No commission Pai Gow variation - what's the house edge?

Heard about this game through the BARGE listserv.

There's no commission on wins, but when the dealer has a Queen high Pai Gow, it's a push no matter what you've been dealt. Also - the joker is used as an actual wild card and can be used to make pairs, not just as an ace or to complete straights and flushes. Interested in how often dealer is dealt a Queen-high Pai Gow and what the house edge on this game would be.

Interesting side note - it must be less than 2% of the time, because you can make a side bet that the dealer WILL make a queen-high Pai Gow and it pays at 50:1.

One final note that I don’t think has any impact, but it drastically changes the way some hands are played: at this casino, the joker is an actual joker – it can be used for anything. One of the changes I almost missed – if you have a hand like KQ9742 with the joker, the correct play is to put the K9 in front.

Quote: snooptodd

Heard about this game through the BARGE listserv.

There's no commission on wins, but when the dealer has a Queen high Pai Gow, it's a push no matter what you've been dealt. Also - the joker is used as an actual wild card and can be used to make pairs, not just as an ace or to complete straights and flushes. Interested in how often dealer is dealt a Queen-high Pai Gow and what the house edge on this game would be.

Interesting side note - it must be less than 2% of the time, because you can make a side bet that the dealer WILL make a queen-high Pai Gow and it pays at 50:1.

One final note that I don’t think has any impact, but it drastically changes the way some hands are played: at this casino, the joker is an actual joker – it can be used for anything. One of the changes I almost missed – if you have a hand like KQ9742 with the joker, the correct play is to put the K9 in front.

I'm a little confused by the fully wild joker, but I think the game you're describing is EZ Pai Gow Poker. It's inventor is Paigowdan, who is a member of this forum.

Yup....Howdy.

It's EZ pai Gow poker (I originally called it Tao Pai Gow, but my distributor renamed it EZ Pai Gow, because they also distribute EZ Baccarat, a commission-free Baccarat version.)

The game is 100% commission-free 100% of the time, and uses a Dealer's Queen-high push instead of charging a commission. The house edge is essentially the same (within a tenth of a percent), but it is a lot faster without the dealer fumbling for change all the time. Players like it, because if you bet $100, you win $100, not $95.

The game comes in TWO versions - a regular version with the standard joker (straights and flushes) that's in use in Nevada and the Mid-West, and with a completely wild joker version that you mention. That's in use in California casinos (Blue lake, Barona, Pala, etc.), where the wild joker is considered "California-style" Pai Gow Poker in a lot of places.

And yes, you're right, the hand occurs less than 2% of the time. The queen-high dealer's hand occurs once in every 58 hands (~1.7%), so it's really unobstrusive, just enough to replace the commission's edge. If you assume the real edge of the push is 1.5% (because a few players' hands would have pushed anyway, a straight with a 54 top, for instance), and add 0.8% for two-side copies, the aggregate house edge is about 2.3%, the same as if you charged a commission with no push. But you crank out a lot more hands per hour, as you lose about 5-10 hands an hour with all the dealer change-making becuase of the commission.

The bonus bets are essentially the same, using the AQ suited as the "Royal match" instead, and are NOT required to be played to get commission-free. We have some players who bet $500 a hand with no bonus bets, and they win $500 a shot, not $475. On $5 games, the commission is less important, because a 25 cent peice is nothing, but the increased speed of ther game is appreciated, except by those who play Pai Gow only to get the free drinks.

The math reporting for the game was done by Charles Mousseau, (an associate of Mike the Wizard here), and he did a really great job.

Quote: Paigowdan

Players like it, because if you bet $100, you win $100, not $95.

If you assume the real edge of the push is 1.5% (because a few players' hands would have pushed anyway, a straight with a 54 top, for instance),.

Of course, some players will NOT like it when they get KKKQQ/AA and push when the dealer gets Q7642/J9.....especially if they're used to playing regular PGP and don't notice that they're playing a different game...you should only have a player dragged out kicking and screaming by security once every two weeks or so.

Do I read this correctly, that the player pushes against a Queen-high pai gow even if his hand would have lost in regular PGP (like a Jack-high pai gow)? And if so, did you factor that into your calculation of the house edge?

MKL, I've played this game many times, and not once was anyone screaming when the dealer got a Q-high.

Yes, even if you lose, you push against a Q-high

Yeah, most people understand the game they're playing, and I've never seen people get angry about a queen-high Pai Gow.

Actually, I've seen the much the opposite: one guy won 500 bucks because he put $10 on the Queen's Dragon bet. He was ecstatic that the queen high Pai Gow appeared.

Quote: mkl654321

Of course, some players will NOT like it when they get KKKQQ/AA and push when the dealer gets Q7642/J9.....especially if they're used to playing regular PGP and don't notice that they're playing a different game...you should only have a player dragged out kicking and screaming by security once every two weeks or so.

Do I read this correctly, that the player pushes against a Queen-high pai gow even if his hand would have lost in regular PGP (like a Jack-high pai gow)? And if so, did you factor that into your calculation of the house edge?

Yes, once in a while we get a player complain about a Queen-push, but it's usually when he has a hand that just edges the dealer queen-high, like a King-high hand. Players with the hand KKKQQ/AA clean up on the bonus so they're winners anyway. We get more people who are thankful they aren't getting shorted on every single win they eek out via the commission. In general, they much perfer this game; at the Fiesta, where we have the side by side with Emperor's Challenge, and EZ Pai Gow gets much more action and compliments.

The Queen-high push is unilateral - all hands push on the flat bet. hands that would have pushed or lost are factored in mathematically, so the added edge is not 1.7%, but more like 1.5% - which is exactly what the 5% brings in anyway, at 5% commission times 30% players' win frequency.

If a player has a had that would have lost (like a jack-high), they're actually thankful for the dealer's queen-high, which is more common than KKKQQ/AA, so it balances out very well. The game has gotten some great player and casino operators' reviews, so I am very thankful.

One last thing: if the dealer gets less than a queen-high, like a jack-high or less, the dealer just loses and pays up, unless someone has a flush with a 32 top which almost always pushes and pays on the bonus.

[Edit - Dan and I were typing at the same time...]


MKL -


If the player hasn't played before, AND gets a winner against the dealers Queen high BEFORE ever winning a hand, then, and ONLY then, might he be upset.

But if he has had at least one winner, where he didn't have to fumble for quarters, he'll understand, and accept the push with his killer hand.

Please realize that your killer hand example is quite rare. Back it up with getting it as soon as you sit down, and the number of kickers and screamers will be almost zero.


Yes, you read correctly. If the dealer has Queen high, and the player's hand is even worse, it's still a push. And, yeah, PaiGowDan figured that into the calculations.


For the record, I can't wait until this game makes it to the East Coast. I think my wife would like it. She won't even come near a regular Pai Gow Poker table. She calls it "That stupid game with the quarters...."

GREAT work, Paigowdan. One question- If I bank, does the same rule apply? If so, it seems that there will be a huge advantage to banking.

Thanks, SOOPOO!

Many casinos with EZ Pai Gow just say "no banking - go to the poker room."

At the Fiesta Henderson, we allow banking on EZ Pai Gow with the following rules:
1. Banker pays commission up to the nearest full dollar.
2. Non-banking players pay no commission on any of their wins.
3. A banker with a queen-high doesn't push. Note that it pushes on a dealer's queen-high pai gow hand.

We do this to discourage player banking. Banking just bogs the game down, doesn't matter what brand of Pai Gow poker. Banking is a vestige from its poker-room origins, it's the appendix or adnoids of the game: we can definately live without it.

If players say, "but it's not commission-free when you bank", we answer:
1. Yes it is - because YOU can elect to bank or not...and
2. When players play against each other, and not against the house, we have charge a rake like a poker room because we are then operating like a poker room, and not like a casino pit, during player banking.
3. You have to pay commission on the other game when banking anyway, so why bank here?

(Sometimes dealers say, "C'mom now, don't be a dick...." or "no soup for you!....")

This is interesting. It seems like Vegas locals are pretty savvy about the games they play, and fairly sensitive to rule changes and modifications. Case in point: several years ago, the Fiesta Henderson made a rule change that went over like a lead balloon--they said that you could only collect the bonus on the five-card hand that you set in back, NOT the best possible five-card hand out of the seven cards you were dealt. Most players found out about this rule the hard way, as when they played QQQ7732 as trips with a pair in front, and got paid 3-1 on the bonus instead of 5-1, or better yet, when they played Q10642 of spades, Q, 10 as two split pair---and got paid NOTHING on the bonus bet (in fact, losing it), instead of 4-1. Within a week, the PGP tables at FH were completely deserted. One dealer standing there on a Friday afternoon told me he hadn't dealt a hand in four hours.

Anyway, I wonder about the player reaction to this game (EZPGP). Obviously, it was finely calibrated so that the Q-high pai gow dealer push would be very close to the existing house edge on regular PGP commission-based games--but not one in a thousand players would know that. So, two questions arise:

1. Why not make the push be on a King-high pai gow, or on ALL hands Q-high or worse, thereby dramatically increasing the house edge? How would the players know that they were being screwed (and it would seem that the player not knowing that he's being screwed is the ideal opportunity for the house to screw him)?

2. Do the players perceive, even dimly, that nothing has changed insofar as house edge, in the transition from PGP to EZPGP? And how does the increased number of hands per hour affect house revenue (I'm not about to use that stupid and meaningless term, "hold")?

I did consider that, but was told no to it by my distributor, DEQ.

I originally had the level at J-high, with use of a THREE-page house way that plays like a tournament player.
I wanted to reduce the "noticeability" of the Q-level push, but players would complain about strong house play from the house way, AND the dealers would not be able to lern the strategy, and the players would pick up the strategy tricks anyway over time.

The K-high push, as well as Queen-or-less combined is very noticeable, as players like winning on the dealer's jack-high or less! Besides, the added speed of the game makes a little more money, as the same edge but at a faster game rate does very well. But the house edge is not higher, and players are very sharp about this. And we don't wanna screw anyone, as a fairer game gets more action. What really counts is "asses in seats."

Almost all Players like it, but a few old stools look at it with suspicion ("Arrgg!...There's gotta be a trick to it, I tell ya! I can SMELL it, you're trying to ROOK me, arench ya! - yada yada yada." We can't worry about a few dummies.

We teach people with our pitch:
"It's 100% commission-free 100% of the time. Same house edge as regular commission Pai Gow with our queen-high push, and we have the same full payout bonus bets without any requirement to play them in order to get commission-free advantages."

So, players perceive it as esentially the same game, but without the nag of the commission. So far, so very good.

I'm going to be in Las Vegas shortly, and I'd like to try this version of pai gow poker. Is there any place I can look to find a listing of which casinos currently offer it? The DEQ website had a nice tutorial, but no casino listings (which, I guess, is understandable, if the list is constantly changing).

Thanks!

Quote: CapnDave

I'm going to be in Las Vegas shortly, and I'd like to try this version of pai gow poker. Is there any place I can look to find a listing of which casinos currently offer it? The DEQ website had a nice tutorial, but no casino listings (which, I guess, is understandable, if the list is constantly changing).

Thanks!

In the Vegas area: Fiesta Henderson Casino, 777 Lake Mead Parkway. $5 min. table. (I deal there!) Also:

Barona Casino, San Diego ($25 tables with progressive) All their tables are EZ pai Gow
Pala Casino, San Diego
Blue Lake Casino (North of Eureka, CA)
Soboba Casino, CA
Ameristar St. Charles/St. Louis
Ameristar East Chicago, Ill.
Ameristar Kansas City
Ameristar Council Bluffs, Iowa (Sister city of Omaha, Nebraska)

Thanks, Dan! Looks like Fiesta Henderson just got added to my "must visit" list!

Dan- I went to Seneca Niagara (near Buffalo) today and played pai gow with a crew of 'regulars'. They were not travelers (2 of them had never been to Las Vegas) and I mentioned commission free Pai Gow to them, to see their response. Both of them said they would play it in a second. It was their gut impression that q high Pai gow is so uncommon as to more than make up for the commissions. I didn't pay enough attention to see if the dealer got any q highs, until his q high beat my j high. I would have liked the push on that hand.

Soopoo,
thanks for that report! The game is begining to move, but it's a California phenomenon. It takes soooo much time to get the game out into a wide area because of the nature of the business and the approval processes. We should have one large Las Vegas-based group convert to it up in the spring (not Stations).
Kein L. wrote a good description of the game in his Fiesta Henderson report. The Queen-high is rare, about once in every 58 hands, so it's not obstructive at all to the play of the game, and supplies just enough house edge to replace the commission. It is popular -once it gets into a place!
Thanks!