PAndrews07
Joined: Oct 24, 2023
• Posts: 10
November 15th, 2023 at 7:19:25 AM permalink
Hello,
I was wondering if anyone had a shortcut to the dollar amount you need for backing odds on every number (4-10)? I know you can crunch the actual odds but when the dice are out it can be useful to have a quick guide on the money you are laying down. For example, I know they often make you even the number out. If for some reason I make a pass bet of \$30 and it's a 4, is there a minimum I need to back the number versus, say, an 8?
Thanks
ChumpChange
Joined: Jun 15, 2018
• Posts: 4477
November 15th, 2023 at 7:31:23 AM permalink
Odds on the PL can be in multiples of \$10 without having to add \$1 for the 5/9 on \$5 multiples.
Odds on the Don'ts can be multiples of \$12 or \$6; but with your \$30 example, better to make it \$30 multiples for the Don't odds.
I'm not sure how table minimums factor into this. If you have odds for less that's allowable, but if the odds payout is less than the table minimum, there may be disagreement over whether that is allowed.
There's another way to play the PL odds: have \$30 odds on the 4/10, \$40 odds on the 5/9, and \$50 odds on the 6/8 so all odds bets pay \$60 and every PL with odds win pays \$90. Conversely, play DP or DC for \$30 with \$60 odds.
PAndrews07
Joined: Oct 24, 2023
• Posts: 10
November 15th, 2023 at 9:07:14 AM permalink
Thank you for this information. I'm sure it will take some practice to get down but seems to make sense. I've been working on progressive bet strategies for the DP/DC: 3-5-7-10-15, etc. So if I'm starting w three units at \$25 w/3x odds, a standard progression would look like this.
\$75 - \$225 (odds), 125-375, 175-525, 250-750, etc.

But, given your advice to have the odds be divisible by \$6 or \$12, would 3x odds have to look like this?

\$75 - \$240 (odds), 125- 390, 175-540, 250-750, etc

Sorry for the confusion. I just don't want to have my flow disrupted at the tables if possible. There's a lot about payoffs I don't quite grasp yet
ChumpChange
Joined: Jun 15, 2018
• Posts: 4477
November 15th, 2023 at 3:09:35 PM permalink
I don't like pressing up odds unnecessarily on the Don'ts because the payout is less than even money. On most tables you can go to 6X odds on the Don'ts. A progression would look like \$15/\$90, \$20/\$120, \$25/ \$150, \$30/\$180, etc.. If I wanted 3X odds only so I can switch to the PL easily it'd look like \$30/\$90, \$40/\$120, \$50/\$150, \$60/\$180, etc.
PAndrews07
Joined: Oct 24, 2023
• Posts: 10
November 16th, 2023 at 9:12:36 AM permalink
Makes sense. Are you a place better on the Pass side or do you prefer COME/DC bets? I like flipping to COME w max odds when the dice are hot but mainly like the feel of a lone table and DP/DC
ChumpChange
Joined: Jun 15, 2018
• Posts: 4477
November 16th, 2023 at 9:24:57 AM permalink
I'm all over the place but for this thread count me as DP with 3X odds twice then switching sides to PL with 3X odds per shooter.
arrgy
Joined: Nov 21, 2013
• Posts: 6
November 23rd, 2023 at 4:11:05 AM permalink
Quote: PAndrews07

Makes sense. Are you a place better on the Pass side or do you prefer COME/DC bets? I like flipping to COME w max odds when the dice are hot but mainly like the feel of a lone table and DP/DC

Have been a dont better since my daddy showed me how to play back in 1990 at the Claridge in AC.

Skip the DP, and stick with the DC. They are technically the same bet, but really they are not. The DC forces you not to chase when a come out 7 is thrown. Nothing worse then sitting with a DP bet for a couple of minutes, finally winning it, and then losing it all back in 2 rolls because someone threw two come out 7s. Most halfway decent rolls will have a come out 7 in there somewhere, or they will make at least one point. There is a reason why the DC is the most inaccessable bet on the table, its stuck in the corner, its because the house doesn't want you to use it, they want you to use the DP. A come out 7 is a winner for a DC bettor.

They asked the Greek once (famous Dont bettor) if he were to do it all over again, what would he do differently. He said "I wouldn't lay odds". I stopped laying odds years ago and never looked back. Lets say your first bet is a \$100 DC, point 4 with \$400 odds. Bang, shooter makes it, you are now down 5 units, guaranteed you are chasing that for the rest of your session. Or worse, you have a point of 6, shooter makes it, then rolls a 4 and now you want to get that 6 you lost back by laying on this hard to make number of 4, and they make it. Bang now your down 6 units! If you want to lay odds, you are far better off skipping the DC and DP entirely, avoid the come out and just make a lay bet against the number. Yes you pay a commission, but in the long run its worth avoiding.

Hedge, hedge, hedge. Use the hardways to hedge. Again a \$100 bet and your number is 4,6, 8 or 10. Throw \$10 on the hardway, trust me it is worth it. I generally don't have more then 2 DC bets up. If one is a 6 and the other is a 4, I will place the 6 instead of taking it down, and leave the harder number naked.

Don't chase. If someone just knocked down a couple of your numbers, just stand there and let them roll. Likewise, if I win on a rolled 2 or 3, I don't bet that shooter anymore. Hey I won on that shooter whether it was a 7 out or not.

Dont betting is a pyschological grind, all of your action occurs as you passively watch the game, and think about your next move. You win in silence and suffer in silence.
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
• Posts: 9397
November 23rd, 2023 at 5:14:04 AM permalink
Quote: arrgy

Have been a dont better since my daddy showed me how to play back in 1990 at the Claridge in AC.

Cool. Darksider here too.

Quote:

Skip the DP, and stick with the DC. They are technically the same bet, but really they are not. The DC forces you not to chase when a come out 7 is thrown. Nothing worse then sitting with a DP bet for a couple of minutes, finally winning it, and then losing it all back in 2 rolls because someone threw two come out 7s. Most halfway decent rolls will have a come out 7 in there somewhere, or they will make at least one point. There is a reason why the DC is the most inaccessable bet on the table, its stuck in the corner, its because the house doesn't want you to use it, they want you to use the DP. A come out 7 is a winner for a DC bettor.

They asked the Greek once (famous Dont bettor) if he were to do it all over again, what would he do differently. He said "I wouldn't lay odds". I stopped laying odds years ago and never looked back.

I am enjoying listening to an old craps player talk, and mostly let it go when I don't quite think what is being said is accurate. But I can't let certain comments stand without objecting.

Quote:

Lets say your first bet is a \$100 DC, point 4 with \$400 odds. Bang, shooter makes it, you are now down 5 units, guaranteed you are chasing that for the rest of your session. Or worse, you have a point of 6, shooter makes it, then rolls a 4 and now you want to get that 6 you lost back by laying on this hard to make number of 4, and they make it. Bang now your down 6 units!

This is just anecdotal stuff. You can turn it around and say “Bang you won those bets and now you’re way up!!” The thing is, all of this kind of talk is meaningless unless you bring probability into it. You make a bet and there is an amount you win and the chances of it, or lose an amount and the chances of that. Craps lends itself to stating this precisely. All other analysis is just blow hard.

Quote:

If you want to lay odds, you are far better off skipping the DC and DP entirely, avoid the come out and just make a lay bet against the number. Yes you pay a commission, but in the long run its worth avoiding.

so you say.

Quote:

Hedge, hedge, hedge.

Hedging doesn’t favor the house directly but can be said to do so in these ways: it reduces the variance for bets that are negative in expectation, and increases the amount the player bets, all against a house edge, meaning the amount you lose in the long run is actually higher, not lower. The one thing it does *not* do is ‘cancel out’ the expected value of other bets.

Quote:

Use the hardways to hedge. Again a \$100 bet and your number is 4,6, 8 or 10. Throw \$10 on the hardway, trust me it is worth it. I generally don't have more then 2 DC bets up. If one is a 6 and the other is a 4, I will place the 6 instead of taking it down, and leave the harder number naked.

high house edge on those bets, sir

Quote:

Don't chase. If someone just knocked down a couple of your numbers, just stand there and let them roll. Likewise, if I win on a rolled 2 or 3, I don't bet that shooter anymore. Hey I won on that shooter whether it was a 7 out or not.

This is OK, because anything that stops you from betting more reduces how much you lose in the long run.

Quote:

Dont betting is a pyschological grind, all of your action occurs as you passively watch the game, and think about your next move. You win in silence and suffer in silence.

true enough

the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
arrgy
Joined: Nov 21, 2013
• Posts: 6
November 23rd, 2023 at 6:07:21 AM permalink
Well thanks for calling me "Old" I appreciate it. I come from a different time, when we limited risk as much as possible. I have stood next to plenty of guys at the same table who have bet DP and walked away losers.

On Monday at Planet Hollwood, I'm at a crowded table betting flat \$50 DC for two numbers, no odds, maybe hedging here and threre with my 1K buy in. Up comes a guy with his Eagles jersey. He is betting \$50 DP, and \$50 DC for two numbers, our bets in the box are side by side, he took full odds on everything, and he bought in for double 2K, he was done in 35 minutes, lost his \$2K. Me, I was up \$500. How can it be? For the exception of me skipping the DP, and not laying odds we had the same exact bets. He didn't make any place bets, no center bets, but he lost with more money in his hand, and I showed a profit.

The main problem with odds is when you are off by one deviation or EV or whatever you want to call it. The math is great in the long run, but we don't play in the long run. One pit boss at the Taj told me once that if the players flipped, and instead of most being on the do side, switched to the don't side and didn't take odds, they would either have to change the rules of the game, or stop offering it.

You want to go nuts. My father used to play like this. He would do a martingale on DC only on three different shooters. It was the most boring way I ever saw played. He would never bet a woman, either. First bet 1 unit DC. It loses comes back with 2 units. Loses, come back with 4. Loses, he stops, waits for the next shooter. Comes back with 8, then 16, then 32. He never got to a third shooter. If he won, he jumped back to the first unit and he would wait for the next shooter. He always made a profit, but my God no one wants to play like that.
PAndrews07
Joined: Oct 24, 2023
• Posts: 10
November 23rd, 2023 at 6:42:06 AM permalink
Thanks, I'm going to try your hardways advice - normally I don't touch them. I love the darkside, still it shocks me how much crap I get from other players at the table. I always compliment them on a good roll though - a good roll I have sat out.
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
• Posts: 9397
November 23rd, 2023 at 6:46:42 AM permalink
when I first started betting darkside, I made the mistake of putting too much in action

Rightside, I was only comfortable making a passline bet with odds and maybe a come bet with odds once in a while [I'd make more come bets if the table min was low]. That's a reasonable amount of action of course. But I had the notion Darkside that I could pile on the DC bets and try to have up to 6 numbers to resolve. I took some bad hits before I realized it needs to be roughly the same amount in action whether rightside or darkside ... and you can put too much in action
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
PAndrews07
Joined: Oct 24, 2023
• Posts: 10
November 23rd, 2023 at 6:55:44 AM permalink
I also appreciate the personal experience here. In my opinion, this comes down to a 'man in the arena' type scenario. We all know what it's like when a table is choppy/hot and those swings can be brutal. That's a situation where I'd avoid taking odds on DP/DC. Otherwise, I feel like I'm not taking full advantage of the odds. I def don;t chase the losses unless I'm employing a press system NOT taking max odds because I'm not bringing that kind of money in; 1-3-5-7-10-15-25-35-50-75-100-150-200. I've never personally gone past 15 units (playing \$15/25) taking 3x odds. Maybe I'll see you guys at the aria weekend of dec 8, a fellow darksider
Tanko
Joined: Apr 22, 2013
• Posts: 1182
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November 23rd, 2023 at 8:30:53 AM permalink
Quote: arrgy

Skip the DP, and stick with the DC. They are technically the same bet, but really they are not. The DC forces you not to chase when a come out 7 is thrown. Nothing worse then sitting with a DP bet for a couple of minutes, finally winning it, and then losing it all back in 2 rolls because someone threw two come out 7s...

I stopped laying odds years ago and never looked back. Lets say your first bet is a \$100 DC, point 4 with \$400 odds. Bang, shooter makes it, you are now down 5 units, ...

Hedge, hedge, hedge. Use the hardways to hedge. Again a \$100 bet and your number is 4,6, 8 or 10. Throw \$10 on the hardway, trust me it is worth it.

I generally don't have more then 2 DC bets up. If one is a 6 and the other is a 4, I will place the 6 instead of taking it down, and leave the harder number naked.

Waiting for the Point to be established after losing a DC bet to a seven or eleven, doesn't change the probability of a seven or eleven rolling again on your next DC bet.

Odds bets are the reason to play Craps. They can cause large swings in your bankroll, but they combine to lower the house edge. If single odds is too high for someone's bankroll, they can bet half odds or less. At least where I play.

Making a hardway bet that has a house edge ranging from 9.09% to 11.11% as a 'hedge' to protect a bet where you have the mathematical advantage over the house is not a good bet. Hardways never are. If you lose your bet behind a number, it will most likely not be a hard number that was rolled, and you will lose two bets instead of one.

Placing a number where you have a Don't bet working, turns what was your mathematical advantage over the House, into a disadvantage.
PAndrews07
Joined: Oct 24, 2023
• Posts: 10
November 28th, 2023 at 8:00:18 AM permalink
I just want to make sure that I'm correct in assuming the casinos do not pay out true odds on the free odds for 5/9 6/8. For example, if I place a \$25 on the DON'T with and additional \$75 for 3x odds, the payout on the \$75 odds SHOULD be;
5/9: 2:3= \$49.50
6/8: 5:6= \$62.25

In practice, I've seen the dealers make me round up to \$80 for 5/9, paying me out \$50 when it should be \$52.80, and then paying me out \$60 on the 6/8, essentially pocketing the \$2.25.

This was just one example. but am I correct in assuming they aren't paying true odds on the free odds?

THANK YOU
unJon
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
• Posts: 4344
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November 28th, 2023 at 8:37:57 AM permalink
Quote: PAndrews07

I just want to make sure that I'm correct in assuming the casinos do not pay out true odds on the free odds for 5/9 6/8. For example, if I place a \$25 on the DON'T with and additional \$75 for 3x odds, the payout on the \$75 odds SHOULD be;
5/9: 2:3= \$49.50
6/8: 5:6= \$62.25

In practice, I've seen the dealers make me round up to \$80 for 5/9, paying me out \$50 when it should be \$52.80, and then paying me out \$60 on the 6/8, essentially pocketing the \$2.25.

This was just one example. but am I correct in assuming they aren't paying true odds on the free odds?

The easy thing to do is just always lay 6x odds on the don’t for any number. That will always land on the right multiple, and you should never be short paid. You’ll be paid 3/4/5.

THANK YOU

Free odds pay true. On the don’t, you need to make your don’t odds a multiple of 3 and on the 6/8 a multiple of 6. If a dealer told you to lay \$80 on the 5 for odds, he just doesn’t know what he’s doing.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
ChumpChange
Joined: Jun 15, 2018
• Posts: 4477
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November 28th, 2023 at 8:59:28 AM permalink
Quote: PAndrews07

I just want to make sure that I'm correct in assuming the casinos do not pay out true odds on the free odds for 5/9 6/8. For example, if I place a \$25 on the DON'T with and additional \$75 for 3x odds, the payout on the \$75 odds SHOULD be;
5/9: 2:3= \$49.50
6/8: 5:6= \$62.25

In practice, I've seen the dealers make me round up to \$80 for 5/9, paying me out \$50 when it should be \$52.80, and then paying me out \$60 on the 6/8, essentially pocketing the \$2.25.

This was just one example. but am I correct in assuming they aren't paying true odds on the free odds?

THANK YOU

\$75 Don't odds on 5/9: 2:3= \$50.00
\$72 Don't odds on 6/8: 5:6= \$60.00

If you made straight Lay bets, there's a vig either upfront or on the win.
\$75 Lay 5/9 on 5/9 2:3 = \$50 - \$2 vig
\$72 Lay 6/8 on 6/8 5:6 = \$60 - \$3 vig

I tend to make a progression out of lay bets at these levels, say on the 5 or 9 of \$75, \$90, \$105, \$120, \$135, \$150, \$180, \$210, \$240, \$270, \$300. But once I try I get slapped with nine 9's in a row so I should have placed the 9 instead.
PAndrews07
Joined: Oct 24, 2023
• Posts: 10
November 28th, 2023 at 9:07:42 AM permalink
Quote: I tend to make a progression out of lay bets at these levels, say on the 5 or 9 of \$75, \$90, \$105, \$120, \$135, \$150, \$180, \$210, \$240, \$270, \$300. But once I try I get slapped with nine 9's in a row so I should have placed the 9 instead.

I know what you mean. Those rolls kill me.
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
• Posts: 9397
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November 28th, 2023 at 10:46:52 AM permalink
when playing the Don't free odds, I keep it simple and make sure it's an amount divisible by 6, period
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Ace2
Joined: Oct 2, 2017
• Posts: 2652
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November 28th, 2023 at 12:47:55 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

when I first started betting darkside, I made the mistake of putting too much in action

Rightside, I was only comfortable making a passline bet with odds and maybe a come bet with odds once in a while [I'd make more come bets if the table min was low]. That's a reasonable amount of action of course. But I had the notion Darkside that I could pile on the DC bets and try to have up to 6 numbers to resolve. I took some bad hits before I realized it needs to be roughly the same amount in action whether rightside or darkside ... and you can put too much in action