

The local authorities where I live heavily fine retail businesses where the price at the register doesn't match the price marked on the shelf. And rightly so. It doesn't matter if the error is 'innocent'.

--TX

Quote: Wizard

That's a good point. A couple reasons I'm not doing that.

1. There is a good chance that what is causing everybody to lose in blackjack is a bug..

I don't think I recall a time when a "bug" led to everyone winning =). If it did the game would have been down in a day for "review." But everyone losing? Oh you just got unlucky... keep playing. It took months of complaints and blacklisting to "review" the game. I literally got a phone call from them and I told the guy I didn't think their games were fair and he said, and I QUOTE "I'm sorry you were unlucky. Your luck will surely change on your next deposit. You should keep playing to find out." This is like 1970's manipulation to try to get/steal money from people (which is what I'd expect from a 3rd party company based in who knows where 3rd world).

They definitely test to make sure games don't pay too much. Whether it's a bug or not there had to of been overall testing (run 100 million hands and give me a net result) that showed the game was BELOW expectation and that took someone in management going "Eh, it's not above, release the game." Now whether it was intentional, they thought it was a bug, or they chalked it up poor variance (after 100,000 hands or something), it doesn't matter. It shows a lack of responsibility and a willingness to put out a poor game to their players... Or worse case scenario, they're intentionally cheating their players.