Calculating an average bet

I have looked online but cannot find how an average bet is properly accounted/tracked. Is it only new bets made with players money, only bets made immediately after a loss that are considered? Or are 'pressed' bets are accountable too? If a player bets $50, wins, doubles up, is this new bet of $100 considered into his average bet? What if a player wagers $50, wins, then adds another $50 to the pressed bet, is the bet tracked as $50, $100 or $150? Surely any wagers placed on a layout should be considered as an average bet?

The average bet is simply the average of all bets placed, regardless of win/loss. If a player bets $50 then doubles to $100 his average bet is $75.

Thanks for the reply, can I ask what your source of info is? A company that I worked for only tracked bets made after a loss, so any bet that is pressed is disregarded. I'm trying to find out the correct way, if not then at least the most common...

I've worked in Table Games for 15 years and rated several thousand people :). Tracking only bets made after a loss seems incredibly strange to me. I've never heard of it done that way. A player's EV is calculated as [Total Bet] * [House Edge]. A player's total bet is usually calculated is [Average Bet] * [Hours Played] * [Hands per Hour]. The average bet and total bet are regardless of hand outcome.

Quote: PopCan

I've worked in Table Games for 15 years and rated several thousand people :). Tracking only bets made after a loss seems incredibly strange to me. I've never heard of it done that way. A player's EV is calculated as [Total Bet] * [House Edge]. A player's total bet is usually calculated is [Average Bet] * [Hours Played] * [Hands per Hour]. The average bet and total bet are regardless of hand outcome.

Are all bets included in determing average bet? I thought I heard somewhere BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP excuse me - Urban Legend alarm went off...anyway, I was under the impression that odds bets on craps weren't included because of the zero house edge.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Are all bets included in determing average bet? I thought I heard somewhere BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP excuse me - Urban Legend alarm went off...anyway, I was under the impression that odds bets on craps weren't included because of the zero house edge.

That's correct. There's a couple ways to rate craps.

1) Have a single average bet that covers all bets (except for the odds). Then have an indicator as to how much of the average bet was placed on prop/field bets. The indicators are usually: "Hard" for little to no prop/field action, "Average", or "Soft" for heavy prop/field action.

2) Have two separate average bets for the rating, one for "Hard" bets and one "Soft" bets. Neither of those would include odds.

Calculating an average bet long-term of a game is based upon its rules, and standardized rules of play. Blackjack is well known, and games like Car. Stud are generally base upon % of ante's raised. Once a player varies the initial wager, it becomes more complex. Again, counters in BJ have a guide if they follow the rules, and figure their spread. Craps, is a quite different, as free-odds and center-props factor out/in respectively. Pit Bosses look at general history at craps and are guided by action - free odds.

If you are talking about how your average bet is calculated for casino comps with the Caesars/Harrah's properties, then you are talking about one of the great mysteries that can be included among other great mysteries such as how were the pyramids built and where is Jimmy Hoffa?

Unlike playing with a casino card in a machine, rating your table play is arbitrary, capricious and probably unreasonable and totally inaccurate. LOL

You are hoping and praying that the floorman or dealers watch your actual bets, take pressing of bets into account, and really watch what you are doing.

They really have other things to do.

For the most part they'll look at your buy in and your initial spread, and then -- good luck to you.

I've been at craps tables where I started with $130 across, $25 pass, and full odds and half an hour later I had more than a thousand dollars on the table, a rack full of chips and my average bet never moved higher than $155 (odds not counted). And during four hours of play, when other bets were pressed my average bet was still considered to be my initial spread.

This is why you should always "check out" with the floor and ask them how you were rated.

The other big mystery with the Caesars/Harrahs properties is how your average bet is figured toward your comps. No where is it spelled out, unlike slot and video poker play which is spelled out.

by the way, the developers of RFID chips and gaming systems tried to sell their systems as a solution to this problem. The RFID systems in blackjack can keep tracks of actual bets in each position, but I don't know of any casino using the system -- though it is out there and I have seen it at the manufacturer's demonstrations. They also said that it is possible to have these measuring systems for craps using the latest RFID technology but I never saw an actual working model of a craps game that can track actual player bets.

The monitors for counting chips are under the table layout and measure the chips in a particular radius above the sensors. These are easy to install and use on a blackjack table, but you can envision the problems on a craps table where chips can be falling all over each other on place bets and hardway boxes.

Quote: PopCan

I've worked in Table Games for 15 years and rated several thousand people :). Tracking only bets made after a loss seems incredibly strange to me. I've never heard of it done that way. A player's EV is calculated as [Total Bet] * [House Edge]. A player's total bet is usually calculated is [Average Bet] * [Hours Played] * [Hands per Hour]. The average bet and total bet are regardless of hand outcome.

Do you track side bet at all, separately or jointly? May be only the participation? Do you give comp credits to side bets? I know some casinos give comps to Trip in Ultimate Texas. Lucky Lucky in BJ always get bets.

Quote: AlanMendelson

The other big mystery with the Caesars/Harrahs properties is how your average bet is figured toward your comps. No where is it spelled out, unlike slot and video poker play which is spelled out.

Yeah this is a mystery. The slot and VP is standard throughout every casino, whereas the table game play can vary wildly. I notice when I play BJ in CB with not as favorable rules I get a few more points than when I do at Horseshoe Southern Indiana, where they are fewer. However, tiles, which is the same or better in Atlantic City, gets more points than action at HSI, with less favorable rules. Regardless, they nearly ALWAYS are much less than what you should get.

Quote: AlanMendelson

by the way, the developers of RFID chips and gaming systems tried to sell their systems as a solution to this problem. The RFID systems in blackjack can keep tracks of actual bets in each position, but I don't know of any casino using the system -- though it is out there and I have seen it at the manufacturer's demonstrations. They also said that it is possible to have these measuring systems for craps using the latest RFID technology but I never saw an actual working model of a craps game that can track actual player bets.

Ameristar Council Bluffs used the system for a while, though they don't use it anymore. I think it was too tough on some games to implement it, and it did allow for a bit of cheating, if somebody changed their bets and the dealer forgot to hit the button. I've seen it at two other casinos, one I can't remember (maybe in PA?) and the other Four Winds in Michigan. I don't know if they are currently using the system anymore.