GN AC vs. Darkoz

This is a convoluted story that will take up more than one post and require some degree of time jumping for it to all make sense so fair warning.

June of 2019

I was taking Freeplay on about ten different players cards at the Golden Nugget in Atlantic City when I was caught.

A female security guard snatched the current card I had in the slot machine and simultaneously I was surrounded by about four guards and a supervisor.

Female security guard reads out the obviously female name on the player's card and asks me who that person is. "I know this isn't your name"

"It's my girlfriend card".

Security guards all laugh and give the sarcastic"yeah, right".

And in case you are wondering, I would have said the card belonged to my girlfriend regardless HOWEVER just by chance, it happened that I was indeed in a relationship with that person.

I cashed out the nearly thousand dollars voucher in the machine and then notified them I would be leaving the casino if they so wished

Only they didn't wish me to leave. They notified me I was being detained and had to come to the back room with them.

I informed them I had committed no crime and was free to leave per my rights but they said that was not an option.

Either I waited in the backroom for the DGA (Division of Gaming Enforcement) to arrive or I could do it on the gaming floor.

I said I would wait on the gaming floor

They attempted the psychological trick. "Do you really want to be seen taken out of here in handcuffs in front of all these casino goer's? Why don't you save yourself the embarrassment and come upstairs with us "

I replied, "I don't give a rats ass what these people I don't know or could care less about think. I'm not going willingly to any detainment room."

And so we waited on the gaming floor

Two guards stood nearby to make certain I didn't leave.

I took the time to contact my daughter so she was aware of the situation. Then I contacted my attorney.

My attorney said if I had done nothing illegal just leave but be prepared for something to go down. It was my choice.

So, I took a deep breath and decided to leave.

I stood up and walked right past the guards who, surprised by my sudden movement, wanted to know where I was going

I notified them I was leaving.

Suddenly I was grabbed in an arm lock, one security guard on each side. The female guard wasn't applying too much pressure but the other very large male guard put enough pressure on that I knew it would take little to snap the elbow.

I quickly went limp in my arms and made little movement so as not to provoke a beating. And they pretty much led me to an elevator, up to their backroom and placed me in a cell all the while keeping me in the double arm lock.

Once inside the supervisor asked me to hand over all the players cards in my possession. He read off a handful of names to prove he knew everything about the situation but of course he missed a few names.

I handed all the cards over anyway. I knew they would be useless at this point. All the offers would be revoked soon enough.

He looked at the cards and recognized I had more than he expected. "Thanks for being cooperative and handing them all to me. I sincerely mean that. Nonetheless, we are detaining you for theft and trespassing"

"I haven't stolen anything. I am using those cards with permission of the players which I have been repeating for the last hour and trespassing? I have never been trespassed from this property."

To which the supervisor replied, "Oh, yes, you have and we have the evidence to prove it."

And of course I knew what evidence he referred to...

...And he was wrong. I was never trespassed from the Golden Nugget.

But that's going to require going back in time so for now, just remember where we are at, stuck in the Golden Nugget awaiting DGA officers to arrive...

To be continued

I'm looking forward to the rest of this. I was also detained at GN and they used the trespassing even though I was never trespassed excuse. They will never be held accountable for lying by the authorities so I hope you held them accountable.

Quote: randomperson

I'm looking forward to the rest of this. I was also detained at GN and they used the trespassing even though I was never trespassed excuse. They will never be held accountable for lying by the authorities so I hope you held them accountable.
link to original post

i have the opposite issue they cant keep me out of the back room or the casino in general

Is the epic road trip in search of pinball games done?

Thank you for part 1! I am already looking forward to the second chapter.

Quote: billryan

Is the epic road trip in search of pinball games done?
link to original post

No. That's ongoing too.

I just wanted a gambling story to tell besides the non-gambling pinball road trip

Quote: Wizard

Thank you for part 1! I am already looking forward to the second chapter.
link to original post

Thanks, appreciated.

This certainly sounds familiar (the trespass). I know you have a big operation, but I don't think I'd ever be carrying that many on me at once, even if I had a big operation. Were you playing all of them off that visit?

My AC trespass is at a different property and that's the one where the dude dropped the term, 'Wire fraud,' and claimed you had to have an ID to even be in the casino---because I originally tried to leave without giving them ID. They basically swarmed me on the floor, but I went ahead and went with them after the first time they told me I couldn't leave the property...I was pretty mouthy, kind of hoped I could goad one of them into hitting me, but it didn't happen.

"Okay, we're going to take a picture of you now."

"Okay. Is this for your mom to remember me by? Do you think she likes me better with my hat on or off?"

Anyway, I only had two cards on me...and one of them was mine!

NOTES: This would have been in late 2019, I want to say October or November. I obviously can't prove that I said what I said, but if requested, I can probably privately prove to an Admin that I am indeed trespassed at a casino in Atlantic City.

Excellent thread. Looking forward to this.

Quote: Mission146

This certainly sounds familiar (the trespass). I know you have a big operation, but I don't think I'd ever be carrying that many on me at once, even if I had a big operation. Were you playing all of them off that visit?

My AC trespass is at a different property and that's the one where the dude dropped the term, 'Wire fraud,' and claimed you had to have an ID to even be in the casino---because I originally tried to leave without giving them ID. They basically swarmed me on the floor, but I went ahead and went with them after the first time they told me I couldn't leave the property...I was pretty mouthy, kind of hoped I could goad one of them into hitting me, but it didn't happen.

"Okay, we're going to take a picture of you now."

"Okay. Is this for your mom to remember me by? Do you think she likes me better with my hat on or off?"

Anyway, I only had two cards on me...and one of them was mine!

NOTES: This would have been in late 2019, I want to say October or November. I obviously can't prove that I said what I said, but if requested, I can probably privately prove to an Admin that I am indeed trespassed at a casino in Atlantic City.
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As you noted whether you get caught with just two or two hundred, you get the same treatment.

So what does it matter?

Hit em and hit em hard so at least the backroom and your traveling is worth it

To Unjon, thanks. There are going to be a few surprises in this "AP trip report".

Quote: darkoz

As you noted whether you get caught with just two or two hundred, you get the same treatment.

So what does it matter?

Hit em and hit em hard so at least the backroom and your traveling is worth it

To Unjon, thanks. There are going to be a few surprises in this "AP trip report".
link to original post

As you mentioned, they confiscated cards that they didn't even know had anything to do with you...so even though all of the cards can be considered, "Hot," you also gave them some cards that they didn't know were associated with anything along those lines.

Furthermore, if not all of the cards are hot and you can get someone to go in and try to get in and out for a very high percentage who you have made aware will almost definitely be backroomed (eventually), then it's easier to keep track of what cards are made if you are only in there with a few at a time.

I'd also have a tendency to spread out my exposure to different shifts, and what have you, rather than trying to get ten done in one go. That said, maybe your operation is just so big that you've got to do what you've got to do.

You drop mid four figures on several classic pinball machines and drive across the country to do it and I drive an economy sedan with over 90k miles, so don't think I'm trying to tell you your business; just giving my input.

Anyway, I look forward to hearing the rest! My treatment was a little different, probably owing to my size. I had five of them surrounding me almost instantly and they cut me off before I could even get to the ticket redemption machine. They were remarkably efficient and cut off all possible escape paths really quickly, so I have to admit to being impressed with that aspect of their operation that day.

Also, my AC thing was part of what I assume was also a big operation. Same thing with my trespass at one of the casinos near me. In terms of MC'ing, I've never been trespassed due to anything that I have done just in my individual capacity, but my operations (if they can even be called that) are much smaller.

I should also mention that many casinos in AC, at least at one time (I wouldn't know now), did not activate the Free Play offers (or give you the ability to activate at the kiosk) until the mid-afternoon, so I could see where that would also be limiting. My assumption there is that they probably didn't want to make it easy, even for recreational players, to take advantage of easy, "Crossover Days," which means you have Free Play on your card one day and then on the next. Some casinos start FP offers in the morning and any FP on card is available during the entire, "Gaming Day," which, for some casinos, doesn't end until the start of the next Gaming Day.

What that means is that, for a person who doesn't mind getting up early for a crossover day...suppose the Gaming Day changes at 6:00a.m., then you could arrive at 5:00a.m. and do the Free Play pickup for that Gaming Day and, an hour later, do the pickups for the following Gaming Day, which is why that is called, "Crossover." Other casinos can sometimes have the free play load in the morning, but it ends at midnight...which still makes for a decent crossover day if you are either staying there or don't mind being up all night or have other things you can do in the interim.

Again, I don't know if any AC casinos still do it that way or if GN was ever one of them. I was, "No-Mailed," at GN several years ago, but they did not trespass or backroom me. I just don't recall when their Free Play loaded...I think sometime in the early afternoon, but I couldn't swear to it.

Mission,

Golden Nugget had the best crossover. The 6am thing.

As to handing over even the cards the supervisor hadn't named, you have a good point and any other casino I probably would have stood quiet and kept them under wraps.

I knew why I was caught at golden Nugget and it wasn't because I personally was hot.

It's because their hosts keep close monitoring of the high offers. I'm pretty certain it's automated. That is, a player who takes Freeplay without significant action comes up on a Host computer who then monitors the action for a few days and let's security/surveillance be warned of any red flags.

I was trying to get around this with extra gambling camouflage but there comes a point where you wind up making no money.

Hence, giving up the unnamed cards made no difference. At best they would have been flagged within days. And paying someone to do the pickups for just a few cards plus extra gambling (and putting them in danger of being backroomed) just would not have made sense.

Okay so on with part two:

June 2019

There I was in the Golden Nugget backroom being told I was held for theft pertaining to use of other people's players cards and trespassing.

I argued I had never been trespassed at Golden Nugget and they had no proof to show I was.

The security supervisor declared they did have proof.

I pointed out I had never signed a trespassing document at which point the supervisor stated I had been verbally trespassed twice and they had the video surveillance proof that security had approached me on these two occasions.

And indeed, I had been surrounded by security on two prior occasions. So here is where it begins to get complicated and requiring a few time jumps.

So with me in the backroom at Golden Nugget in June 2019, let's do a Hollywood style dissolve to...

SCREEN DISSOLVES TO THREE YEARS PRIOR, DECEMBER 2016.

December 2016, the Golden Nugget had a promotion for new members and that included non-active members which I assumed I would qualify for as it had been two years of inactivity on my card.

I had stayed away from the Golden Nugget since 2014. In 2014 I had a pretty good operation there making what was good money for me at the time although it pales to what I am used to now. I was only in my third year of AP.

FLASHBACK WITHIN A FLASHBACK TO 2014

(Screenwriting professors will tell you never to do that).

IN 2014, after half a year of good zero heat at the Golden Nugget, suddenly all my female card holders received phone calls from their hosts asking them if they had recently visited.

They all said no but they had loaned their cards to their boyfriend. Lol, I wish I had so many girlfriends.

Golden Nugget obviously understood they were getting hit by a team. Once my people informed me of the calls, I monitored their offers online and sure enough, within 24 hours all the offers always visible on the golden Nugget AC website were gone, wiped clean.

So from 2014, there was reason to believe I should stay away from the Golden Nugget. However, I had never been caught physically using cards. I am certain if I had attempted to use those cards I would have been surrounded then in 2014. They were probably on high alert waiting for me....

But I never showed and two years later, I figured that was a distant memory. And I was correct. Golden Nugget never brought up anything from 2014.

DISSOLVE BACK TO DECEMBER 2016

So, after staying away for two years I was entering the Golden Nugget NOT to multi-card but to legit take advantage of the new member/inactive members offer.

Which was earn 1000 points same day and get $100 Freeplay same day. And yes, I wanted to observe what offers I would get in the mail in a month or so while taking advantage of this offer.

So I went up to get my players card. The attendant observed that I qualified. Great. She said after a moment that there was a problem with my account and she needed a technician to come fix it. She specifically said a technician and when I questioned her what the issue was she said it really really was not a big deal. It would be fixed momentarily.

Man, attendants are terrible liars!

I started to observe that a security guard was stationed suddenly about fifty feet to the East and speaking on his radio. And another was stationed to the south of me also about fifty feet away. And yet another equidistant to my North and West.

Getting into position to cut off all exits. Genius. But I wasn't worried. I am not a criminal and hell, I wasn't even using other players cards. I was signing up for my own card, for Pete's sake.

Sure enough, the security details were for me and moved in tighter in unison (a gauntlet I suppose) and there we were, me surrounded by security in January 2016.

A security supervisor (not the one holding me in June 2019) approached me.

"Sir, we have to detain you until the police arrive. There is a warrant out for your arrest."

"WHAT??? I don't have any warrants!!!"

"Oh, yes you do. That I am certain of. I don't know the details but It's pertaining to the incident in Pennsylvania."

Giving up too much information is always a problem with these security guys in my opinion.

At any rate I now knew who had contacted the Golden Nugget and why. It was the Valley Forge Casino since that is the only Pennsylvania incident I had and it had occurred about three weeks earlier. I was still at a loss about the arrest warrant. Don't worry, the valley forge incident is coming up and will be discussed here in a different post. Time jumping in this history is required.

But to continue I am surrounded December 2016 notified I have a warrant out for my arrest.

"Well, you are wrong. I have no such warrant."

"Well, you will see how real it is when the officers arrive. They are already on their way. We notified them as is our duty and we have to detain you. We would appreciate if you come to the back room with us."

I refused and they tried the psychological trick of saying how embarrassed I would be handcuffed in public (really it's like a bad script they follow).

I politely refused and we waited near the sign up desk.

About fifteen minutes in, the security supervisor radio squawks. He steps aside and finally returns. "The police have turned around and are returning to the precinct. Apparently, you don't have an outstanding warrant at this time."

"I have never had an outstanding warrant at ANY TIME" I stressed.

The supervisor asked if I still wanted to gamble. I replied affirmative and he instructed the sign up attendant to give me my players card. She confirmed that after earning 1000 points, the $100 freeplay would automatically upload. I did not have to return to the sign up desk.

For the next two or three hours I had fun and earned 1000 points. But my Freeplay didn't load automatically.

Returning to the desk, the same attendant then notified me that it appeared my account had a security lock on it and so I was ineligible for offers. (,Lol, now she tells me???)

I argued she saw the security supervisor give me the okay so maybe he should be called to lift the lock.

She did contact him and he returned. And he took a moment at the computer to lift the lock. Since the offer didn't automatically load, the attendant had to manually load up the $100 offer.

The supervisor apologized for the inconveniences. After all, I had just gambled my money, right?. So he offered a free buffet as reconciliation. The attendant wrote me up a paper buffet ticket at the instructions of the security supervisor, I played off the Freeplay and enjoyed an hour of free food.

And then I left.

Now yes, I was surrounded by security and they certainly had the video of that. But that incident isn't my definition of being trespassed from the property.

And neither was the second incident the supervisor holding me in January 2019 was alluding to either.

We will cover my second incident surrounded by Golden Nugget security...next post.

To be continued

Quote: darkoz

Mission,

Golden Nugget had the best crossover. The 6am thing.

As to handing over even the cards the supervisor hadn't named, you have a good point and any other casino I probably would have stood quiet and kept them under wraps.

I knew why I was caught at golden Nugget and it wasn't because I personally was hot.

It's because their hosts keep close monitoring of the high offers. I'm pretty certain it's automated. That is, a player who takes Freeplay without significant action comes up on a Host computer who then monitors the action for a few days and let's security/surveillance be warned of any red flags.

I was trying to get around this with extra gambling camouflage but there comes a point where you wind up making no money.

Hence, giving up the unnamed cards made no difference. At best they would have been flagged within days. And paying someone to do the pickups for just a few cards plus extra gambling (and putting them in danger of being backroomed) just would not have made sense.
link to original post

That's a good deal! I didn't remember what time their crossover (or anyone else's) was, except I know that the Taj didn't load anything until the afternoon, at which point, you could activate it from the kiosk.

Yeah, my thinking was the fewer cards you have on you the fewer that there ARE to hand over and the less to remember in terms of which cards were confiscated.

You are correct that's what they do there and that's why I got no-mailed. The first thing that they did (at the time) was they would lock out your PIN and then you had to go to player services where they either would or would not let you reset it, which depended on who you talked to, mainly. There would be some kind of message that would also show up on their screen, but I didn't get a clean look at it. Anyway, they let me reset the PIN the one time and then it was dead again either the next day or two days later. I went back and was told I could play on the card, earn points and use points, but the card would not get any other perks in the future, or whatever verbiage they used.

I agree that you wouldn't PAY someone to do it, except you'd give them a percentage and make sure they knew that getting backroomed + trespassed was only a matter of time sooner or later. They wouldn't give any extra play, they'd just pick up whatever they could and let the automated deal kill the cards.

Why do the women on your team have hosts? Why not the men, or is this an all-female team?

Quote: billryan

Why do the women on your team have hosts? Why not the men, or is this an all-female team?
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I had both male and female cards.

I thought it obvious but they saw me, a male playing and not knowing my identity they called the females to ascertain if these were indeed stolen or being used with permission.

Once every female claimed to be my girlfriend it was obvious what was going on. So they killed the offers.

If the women had said no one had permission to use the cards the offers would have stood, I would have been arrested the next time I tried to use the cards (with pins locked until the victims showed to change them and then they would have asked for victims impact statement to present to DGA and a district attorney.

But they weren't getting all that as I clearly had their permission to use the cards

Quote: billryan

Why do the women on your team have hosts? Why not the men, or is this an all-female team?
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I realized I didn't quite answer your question.

The hosts at golden Nugget monitor the accounts.

Obviously they don't care about accounts with $10 or $20 freeplay.

At the time each player card was getting $400 Freeplay five days a week.

following

Loving this series and have to admit I wish I could something similar but I don't live in a place with any nearby casinos that would allow me to do this on the regular.

Quote: ChallengedMilly

Loving this series and have to admit I wish I could something similar but I don't live in a place with any nearby casinos that would allow me to do this on the regular.
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Charter junket flights?

Most of the casinos do has spoken of are several hours from his home. Atlantic City, by bus, is three hours each way.

Quote: billryan

Most of the casinos do has spoken of are several hours from his home. Atlantic City, by bus, is three hours each way.
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haaaad to say the b word didnt ya? ;-)

OK, that is definitely ballsy to say the least to try to run ten cards in a casino where you had several previous incidents with security.

There are several strategic choices you made that I would highlight. Why would you use women at all? If you just use people that could plausibly look like you, then you would eliminate many of these kinds of problems. There are probably enough men that have names similar enough to yours to get the cards.

In addition, heat transfers between casinos shortly after major incidents, but also tends to dissipate quickly. When you have a nuclear blowup somewhere with security and police, I would recommend taking some time off if possible.

Quote: randomperson

OK, that is definitely ballsy to say the least to try to run ten cards in a casino where you had several previous incidents with security.

There are several strategic choices you made that I would highlight. Why would you use women at all? If you just use people that could plausibly look like you, then you would eliminate many of these kinds of problems. There are probably enough men that have names similar enough to yours to get the cards.

In addition, heat transfers between casinos shortly after major incidents, but also tends to dissipate quickly. When you have a nuclear blowup somewhere with security and police, I would recommend taking some time off if possible.
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Generally you don't get caught because of male or female names on cards. Generally you get caught without surveillance ever noticing you physically using the cards.

There is really nothing suspicious about people placing their cards in slot machines and downloading freeplay. Even people with just ten dollars Freeplay will download a dollar at a time and go back for more if the machine has a good feel. So even seeing someone do multiple downloads of freeplay isn't unusual.

So surveillance isn't zooming into patrons using players cards at slot machines.

Generally how you get caught is a host looks in on player's with high offers. He isn't even being a detective. He is doing it to see if a customer with high offers, recently logged in, deserves extra attention, a box of cupcakes sent (and yes I have had that) or an offer for a suite upgrade.

And suddenly he see the patron came, used the offer with no additional play -- five times in a row.

And then he notices a few other patrons with similar activity.

And suddenly surveillance is notified (if cards are not automatically just deactivated).

So male or female, the end result isn't any different.

I agree that using a different gender card works way more often than it seems like it should. But it also seems like a virtually zero cost to just use the same gender. Its a freeroll.

from what i think i know about this topic, the surveillance is notified when the casino lose money

Quote: randomperson

I agree that using a different gender card works way more often than it seems like it should. But it also seems like a virtually zero cost to just use the same gender. Its a freeroll.
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Well that limits my collection to half the population it currently is

Oftentimes you have a guy who gets you cards and wants to bring his wife. She will also get a card for me and his trip just doubled in income.

I do have female workers who could pull cards with just female names. Then when they are sick or for whatever reason do I just leave behind all my female gender cards offers or go and pull them anyway.

Finally, the issue of female names seems simple but it isn't. I have a male who gets me cards named Wendy. Wendy in his homeland of Haiti is a strong male name.

I have a man named Leslie. And a woman named Lou (her middle name is Anne).

Casino operators actually are aware of this in my experience.

I'm sure Marion Morrison would have been very offended if he had been accused of using a female gender card. Marion Morrison is the real name of the actor John Wayne.

Quote: heatmap

from what i think i know about this topic, the surveillance is notified when the casino lose money
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Well surveillance must be on high alert on this site then!

So far, this seems to show an amazing lack of camouflage. If you were taking in $400 a day per card, why not play out 25% of it and throw the hounds off your scent. As Kramer likes to say- Bulls make money, Bears make money, Hogs get slaughtered.

Quote: billryan

So far, this seems to show an amazing lack of camouflage. If you were taking in $400 a day per card, why not play out 25% of it and throw the hounds off your scent. As Kramer likes to say- Bulls make money, Bears make money, Hogs get slaughtered.
link to original post

The casino doesn't care if you only use $100 of your $400 Freeplay. You used it, period.

The Freeplay amounts are based on past history. They are based on an expectation that you will gamble in a similar manner. Taking $100 and leaving is as serious to them as taking $400 and leaving. You didn't play the way that they expected.

Also, while it's called freeplay, it's not actually free. The casino isn't just handing out gobs of Freeplay. I actually earned it at cost.

Cut my return down by 75% and it's impossible to turn a profit.

I can only Imagine the outcry at suggesting to card counters they throw off the scent of the casinos by betting low 75% of the time during high counts and only putting up big bets 25% of the time when they have an edge.

There is camo but cutting your profitable situations by 75% isn't one of them.

Reading is so FUNdimental.
No one suggested you cut your return by 75%. I said that after collecting your $400, why not put $100 of it at risk and play with it. You stated that collecting the $400 and running is what set off the alarm bells. Assuming that was true, the answer seems obvious.

Quote: billryan

So far, this seems to show an amazing lack of camouflage. If you were taking in $400 a day per card, why not PLAY OUT 25% OF IT and throw the hounds off your scent. As Kramer likes to say- Bulls make money, Bears make money, Hogs get slaughtered.
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Bill, it's not my fault you don't speak clearly.

I put in caps the key words you yourself wrote in the above quote.

When an AP uses freeplay, he calls that "playing out" the offers. You saying why not play out 25% of it means exactly what I interpreted.

If you mean why not play out 100% of the offers and then return 25%, you should have written it more clearly.

As for the answer being obvious, sorry but you are wrong. There are AP's who may be willing to chime in but what you THINK is obvious is actually quite ridiculous.

I have already said the hosts at Golden Nugget watch the play. (Funny how you mention reading is FUNdamental.). Your "obvious" solution is to have the hosts say amongst themselves, "well, these patrons take $400 but give $100 back. Our property is only losing $300 per day instead of $400 so that's fine".

Obviously your"obvious" solution sounds ridiculous now doesn't it?

EDIT: And that's not even taking into account that $400 Freeplay DOES NOT equate into $400 cash. It's possible after playing off the Freeplay you only have $250. Especially in properties that disallow Freeplay on VP or VBJ and are only good at slots. So now playing back 25% of that and soon enough you will be ground down to making the play worthless.

This thread is a pretty interesting story, but the in between conversations are quite, silly, to be having on an open forum, imo.

Plays are being killed left and right by people who don't know what they're really doing, or people who want to make $20k instead of $1,000,000. My local shop used to be a place my gf and I would stop in for "sushi" money by making rounds slot hustling for fun on occasion since it was near me. Now days, there's literally (not joking, literally) a dozen slot hustlers in the small place at any given time with 5-6 of them literally camping out noon to midnight every, single, day... which of course drew attention, and drew attention to other, bigger plays too. Geniuses wanted to make $15/hr and not only shot themselves in the foot when they all got the boot, but shot other people in the foot whom were making a zero or two on the end of that per hour.

If you know private information (which is different than sharing already posted/well known public information), passing it around publicly hurts not only yourself, but every other person that also knows it. I don't get why any serious AP would ever do it. I'm not calling any 1 person out or trying to attack anyone, I honestly just don't get why anyone would discuss specific non-public details of plays.

Ego.
I don't understand the need to impress strangers, or even acquaintances, over things like this. I can't help noticing the two or three members that I know are killing the casinos never discuss their earnings or talk of a promo, even after it's over.

Romes,

I agree with your point generally, however there is a counter argument.

I was operating independently from DarkOz but in a lot of the same casinos around the same times without even knowing each other existed. If I had known about some of his exploits in real time or even later, it might have changed my behavior substantially. There are probably certain things I have tried that I wouldn’t have attempted if I knew about how hot a casino was at a given time. Some of my cross conversation with him is trying to get him to rethink a few of the tactics. I know it most likely won't work because we think so differently, but because we are each other's competition, if it did work, it could be a big deal.

I guess the thing that the side conversations do too much of is normalize this as a tactic. On gambling with an edge you hear Bob Dancer saying that this is definitely fraud and that would scare a lot of people off. DarkOz doesn't exactly inspire confidence in the play for other people because he comes off as an over the top character. But the idea that multiple other people are joining in could lead other people to try it out.

Ego.

The Nazis had ego.

The Nazis had developed an uncrackable decodiing machine called Enigma.

However, the British cracked it!

It wasn't ego that Nazis had spoken too much information.

It was ego that they believed being super secret would work.

During the war, it was discussed by German High command that perhaps the Allies had cracked Enigma because they always seemed to be one step ahead of their planning BUT that consideration was dismissed because Enigma was uncrackable and there was no way their secret could have been exposed.

Their ego that no one could ever crack their code thanks to absolute secrecy undermined them.

In my opinion, the AP who is super secret has the bigger ego.

Case in point:. Hundreds of AP's who all believed that a tax day special at the Plaza was super secret information only they knew about even while it was being advertised in national newspapers as far away as Atlantic City!

Anyway, I will post a pinball trip update today and get back to my backroom experience on this thread tomorrow.

Latest mailbag podcast on GWAE brings up the subject. Can we assume someone caught doing this in Vegas can be arrested?

Quote: DeMango

Latest mailbag podcast on GWAE brings up the subject. Can we assume someone caught doing this in Vegas can be arrested?
link to original post

No. It's not illegal anywhere in the US to my knowledge.

Bob Nersessian has defended such cases

It is illegal only if you are using the cards without the player's permission which I never do.

EDIT:. I just listened to the GWAE section and they said a lot of misinformation.

They claimed Bob Nersessian will have no part of these types of cases. I actually retained him at one point in such a case. So that's just not correct.

I think there continues to be a disconnect between using the cards with or without the player's permission. One is legal, one is not.

Driving someone else's car with their permission isn't illegal. Doing it without their permission is grand theft auto. We all can understand this. I don't get why people are having such a hard time doing that with casino cards

Quote: billryan

So far, this seems to show an amazing lack of camouflage. If you were taking in $400 a day per card, why not play out 25% of it and throw the hounds off your scent. As Kramer likes to say- Bulls make money, Bears make money, Hogs get slaughtered.
link to original post

To be fair, it doesn't matter how careful you are or what you do, eventually, you will get caught.

Heck, you could just be a solo AP playing your own card at a location where somebody else is in there doing something stupid(perhaps they're not even really doing anything stupid), and the casino targets you as well, thinking you are with that person.

Sure, there are many precautions you can take to limit your exposure, but all those things make for a more complex inconvenient situation that costs you time and money. You just have to find some type of balance and do as much as you can within reason limit the possibilities of getting spotted, but yet, have it still be lucrative.

Oftentimes, they don't even catch an individual, the casino just figures out what they're doing wrong and they change things up.

Quote: darkoz

Ego.

The Nazis had ego.

The Nazis had developed an uncrackable decodiing machine called Enigma.

However, the British cracked it!

It wasn't ego that Nazis had spoken too much information.

It was ego that they believed being super secret would work.

During the war, it was discussed by German High command that perhaps the Allies had cracked Enigma because they always seemed to be one step ahead of their planning BUT that consideration was dismissed because Enigma was uncrackable and there was no way their secret could have been exposed.

Their ego that no one could ever crack their code thanks to absolute secrecy undermined them.

In my opinion, the AP who is super secret has the bigger ego.

Case in point:. Hundreds of AP's who all believed that a tax day special at the Plaza was super secret information only they knew about even while it was being advertised in national newspapers as far away as Atlantic City!

Anyway, I will post a pinball trip update today and get back to my backroom experience on this thread tomorrow.
link to original post

Godwin's Law, at it's finest.

Quote: billryan

Quote: darkoz

Ego.

The Nazis had ego.

The Nazis had developed an uncrackable decodiing machine called Enigma.

However, the British cracked it!

It wasn't ego that Nazis had spoken too much information.

It was ego that they believed being super secret would work.

During the war, it was discussed by German High command that perhaps the Allies had cracked Enigma because they always seemed to be one step ahead of their planning BUT that consideration was dismissed because Enigma was uncrackable and there was no way their secret could have been exposed.

Their ego that no one could ever crack their code thanks to absolute secrecy undermined them.

In my opinion, the AP who is super secret has the bigger ego.

Case in point:. Hundreds of AP's who all believed that a tax day special at the Plaza was super secret information only they knew about even while it was being advertised in national newspapers as far away as Atlantic City!

Anyway, I will post a pinball trip update today and get back to my backroom experience on this thread tomorrow.
link to original post

Godwin's Law, at it's finest.
link to original post

Darkoz law at it's finest

Darkoz law:. The certainty that the longer a discussion takes, the more Godwin's law will be used not to dispute the truth but as a last and failing attempt to distract from it.

EDIT: I originally was going to make the comparison to the atom bomb. Ultimately the. Nazis are used in comparisons because they are well known which is the primary need for a comparison. Making a comparison to Moro rebellion soldiers who caused genocide of the entire Moro tribe will simply bring about looks of confusion. No one in general knows who perpetrated the Moro genocide.

And before you rush to look up who massacred men, women and even babies in a mass wipeout of an entire tribe, it was us, good old Americans. We can be as bad as the Nazis but doesn't make for good comparison material.

I'd like that to be the end of that discussion. Otherwise it's hijacking this thread.

I suspect you'd also like to be six feet tall. Some things you just have to learn to live with. You bring nazis into a thread and then suggest others are hijacking it?

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: billryan

So far, this seems to show an amazing lack of camouflage. If you were taking in $400 a day per card, why not play out 25% of it and throw the hounds off your scent. As Kramer likes to say- Bulls make money, Bears make money, Hogs get slaughtered.
link to original post

To be fair, it doesn't matter how careful you are or what you do, eventually, you will get caught.

Heck, you could just be a solo AP playing your own card at a location where somebody else is in there doing something stupid(perhaps they're not even really doing anything stupid), and the casino targets you as well, thinking you are with that person.

Sure, there are many precautions you can take to limit your exposure, but all those things make for a more complex inconvenient situation that costs you time and money. You just have to find some type of balance and do as much as you can within reason limit the possibilities of getting spotted, but yet, have it still be lucrative.

Oftentimes, they don't even catch an individual, the casino just figures out what they're doing wrong and they change things up.
link to original post

As you read a posters various threads, patterns emerge. It's no different than sitting at a poker table.

Quote: billryan

I suspect you'd also like to be six feet tall. Some things you just have to learn to live with. You bring nazis into a thread and then suggest others are hijacking it?
link to original post

I didn't say who was hijacking it. Even if it's me, I am saying the discussion should not continue here.

And no, I don't wish to be six feet tall. Then I would have to pay extra for leg room when I fly.

Quote: billryan

Reading is so FUNdimental.
No one suggested you cut your return by 75%. I said that after collecting your $400, why not put $100 of it at risk and play with it. You stated that collecting the $400 and running is what set off the alarm bells. Assuming that was true, the answer seems obvious.
link to original post

I’ll assume you have some experience with freeplay. You don’t collect freeplay. You play it. You keep what you win from it. A lot of the time you win very little. If you have $400 of freeplay and play video poker at $5 a spin for instance, on average you’re going to lose about $40 by the time you play through just the freeplay. Play it through another $400 and now you’re down to $320. You’ve lost 20% of your freeplay while only giving the casino $400 of action. $400 is nothing. It doesn’t even register on their radar. $400 is 80 spins at $5. I’ve legitimately busted out of $400 on 150 $5 spins many many times.

$400 in freeplay means the casino expects you to lose at least $1500 when you go there. That equals about $15k through a slot machine or $30k+ on video poker. That’s a significant amount of play. This is what these hosts expect you to play when you use your freeplay. AC is notorious for cutting off cards, pin locking and removing offers.

Quote: Romes

This thread is a pretty interesting story, but the in between conversations are quite, silly, to be having on an open forum, imo.

Plays are being killed left and right by people who don't know what they're really doing, or people who want to make $20k instead of $1,000,000. My local shop used to be a place my gf and I would stop in for "sushi" money by making rounds slot hustling for fun on occasion since it was near me. Now days, there's literally (not joking, literally) a dozen slot hustlers in the small place at any given time with 5-6 of them literally camping out noon to midnight every, single, day... which of course drew attention, and drew attention to other, bigger plays too. Geniuses wanted to make $15/hr and not only shot themselves in the foot when they all got the boot, but shot other people in the foot whom were making a zero or two on the end of that per hour.

If you know private information (which is different than sharing already posted/well known public information), passing it around publicly hurts not only yourself, but every other person that also knows it. I don't get why any serious AP would ever do it. I'm not calling any 1 person out or trying to attack anyone, I honestly just don't get why anyone would discuss specific non-public details of plays.
link to original post

Yes of course it’s everyone else’s fault that you don’t make that money anymore. Don’t these people know not to kill the gig so you can come in and play clean up?

Quote: Sandybestdog

Quote: billryan

Reading is so FUNdimental.
No one suggested you cut your return by 75%. I said that after collecting your $400, why not put $100 of it at risk and play with it. You stated that collecting the $400 and running is what set off the alarm bells. Assuming that was true, the answer seems obvious.
link to original post

I’ll assume you have some experience with freeplay. You don’t collect freeplay. You play it. You keep what you win from it. A lot of the time you win very little. If you have $400 of freeplay and play video poker at $5 a spin for instance, on average you’re going to lose about $40 by the time you play through just the freeplay. Play it through another $400 and now you’re down to $320. You’ve lost 20% of your freeplay while only giving the casino $400 of action. $400 is nothing. It doesn’t even register on their radar. $400 is 80 spins at $5. I’ve legitimately busted out of $400 on 150 $5 spins many many times.

$400 in freeplay means the casino expects you to lose at least $1500 when you go there. That equals about $15k through a slot machine or $30k+ on video poker. That’s a significant amount of play. This is what these hosts expect you to play when you use your freeplay. AC is notorious for cutting off cards, pin locking and removing offers.
link to original post

I've a bit of experience with freeplay. I just don't see the point of discussing it on a public forum. If you are dedicated to collecting your freeplay and not gambling with it, you can collect over 90% of it on a regular basis. It's twenty years since I played AC with much regularity. Once I started flying to Vegas a couple of times a year, the long bus ride to AC no longer appealed to me, especially from Long Island.

Quote: billryan

Quote: Sandybestdog

Quote: billryan

Reading is so FUNdimental.
No one suggested you cut your return by 75%. I said that after collecting your $400, why not put $100 of it at risk and play with it. You stated that collecting the $400 and running is what set off the alarm bells. Assuming that was true, the answer seems obvious.
link to original post

I’ll assume you have some experience with freeplay. You don’t collect freeplay. You play it. You keep what you win from it. A lot of the time you win very little. If you have $400 of freeplay and play video poker at $5 a spin for instance, on average you’re going to lose about $40 by the time you play through just the freeplay. Play it through another $400 and now you’re down to $320. You’ve lost 20% of your freeplay while only giving the casino $400 of action. $400 is nothing. It doesn’t even register on their radar. $400 is 80 spins at $5. I’ve legitimately busted out of $400 on 150 $5 spins many many times.

$400 in freeplay means the casino expects you to lose at least $1500 when you go there. That equals about $15k through a slot machine or $30k+ on video poker. That’s a significant amount of play. This is what these hosts expect you to play when you use your freeplay. AC is notorious for cutting off cards, pin locking and removing offers.
link to original post

I've a bit of experience with freeplay. I just don't see the point of discussing it on a public forum. If you are dedicated to collecting your freeplay and not gambling with it, you can collect over 90% of it on a regular basis. It's twenty years since I played AC with much regularity. Once I started flying to Vegas a couple of times a year, the long bus ride to AC no longer appealed to me, especially from Long Island.
link to original post

It should not matter to you since your experience with Freeplay in AC is 20 years out of date anyway.

20 years ago they didn't even give you freeplay when you arrived. When you got off the bus they handed you cash.

Maybe that's why you keep using the term "collecting"?

Really? Are you saying Harrahs, Trump, the Trop and the rest didn't offer Free Play back then? That they only gave out bus bonus cash?