Wizard's Blog

B. Its rude to be late for appointment. Some people thinks its funny that they are always late like it is just part of their DNA. I am way too OCD to be late and move all my clocks forward by 5-10 minutes.



It's also rude to be real early too, I hate that guy almost as much!

Going through this right now with one of my best friends who is out of work. I am also half German so maybe thats why I'm doing the C thing right now. B is definitely the best option though and probably the most healthy. Easier said than done though.

If I can do something else while waiting, then i'm annoyed but not angry. If I'm forced to just sit around waiting for someone, then I quickly reach the latter part of C.

I usually just do A if I know the person can't help it. Really some people just can't. I mean I will probably be late tomorrow for the

2009 Procrastinator's annual meeting.

"Sorry I'm late ..."

"That's okay, you usually are."



Ever notice how young attractive women simply do not tolerate a man being late.

Are you mad my article is delayed?

"Are you mad my article is delayed?"



No. You're good with me Nick. What brought this is on has nothing to do with the forum.

I go with 'A' for the most part, with some exceptions.



I find there are people who assume that one party will be late, and that it is a matter of a game with them to make sure that they aren't the one made to wait. If both play the game, it escalates. With one friend to keep it from getting worse I try to be 10 minutes late when I know he will be aim for 15 minutes late. Blowing off the friendship is not an option in this case.

Do what I do for tardy people if I want to meet at 2 I tell them to meet at 1:30

Quote: Nick

Do what I do for tardy people if I want to meet at 2 I tell them to meet at 1:30

HABITUAL TARDINESS... I don't have much tolerance for people like that. To be honest, I ended friendships because of that. In that case D), terminate all contact with the person would be the only answer.



For people who are late once or twice, not habitually, I don't make a big deal of it.

Shouldn't this have been posted on the forum?



Anyway, I'm obsessively punctual. If a movie doesn't start at the appointed time (plus/minus 2 minutes to allow for minor time-setting differences), I get very annoyed. If my flight doesn't leave on time, I get really very annoyed. This ahs actuallys erved me well in my current job, because many things ahve to be done by X:XX time on the dot at the latest, or you get disqualified. I've never been late to any of them. Also I've never missed a flight, a dcotor's appointment or even a hotel or restaurant reservation.



One thing I do is set a waiting period and then leave. Then I explain to the tardy person "I waited 30 minutes and you didn't arrive, so I thought you weren't going to show up." If I'm feeling particualrly mean, I'll add "Please forgive me for being ON TIME"

"Shouldn't this have been posted on the forum?"



I thought about it. However, with my latest ranting about religion and the blog entry about doing business with friends, I'm worried about coming off too negative and mean. My forum is more of a place for me to vent -- my own free speech zone. I've been going through some tough times and have been rather irritable lately. I didn't want to broadcast yet another rant to a wide audience, so I put it here. Thanks for listening.

If clocks had been common in Roman times, tardiness would have been one fo the mortal sins. Or it should be.



Rant away if you want. I assume as a fellow puncual person you find tardiness worse than any number of other social offenses. And I think we'd all understand letting off some steam from time to time. We can even have a section "Wizardly Rants" jus for the purpose, so poeple would know what they're in for.



In any case, I usurped your prerogative for the Spanish word of the day based on this post. I hope you like it.

Practices vary. In Los Angeles, one arrives anywhere from twenty minutes to a few hours late for a party. In Scandinavia, if you are 15 minutes late for a dinner invitation you apologize to the hosetess. I knew one young lady who returned to the UK where people were more punctual because she simply was not used to the Los Angeles practices wherein people accepted invitations but either did not show or showed up quite terribly late. She just was not used to guests showing up two hours late.



Now for less formal social engagements its often still annoying but we don't get too upset about mild tardiness but that is often because it simply is too annoying to us to get upset over it.

I'm closest to "C". Native and German, I'm either stoic or irate. There's not much middle ground. If you're late here and there, or late to an outting when I have all day, I usually won't mind. But I'm a working man with a 2 year old and a wife, my "free time" is few and far between, and precious indeed. I won't suffer the wasting of my time because you can't be responisble. I might extend leniency to "new friends" but old friends know, if they're not on time, I'll have already started without them. Dinner, fishing, golfing...you snooze you lose. I've ended 1 friendship due to habitual tardiness. I don't have time for it.

Habitual tardiness borders on the passive-aggressive as far as I'm concerned, and will continue as long as it's tolerated. You can forgive it once, but when it happens over and over without any good reason, don't pander to that person.



It's a control issue; if they know you'll wait for them they have control over you and the situation. But you don't have to say anything to let them know how you feel and you don't have to hold in your anger either and make yourself sick.



If you tell everyone that dinner starts at 7pm and all but the one person is there, serve the dinner. The people who are on time should not be punished for being punctual. If the person who is late ends up eating cold leftovers, so be it. And if next time that person is late again, let him eat cold leftovers again.



I once worked with a man who was 30 minutes late every single day. His boss got tired of it so he changed the man's hours to start a half-hour later. Guess what? He was still 30 minutes late every single day.

I'd have to go with B initially, but progress to C as it keeps happening. I tend to run as an early person when I have meetings or appointments, so I think that has something to do with me getting fed up about late people. Unfortunately, as one who has to run meetings at work, all that means is I have about 10 minutes of dead time,while I make small talk and deal with those who show up 5-10 minutes late. I'm 25% German, but 25% Swedish and 50% Japanese, so what does that tell you....



-B

I'm about 50-50 between B & C. We have some friends who are always late. One couple were finally chewed out after we missed 2-3 innings of the Cardinals game waiting on them (they had the tickets). That actually corrected their behavior for the most part.



One of my wife's best friends is always very late. She always had an excuse, usually a lame one. Now she uses her son as the excuse. How can a 5 year old make you 2 hours late to a birthday party? (And why couldn't you at least call & let us know?) Talking to her has had no impact, so now we invite her an hour earlier than everyone else. That more or less gets her there reasonably close to everyone else.

I have found habitual lateness comes from of two things:



1. The person is scatterbrained and generally disorganized in life

2. The person is an arrogant attention-whore.



Ross Johnson of RJR-Nabisco freely admitted he was the second type and would always be late to "make an entrance." They said when George W Bush took over one thing holdovers from Clinton had to get used to was when Bush said a meeting started at 1:00 it started at 1:00 and if he said it was 30 minutes it was not a minute longer. I swear if it was not for my grandparents, who got to Church an hour early I kid you not, it would have been in 1st grade at Catholic school before I would have known how Mass started. I *hate* being late. I hate people who are always late. What is so hard about being somewhere when you are supposed to?

But time is relative. We all experience it differently. For some it moves quickly, for others slowly. I think this may be why some folks are constantly running late. Try this experiment: Using the stopwatch on your phone, or even a wristwatch with a second hand, see if you can accurately predict when two minutes have passed without watching the time. Were you early, late or dead on? How does that match with your feeling regarding promptness?

I feel your pain. And I don't know the answer. I married one. I guess I put up

with it, we're still married.



Now, if I may vent a moment. We go to the outlet mall. I'm going to walk around for

exercise, so I say "I don't care how much time you want to spend here, just tell

me when you want to meet, and if you get hung up, call me and let me know".



Guess what. When I get a call, it's about 10 minutes AFTER we were supposed

to meet. What's so hard about calling ! Besides that, she's a good wife.



So, definitely not "A". It is a big deal, it's rude, it's disrespectful, it's annoying,

it's........

ps:



re - "I've been going through some tough times and have been rather irritable lately".



I hope things are looking up by now. If not, hang in there.

I was in an accident 15 years ago and as a result,

my attorney said I should see a shrink as part of

'adjusting' to my injuries. The shrink was always

late for every appointment and had a stupid excuse

every time. I was always his first appointment after

lunch, he was never less than 20min late. One time

he was 30min late, so I left. There's a coffee shop

in the same building on the ground floor and I saw

him in there, sitting in a booth drinking coffee and

and reading a book. I was instantly furious and went

in and told him off. He said he got so involved in the

book he lost track of the time. I told him an appointment

was a verbal contract, and he constantly broke it. The

truth was, he didn't give a shit about anybody but him

it made him feel important to keep people waiting. I

found out later its a lifelong problem for him, having

his head shoved up his ass...

E-Bob:



Well it must not have been easy for the shrink

either, trying to listen with his head shoved up his

ass. I'm not sure what an ideal career would

be for someone with that particular condition.

Politician ?

I had a girlfriend before I got married that was always

late for everything. If we had reservations for dinner,

we were always an hour late because she was never

ready. We lived together for awhile and I saw first hand

how these people operate. She was never aware of what

time it was or how long it took to do anything. This was

because she rarely thought about what she was doing

while she was doing it. Her mind was in laalaaland all

the time, just like the shrink. If she had three things

to do before it was time to leave, she'd start all three and

never have any of them finished by tee time. It drove me

nuts to be around her and I got away from the relationship

before she had me crazy like her.

My wife is always late. It is really her only one major flaw. I occasionally ignore it but sometimes just lose my mind and it seems to get better. Of course she is never late for work or for a plane or for any "have to be on time" events. She just gets lazy and is late. I figure I am sure I have crap I do that bothers her or my friends so I can put up a flaw of hers or others. Now if that was combined with 2 or 3 other major flaws or I what I regard as major flaws, then its time to move on.

I am just taking a shot in the dark and guessing Yosemite. I guess this for the following reasons: The shrubs and trees look like something I would find in Northern California, second you have your daughter with you and Yosemite is a popular family destination. Third putting a bicycle through a tree is something I would think only an artist in Northen CA would do.

I admit I don't know. btw I assume I am correct the tree grew around the bike?



Question that pops to mind is, did hikers chuckle and say "in 20-30 years that will look cool" or is the place so remote and off the trail a bit that it 'just happened?'

Congrats, Mike.

I did find the tree/bike thing using google.



You have me looking up "rim to rim" hiking. The first thing I thought of his hearing about people getting into trouble. The boy scout incident [with fatality] is well known, see link below.



http://www.hcn.org/issues/86/2666

Yes, the tree grew around the bike. I read the story a while ago, and don't remember it well, but it goes something like this: A boy was given a bike he didn't like and hid it in a tree. Perhaps he claimed he lost it to get a new one, I don't know. The tree is in a heavily forested area and not within plain view of anything, so it would have been pretty much undisturbed up in the tree. Decades go by and the the tree grows around the bike and it become somewhat of a little tourist attraction of its vicinity. The owner is now an adult but still lives close by his former bike.



Agreed, Nick, this is something a northern Cal artist would love, but that isn't the answer.

My guesses are Santa Barbara, California, or somewhere in Alaska. Since you are wearing shorts, I will go with Santa Barbara.

"My guesses are Santa Barbara, California, or somewhere in Alaska"



Nope. The foliage is too thick and green for Santa Barbara. Alaska is not a bad guess. However, in the summer shorts can be quite appropriate in Alaska. I think Fairbanks gets into the low 80s in the height of summer.

Rats! I looked it up, and am kicking myself now for not taking more time to think about it, as I am pretty sure I could have gotten it down to the nearest major city. These are fun (Utah hand signs, Where is this?, Venetian bridge...). Maybe "photo quiz" could be a regular feature?

The photo quiz is a good idea. I've also thought about taking pictures around Vegas and asking readers to guess where they were taken.



So, time to reveal the answer. This was taken at the bike tree on Vashon Island, Washington. It is a fairly large island close to Seattle. My father owns some property there, which brought me there in July, when this picture was taken.

Ditto, I think it would be fun to have a weekly

photo quiz. The picture would need to be

something pretty cool, though.

I do agree with you that becoming friends with the people you do serious business with can go sour easily. I remember at my last job that upper management did not like I was so friendly with the people I was in charge of, yet I felt this relaxed management style yielded higher employee morale. Hopefully this experience won't sour you from giving me some other small projects. As you said a simple cut-and-dry deal is probably the best type of work to give friends. Some people have a hard time separating their friendship hat from their business hat. I always believe in respecting the people you work for. If you are friends with them and they criticize or object to your work you have to remember the person is wearing their business hat at the time, the friendship hat will come on later.

Thanks for your comments, Nick. I too have a philosophy of being a nice easy-going boss. Perhaps some might say I can be a selfish a**hole part of the time, who knows. It is hard to see one's own faults. My wife always says people abuse me for my niceness, but that is just the way I am. In looking back, I have always worked harder for bosses that were nice to me, but maybe not everybody responds to sugar the same way I do.



You're good with me Nick. Paying for an article is pretty simple. I like to negotiate the price afterward, depending on the length and quality, but so far I think we've been happy with that arrangement.

Did YOU treat it as you would a business deal? Written specifications of what was to be done and when, written provisions for early termination and dispute resolution? The title under that dotted line should read Businessman. It should not be Friend.



Comparatively small business deal... small in dollar amount perhaps but alertness to pitfalls is still required. A good friend can still be a bad businessman particularly if you've only known him as a friend, not a businessman.

As usual with me, this was a mixture of an oral agreement and Emails. To my discredit, I did not probe deeply the issue of prices and what services/products were to be delivered. I knew this person's normal hourly rate, which was more than agreeable with me.



Usually people pay me for services and my philosophy is that if you're not happy with my work, then don't pay, I wouldn't want your money if you're legitimately not happy. However, that is not an official policy, because some clients will abuse it and pretend to be unhappy to avoid paying. There is often usually an Email chain to fall back on as well, should there be any disputes. It would be too time consuming to make a formal contract for every deal I do.



However, in this case I paid the other party for a service, and was unhappy with the result. So I'm not as used to being on this side of things. Again, lesson learned is that doing business with a friend is like playing Russian roulette. Avoid doing so if you can. Thinking about different hats is not of much help in this case.

"In business, sir, one has no friends, only correspondents. "

— Alexandre Dumas

"In business, sir, one has no friends, only correspondents. " — Alexandre Dumas



Indeed, Dumas is evidently smarter than this dumb ass. Speaking of which, trivia time: In which movie was Dumas referred to "dumb ass," by an illiterate trying to read the cover of one of his books.

It always seems to work better in reverse - making friends in the course of doing business, rather than doing business with friends.



It's always a bad thing when a relationship ends poorly, whether or not it was a good thing that it ended. But IMHO, installing hard-and-fast rules about things like this never seems to work. I think it depends a lot more on grace than on rules.



While I, of course, don't know you or this friend, it would be my guess that there were "grace" problems before between you guys. Was someone always getting "irritated" over things like deciding where to have a drink or having to cancel at the last minute? Did you ever hear him assign motive to other people or to you? Things like that are not a big deal and can be overlooked when you're friends, but it's harder when it's business.



Still, if there's a "rule" to be written as a result of this experience, I would say it's "do business with friends who are graceful in personal matters" rather than "stop doing business with friends."



My $0.02.

Agreed, better to make friends with those you do business with than the other way. There is a lot more that can go wrong with a business deal than having fun, so if you can get through the tough times, you can likely get through the good times.



I also tend to agree that establishing lots of rules probably won't help much. In my case I should have done more, but you can never completely mitigate arguments with contracts. There are lots of contingencies you'll never think of and words in the contract can be interpreted differently.



Yes, it came out that there were some hard feelings I didn't know about when work started. I didn't know until it all exploded. These hard feelings seem to have poisoned the water.



Until this happened I would have never questioned the grace of the other party. He/she was a friend and there was never a cross word in the several years we've known each other.

The answer is The Shawshank Redemption, I knew without googling because I love that movie

Stay true to yourself with this deal Wiz. And btw, I have received the same admonitions from my wife about my business approach - which pretty plainly is highly similar to yours ... ;-)

Sometimes you just can't win. Avoid doing business with a friend and watch that blow up on you when the friend feels snubbed.

Yeah doing business with friends can be a slippery slope. I feel bad that your friendship with this person ended. Sometimes we have to learn things the hard way and your circumstance is unfortunate.



In a similar way I've always felt more comfortable rooming with someone I was not originally friends with than with a friend of mine. I have always feared that being roommates with a friend would totally change the dynamic of that friendship and could very likely ruin it. And even in real estate a lot of times I feel better refering people I know to another agent for a referal fee just to avoid having things get awkward.

Wizard,



You are actually quite generous, and that allows people to take advantage of your friendliness to their personal gain. I've had friendships ruined over business. Once I had contract work to write a computer program and was getting paid by the hour. Alas, I couldn't complete the project (it was too complex, and didn't have the time) and asked him to find someone else. I also really tried to get the project done and hid my project progess thinking I could come up with some breakthrough that would have ended the project with a success. My boss (and good friend) got really upset that I couldn't finish the project, but I just didn't have the ability to program per the business requirement. What I should have done was offer a rebate on some of the money that he paid me, but he was so pissed with me that he just didn't talk to me after that. That was 10 years ago. I really liked him too. He's the one who called me Mimbo.



It's important when dealing with friends and money to dictate what the terms of any business dealing are and never get in a situation where your friendship would be ruined if terms weren't met. Small milestones might be a way to accomplish this (small payments for project goals being met) along with a backup plan should the project fall through.

Of course if I have to pick a side here I pick Team Wizard, but I'm surprised you found yourself in this situation. I suspect if things went this poorly the other guy simply wasn't a true friend to begin with. I know I have true friends, imperfect friendships, and friendships of convenience. I'd only agree to an informal yet professional relationship with people in the first category.

I am so sorry for this, Mr. W. ... there are very few opportunities in life for friendship ... and very few friends we have for a lifetime ...



But, I also disagree with this: "the lesson to be learned here is to avoid doing business with friends, whenever you can, unless maybe if it is a very simple cut-and-dry deal" ... when it comes to absolutes, they tend to close doors not open them ... such absolutes can lead to being closed minded to great opportunities and relationships that may come your way ...

Thanks for all the recent comments. Agreed that my "lesson learned" was overly general. That is why I used the word "avoid," as opposed to "never." I agree, one should never rule out anything. Never say never.



Let's just say that if given the choice in choosing who do to a potentially hairy business deal with, a friend, or a stranger, all other things being equal, I would go with the stranger after the mess that just happened.

I have a box set DVD of Shawshank Redemption. How I got it is quite a story. I sell DVDS and books on Amazon. Went to Denver 2 weeks ago and Blackhawk( to hit thrift stores and pawn shops as it's August in Grand Junction, hot and yard sales about over,

Last Friday hit yard sales one last time as this weekend is a Holiday and will be dead. Air conditioning out in my car and from 8 am till

noon, I did not find anything. But saw an old 1939 plate and emailed a guy who collects them and had to go out in the heat again and get the plates in Redlands. Low end houses there are still over $300,000. Got plates got lost in development. Saw a guy taking down his garage sale sign in drive way and DVDs on garage floor, He had over 100 DVD's appeared to be popular titles and a dozen box sets on floor. Seems he had just sold the rack. I asked what he wanted for the lot and he said make an offer, but only after he took out a disney box set Cinderella, that he said was worth $50. I did not know condition of the single DVD so I said $100 and he said OK.

Got home and found the Dvds were all wide screen, mostly sealed, unrated versions, Special editions. Figure to make $500 on them and had my Unemployed daughter ( and partner ) list the 10 box sets left after I took out Shawshank Redemption. She said the Cinderella was worth $60, And while she was listing the box sets one of them, Stars Wars Trilogy, sold for $70. My Dad always said cast your bread on the water and it will be returned 10 fold. I think my $25 bread for the plates was returned 25 to 30 fold.

But the story is not over. I have fallen arches from working all day as a teen and then standing at night hustling pool. Had a foot

doctor appointment this morning at 10 am. Wife wanted to see the houses in Redlands I had described to her so we went there first.

Saw the old guy I had bought the plates from hanging up a sign. Followed him to his house and helped take the tarp off his 1928

Buick Roadster. Not for sale, just to attract to garage sale. He told me one jerk got pissed, because he would not sell him the hood ornament off it. I don't haggle. If i am buying a lot I just ask the people what they think is fair, and it usually is more than fair. The guy had a black 1941 Cali plate that he was nice enough to let me have for $5 even though every other plate was $25. It was 9:30 so

I headed to the doctors. Saw a yard sale that had a big sign antiques. I was running late, but what the hell! Nope, no more plates.

His mother-in-law had passed way and she had an antique shop. He was selling everything half what it was in her shop. My wife looked at some carnival glass, but we had to go. I saw a $300-500 brand new Huffy mountain bike as I was leaving. No sale sign on

it. Only noticed it because one pedal was missing, The tires still had those strings of rubber on the new mountain tires, so I was sure

it was new. I asked him about the missing pedal. He said he found the bike in back of shop, had no idea how it got there, or where the pedal was. Wife remarked Kevin, son-in-law needed a bike as they were down to one car and no job. I dont haggle so I asked what

he wanted for it. Then I drove to drs with windows down,( no air), and a bike wheel sticking out a rear door tied partially closed with a seat belt. LOL Took bike to son-in-law and daughter. Told Mary Jo she could reimburse me out of next Amazon Split_UP. I mean I had paid $25 for the bike.

That bread only comes back if you are honest about casting it. That's why I told the fella who gets the plates to not reimburse me.

But WIZ I will take you up on lunch or dinner in Vegas someday !!

Great stuff, Mike. It must've taken you a long time to collect all of these. You assumed I was bored but I would've liked to have learned more about these. I didn't even know they used to be made with porcelain on steel until you informed me of this. Although I'm not much into history I'm always interested in learning about other people's interests. And I'm glad I had gotten to finally get my hands on your book.



It would be cool to see pics of you posed in front of the cases.

As usual with something I know little about, much more to this than I ever imagined. Thanks.



BTW I don't think you mean to include the states info listed twice.

I must admit I've no interest at all in license plates as such, but as historical artifacts they are very interesting. For example, I'd like to know more about how cars were licensed at first, how the idea of paltes developed, and so on. I find it odd that people were required to come up with their own plates, too. Also, how did the manufacture of plates wind up in prisons? And is that the rule in other countries as well?

Thanks for the post Mike. It is very interesting how these things started out as almost a home based business, then grew to eventually be taken over by the government.



Some questions regarding the early plates... Since folks were free to make their own plate, why did they use numbers? Were they required to use numbers and not letters? Since they were often house numbers (and homemade), what kept folks with the same house number on different streets from making duplicates?

Quote:

Since folks were free to make their own plate, why did they use numbers? Were they required to use numbers and not letters? Since they were often house numbers (and homemade), what kept folks with the same house number on different streets from making duplicates?

This isn't a direct comment on your display but involved license plates. I read recently in Dubai some people (<36 I guess) have single-digit license plates. Supposedly the right to have such a plate is worth millions. I was wondering if you ever heard of this?

I don't want to give away what the spindles are representing by discussing it here, but it was quite a puzzle. I didn't even have a guess.

Go ahead and give it away. There is a good PDF document that explains why each location was chosen. Each has a unique design of significance to the tribe of that area. In retrospect, I should have taken a picture of the face of each one, but I was getting fatigued with seeing totem poles and Indian art everywhere at the time.

Am I reading correctly that your morning run took 2.5 hours? Did you run 15 miles?

Q: Am I reading correctly that your morning run took 2.5 hours? Did you run 15 miles?

A: I try to do a half marathon (13 miles) on a weekly basis. This would have been about that long. I probably ran about 11 miles that day, including a run to the end of the jetty. The rest of the time was spent fussing with my camera, waiting at red lights, and not running as fast as I usually do, due to not being familiar with the area.

This is awesome, seeing Victoria through someone else's eyes. Did you also see the world's tallest totem pole at Beacon Hill park? There's a whole bunch at Songhees as well (Spindle #1).



I was looking at these at work and someone swore blind that they were new for this year.... he's lived in Vic for the last 20 years...



11 miles is a bit long for me to try and run between them just yet...

I'm not sure that I've run 13 miles in my life (not counting running as a part of another sport). I salute you, sir:-)

Hmm, just checking the route, if you know where you are going, it's about 6.5k end to end. If you don't know, that's a different deal. Would be a quite a nice little challenge. Thanks!



The Times Colonist 10k race actually goes within 50 yards of all of these except for the first one.

Quote:

...it's about 6.5k end to end

Vancouver had a long sculpture route back in 2006/07... some of those parts might still be there.

Never been there, don't know if I ever will, but it's still fascinating to "visit" via the internet.



Keep posting your vacation stuff!

Quote:

I was looking at these at work and someone swore blind that they were new for this year....

If you are ever on the UCDavis campus try and find all the eggheads. Its probably a mile (one way) to get them all if you can find them on your first try. You can combine that with the toad tunnel to add some more milage.

Did you go to the Butchart Gardens while you were there? They are amazing.

Quote: crazyiam

If you are ever on the UCDavis campus try and find all the eggheads...

Quote: hook3670

Did you go to the Butchart Gardens while you were there? They are amazing.

Signs of Lekwungen