Thread Rating:

rob.waite
rob.waite
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 1
Joined: Mar 26, 2016
March 26th, 2016 at 8:48:16 AM permalink
Hello... couldnt find this anywhere. In casino craps.. the house has a fairly small edge on the pass/dont pass line. Street craps seems to me to center around the shooter taking one of these two bets (pass/dont pass) and at least one other person opposing them. It also seems like bar12 is not observed.

So in street craps.. does someone have an advantage? I would have guessed dont pass has a small advantage and maybe its considered okay because there will be many rounds. If it was somehow even... is it because bar12 is not used?

Bonus question... why is bar12 a thing? Some sites claim this is where the casino gets its edge.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
  • Threads: 327
  • Posts: 9618
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
March 26th, 2016 at 11:02:25 AM permalink
what is 'even' about street craps is that the shooter keeps changing and the shooter has the opportunity each time to bank bets.

there is no darkside betting I wouldn't think. In any case the shooter surely only books bets against himself rightside in any semblance of what goes on normally.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
ThatDonGuy
ThatDonGuy
  • Threads: 118
  • Posts: 6405
Joined: Jun 22, 2011
March 26th, 2016 at 1:05:43 PM permalink
Quote: rob.waite

Bonus question... why is bar12 a thing? Some sites claim this is where the casino gets its edge.


Exactly. Without it, Don't Pass would win whenever Pass loses, so, since Pass loses more than 50% of the time, Don't Pass would win more than 50% of the time.

Somebody way back when probably figured that having Bar 12 would be easier than taking a commission on Don't Pass bets, similar to what is done with banker bets in Baccarat.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
March 26th, 2016 at 3:09:50 PM permalink
The house edge of the pass line bet is 1.4%, so the player's edge on the don't is 1.4% with no bar-12.

Pushing a crap-12 on the come-out gives back 2.8% (1/36) to the house, so it makes both the pass and don't pass 1.4% house-favored.

If you paid one-half on the don't pass, on a come-out crap 12, and if the pass line lost one-half on a come-out 12, then both line bets would be true odds, 0% HE.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
  • Threads: 327
  • Posts: 9618
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
March 27th, 2016 at 5:21:27 AM permalink
Quote: rob.waite

So in street craps.. does someone have an advantage?



It occurs to me that we should acknowledge [someone else in another thread pointed out] that if you decline to shoot the dice you do have an advantage just betting against whoever is shooting all the time.

I have zero actual experience with street craps, but I doubt if anyone would care if you did that. The activity is so harrowing to personal and financial safety that it is a mute point with me, however.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
rushdl
rushdl
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 177
Joined: Jan 15, 2016
March 27th, 2016 at 7:04:56 AM permalink
In street Craps the general caution is that the fader will usually get even odds and you don't want to do that. The greater caution to watch out for is the bad odds offered by the experienced hustlers. This is quite entertaining, and dangerous.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
  • Threads: 327
  • Posts: 9618
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
March 27th, 2016 at 7:30:56 AM permalink
Quote: rushdl

In street Craps the general caution is that the fader will usually get even odds and you don't want to do that.

not sure what you mean

Quote:

The greater caution to watch out for is the bad odds offered by the experienced hustlers. This is quite entertaining, and dangerous.



I have seen it claimed this indeed goes on, but for the point once established
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
rushdl
rushdl
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 177
Joined: Jan 15, 2016
March 27th, 2016 at 10:54:17 AM permalink
Playing where you the shooter (for), and a fader (against) placing even money against each other, not with a bank. And in the rest of the crowd, they will also pair up a "do and a dont better" for even money or whatever odds they agree upon for that bet.
Another bet to watch out for in Street or lets say Army craps is the 2-roll or 3-roll bet.
Sam Grafstein was big on these recommendations in his book. If this is your line of questioning I totally recommend "The Dice Doctor".
petroglyph
petroglyph
  • Threads: 19
  • Posts: 3360
Joined: Jan 3, 2013
March 27th, 2016 at 11:19:45 AM permalink
Quote: rushdlSam Grafstein was big on these recommendations in his book. [/q

I thought Grafstein was always a darkside player on bank craps?

mustangsally
mustangsally
  • Threads: 25
  • Posts: 2463
Joined: Mar 29, 2011
March 27th, 2016 at 1:34:23 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Somebody way back when probably figured that having Bar 12 would be easier than taking a commission on Don't Pass bets, similar to what is done with banker bets in Baccarat.

John Scarne gives that credit (somebody)
to his friend John H. Winn in Scarne on Dice.

also calls him "the father of Modern Craps."

from Scarne,
early on the don't pass required a 5% vig, but that turned out to be too high
then the Ace-Deuce was barred and in the book (1974)
Scarne says some still use it
I never seen that one
I Heart Vi Hart
mustangsally
mustangsally
  • Threads: 25
  • Posts: 2463
Joined: Mar 29, 2011
March 27th, 2016 at 1:42:13 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

If

you paid one-half on the don't pass,
on a come-out crap 12,

and if

the pass line lost one-half on a come-out 12,

then

both line bets would be true odds, 0% HE.

that is silly
this was gone over before this year started.
member Ahigh said the same thing.
no link provided
<<<<>>>>
the player would still enjoy a 1/3960 (0.5/1980)
edge over the house on the don't pass (dcome)
while
the pass line (come) would pay the cost of 1/3960 (0.5/1980)
<<>>
the pass line could easily be made fair by paying out $251 for every $244 won
flat bet of course

the dpass, I know no yet
lots of candy bunnies to eat before dinner and dancing too
Sally
I Heart Vi Hart
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
  • Threads: 37
  • Posts: 3616
Joined: May 22, 2013
March 27th, 2016 at 2:42:20 PM permalink
Dancing video in front of chalkboard while you 'show' the math would be cool.
I'd think it was cool anyway..
Just 2F
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
  • Threads: 327
  • Posts: 9618
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
March 27th, 2016 at 2:58:26 PM permalink
Quote: mustangsally

that is silly
this was gone over before this year started.
member Ahigh said the same thing.
no link provided
<<<<>>>>
the player would still enjoy a 1/3960 (0.5/1980)
edge over the house on the don't pass (dcome)
while
the pass line (come) would pay the cost of 1/3960 (0.5/1980)
<<>>
the pass line could easily be made fair by paying out $251 for every $244 won
flat bet of course

the dpass, I know no yet
lots of candy bunnies to eat before dinner and dancing too
Sally



well, I was wondering, it's a matter of x/495, which to my untrained ears sounds hard to make equal
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
March 27th, 2016 at 7:43:15 PM permalink
Quote: mustangsally

that is silly
this was gone over before this year started.
member Ahigh said the same thing.
no link provided
<<<<>>>>
the player would still enjoy a 1/3960 (0.5/1980)
edge over the house on the don't pass (dcome)
while
the pass line (come) would pay the cost of 1/3960 (0.5/1980)
<<>>
the pass line could easily be made fair by paying out $251 for every $244 won
flat bet of course

the dpass, I know no yet
lots of candy bunnies to eat before dinner and dancing too
Sally



No, half-pay/half-loss on a come-out 12 is a reasonable way to get a de facto even game.
Yes, you're technically right, but 1/3960 is 0.00025 of a betting unit, while keeping the flat bet even money with a simple half-pay / half-loss on a come-out 12. This would come out to a penny on each $40 bet on the line, either way. I don't see how 1/3960 of a unit from true odds is an advantage; I'd say it is as good as true odds, and easy to play and deal.
Now, paying $251 for each $244 is not fair to the players in terms of a minimum bet, or to the crap dealers, who'd have to pay $251 for each $244.

I looked at the issue as a game designer: easy to deal and calculate on the game this way.
Last edited by: Paigowdan on Mar 27, 2016
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
  • Jump to: