AC: Taj Closing
Quote: 7star4nowPress of AC reports Icahn refused $40 million subsidy to save Trump Plaza
“He (Icahn) doesn’t want it (Trump Plaza) open,” Sweeney said. “He doesn’t want the Taj Majal open. So then he comes up with these ridiculous offers — that he’s going to strip all the benefits. Why doesn’t he tell people he’ll keep the place open if they’ll work for free?”
Come on, you have to be realistic. CZR doesn't want Showboat open and Icahn doesn't want Taj open to perhaps allow the remaining casinos to make more money. The Revel reopening may throw a wrench into the plans, but I doubt it.
Nobody questioned why CZR closed Harrahs in MS, even though it was the best overall property they have in that market.
All companies owe their shareholders the best possible chance to maximize shareholder value. In the AC case, this is probably it.
And regardless of what MSNBC and other liberal outlets say, a majority of Americans own stock in these companies through 401K's and IRA's and are better off with the shrinking markets.......as long as they don't work at the closing casinos.
Quote: BozCome on, you have to be realistic. CZR doesn't want Showboat open and Icahn doesn't want Taj open to perhaps allow the remaining casinos to make more money. The Revel reopening may throw a wrench into the plans, but I doubt it.
Nobody questioned why CZR closed Harrahs in MS, even though it was the best overall property they have in that market.
All companies owe their shareholders the best possible chance to maximize shareholder value. In the AC case, this is probably it.
And regardless of what MSNBC and other liberal outlets say, a majority of Americans own stock in these companies through 401K's and IRA's and are better off with the shrinking markets.......as long as they don't work at the closing casinos.
I don't know what over all got said about Harrah's Tunica and why they closed it, but I was there a dozen times, first few while it was the Grand, last couple as Harrah's.
They screwed up buying it. Again, I don't know what due diligence they did, but that entire property was built in the Mississippi River flood plain. I was there twice during flood stage. The entire first floor of both properties (there was a casino+hotel across an expanse from a hotel+spa) were underwater, along with all the streets in that area, several inches to a couple of feet deep. There had to be ongoing, permanent damage happening to the foundations of the buildings, mold issues, and forget about golf/swimming/tennis/anything on the grounds.
They had to run shuttles across parking lots just to get people to leave their rooms to play. It stank. Some entrances were closed. There were sandbags all around. The carpets were tracked up. On and on and on.
I think they just cut their losses and let it go. I would agree that, when the properties were dry, they were the nicest in Tunica. But they had a horrible situation.
Showboat is in a similar situation...as are Revel and Taj Mahal. A few years ago the ocean water was reaching under the Boardwalk in front of Taj and Showboat. A big beach replenishment project was undertaken, widening the beach considerably. But only a couple of years after the project was completed the ocean has reclaimed almost all of that beach, and the water is again creeping up on the Boardwalk. It won't be too long before the waves are lapping at the doors of the Showboat and Taj again.
Revel's Casino was built on the 7th floor, the hotel lobby on the 11th floor.
Seemed silly at the time...
Quote: BozCome on, you have to be realistic. CZR doesn't want Showboat open and Icahn doesn't want Taj open to perhaps allow the remaining casinos to make more money. The Revel reopening may throw a wrench into the plans, but I doubt it.
Nobody questioned why CZR closed Harrahs in MS, even though it was the best overall property they have in that market.
All companies owe their shareholders the best possible chance to maximize shareholder value. In the AC case, this is probably it.
And regardless of what MSNBC and other liberal outlets say, a majority of Americans own stock in these companies through 401K's and IRA's and are better off with the shrinking markets.......as long as they don't work at the closing casinos.
I mainly posted the info to state the reality of those concerned about TAJ.
I share your philosophy, in general, but in the case of Icahn( & AC), free market forces are not always at work.
A situation where the govt purposely creates monopoly entities, thru licensing a limited # of casinos, is not something Adam Smith had in mind.
Vegas seems to get this & is known for taking care of the unions, more than they might otherwise, so as not to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs & invite govt regs, & also to gain a notch in their customer service reputation.
I think one problem is that Icahn finds himself cornered, with of hundreds of millions of $ in bad loans in AC, & is stuck with properties he doesn't know what to do with. He's never shown aptitude for actually running businesses.
He had the chance to sell TP for for $20 million last year but seems obsessed with reducing AC capacity even if it means cutting off his nose to spite his face.
In short, I don't think Icahn is acting like a rational investor in a free market here.
Bonus Vera Coking autographed photo
Quote: JackStraw8004Odds Taj Mahal will be open or closed by Nov 30th. I make them -1.40 to be closed. All wagers have to be in by Nov 1st. Winner will receive fun book and 2 for 1 buffet at Trump Worlds Fair casino.
Bonus Vera Coking autographed photo
I never thought they were closing. Now I think they will- to put pressure on the unions, bondholders and city to the maximum extent. Then the decision will be made as to whether to reopen in spring or just rehab the towers as oceanfront condos. Whatever makes them the most money.
"WILMINGTON, DEL. – The fate of a struggling Atlantic City casino appeared to be hanging in the balance Tuesday as lawyers for its parent company and its main union argued before a judge over whether the Trump Taj Mahal should be allowed to terminate its union contract...Both sides made their arguments in federal bankruptcy court in Delaware, where a judge was expected to rule later Tuesday on whether Trump Entertainment Resorts will be allowed to terminate its union contract...If the ruling goes against the company, Trump Entertainment is likely to say it will close the Taj Mahal on or before Nov. 13. The company was supposed to notify the New Jersey Division of Gaming Enforcement by Monday as to whether it will shut the casino, but said it wanted to see what the judge ruled."
http://www.app.com/story/news/local/new-jersey/2014/10/14/trump-casinos-seek-judge-ok-end-union-contract/17247863/
Quote: 7star4nowFinal word on Taj closing should be today:
"WILMINGTON, DEL. – The fate of a struggling Atlantic City casino appeared to be hanging in the balance Tuesday as lawyers for its parent company and its main union argued before a judge over whether the Trump Taj Mahal should be allowed to terminate its union contract...Both sides made their arguments in federal bankruptcy court in Delaware, where a judge was expected to rule later Tuesday on whether Trump Entertainment Resorts will be allowed to terminate its union contract...If the ruling goes against the company, Trump Entertainment is likely to say it will close the Taj Mahal on or before Nov. 13. The company was supposed to notify the New Jersey Division of Gaming Enforcement by Monday as to whether it will shut the casino, but said it wanted to see what the judge ruled."
http://www.app.com/story/news/local/new-jersey/2014/10/14/trump-casinos-seek-judge-ok-end-union-contract/17247863/
Judge to make " life-or-death decision" on Taj -by Friday
Taj Lawyer:"If you don't grant the ... motion, it's just not viable as a business," ... "Ultimately very quickly the casino will close."
http://www.tribtown.com/view/story/78baa089f22e4c73bf4108046f9eb682/US--Trump-Casinos-Bankruptcy
Quote: JackStraw8004Taj is on a steady decline which is why it should close.
There's also a "chicken or the egg" thing- from a player's POV
How many orphaned players, from closed casinos, would risk their chance of future benefits at another casino who is saying they're likely to close?
That thinking also applies to existing Taj players.
Also, if, in the 1 in 100 chance Icahn is successful via union givebacks, regardless of your political ideology, you're stuck with being around a bunch of employees who feel disenfranchised.
The govt/union is going to call Icahn's bluff and not give him what he demands. Thing is, he's not bluffing. If anything closing the place will more than pay itself off in future dividends the next time he wants to bust a union or extort tax breaks from the government.
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/278711551.html
The union only cares about itself, not it's members (nothing really new here).
Nothing like driving away business from the company your members work for. This isn't like striking in front of a profitable business to pressure the owners to cave. In this case if the union members are going to pull something like that they'll just close the doors.
Quote: sc15The unions are incredibly dumb and self serving:
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/278711551.html
The union only cares about itself, not it's members (nothing really new here).
Nothing like driving away business from the company your members work for. This isn't like striking in front of a profitable business to pressure the owners to cave. In this case if the union members are going to pull something like that they'll just close the doors.
I've never been in a Union. But it seems to me they have outlived their usefulness to a large degree. Back in the beginning of the industrial revolution workers were exploited by business owners. Unions were a great way to improve working conditions and ensure fair wages. But given the current regulatory environment at both the federal and state level in the US. They seem redundant and probably cost their membership more in dues than they get in real benefits. They have severely damaged several major industries in the US in the last 30 years or so. In the specific AC/Taj Mahal case isn't a job with reduced benefits better than no job?
Icahn is not "extorting" anything. He has put hundreds of millions of bucks on the line. It is the state, county and city, despite all their promises and other BS, that have been unable to tame the out-of-control criminality in the city but still expect millions of relaxation seekers to flock to their hellhole.Quote: sc15The govt/union is going to call Icahn's bluff and not give him what he demands. Thing is, he's not bluffing. If anything closing the place will more than pay itself off in future dividends the next time he wants to bust a union or extort tax breaks from the government.
Quote: vendman1I've never been in a Union. But it seems to me they have outlived their usefulness to a large degree. Back in the beginning of the industrial revolution workers were exploited by business owners. Unions were a great way to improve working conditions and ensure fair wages. But given the current regulatory environment at both the federal and state level in the US. They seem redundant and probably cost their membership more in dues than they get in real benefits. They have severely damaged several major industries in the US in the last 30 years or so. In the specific AC/Taj Mahal case isn't a job with reduced benefits better than no job?
The funny thing is the union's complaining their members don't earn a living wage.
So what exactly are the union members paying dues to them for? Seems like they'd be better off pocketing the dues and spending it towards getting closer to a living wage.
Unions are actually great for lousy workers; for good ones? Not so much. Unions make it incredibly hard to fire someone, so underperformers can keep their jobs for a long time. Which is not a good thing for hardworking members.
The real messed up thing is union dues are taken straight out of paychecks. I don't really understand how that's even legal. So a worker can't even refuse to pay union dues when their union does nothing but prey off of them.
https://twitter.com/dnharper
Strategically sounds stupid until after their fate is known. They would obviously be better waiting to see if it stays open and after the 100 million is invested. They gain little striking now and I don?t think they will.Quote: 7star4nowAC Press reporter Derek Harper tweets Judge grants motion for Taj to break Union Contract -but expect a strike - which would close it anyway
https://twitter.com/dnharper
" Carl Icahn says the Trump Taj Mahal casino in Atlantic City, New Jersey, will almost certainly close.
The would-be purchaser of the casino tells The Associated Press the casino's finances are dire"...
"Icahn says even though he won't back out of a deal he made with owner Trump Entertainment Resorts to acquire the Taj Mahal and pump $100 million into it, he wishes he never answered the phone when the company first called him about it."
http://www.scnow.com/news/headlines/article_4c8c167d-9862-5292-8c10-2dbf4c917757.html
Quote: onenickelmiracleI've definitely lost some interest in going a great distance to go there. Spectacle of the city is a big deal and being so limited casino wise spoils it to me. Taj was one of the places I enjoyed, so if it were shuttered, Atlantic City would be devalued in my eyes. Self fulfilling prophecy I can see it.
The marina is still doing fine.
Quote: 7star4nowAP: Icahn says Taj likely to close
" Carl Icahn says the Trump Taj Mahal casino in Atlantic City, New Jersey, will almost certainly close.
The would-be purchaser of the casino tells The Associated Press the casino's finances are dire"...
"Icahn says even though he won't back out of a deal he made with owner Trump Entertainment Resorts to acquire the Taj Mahal and pump $100 million into it, he wishes he never answered the phone when the company first called him about it."
http://www.scnow.com/news/headlines/article_4c8c167d-9862-5292-8c10-2dbf4c917757.html
Update: Icahn just play playing hardball...Nevermind:
Icahn encourages union members to question their leadership while union negotiators seem to think Icahn won't simply walk away from a $285 million investment
via Twitter :
@Carl_C_Icahn Just issued letter to Taj Local 54 Employees: http://www.shareholderssquaretable.com/open-letter-to-taj-mahal-local-54-employees/ …
"Against the counsel of my advisors, I finally agreed to invest the $100 million, but only if they could get the enumerated concessions.
In my discussions with the Company, I was also assured that eliminating Union healthcare would not be detrimental to low-wage employees because under the Company’s plan all full-time employees would be paid an additional $2,000 in wages and would be eligible for healthcare under Obamacare or Medicaid..."
"WHY IS THE UNION PRIORITIZING HEALTHCARE OVER SAVING JOBS?
Based on the Union’s continued chest pounding about “saving health care” the only thing I have concluded these past few weeks is that the Union is far more concerned about maintaining a Union provided healthcare plan than saving your jobs. It’s reprehensible."
"Where do all those millions of dollars provided by the cash-strapped Taj Mahal to the Union, ostensibly for healthcare, actually go? Who is really benefitting from the existence of the Union healthcare fund, you or the Union’s leadership? Is the Union healthcare fund solvent, or does it suffer from the same dire straits as the Union pension fund? As a creditor, I intend to investigate."
Quote: JackStraw8004The city and state have yet to step forward to give the Taj the tax breaks and funds it needs to stay open. If Icahn is publicly announcing the Taj will most likely close the patrons will stay away. It's foolish for Icahn to say it will close if he wants to keep it open.
Per the above news, Jersey Officials badmouthed Carl...and said: "No tax breaks!"
Carl replied: "...that..be the final nail for Atlantic City..."
Carl Icahn says Obamacare could save Trump Taj Majal's 3,000 at-risk jobs
"This isn't the first time Icahn has come out in support of the Affordable Care Act, known as Obamacare, enacted in June 2010. Earlier this year, in an interview with Fox News,Icahn told Neil Cavuto he didn't think businesses should be providing health care. "I'm no expert on it," he said. "But I don't think businesses should be a medical provider. Look, the CEO has enough trouble with his own business… what the hell is he a medical provider for?"
What's next?
Will Bill Clinton announce his Celibacy?
http://upstart.bizjournals.com/entrepreneurs/hot-shots/2014/10/24/carl-icahn-says-obamacare-could-save-trump-taj.html
Hypocrites ... Typical of the left
Quote: JackStraw8004Official announcement is now out. Taj will close on December 1st or shortly thereafter if it doesn't receive the financial package from the city and state it was looking for. Notices have been sent to employees. I'm hoping the city and state doesn't waver on this. No reason to make Icahn a richer man than he already is. He is a ruthless businessman. You don't become #15 on the Forbes 400 without the tenacity to get every last dollar. He is currently worth $25.8 billion dollars.
I might call it "inevitable" but not "official" -yet- we'll see if WARN notices go out soon- they may be holding out for a last minute stay of execution from Christie via tax breaks:
from AC Press:
"Trump Taj Mahal Casino Resort will close Dec. 1 or shortly thereafter if local or state officials don’t give financial help to the casino’s bankrupt parent company, the casino warned this week.
Taj’s bankrupt parent, Trump Entertainment Resorts, had told U.S. Bankruptcy Court Judge Kevin Gross that it needed sweeping changes to its labor deal to save $14.6 million annually and keep the property open past Nov. 13. The company later said Taj would be open through November. In a letter to a union representative, a casino official said Taj could close as early as Dec. 1.
Quote: 7star4nowI might call it "inevitable" but not "official" -yet- we'll see if WARN notices go out soon- they may be holding out for a last minute stay of execution from Christie via tax breaks:
from AC Press:
"Trump Taj Mahal Casino Resort will close Dec. 1 or shortly thereafter if local or state officials don’t give financial help to the casino’s bankrupt parent company, the casino warned this week.
Taj’s bankrupt parent, Trump Entertainment Resorts, had told U.S. Bankruptcy Court Judge Kevin Gross that it needed sweeping changes to its labor deal to save $14.6 million annually and keep the property open past Nov. 13. The company later said Taj would be open through November. In a letter to a union representative, a casino official said Taj could close as early as Dec. 1.
A public service announcement for those prospective AC tourists seeking AC info on the TA board.
If you are planning on visiting The Taj, AC Club, Hilton, Revel, Showboat,Trump Plaza, Sands, Playboy, Atlantis AC, Trump’s World Fair,Golden Nugget Atlantic City,Trump Castle, etc, - you may want to check another board for updated info.
As you can see in this video, new "moderators" & "Destination Experts" are being recruited , worldwide, to upgrade the free & open exchange of opinions on the site- but it may take some time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrXhxmQJSS0
Quote: JackStraw8004WARN notices were sent out quite a while ago when the Taj first said they might close.
The exceptions to 60-day notice are:
(1) Faltering company. This exception, to be narrowly construed, covers situations where a company has sought new capital or business in order to stay open and where giving notice would ruin the opportunity to get the new capital or business, and applies only to plant closings;
http://www.doleta.gov/programs/factsht/warn.htm
Quote: 7star4nowThe exceptions to 60-day notice are:
(1) Faltering company. This exception, to be narrowly construed, covers situations where a company has sought new capital or business in order to stay open and where giving notice would ruin the opportunity to get the new capital or business, and applies only to plant closings;
http://www.doleta.gov/programs/factsht/warn.htm
Delaying the close date just means that they've given more than 60 days notice, doesn't it? There's no problem with super-compliance, is there?
Quote: rdw4potusDelaying the close date just means that they've given more than 60 days notice, doesn't it? There's no problem with super-compliance, is there?
Or- is it a loophole for further negotiations?
I personally believe Icahn wants to gamble $100 mil vs losing certain $300 mil debt via BK- under his terms- re union & taxes.
Quote: 7star4nowOr- is it a loophole for further negotiations?
I personally believe Icahn wants to gamble $100 mil vs losing certain $300 mil debt via BK- under his terms re union & taxes.
Lots going on. Trop benefits from a Taj closure, so losses are mitigated. Union employees can find lots of things to do for $12/hour with no benefits. Probably not worth working 3rd shift in a smoke filled craphole when they could just take the train the other direction instead everyday and wind up in Philly working 1st shift crappy-but-smoke-free jobs for the same money.
Quote: vendman1Out of curiosity. I tired to log into my players acct. on the Taj website. It's says "we are unable to log you in, please try again later". This is the same message I've been getting since Monday. I figured if they were going down the tubes I'd make one last trip, and use up my points. Maybe not.
Hey vendman1,
The Taj's website is still operational. I just signed in to check my offers, and then I logged out.
Quote: gamblor88I recently signed up as new member at the Taj Mahal in Atlantic City.
They were offering a promotion where they promised to give you 20x the normal slots point on your first visit.
The lady at the players club was very vague about the details. Im not normally a slots player but the promo sounded good.
Not wanting to pump hundreds in the machines with no reward I pressed for details.
The Woman explanation was very poor and I asked for the manager. He explained I had to generate at least $10 in points to qualify and no video poker.
As I left I asked the woman what my first trip meant and she said it was 48 hours from when I signed up. There were no written terms.
I lost a few hundred in the machines and generated a heap of points. But most of my play was in second 24 hours.
When I returned a few days later to claim the promotion I was told only the first 24s of play counted and I didn't qualify.
I was furious. I tried to explain what had happened but the woman behind the desk (a fat middle aged lady with a grey bob) screeched at me in
the rudest possible way accused me of lying and that her friend the other lady had explained everything perfectly.
She had no understanding of why I would be angry about something like that and then threatened to throw me out if I had anything else to say about it.
So my warning is to avoid this promotion and no trust any claims made by the staff at the Taj unless you have it in writing.
Mark
Hey Mark, thanks for the heads-up. It's a good idea to have offers in writing, which is easy to do. Just print the offers out like the one below, right from the Taj's website:
Also, photos of the offers are "insurance policies". Sooner or later, a disgruntled shiftmanager will back-charge your credit card in the amount of $950 per night after he evicts you as an AP. You're better to have the photos to dispute the the back-charges.
Here is an example of an "insurance policy" which shows $0 per night, not $950 per night.
Quote: 7star4nowA public service announcement for those prospective AC tourists seeking AC info on the TA board.
If you are planning on visiting The Taj, AC Club, Hilton, Revel, Showboat,Trump Plaza, Sands, Playboy, Atlantis AC, Trump’s World Fair,Golden Nugget Atlantic City,Trump Castle, etc, - you may want to check another board for updated info.
As you can see in this video, new "moderators" & "Destination Experts" are being recruited , worldwide, to upgrade the free & open exchange of opinions on the site- but it may take some time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrXhxmQJSS0
WOW, a TA "Destination Expert" has uncovered what he believes is a massive conspiracy designed to censor AC tourism discussion:
by easydave:
"I also often suspect some members, anonymous or not, may have vested interests to steer discussions to deletion by encouraging non-travel related chit-chat—and some may even be paid local business staff who have figured out enough “inappropriate” reports by so-called “community” can get any post/thread deleted by TAs automated system—as far as I know no human moderator is initially needed for that!"
I'm not sure what this means, but it is "sobering", or may make one want to be so?
clientele that spend the holidays at the casino. By not scheduling shows at that time they are losing a large portion of the business that comes there during a slow time. I think this another telling sign that the doors will be shut the first week of December.
Quote: I think this another telling sign that the doors will be shut the first week of December.[/q
I agree, but Icahn is playing out one last Hail Mary.
I believe he's willing to gamble another $100 mil under 3 new conditions.
First 2 he got- reduced competition in AC & breaking the Union Contract.
The third, which may seem impossible, tax breaks, could be a longshot -when he pronounces , shortly before Christmas, that 3,000 more AC workers are losing their jobs, 2 weeks before the Holiday, because evil govt officials won't approve tax breaks to support AC's future.
He may have the politicians in checkmate, strictly in a PR sense.
"Trump Taj Mahal Workers Receive Amended WARN Notices
By Chris Coleman October 29, 2014 3:51 PM
'Harry Hurley has learned and confirmed that Trump Taj Mahal Casino Resort employees have received amended federal WARN notices and the casino could close in December.
The amended letter, dated October 27th, says the Trump Taj Mahal was hoping to receive additional financial assistance from Atlantic City and/or the State of New Jersey and also from their secured lenders to keep the casino open. However, without that financial assistance the company expects Trump Taj Mahal to close on or just after December 1st and all operating units would be terminated between then and December 15th."
Read More: Trump Taj Mahal Workers Receive Amended WARN Notices | http://wpg1450.com/trump-taj-mahal-workers-receive-amended-warn-notices/?trackback=twitter_top&trackback=tsmclip
