Future of low stakes games

New to the forum here, so apologies if I've missed a thread on this in the past.

Just returned from my first foray to Las Vegas in the past five years. A great time was had, but I was really disappointed to see the proliferance of 6:5 games at low stakes games. We usually play reds, anywhere from $5 minimum up to $15, if we're feeling it.

We had a tough time finding good games; the Wizard's blackjack survey was a great reference. We ended up at El Cortez for most of our play, simply because they had the best game at our level.

My question: In the future, do you think low-stakes games (for the sake of this conversation, anything less than a green chip minimum) will eventually all move down to 6:5? I'd be really disappointed in that.

It's the 5 that attracts the players, not the 6. Low limit players give up a lot as far as House edge goes in most gambling.
Penny slots versus Dollar slots, the rake on low limit poker, Roulette e games have $3 or $5 minimums per spin. no more
betting just $1 on a lucky number or red/black.
Labor cost, mortgage payments ,etc.

Quote: buzzpaff

Roulette e games have $3 or $5 minimums per spin. no more betting just $1 on a lucky number or red/black.
Labor cost, mortgage payments ,etc.

There are $1-$2 table roulette (and craps) games in Hendertucky.

Quote: wn52627

New to the forum here, so apologies if I've missed a thread on this in the past.

Just returned from my first foray to Las Vegas in the past five years. A great time was had, but I was really disappointed to see the proliferance of 6:5 games at low stakes games. We usually play reds, anywhere from $5 minimum up to $15, if we're feeling it.

We had a tough time finding good games; the Wizard's blackjack survey was a great reference. We ended up at El Cortez for most of our play, simply because they had the best game at our level.

My question: In the future, do you think low-stakes games (for the sake of this conversation, anything less than a green chip minimum) will eventually all move down to 6:5? I'd be really disappointed in that.

Still plenty of decent low limit games in Vegas, but you have to get away from the strip and downtown tourists areas. Almost any of the 'local' type casinos (stations, boyd, terribles, cannery's) have decent $5 3-2 blackjack. M resort has very good $10 blackjack. On the strip circus circus still has $5, 3-2 blackjack, but the tables are full and the game moves very slow. Elsewhere on the strip, decent $10 games at Monte Carlo, and decent $10, $15 games can be found at many MGM properties, less Aria. Tropicana also has playable $10 games (3-2). Downtown, in addition to EC, the D resort has removed it's 6-5 games and replaced them with decent $5 and $10, 6 deck, 3-2 games. Golden nugget offers both 6-5 and 3-2 low limit games, often side by side, so be sure to look.

ElCo has great BJ, from what I hear, at $5.

Craps is pretty good Downtown overall. 4 Queens usually has $5 with 5X and sometimes $3 with 5X. Binions is $5 with 5X most of the time. MSS is $5 with 20X. Elco has $5 with 10X and I hear they sometimes have the limit at $3.

But, yes, overall outside Downtown and the Strip you get even better deals. I've been told Jokers Wild has a $1 game with 10X odds.

In 1962 table games were 70% of a casino's revenues and slots were 30%. Several years ago those numbers reversed and it may be be closer to 80/20 today.

Even more recent look at the past 20 years . All slots were coin droppers, no paper money inserts, no chairs in slot area, seldom a cocktail waitress, for free drinks or any drinks at all. Now you have TITO, vastly cutting expenses, such as hard count, wrapping coins,
change girl, etc. Lowest denomination then was 5 cents.

Now you have penny slots, graphics, and drawing for prized while playing slots. Beside stool some games like Wiz of Oz feature vibrating chairs. Several years ago I read that average bet on a penny machine was 73 cents. that was before most machines changed to having to play 25 or 30 cents before being eligible for the bonus.

Now look at the improvements in table games. LOL Used to have hardwood inlays to keep dollar slugs or chips in while playing.
Tables crammed together most places, 3rd base at one table against 1 st base at the next. Have seen thread bare felts even.
And forget those metal drink holders inserted thru holes in the tables. Now it's plastic drink holder showed under the cushion.

Blackjack pays 6.5 at low limits, dealers hitting soft 17, and non existent comps. Who else has seen some kid walk up to table and buy in for $20. Bet first hand, get split and DD, lose that. get 20 on next hand , dealer gets BJ ? And on weekend some places he will have to borrow $5 to play a hand.

The future for LIVE table games is dim indeed. On recent trip to Blackhawk saw empty roulette LIVE table after table with no players.
But e tables were full on a Wednesday night, no less !

Quote: wn52627

My question: In the future, do you think low-stakes games (for the sake of this conversation, anything less than a green chip minimum) will eventually all move down to 6:5? I'd be really disappointed in that.

Yes. At the very least there will be no $5 blackjack that is not 6:5.

Part of the reason is that the price of the video blackjack machines will just keep coming down, especially if more competition with Shufflemaster is developed. There will be no reason to hire a live person to operate 3:2 blackjack with $5 minimum.



I think once Jackie Gaughan dies, even the El Cortez will go to 6:5 blackjack. I know that Jackie no longer owns the place, but out of deference they keep certain things to his standards.

Thanks for all the replies. I appreciate it.

In my opinion there will always be low stakes games as most bettors are red chippers , why not get more people to gamble, and take their money too ? I am speaking on smaller casinos and card rooms, LV is a much different situation, although I cannot see them not wanting to get $$ from a low roller, each company has a high end house and a lower one, so they can get more $$ from more people.

I have seen the 2 /3/5 dollar table packed continually !! And even a dollar table packed, yes a dollar !! I played it and gave every win to the dealer, why ? Not really sure, I had booked a very nice win and wanted to give a few chips back , I guess .

Wheeling Island has $2 blackjack 3:2 ($0.25 ante); table max $4.

I go there to collect $$ from my players. Kinda funny when the guy at the $2 blackjack game slips $1,350 in my pocket.

Quote: MakingBook

Wheeling Island has $2 blackjack 3:2 ($0.25 ante); table max $4.

I go there to collect $$ from my players. Kinda funny when the guy at the $2 blackjack game slips $1,350 in my pocket.

You're a dealer at WI? What shift?

Read it again. Then look at his name.

He's a bookie. He meets up with the customer to settle bets while the customer is at a $2 table.

That's wild! I didn't know we had bookies around here!

Low stakes gaming has a bright future on the internet, when/if permitted. A lot of low-roller joints could open up feeding the traditional priced B&M or OLG sites.
$1 to $25 limits anyone?

I see table game minimums going in two directions. One is obviously the trend upwards, where games will cost more to get better games. I see $15 being the standard minimum across the board, with high limit starting at $50 most places, $100+ on the Strip. I remember when $25 got you into High limit nearly everywhere.

The other trend I see is MUCH lower minimums, at $1 but house edges skyrocket on those bets. 30:1 on a winning number on roulette, less than true odds on craps, and so on. Plus commissions charged up front on all those bets (well maybe not roulette).

$5-10 games with decent rules will be relegated to those machines paco pictured.

where have you seen 30:1 on roulette?
less than true odds on craps? you mean on pass odds? where?

Quote: WongBo

where have you seen 30:1 on roulette?
less than true odds on craps? you mean on pass odds? where?

I haven't... I'm saying that's what it will go to.

I would prefer more video games than lower minimums which bring in the fleas. We have a flea game at work, and people buy in for $20 but drink at least $50 worth of booze. I believe low limit games are a disservice to the player because they cannot really win a lot of money, nor can the house make a lot of money on them. $10 seems like a fair minimum for card games, and maybe $5 for dice/roulette.

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

I would prefer more video games than lower minimums which bring in the fleas. We have a flea game at work, and people buy in for $20 but drink at least $50 worth of booze. I believe low limit games are a disservice to the player because they cannot really win a lot of money, nor can the house make a lot of money on them. $10 seems like a fair minimum for card games, and maybe $5 for dice/roulette.

I disagree with some of that. It's the innumerable "fleas" that built your "fine" establishment, not the high rollers. The casinos are perfectly willing to take the flea money through 87% return penny slots all day long. They just seem to get resentful when they have to pay any personnel to deal games for that same money. We all know the casino will get 95% of that table game money anyhow, but that isn't enough for them. They want to raise the minimums so they can annihilate the 100 dollar and lower buy in "fleas" faster. Then you see three quarters of the blackjack tables on a Friday or Saturday night empty because the fleas just can't afford $15 CSM blackjack on their "measly" 100 dollar buyins. But hey, keep serving them free drinks, and eventually they cave in and get wiped out in 6 hands. I see it all the time. And it doesn't make for happy customers who want to return. People don't really mind losing if they get some "play" for their money. The way some casinos operate, it would be less painful to just give them the cash at the door and get back in your car and go home.

You might as well bemoan the growth of Party Pits where the various Cleavage Taxes are quite willingly paid.
If red chip games are all destined to be 6:5 (or worse) then there is not much to be done about it.

The casinos decide that the dealer and the table have a certain "cost" to them and clearly most casinos have decided that those basic costs just can't be made offering 3:2 blackjack with great rule sets.

The casinos are not likely to be changing their minds any too soon.

Is it morally right? Are five dollar bettors archaic? Should five dollar bettors be ashamed of themselves.

You might as well debate the proper hem length for this years gowns... once these things get decided, the trend simply continues.

In casinos, its often made by MBA types rather than by gamblers, but either way... low level games are generally deemed too unprofitable and only in desperate times will casinos have them and hype them.

Quote: 4andaKicker

... People don't really mind losing if they get some "play" for their money.

I find this to be true for myself.

Since I'm a low roller, time at the tables is the primary way I measure value. I go to the casino for recreation & entertainment, and as long as I am able to play for a while on my modest bankroll then I feel like I received value for my time & money.

Of course I'd prefer to win and not lose, but I don't hang my happiness on whether or not I do win. Winning would just be icing on the cake of an enjoyable evening out on the town.

Quote: FleaStiff

You might as well bemoan the growth of Party Pits where the various Cleavage Taxes are quite willingly paid.
If red chip games are all destined to be 6:5 (or worse) then there is not much to be done about it.

The casinos decide that the dealer and the table have a certain "cost" to them and clearly most casinos have decided that those basic costs just can't be made offering 3:2 blackjack with great rule sets.

The casinos are not likely to be changing their minds any too soon.

Is it morally right? Are five dollar bettors archaic? Should five dollar bettors be ashamed of themselves.

You might as well debate the proper hem length for this years gowns... once these things get decided, the trend simply continues.

No, no, and no. If people are so desperate to see cleavage, they are willing to pay for it, that's completely out of the bounds of what I was discussing. It would be cheaper (and more revealing for them) to go to a strip club. Casinos don't need to change to 6:5 Blackjack, they would like to. But unless they colluded, they can't make it happen because any thinking player wouldn't play there with 3:2 games available almost everywhere. As to the table limit portion: I do believe that when they have three quarters of their bj table unoccupied because the min is too high for the locals, the competition will eventually suck up that market unless the casino smartens up. The market won't get any bigger just because they want to raise their mins, but the PORTION of that market they can capture sure will shrink if they keep abusing the foundational players (customers) for their business.

Competition can do many things , as players if we boycott bad games, casinos must improve their game to earn our business.

I myself, use CBJN and play the best games I can find, wherever I am at. I regularly play the 2D for 5 min. off the strip, or 25 min. 6d, S17,S,,RSA, on the the strip.

I think there will always be a house that caters to red chip action, there are too many red chippers for the casinos to ignore !!

Although you may need to look for it and it could be far from the bellagio in distance and atmosphere.

I actually enjoy smaller less attractive houses , if it has a good game !!

Competition??? break up Harrah's. Then talk competition.