Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26619
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
May 4th, 2014 at 4:32:12 PM permalink
The Hacienda, formerly home of the most liberal blackjack game in the greater Vegas area, with a house edge of 0.127%, has removed all table games.

The best game now follows these rules:

2 decks
Stand of soft 17
Double after split allowed
Re-splitting aces allowed
Surrender not allowed

Lots of MGM properties have such rules at mid to high-limit. So does the M.

If anybody is looking to take the "best blackjack" game award, now would be a good time to do so.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Buzzard
Buzzard
  • Threads: 90
  • Posts: 6814
Joined: Oct 28, 2012
May 4th, 2014 at 4:34:46 PM permalink
Guess this answers the often offered suggestion of a casino offer liberal rules to attract players.

NEVER SMARTEN UP A CHUMP
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Buzzard
Buzzard
  • Threads: 90
  • Posts: 6814
Joined: Oct 28, 2012
May 4th, 2014 at 4:39:39 PM permalink
On tablet can not link but I believe dotty just bought the Hacienda ???
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
tringlomane
tringlomane
  • Threads: 8
  • Posts: 6281
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
May 4th, 2014 at 4:55:28 PM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

On tablet can not link but I believe dotty just bought the Hacienda ???



They did. Which basically explains everything. They stripped the good video poker out of the place too.
Pokeraddict
Pokeraddict
  • Threads: 36
  • Posts: 786
Joined: Feb 21, 2012
May 4th, 2014 at 5:07:06 PM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

Guess this answers the often offered suggestion of a casino offer liberal rules to attract players.

NEVER SMARTEN UP A CHUMP



Riviera tried this angle. It had 3-2 single deck D1011 (which actually isn't as great as it sounds), single zero roulette and 1000x times craps. It all went away after about 6 months because they weren't attracting play with it.
Buzzard
Buzzard
  • Threads: 90
  • Posts: 6814
Joined: Oct 28, 2012
May 4th, 2014 at 5:08:19 PM permalink
The defense rests. Your witness, TOM !
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
RS
RS
  • Threads: 62
  • Posts: 8626
Joined: Feb 11, 2014
May 4th, 2014 at 5:38:13 PM permalink
The Riviera is also a total dump. And they have like 50c minimum BJ or something. Was gonna play there but got too scared to pull out $$$.
tringlomane
tringlomane
  • Threads: 8
  • Posts: 6281
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
May 4th, 2014 at 6:02:17 PM permalink
Quote: RS

The Riviera is also a total dump. And they have like 50c minimum BJ or something. Was gonna play there but got too scared to pull out $$$.



I almost ate the buffet there when the casino was dead on a Tuesday? night. I panicked and changed my mind when it looked like only one person was eating there. The buffet is now closed.
HowMany
HowMany
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 482
Joined: Mar 22, 2013
May 4th, 2014 at 6:07:09 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

I almost ate the buffet there when the casino was dead on a Tuesday? night. I panicked and changed my mind when it looked like only one person was eating there. The buffet is now closed.



That's funny as hell.
geoff
geoff
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 368
Joined: Feb 19, 2014
May 4th, 2014 at 6:39:33 PM permalink
I think El Cortez single deck is still better. I have it at a .18 HE over the .19 of MGM HL double deck.
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 5761
Joined: Sep 12, 2012
May 4th, 2014 at 6:44:47 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

The Hacienda, formerly home of the most liberal blackjack game in the greater Vegas area, with a house edge of 0.127%, has removed all table games.

The best game now follows these rules:

2 decks
Stand of soft 17
Double after split allowed
Re-splitting aces allowed
Surrender not allowed

Lots of MGM properties have such rules at mid to high-limit. So does the M.

If anybody is looking to take the "best blackjack" game award, now would be a good time to do so.



The MGM games do not allow re-splitting of aces. I am not sure about the M.

And, wouldn't the El Cortez single-deck be better than this?
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
May 4th, 2014 at 6:54:20 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26619
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
May 4th, 2014 at 7:19:37 PM permalink
Quote: Pokeraddict

Riviera tried this angle. It had 3-2 single deck D1011 (which actually isn't as great as it sounds), single zero roulette and 1000x times craps. It all went away after about 6 months because they weren't attracting play with it.



Their single-deck game was not that good. The standard Strip six-deck S17 rules are better. They still had the lousy odds on the prop bets in craps. Roulette was not European (lose half on even money bets on a zero). They asked me to endorse them as the best odds in Vegas and I refused.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26619
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
May 4th, 2014 at 7:36:59 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

The MGM games do not allow re-splitting of aces. I am not sure about the M.



I think you're right and just updated my survey. However, I think the M still allows re-splitting of aces in the game in question. For that reason, I now proclaim the M to have the single best blackjack game in Vegas. The house edge is 0.20% with basic strategy and a cut card. 0.12% the first hand after a shuffle with perfect composition-dependent strategy.

Quote:

And, wouldn't the El Cortez single-deck be better than this?



The basic strategy house is 0.30% in the El Cortez single-deck game. Players generally put too much emphasis on the number of decks.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
May 4th, 2014 at 7:47:58 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
  • Threads: 80
  • Posts: 7237
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
May 4th, 2014 at 7:54:32 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I still prefer the Kewadin Casino 6 deck game here. 3:2, S17, DOA, DAS, LS, double on split aces, $3 minimums.



I believe that's the best game I've ever personally played. I just wish it wasn't at a casino (casinos) 5 hours from nowhere.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
Swanson234
Swanson234
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 92
Joined: Mar 17, 2014
May 4th, 2014 at 7:55:52 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Quote: Wizard

The Hacienda, formerly home of the most liberal blackjack game in the greater Vegas area, with a house edge of 0.127%, has removed all table games.

The best game now follows these rules:

2 decks
Stand of soft 17
Double after split allowed
Re-splitting aces allowed
Surrender not allowed

Lots of MGM properties have such rules at mid to high-limit. So does the M.

If anybody is looking to take the "best blackjack" game award, now would be a good time to do so.



The MGM games do not allow re-splitting of aces. I am not sure about the M.

And, wouldn't the El Cortez single-deck be better than this?



Heard of them, never been there. Good for them. Do whatever their business model calls for. If people are gonna enjoy their "type of business" god bless them.
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 2155
Joined: Aug 1, 2011
May 4th, 2014 at 8:00:47 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I think you're right and just updated my survey. However, I think the M still allows re-splitting of aces in the game in question. For that reason, I now proclaim the M to have the single best blackjack game in Vegas. The house edge is 0.20% with basic strategy and a cut card. 0.12% the first hand after a shuffle with perfect composition-dependent strategy.



The basic strategy house is 0.30% in the El Cortez single-deck game. Players generally put too much emphasis on the number of decks.

Cbjn says the El Cortex game is 0.18 .Why is your number different than Wong's?
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26619
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
May 4th, 2014 at 9:00:38 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

Cbjn says the El Cortex game is 0.18 .Why is your number different than Wong's?



Correct me if I'm wrong (as always) but Wong's figures are based on a shuffle after every hand. My 0.30% assumes a cut card. Per my blackjack appendix 10, the cut card effect costs the player 0.11% in a single-deck game. 0.30% - 0.11% = 0.19%. Wong is at 0.18%. Since both figures are simulation based, that may explain the difference of 0.01%.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
kewlj
kewlj
  • Threads: 216
  • Posts: 4635
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
May 4th, 2014 at 9:10:52 PM permalink
What about the Longhorn/Bighorn games. I don't know how to figure it, but I am under the impression that the doubling on 3 cards along with the 5-2 suited blackjack payout, brings the house edge down to almost zero. Is this not considered because the suited blackjack payout is considered a promotion and not part of the ordinary rules? Every time I have played there it has been in effect. Of course it is only good for a $5 bettor, which I am not. lol
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 5761
Joined: Sep 12, 2012
May 4th, 2014 at 9:11:23 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

The basic strategy house is 0.30% in the El Cortez single-deck game. Players generally put too much emphasis on the number of decks.



Edit: read the Wizard's response.

They don't use a cut card in that game, so it's not really fair to ding them for the cut card effect :)

Also, composition-dependent basic strategy makes a real difference in SD. I would go with the optimal results, not the "realistic" ones.
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 2155
Joined: Aug 1, 2011
May 4th, 2014 at 9:12:40 PM permalink
Thanks that explains it.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
Pokeraddict
Pokeraddict
  • Threads: 36
  • Posts: 786
Joined: Feb 21, 2012
May 4th, 2014 at 11:07:58 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Their single-deck game was not that good. The standard Strip six-deck S17 rules are better. They still had the lousy odds on the prop bets in craps. Roulette was not European (lose half on even money bets on a zero). They asked me to endorse them as the best odds in Vegas and I refused.



I agree with you but for a $5 grind joint they were better than anything else on the Strip.
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 2001
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
May 5th, 2014 at 12:02:21 AM permalink
I thought the whole idea behind rivieras "good" games and $1000 slot loss rebate was to drum up business to be able to sell their place for more.
Scan
Scan
  • Threads: 91
  • Posts: 221
Joined: Sep 9, 2013
May 5th, 2014 at 3:01:40 AM permalink
When you say theses are MGM rules for "mid to HL'. What dollar amount are you referring to as mid
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
May 5th, 2014 at 4:44:48 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
May 5th, 2014 at 4:46:46 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26619
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
May 5th, 2014 at 6:21:29 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

What about the Longhorn/Bighorn games. I don't know how to figure it, but I am under the impression that the doubling on 3 cards along with the 5-2 suited blackjack payout, brings the house edge down to almost zero. Is this not considered because the suited blackjack payout is considered a promotion and not part of the ordinary rules? Every time I have played there it has been in effect. Of course it is only good for a $5 bettor, which I am not. lol



The "Horn" games are based on six decks and H17. The rule about doubling on any number of cards gets us to 0.48% only. There is a $5 bonus for a blackjack in diamonds, with a bet of at least $5. Since that bonus isn't based on the bet amount, I ignore that rule. However, for a $5 player, it would get the house edge down to 0.18%.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

RE: El Cortez

They don't use a cut card in that game, so it's not really fair to ding them for the cut card effect :)



How do the dealers know when to shuffle?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
HowMany
HowMany
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 482
Joined: Mar 22, 2013
May 5th, 2014 at 6:27:49 AM permalink
It's correct that El Co doesn't use a cut card, but the "cut card effect" is huge.

Whenever the count is negative, you can be sure they will deal out one more round. And when the count is high, they will shuffle.

If anyone has difficulty understanding the "cut card effect", you should play the single-deck game at El Co.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
May 5th, 2014 at 6:27:53 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 5761
Joined: Sep 12, 2012
May 5th, 2014 at 9:42:46 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Typically $50+, sometimes $25.



At MGM casinos, I have never seen it at $25 (and I am there a lot). I have seen it at $50 only once, at NYNY. It is usually $100 or $200, sometimes more.

Note that I am talking about the double-deck game. They also have a 6-deck game with slightly better rules (surrender is allowed) but the change to 6 decks more than makes up for the surrender rules so the house edge is still higher. It's still a good game though! The 6-deck game is often at $50 and it would not surprise me if it was sometimes at $25 too. But the DD game generally has 2x the minimum of the 6D game.
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 5761
Joined: Sep 12, 2012
May 5th, 2014 at 9:49:31 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

How do the dealers know when to shuffle?



I have only played it once, just to check it out (this was a long time ago). The table was full and they were dealing 2 rounds per deck. I was not playing for serious money (I would have to study up on single-deck basic strategy, not to mention the composition-dependent variations, even if I wasn't counting. I never play SD so I don't know them) There was absolutely no preferential shuffling going on; we were getting the same number of rounds each time, and I played for quite a long time.
AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
  • Threads: 67
  • Posts: 4300
Joined: Jan 5, 2012
May 5th, 2014 at 9:55:12 AM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

At MGM casinos, I have never seen it at $25 (and I am there a lot). I have seen it at $50 only once, at NYNY. It is usually $100 or $200, sometimes more.


The high limit room at Monte Carlo also has the DD game, and I have played it several times at $50 minimum.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
Mission146
Mission146
  • Threads: 142
  • Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
May 5th, 2014 at 10:14:13 AM permalink
Quote: RS

The Riviera is also a total dump. And they have like 50c minimum BJ or something. Was gonna play there but got too scared to pull out $$$.



How's that? I was there last month and I didn't think it was so bad. Colorful Craps Table, nice guys, lots of fun. One guy betting Green and took Odds on my Point of Four, which I made, tipped me $10!!! That was fun, but he pressed the PL and Odds on the Point of Ten I established on the next roll and lost, so I gave him the $10 back because I felt bad taking it at that point...

EDIT: Pursuant to PM request for clarification, by, 'Colorful,' I meant, 'Interesting.' My statement had nothing to do with the cultural/ethnic/racial backgrounds of anyone at the Craps table. Specifically, the entire table was Caucasian, except the crew, one of whom was Asian and one of the player may have been Half-Hispanic.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26619
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
May 5th, 2014 at 10:24:05 AM permalink
Quote: HowMany

Whenever the count is negative, you can be sure they will deal out one more round. And when the count is high, they will shuffle.



That would be much worse than a cut card.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I believe they use the "rule of six."



I would be interested to know who is right between you and HowMany. Seems to me a lot of dealers go on feel in single-deck games with no cut card. This can be a bad thing for players. For example, with three players there are often plenty of cards after two rounds for one more round. However, in such cases it is likely because a lot of big cards went out, leaving the small ones.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 5761
Joined: Sep 12, 2012
May 5th, 2014 at 10:47:43 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I would be interested to know who is right between you and HowMany. Seems to me a lot of dealers go on feel in single-deck games with no cut card. This can be a bad thing for players. For example, with three players there are often plenty of cards after two rounds for one more round. However, in such cases it is likely because a lot of big cards went out, leaving the small ones.



Well, that's the cut card effect :) I have always thought that the best way to explain the cut card effect to someone who already understands blackjack and card counting is that it's just a weak form of a preferential shuffle.

My experience was 2 rounds per deck, no matter what, at a full table. You should go check it out the next time you're downtown (assuming that you are welcome to play there?) Even if they are preferential shuffling on you, I think you can play for as little as $5/hand so it won't cost you much.
tringlomane
tringlomane
  • Threads: 8
  • Posts: 6281
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
May 5th, 2014 at 10:52:03 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I think you're right and just updated my survey. However, I think the M still allows re-splitting of aces in the game in question. For that reason, I now proclaim the M to have the single best blackjack game in Vegas.



A place owned by Penn gaming has a blackjack game with the lowest house edge in Vegas? This just does not compute. I would double check those rules if it hasn't been done recently.

I wish the M's video poker was this good; it's more in line with what you'd expect from Penn gaming for an off-strip. They do have 90+ comped beers at the bar with 9/6 ddb for dollars; it could be worse i suppose.

I think the place is very nice though. Hope to get back there soon and burn some marquee rewards.
Greasyjohn
Greasyjohn
  • Threads: 135
  • Posts: 2178
Joined: Dec 8, 2013
May 5th, 2014 at 10:52:05 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

The Hacienda, formerly home of the most liberal blackjack game in the greater Vegas area, with a house edge of 0.127%, has removed all table games.

The best game now follows these rules:

2 decks
Stand of soft 17
Double after split allowed
Re-splitting aces allowed
Surrender not allowed

Lots of MGM properties have such rules at mid to high-limit. So does the M.

If anybody is looking to take the "best blackjack" game award, now would be a good time to do so.



I used to play there often. Then, I just figured the 3/4 hour I would play there wasn't worth the gallon of gas and the one-hour round trip. The place was real relaxed, no heat, friendly dealers, great comps. You could get a 1-6 spread--they didn't seem to recognize the threat. Once I was playing their SD game and the dealer ran out of cards during the round. Had to shuffle to complete it.

The road from Boulder City to the Hacienda was a speed trap.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26619
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
May 5th, 2014 at 10:54:21 AM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

A place owned by Penn gaming has a blackjack game with the lowest house edge in Vegas? This just does not compute. I would double check those rules if it hasn't been done recently.



The CBJN reports the same rules I do. Maybe we're both out of date. I hardly ever go there.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
JimRockford
JimRockford
  • Threads: 12
  • Posts: 652
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
May 5th, 2014 at 12:13:00 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

At MGM casinos, I have never seen it at $25 (and I am there a lot). I have seen it at $50 only once, at NYNY. It is usually $100 or $200, sometimes more.

Note that I am talking about the double-deck game. They also have a 6-deck game with slightly better rules (surrender is allowed) but the change to 6 decks more than makes up for the surrender rules so the house edge is still higher. It's still a good game though! The 6-deck game is often at $50 and it would not surprise me if it was sometimes at $25 too. But the DD game generally has 2x the minimum of the 6D game.


I will defer to Vegas locals for current conditions, but I played the DD game at the Mirage in June 2013 on a Thursday and Friday and the minimum was at $25 most of the time. I played it at MGM in January 2014 for $100 on a weekday night, but a guy at the table was grandfathered at $50.
"Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things." -- Isaac Newton
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 5761
Joined: Sep 12, 2012
May 5th, 2014 at 12:17:07 PM permalink
Quote: JimRockford

I will defer to Vegas locals for current conditions, but I played the DD game at the Mirage in June 2013 on a Thursday and Friday and the minimum was at $25 most of the time. I played it at MGM in January 2014 for $100 on a weekday night, but a guy at the table was grandfathered at $50.



Maybe I'm just not playing at the right places. The places where it's been mentioned that it was $25 (Mirage and Monte Carlo) are places that I have never played since I've moved up to higher limits. (I'm not a local, but I'm in Vegas at least once a month).
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
May 5th, 2014 at 12:33:27 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
geoff
geoff
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 368
Joined: Feb 19, 2014
May 5th, 2014 at 12:34:50 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Maybe I'm just not playing at the right places. The places where it's been mentioned that it was $25 (Mirage and Monte Carlo) are places that I have never played since I've moved up to higher limits. (I'm not a local, but I'm in Vegas at least once a month).



Aria had it at $25 the last time I was there and it's also listed as $25 in the CBJN. If you're going to find it 3 o'clock on a weekday afternoon is usually the best time to try.
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 5761
Joined: Sep 12, 2012
May 5th, 2014 at 12:42:38 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

The good DD game was regularly $25 during the day a couple years ago. I tore it up on the trip with Teddy. He'll vouch for me and it.



I don't doubt you. I've just never seen it.

I tend to be there on weekends only, and perhaps not at the same casinos. I am pretty much never going to be in Vegas on a Wednesday afternoon (I live close enough that frequent weekend trips make more sense than occasional long trips)
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
May 5th, 2014 at 2:48:17 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
  • Jump to: