Coronavirus math
Quote: billryanNew Mexico has shut off the city of Gallup. As of 5 PM, all entrances and exits on US 40 will be closed, traffic in and out of town is heavily restricted, and what amounts to an overnight curfew will be in effect.
Why? Anything specific to Gallup that is different from similar towns in the area?
Quote: SOOPOOWhy? Anything specific to Gallup that is different from similar towns in the area?
The health care system is overwhelmed. Something like 1,000 cases in a short time, two hundred in 24 hours. It has three or four exits on US 40, with lots of fuel stops, fast food places and budget motels. I stayed there driving from NYC with my dog.
It is a semi-tourist town, with amazing star gazing.
Quote: KeyserThese doctors say we're making a mistake by sheltering in place.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7tlluo?fbclid=IwAR3MxydAd8acz5LsuWn3T38Q2Wl1SNHwRJA4k4NX18_lUlElZO0I0mcSJyE
FAKE NEWS.
Their data is totally cherry picked. They take test data they preformed at THEIR urgent care centers and extrapolated it to the county assuming they had a RANDOM sample. Random people don't go to an urgent care for a Covid-19 test.
https://www.bakersfield.com/news/two-bakersfield-doctors-cite-their-testing-data-to-urge-reopening/article_eb1959e0-84fa-11ea-9a07-2f2bea880bf9.amp.html
Rightly so, their video was taken down from YouTube and dailymotion should definitely follow.
https://www.turnto23.com/news/coronavirus/video-interview-with-dr-dan-erickson-and-dr-artin-massihi-taken-down-from-youtube
Quote: billryanThe health care system is overwhelmed. Something like 1,000 cases in a short time, two hundred in 24 hours. It has three or four exits on US 40, with lots of fuel stops, fast food places and budget motels. I stayed there driving from NYC with my dog.
It is a semi-tourist town, with amazing star gazing.
Quote:
“I recognize this request is unusual and constitutes a drastic measure, and the emergency powers set out under the Riot Control Act should be invoked sparingly,” said Mayor Bonaguidi. “However, the COVID-19 outbreak in the city of Gallup is a crisis of the highest order. Immediate action is necessary.”
https://www.gallupnm.gov/CivicAlerts.aspx?AID=844
It turns out that many residents of the nearby Navajo Nation depend on the shops in Gallup and are now cut off from their normal food supply. They say thousands of households don't have running water and depend on bottled water they buy in Gallup. The Nation has been ravaged by CV19 and is now cut off from the nearest town and its stores. Now they will need to shop in other towns that have mostly escaped the virus thus far.
Quote: billryanSome interesting developments in Gallup.
It turns out that many residents of the nearby Navajo Nation depend on the shops in Gallup and are now cut off from their normal food supply. They say thousands of households don't have running water and depend on bottled water they buy in Gallup. The Nation has been ravaged by CV19 and is now cut off from the nearest town and its stores. Now they will need to shop in other towns that have mostly escaped the virus thus far.
This is the sort of thing the Federal Govt should be managing. Reservations are under federal purview. There should be pallet drops either by truck or air that bring in water and basic food supplies so people can be properly quarantined, along with medical deployments from the military/NIH/FEMA to get them the help they need. But instead I suspect they'll be left to rot.
And no, this is not political commentary. It's basic civics, just as hurricane relief or flood victims are served.
Quote: beachbumbabsThis is the sort of thing the Federal Govt should be managing. Reservations are under federal purview. There should be pallet drops either by truck or air that bring in water and basic food supplies so people can be properly quarantined, along with medical deployments from the military/NIH/FEMA to get them the help they need. But instead I suspect they'll be left to rot.
And no, this is not political commentary. It's basic civics, just as hurricane relief or flood victims are served.
There's a word you don't hear very often these days! C-I-V-I-C-S. Hmmm, haven't heard that since I was in the Boy Scouts.
Babs, haven't you gotten the memo? Civics ain't part of the economy. We gotta jumpstart the economy, not the civics!
Yeah, some basic American sensibilities have become prehistoric. I guarantee you, "civics" is not going to be a word used in any analyses of why the U.S. needs to reopen.
I stayed in Gallup a couple of times driving cross-country in the last five years or so. The west is going to experience these intense flare-ups with whole towns isolating. Going to be a mess.
https://www.statnews.com/2018/09/26/cdc-us-flu-deaths-winter/
I certainly hope the US imposes sanctions on China for the mishandling of this virus.
Quote: KeyserAt the current rate the Chinese Covid 19 virus mortality rate could catch up to the 2018 flu, back when 80,000 people died in the US. Keep in mind back then we had a vaccine for the flu, but don't have one for the current virus that orginated in Wuhan China. I wonder just how many people would have died back in 2018 if we didn't have that vaccine?
https://www.statnews.com/2018/09/26/cdc-us-flu-deaths-winter/
I certainly hope the US imposes sanctions on China for the mishandling of this virus.
So with 60,000 dead in two months from COVID-19 vs 80,000 in 12 months from "the flu," I think it's safe to assume the current pandemic is something of a greater challenge that the 2018 flu.
I guess when we tally things up next March, we'll have an appropriate comparison. I'll make a note to repost this in March 2021.
And isn't it Jan to Dec?
Quote: KeyserWell, no. Because we had a vaccine for the flu. So we should probably at least double the number of flu deaths from 80,000 to 160,000 to make it fair, right?
And isn't it Jan to Dec?
Well, the lack of vaccine or any natural antibodies among the population is one of the (many) reasons of exactly why people and governments should take this pandemic way more seriously than the effing flu. Its overall damage potential is way more powerful than any other viral disease we had to handle in at least the past 100 years or so.
Quote: KeyserWell, no. Because we had a vaccine for the flu. So we should probably at least double the number of flu deaths from 80,000 to 160,000 to make it fair, right?
And isn't it Jan to Dec?
Nice try but no. If you want to draw comparisons between how much of a threat the virus is, you have to factor in the presence of vaccines.
I am just guessing, but perhaps the average death from COVID-19 has taken away 5 years of life expectancy per death. The average MVA death might be 25 years. It looks like the average age of car crash fatality is around 40, while the average age for COVID-19 death seems about 75.
So the 40,000 MVA deaths I believe are far worse than the likely 100,000 COVID-19 deaths.
Just for perspective....
She said she is just so weak, that even the cell phone feels heavy. But today was first day she was able to walk to the bathroom herself, and make it back to the chair. She also said she is eating much better.
She has not seen a friend or relative in 3 weeks now. (Except facetime). How hard must that be.....
https://www.timesofisrael.com/pompeo-says-enormous-evidence-virus-came-from-chinese-lab/
Looks like the virus did escape the lab after all.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/pompeo-says-enormous-evidence-virus-came-from-chinese-lab/
Looks like the virus did escape the lab after all.
Quote: KeyserPompeo says there's "enormous evidence" coronavirus originated in Wuhan lab
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-03/pompeo-says-enormous-evidence-links-virus-to-wuhan-laboratory?fbclid=IwAR1HMTMCySNSeo5q0D0zDI4i_VHEKlfB5TK_4ogcVigfKqGKDMm15lyA_HQ
Looks like the virus did escape the lab after all.
Maybe so (and thank you for picking a fairly reliable news source to link), but anything that man says I assume is a lie. I think it's suited me well so far. And honestly, I don't want it to be true either.
Quote: tringlomaneQuote: KeyserPompeo says there's "enormous evidence" coronavirus originated in Wuhan lab
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-03/pompeo-says-enormous-evidence-links-virus-to-wuhan-laboratory?fbclid=IwAR1HMTMCySNSeo5q0D0zDI4i_VHEKlfB5TK_4ogcVigfKqGKDMm15lyA_HQ
Looks like the virus did escape the lab after all.
Maybe so (and thank you for picking a fairly reliable news source to link), but anything that man says I assume is a lie. I think it's suited me well so far. And honestly, I don't want it to be true either.
If it is true, then what? There are similar viruses in a dozen labs in the US. If it somehow escaped from a lab in Texas or Kansas, would you support punishing that state?
Quote: SOOPOOI've alluded to this before, but in trying to figure out how 'bad' COVID-19 is, we should need to be able to figure out what drop in life expectancy it causes. If there is a disease that causes deaths to younger people disproportionately, that would make it more serious to society. And vice-versa if it causes deaths mainly to the elderly, like COVID-19.
I am just guessing, but perhaps the average death from COVID-19 has taken away 5 years of life expectancy per death. The average MVA death might be 25 years. It looks like the average age of car crash fatality is around 40, while the average age for COVID-19 death seems about 75.
So the 40,000 MVA deaths I believe are far worse than the likely 100,000 COVID-19 deaths.
Just for perspective....
A detailed, but not-yet peer reviewed, study has just been published:
COVID-19 – exploring the implications of long-term condition type and extent of multimorbidity on years of life lost: a modelling study (https://wellcomeopenresearch.org/articles/5-75/v1) .
The conclusion was that on average, men lose 13 years, while women lose about 11 years of their life expectancy. For those who don't want to read the paper, there is a decent summary on Science Times and an even better one available from The Economist. I particularly liked their graphic summarizing the study's results:
Quote: unJonNice try but no. If you want to draw comparisons between how much of a threat the virus is, you have to factor in the presence of vaccines.
Since there was no lockdown or social distancing either for the flu, it makes it challenging to compare it to the flu. If we had done those things during the flu it would have had even less of an effect.
Quote: billryanQuote: tringlomaneQuote: KeyserPompeo says there's "enormous evidence" coronavirus originated in Wuhan lab
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-03/pompeo-says-enormous-evidence-links-virus-to-wuhan-laboratory?fbclid=IwAR1HMTMCySNSeo5q0D0zDI4i_VHEKlfB5TK_4ogcVigfKqGKDMm15lyA_HQ
Looks like the virus did escape the lab after all.
Maybe so (and thank you for picking a fairly reliable news source to link), but anything that man says I assume is a lie. I think it's suited me well so far. And honestly, I don't want it to be true either.
If it is true, then what? There are similar viruses in a dozen labs in the US. If it somehow escaped from a lab in Texas or Kansas, would you support punishing that state?
I would support the responsible entities being punished. Deterrence is an important aspect of penalties and international politics. You don’t think it’s good to disincentivize behavior that leads to dangerous viruses spreading?
Quote: unJonQuote: billryanQuote: tringlomaneQuote: KeyserPompeo says there's "enormous evidence" coronavirus originated in Wuhan lab
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-03/pompeo-says-enormous-evidence-links-virus-to-wuhan-laboratory?fbclid=IwAR1HMTMCySNSeo5q0D0zDI4i_VHEKlfB5TK_4ogcVigfKqGKDMm15lyA_HQ
Looks like the virus did escape the lab after all.
Maybe so (and thank you for picking a fairly reliable news source to link), but anything that man says I assume is a lie. I think it's suited me well so far. And honestly, I don't want it to be true either.
If it is true, then what? There are similar viruses in a dozen labs in the US. If it somehow escaped from a lab in Texas or Kansas, would you support punishing that state?
I would support the responsible entities being punished. Deterrence is an important aspect of penalties and international politics. You don’t think it’s good to disincentivize behavior that leads to dangerous viruses spreading?
How would you punish them? Raise tariffs that end up being paid by Americans? What do you think the Chinese are going to do to the people responsible for killing tens of thousands of their nationals? Unless you think this was an intentional attack, I'm not sure what is a real punishment?
Nice try trying to bait me into a political discussion. You don’t think it’s good to disincentivize behavior that leads to dangerous viruses spreading?Quote: billryanQuote: unJonQuote: billryanQuote: tringlomaneQuote: KeyserPompeo says there's "enormous evidence" coronavirus originated in Wuhan lab
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-03/pompeo-says-enormous-evidence-links-virus-to-wuhan-laboratory?fbclid=IwAR1HMTMCySNSeo5q0D0zDI4i_VHEKlfB5TK_4ogcVigfKqGKDMm15lyA_HQ
Looks like the virus did escape the lab after all.
Maybe so (and thank you for picking a fairly reliable news source to link), but anything that man says I assume is a lie. I think it's suited me well so far. And honestly, I don't want it to be true either.
If it is true, then what? There are similar viruses in a dozen labs in the US. If it somehow escaped from a lab in Texas or Kansas, would you support punishing that state?
I would support the responsible entities being punished. Deterrence is an important aspect of penalties and international politics. You don’t think it’s good to disincentivize behavior that leads to dangerous viruses spreading?
How would you punish them? Raise tariffs that end up being paid by Americans? What do you think the Chinese are going to do to the people responsible for killing tens of thousands of their nationals? Unless you think this was an intentional attack, I'm not sure what is a real punishment?
Wouldn't the support or opposition depend on what the responsible jurisdiction does about factors like censorship and unabashed lies about what is happening as well as flying millions of residents to far off countries while stopping all air traffic from the site to anywhere in the very same country.Quote: billryanMaybe so (and thank you for picking a fairly reliable news source to link), but anything that man says I assume is a lie. I think it's suited me well so far. And honestly, I don't want it to be true either. [If it is true, then what? There are similar viruses in a dozen labs in the US. If it somehow escaped from a lab in Texas or Kansas, would you support punishing that state?
Quote: billryanQuote: tringlomaneQuote: KeyserPompeo says there's "enormous evidence" coronavirus originated in Wuhan lab
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-03/pompeo-says-enormous-evidence-links-virus-to-wuhan-laboratory?fbclid=IwAR1HMTMCySNSeo5q0D0zDI4i_VHEKlfB5TK_4ogcVigfKqGKDMm15lyA_HQ
Looks like the virus did escape the lab after all.
Maybe so (and thank you for picking a fairly reliable news source to link), but anything that man says I assume is a lie. I think it's suited me well so far. And honestly, I don't want it to be true either.
If it is true, then what? There are similar viruses in a dozen labs in the US. If it somehow escaped from a lab in Texas or Kansas, would you support punishing that state?
Possibly. But really individuals are responsible. Entire states aren't responsible for this scenario. Punishing millions of innocent citizens over the actions of a few is wrong, imo.
Quote: billryanI don't generally believe in punishing people for accidents. So all I'm getting from you is someone should be held responsible but you don't know who or how? It's hard to argue with that.
Manslaughter is a legitimate charge for accidents. It's just not as severe as murder for intent.
But the issue to me is more, what can you really do?
I think the old way was to strengthen ties with your friendly neighbors as opposed to insulting them for such a situation. But apparently that was abandoned for a better way.
Quote: rxwineManslaughter is a legitimate charge for accidents. It's just not as severe as murder for intent.
But the issue to me is more, what can you really do?
I think the old way was to strengthen ties with your friendly neighbors as opposed to insulting them for such a situation. But apparently that was abandoned for a better way.
Manslaughter is when someone is grossly negligent, not for accidents.
Quote: tringlomaneQuote: billryanQuote: tringlomaneQuote: KeyserPompeo says there's "enormous evidence" coronavirus originated in Wuhan lab
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-03/pompeo-says-enormous-evidence-links-virus-to-wuhan-laboratory?fbclid=IwAR1HMTMCySNSeo5q0D0zDI4i_VHEKlfB5TK_4ogcVigfKqGKDMm15lyA_HQ
Looks like the virus did escape the lab after all.
Maybe so (and thank you for picking a fairly reliable news source to link), but anything that man says I assume is a lie. I think it's suited me well so far. And honestly, I don't want it to be true either.
If it is true, then what? There are similar viruses in a dozen labs in the US. If it somehow escaped from a lab in Texas or Kansas, would you support punishing that state?
Possibly. But really individuals are responsible. Entire states aren't responsible for this scenario. Punishing millions of innocent citizens over the actions of a few is wrong, imo.
You're missing the point here. The big problem was the cover up. They knew that there had been an accident. They didn't disclose it, they hid it. As a matter of fact they still won't let the CDC or other world organizations in there. They didn't disclose the community spread when they knew it was happening, etc... Chernobyl part 2!
If they would have notified everyone that an accident had take place then we could have shut down travel in and out of the region sooner. We wouldn't have any reason to sanction them. The cover up is why they need to be severely punished/sanctioned. The Wuhan Virus didn't not have to infect the world like this! Communism puts the world at risk yet again!
Quote: billryanManslaughter is when someone is grossly negligent, not for accidents.
Not necessarily mutually exclusive.
Quote: KeyserQuote: tringlomaneQuote: billryanQuote: tringlomaneQuote: KeyserPompeo says there's "enormous evidence" coronavirus originated in Wuhan lab
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-03/pompeo-says-enormous-evidence-links-virus-to-wuhan-laboratory?fbclid=IwAR1HMTMCySNSeo5q0D0zDI4i_VHEKlfB5TK_4ogcVigfKqGKDMm15lyA_HQ
Looks like the virus did escape the lab after all.
Maybe so (and thank you for picking a fairly reliable news source to link), but anything that man says I assume is a lie. I think it's suited me well so far. And honestly, I don't want it to be true either.
If it is true, then what? There are similar viruses in a dozen labs in the US. If it somehow escaped from a lab in Texas or Kansas, would you support punishing that state?
Possibly. But really individuals are responsible. Entire states aren't responsible for this scenario. Punishing millions of innocent citizens over the actions of a few is wrong, imo.
You're missing the point here. The big problem was the cover up. They knew that there had been an accident. They didn't disclose it, they hid it. As a matter of fact they still won't let the CDC or other world organizations in there. They didn't disclose the community spread when they knew it was happening, etc... Chernobyl part 2!
If they would have notified everyone that an accident had take place then we could have shut down travel in and out of the region sooner. We wouldn't have any reason to sanction them. The cover up is why they need to be severely punished/sanctioned. The Wuhan Virus didn't not have to infect the world like this! Communism puts the world at risk yet again!
Yes, sanctioning for a delayed reaction is feasible.
𝐍𝐎𝐓
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/02/us/anti-vaxxers-coronavirus-protests.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
The specific issue is indeed
(a) the coverup by the Chinese: first about the existence of the virus, then about whether it was spread by human-to-human contact, and ultimately about how transmissible the virus was.
(b) the fact that the Chinese government put a lock-down on domestic travel from Wuhan to other parts of China for reasons of public health while they still allowed people to travel from Wuhan to destinations outside the country such as Europe and the U.S. -all of this at a time when other nations were still unaware of how dangerous this virus was because of the Chinese misinformation campaign.
Please trying putting politics aside. I don't understand why anyone can excuse or shrug off the actions of the Chinese.
Quote: gordonm888There does not seem to be any wide-spread reporting on Secretary Pompeo's remarks about 'enormous' evidence for the virus originating from a laboratory accident.
The specific issue is indeed
(a) the coverup by the Chinese: first about the existence of the virus, then about whether it was spread by human-to-human contact, and ultimately about how transmissible the virus was.
(b) the fact that the Chinese government put a lock-down on domestic travel from Wuhan to other parts of China for reasons of public health while they still allowed people to travel from Wuhan to destinations outside the country such as Europe and the U.S. -all of this at a time when other nations were still unaware of how dangerous this virus was because of the Chinese misinformation campaign.
Please trying putting politics aside. I don't understand why anyone can excuse or shrug off the actions of the Chinese.
What would you propose the punishment should be? Raise tariffs, which hurts Americans far more than it hurts the Chinese?
Our intelligence services were sounding the alarm weeks if not months before the USofA took this seriously. Our leaders misled us. At a time the WH was predicting 200,000 dead, we were told that the 15 cases would soon be down to one and that the Chinese President was doing a fabulous job. Why be upset a foreign government misled us when there is plenty of evidence of our leaders misleading us? I expect to be misled by adversaries, not by government.
When the "bat lady," who should have been front-and-center with this, went into seclusion because she was "busy" right after it all started, it was a tip-off.
But let's get one thing straight. U.S. satellites can ID a make and model of car from orbit, so what was happening in Wuhan was not beyond our analytic abilities. Clearly, our intelligence agencies had a really good idea what was happening shortly after it got big.
Quote: redietzPersonally, although I'm left of Marx on most things, I'm from the Pat Buchanan school of international trade. I don't know why we have any relationship with China whatsoever. They lie, they cheat, they steal, they've been tops in hijacking intellectual property for 50 years. Instead of everybody owning 20 China-made polo shirts, how about we each own six American-made polo shirts?
When the "bat lady," who should have been front-and-center with this, went into seclusion because she was "busy" right after it all started, it was a tip-off.
But let's get one thing straight. U.S. satellites can ID a make and model of car from orbit, so what was happening in Wuhan was not beyond our analytic abilities. Clearly, our intelligence agencies had a really good idea what was happening shortly after it got big.
Nations that depend on each other for trade are far less likely to go to war with each other. With the trade the Chinese do with the US comes hundreds of millions of Chinese jobs. A leader should think twice about dropping a hydrogen bomb on California when it will cost his county millions of jobs.
Americans are addicted to cheap goods. A few years ago, I was the Toy Fair when a reporter was interviewing people about the lack of American made toys. I remember a guy from Mattel put it pretty bluntly- American parents would rather give their kids six Chinese made toys over the one American toy that would cost the same.
Quote: gordonm888
(a) the coverup by the Chinese: first about the existence of the virus, then about whether it was spread by human-to-human contact, and ultimately about how transmissible the virus was.
The government of the PRC, like governments in other countries, has (to put it diplomatically), a tendency to paint a too-rosy and optimistic picture. However, let's not get carried away in the accusations. There can be no cover-up about things like how transmissible the virus is if, at that time, it was not yet known. Keep in mind that there was, and still is, a great deal of uncertainty about the behaviour and characteristics of SARS-COV-2. Failure to shout a warning about something that is only known in hind-sight is not a cover-up.
Quote: gordonm888(b) the fact that the Chinese government put a lock-down on domestic travel from Wuhan to other parts of China for reasons of public health while they still allowed people to travel from Wuhan to destinations outside the country such as Europe and the U.S.
I'm trying to imagine the outcry if the PRC had banned travel by non-PRC citizens back to their home countries. And for that matter, why would it be China's job to protect other countries from possible infection by their own citizen's returning?
Quote: gordonm888-all of this at a time when other nations were still unaware of how dangerous this virus was because of the Chinese misinformation campaign.
The idea that key agencies in the U.S. were still unaware in January is not based on established facts.
- on Jan 1 the US CDC Director was briefed by his Chinese counterpart that something serious was going on
- On January 3rd China notified the U.S and other countries that something was going on.
- The following day WHO activated it's incident response system
- On Jan 7 the U.S. activated an incident management system
That's just the tip of the ice berg as it does not include any information provided by intelligence agencies in their daily classified briefings. And keep in mind that the analysts at the CIA and DIA are well aware that the PRC was not always to be counted on for highly reliable data.
If governments are to be held accountable for failing to provide timely and accurate information to the public then a very good case can be made that the leadership in the U.S. and several other countries were just as bad, if not worse, that the Chinese government.
China knew that this virus was transmitted by human-to human contact in early December.
In December, they banned all domestic internet searches (Chinese version of Google) on words and phrases about the Wuhan virus.
They issued an order that all genetic samples of the virus that were being held in Chinese laboratories must be destroyed. Not just "stop analyzing the samples" -the order was to destroy all genetic samples of the virus.
They arrested and jailed 8 doctors who have been characterized as whistle-blowers -who were trying to tell other citizens and newspapers that they were seeing evidence of a potentially dangerous virus.
Later, they told the Chinese public, via public media, to stop asking questions about the origin of the virus on social media. Reportedly, they made it illegal to discuss the virus on social media.
On January 4, WHO reported that the virus was not spread by human-to-human contact, based on what the Chinese told them. WHO did not refute this report until Jan 20, when they finally announced that it was spread by human-to-human contact. This is a key point, because coronaviruses are by definition animal viruses, and the capability for human-to-human transmission is unusual and would not have been presumed by foreign observers.
During January, they banned all travel out of Wuhan to other points in China -indicating they understood the danger of transmission. However, they still did not alert other nations to the problem and placed no restrictions on travel from Wuhan to Europe, the US and other points outside of China. Travelers from Wuhan, China went to Seattle, California, New York, Milan, etc.
And I AM NOT ADVOCATING TARIFFS OR ANY OTHER SPECIFIC ACTIONS AT THIS TIME, I am reporting the results of an Australian newspaper investigation written by an award-winning journalist. The write-up received 6 pages of coverage in a leading Australian newspaper on Saturday .
How in bloody hell can the very intelligent members of this forum absorb this information and not feel like something wrong has happened? This is not irrelevant.
Did China release it on purpose? Doubtful. Why? Because why would they release it purposefully in their own country?
I hope if America ever tries purposefully releasing a virus on our enemies they don't start by releasing it in the US first.
That makes it either accident or not human fault.
Either way our economy is going to be messed up when it's over and we are going to need China and their goods
Try telling the American citizen who has been out of work for this pandemic they should be willing to pay extra now for their imports or American goods
Quote: darkozThis whole pandemic is wrong!
Did China release it on purpose? Doubtful. Why? Because why would they release it purposefully in their own country?
I hope if America ever tries purposefully releasing a virus on our enemies they don't start by releasing it in the US first.
That makes it either accident or not human fault.
Either way our economy is going to be messed up when it's over and we are going to need China and their goods
Try telling the American citizen who has been out of work for this pandemic they should be willing to pay extra now for their imports or American goods
Socrates can't solve mysteries beyond what he can imagine.
Quote: onenickelmiracleSocrates can't solve mysteries beyond what he can imagine.
Is this an insult? Please explain.
I made a reference to an amusement park (without naming anyone, just a quote) and that was labeled an insult.
There is apparently a very thin line on this forum now.
Quote: darkozThis whole pandemic is wrong!
Did China release it on purpose? Doubtful. Why? Because why would they release it purposefully in their own country?
I hope if America ever tries purposefully releasing a virus on our enemies they don't start by releasing it in the US first.
That makes it either accident or not human fault.
Either way our economy is going to be messed up when it's over and we are going to need China and their goods
Try telling the American citizen who has been out of work for this pandemic they should be willing to pay extra now for their imports or American goods
I don't believe anyone is trying to say that they released the Wuhan virus on purpose. The circumstantial evidence overwhelmingly points to it having accidentally escaped the lab there according to Pompeo. Again, it's the cover up, the lies, the communist Chinese propaganda machine, and they're failure to protect the rest of the world that has everyone so mad at them for the Wuh Flu.
Quote: gordonm888The Australian investigative report says:
China knew that this virus was transmitted by human-to human contact in early December.
In December, they banned all domestic internet searches (Chinese version of Google) on words and phrases about the Wuhan virus.
They issued an order that all genetic samples of the virus that were being held in Chinese laboratories must be destroyed. Not just "stop analyzing the samples" -the order was to destroy all genetic samples of the virus.
They arrested and jailed 8 doctors who have been characterized as whistle-blowers -who were trying to tell other citizens and newspapers that they were seeing evidence of a potentially dangerous virus.
Later, they told the Chinese public, via public media, to stop asking questions about the origin of the virus on social media. Reportedly, they made it illegal to discuss the virus on social media.
On January 4, WHO reported that the virus was not spread by human-to-human contact, based on what the Chinese told them. WHO did not refute this report until Jan 20, when they finally announced that it was spread by human-to-human contact. This is a key point, because coronaviruses are by definition animal viruses, and the capability for human-to-human transmission is unusual and would not have been presumed by foreign observers.
During January, they banned all travel out of Wuhan to other points in China -indicating they understood the danger of transmission. However, they still did not alert other nations to the problem and placed no restrictions on travel from Wuhan to Europe, the US and other points outside of China. Travelers from Wuhan, China went to Seattle, California, New York, Milan, etc.
And I AM NOT ADVOCATING TARIFFS OR ANY OTHER SPECIFIC ACTIONS AT THIS TIME, I am reporting the results of an Australian newspaper investigation written by an award-winning journalist. The write-up received 6 pages of coverage in a leading Australian newspaper on Saturday .
How in bloody hell can the very intelligent members of this forum absorb this information and not feel like something wrong has happened? This is not irrelevant.
Of course it's relevant. Unfortunately you'll be called a racist for even posting such info because it's not trending with social media, Twitter, and with what Madonna says. Many people were picked on for not being part of the "in crowd" back in school, so they're terrified of that happening to them as an adult. Consequently they're easily influenced by social media and Chinese propaganda.
This info is the very reason our county freaked out, like other nations did, and locked down, before we even had a hundred deaths. Nations don't do that just because of novel virus. But they do it when intel agencies tell them that the "novel virus" escaped a lab!
https://www.foxnews.com/media/tucker-carlson-beijing-coronavirus-new-chinese-century
Sure it's suspicious to hide information, but leadership doesn't just hide military endeavors, they also hide embarrassing and even dangerous mistakes. Big companies do it all the time. And government does it. Before I would jump to a military conclusion, we should eliminate the more probable that they want to cover up mismanagement.
This is why I wouldn't jump to any biowarfare idea first. Same same with everything else.
My first conclusion, would be the failure to notify outside countries about it, was the Chinese believed they could wrestle it under control secretly without further embarrassment. But in a big clus*** f*** things can go terribly wrong. Which they did.
Personally, the way I imagine Chinese government running, is the local pols, hide their errors from central government, because central government has a harsh reaction for local failure, and that may have actually contributed to the delays and misinformation.
Quote: rxwineThe proper way to approach this is to start eliminating the probable events before assuming the more improbable.
Sure it's suspicious to hide information, but leadership doesn't just hide military endeavors, they also hide embarrassing and even dangerous mistakes. Big companies do it all the time. And government does it. Before I would jump to a military conclusion, we should eliminate the more probable that they want to cover up mismanagement.
This is why I wouldn't jump to any biowarfare idea first. Same same with everything else.
My first conclusion, would be the failure to notify outside countries about it, was the Chinese believed they could wrestle it under control secretly without further embarrassment. But in a big clus*** f*** things can go terribly wrong. Which they did.
Personally, the way I imagine Chinese government running, is the local pols, hide their errors from central government, because central government has a harsh reaction for local failure, and that may have actually contributed to the delays and misinformation.
No, the proper way to approach this would be to listen to Pompeo, since he's already been investigating this along with other nations. And right now, our Intel is saying that overwhelming circumstantial evidence points to a serious lab accident.
Again, why do you think nations shut down so fast! It's kind of a "Duh" don't you think? They just didn't announce that Intel believed that a lab accident had taken place so that the nation wouldn't go into utter panic mode.
By the way, you know that they've had accidents before, right?
Quote: KeyserNo, the proper way to approach this would be to listen to Pompeo, since he's already been investigation this along with other nations. And right now, our Intel is saying that overwhelming circumstantial evidence points to a serious lab accident.
According to current news articles, it's still under investigation not a completed investigation.
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https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-intelligence-agencies-say-coronavirus-originated-in-china-wasnt-man-madeor-genetically-modified-11588260228
