If there were no tips, what would be a fair LV dealer wage?

In some cultures, tipping is not expected. If this were the case in Las Vegas, I presume the market would require a higher wage to compensate. What would be a fair average wage for a Las Vegas dealer if they could not accept tips?

Why is minimum wage not a choice ?

Poorly designed poll. The per hour rates and the per year rates overlap. For exanple... $25/hr is around $50k per year.

And surely benefits are very very important to attract quality employees.

Quote: SOOPOO

Poorly designed poll. The per hour rates and the per year rates overlap. For exanple... $25/hr is around $50k per year.

I realize there would be overlap, but part time workers and overtime eligibility are situations that seem best covered by the hourly choices.

There is no one size fits all answer. Is the waitress at Bill's coffee shop worth the same as the waitress at one of the high end restaurants? They are both waitresses. Is the driver of the shuttle from gold coast to the strip worth the same as one of the limo drivers? They are both drivers transporting patrons. And of course a dealer at longhorn dealing a $3 game is not worth the same as a dealer at Mirage.

Ideally, the dealer's wages should be based on his value to the casino. I wouldn't want to see it based on the money that the table wins, as then the dealer would actually have an incentive to cheat. A percentage of the total action of the table would be ideal. That way a friendly dealer encouraging folks to play would make out better than a grumpy dealer who can't crack a smile. A dealer who dealt quickly would benefit as well. Unfortunately the only way to do this would be game were money is wagered electronically, but with a live dealer. (Red Rock had such a game as did Parx in Pa)

Quote: kewlj

There is no one size fits all answer. Is the waitress at Bill's coffee shop worth the same as the waitress at one of the high end restaurants? They are both waitresses. Is the driver of the shuttle from gold coast to the strip worth the same as one of the limo drivers? They are both drivers transporting patrons. And of course a dealer at longhorn dealing a $3 game is not worth the same as a dealer at Mirage.

Ideally, the dealer's wages should be based on his value to the casino. I wouldn't want to see it based on the money that the table wins, as then the dealer would actually have an incentive to cheat. A percentage of the total action of the table would be ideal. That way a friendly dealer encouraging folks to play would make out better than a grumpy dealer who can't crack a smile. A dealer who dealt quickly would benefit as well. Unfortunately the only way to do this would be game were money is wagered electronically, but with a live dealer. (Red Rock had such a game as did Parx in Pa)

The question is asking for an average, which would include the strip, but all other joint in "Las Vegas" too. If tips were not part of the equation, would dealers want to work on the Strip?

I don't think you could base the wage on the drop since no one would work the graveyard shift. Perhaps incentive bonuses could be built in based on positive customer feedback...

The Bureau of Labor Statistics reported in May 2011, that the average (mean) Nevada dealer's wage was $8.35 / hour and $17,370 annually. Note that the Wynn dealers who sued to stop the tip pool sharing by supervisor's in 2006, were reporting $100,000 annual incomes (including tips) before their tips were raided.

50-70K yearly seems fair to me. But again, depending on the location. I think it should depend on the types of games and players the dealers are dealing. I've never been to Vegas, so I don't know, but if there's special high roller rooms with consistent action, like players playing 10K a hand, that dealer should be paid more to ensure mistakes aren't made. This type of dealer would take at least a few years to get to that level, and should go through more scrutiny compared to a $5 BJ dealer.

Also, more games should warrant more pay. This is the case where I work, but we're talking a few extra cents an hour.

I voted $20-30 mainly because... I don't want dealers who are making minimum wage. I have a somewhat complicated and arbitrary pressing regimen (I bring the 6 & 8 up together, sometimes mix in a 5 or 9) and that's something that a new dealer just can't wrap his head around. A good dealer is worth his weight in gold and I'm happy to fund it.

If all the casinos illegally colluded to pay dealers minimum wage after tips, I guarantee you that the quality of table games would decline horribly in a couple of years.

Being a dealer requires no education, just a little training.
Its a job with a high burnout rate, no matter what Dan
says. Dealers are easily replacable. They have no real job
security. Given all that, how could they demand high
wages and get them.

As I said before, Steve Wynn says if a dealer has a peoblem
in any of my casinos, I have a stack of applications on my
desk three feet high of people wanting to take their place
tomorrow.

The casino would have to pay what the traffic would bear to get the type of customers and keep them happy. Some casinos would pay semi skilled labor, others might pay higher to get more cheerful dealers willing to put up with constant surveillance and precise instructions. With all the drunks, fights, standing for an entire shift, ... most casinos could get away with paying low wages but the more sensible casinos would pay extra to get workers who were alert and who were willing to stay alert.

Quote: FleaStiff

most casinos could get away with paying low wages but the more sensible casinos would pay extra to get workers who were alert and who were willing to stay alert.

I like new dealers the best because they still
think dealing is a good job and it shows in
their attitude. Then its breaktime and here's
Agnes Sourpuss to fill in and everybody
starts complaining..

I voted $20 an hour. It is a good living wage here in Las Vegas.

I Think somewhat around $20 an hour is fair,but crap dealers should be paid more than Blackjack dealers.

Practically anyone is capable of dealing. You need 3rd grade math skills and one arm/hand.

Why they would make more than $15k p/year is beyond comprehension.

Most dealers would be wise to quit and get a "real job" at McDonalds.

Quote: MakingBook

Practically anyone is capable of dealing. You need 3rd grade math skills and at least one arm/hand.

Why they would make more than $15k p/year is beyond comprehension.

Most dealers would be wise to quit and get a "real job" at McDonalds.

One of the ruder posts I've seen. There are many jobs that 'anyone is capable' of doing. It may be beyond your comprehension why they make more than 15k per year, but I can't help with your weak comprehension skills. The question of what a fair wage is for any job in a free market system like we live in will come down to supply and demand. Dealers are relatively lowly paid because there is an excess of supply to demand. My guess is if dealers were paid $10 an hour with no tips demand would exceed supply, and wages would have to creep up.
Denigrating someone else's job does not make your personal criminal endeavor any more noble.

Quote: SOOPOO

One of the ruder posts I've seen. There are many jobs that 'anyone is capable' of doing. It may be beyond your comprehension why they make more than 15k per year, but I can't help with your weak comprehension skills. The question of what a fair wage is for any job in a free market system like we live in will come down to supply and demand. Dealers are relatively lowly paid because there is an excess of supply to demand. My guess is if dealers were paid $10 an hour with no tips demand would exceed supply, and wages would have to creep up.
Denigrating someone else's job does not make your personal criminal endeavor any more noble.

You call it rude. I call it factual. I'm not denigrating anyone.

Seriously, what "skills" are required to be a dealer? How many people CANNOT be a dealer?

Pay is highly correlated with the number of people capable of performing the job.
You are a doctor. How many people are presently qualified to do what you do?
It's a small number. That's why you are highly paid. (and you deserve it)

My profession may be an exception? All you need is a bankroll and a willingness to assume some risk.

Quote: SOOPOO

One of the ruder posts I've seen.
...
Denigrating someone else's job does not make your personal criminal endeavor any more noble.

I agree completely.

Quote: MakingBook

Seriously, what "skills" are required to be a dealer? How many people CANNOT be a dealer?

From my dealer school class half didn't make it. The last internal school that was run where I work half didn't make it.

So, uh... about 50% can't seem to be a dealer. After that dealing with dirtbags causes additional attrition. So, in the end, somewhat less than 50%.

What keeps some people from not being able to get through dealer school? Are that many people not good enough at math?

I don't think I could ever deal with all the shit they have to on a daily basis.

Quote: ahiromu

What keeps some people from not being able to get through dealer school? Are that many people not good enough at math?

I don't think math is the main reason, though I'm sure it is in some cases. I don't think speed is a big factor either, though if you're super slow that does count against you. We were timed on how long it took to get through a shoe with 7 players on BJ and some were cut because they were too slow. Some couldn't adhere to the procedures. And of course regardless of completing the school you have to audition and they did do things to mess with us at the audition, I'm guessing to see how well we could think on our feet, deal with stress, etc.

It would probably be more informative to get the answer(s) from someone that has been an instructor. My answer is subjective and based on my impressions at the time, and incomplete information as to what criteria was being used to judge the students.

Quote: ahiromu

I don't think I could ever deal with all the shit they have to on a daily basis.

To me, that's harder than dealing the games. Listening to someone bitch and moan for hours can get really old. Then there's the cheats and shot takers. And knowing you're being watched by a bunch of cameras. I don't think any customer service job is easy, but at least in most of the others the grouchy customer is dealt with and they leave. When dealing you don't know when Mr. Crankypants is going to call it a day and move on. I've dealt to the same miserable player for an entire 10 hour shift (minus breaks of course).

Quote: MakingBook

You call it rude. I call it factual. I'm not denigrating anyone.

Seriously, what "skills" are required to be a dealer? How many people CANNOT be a dealer?

Pay is highly correlated with the number of people capable of performing the job.
You are a doctor. How many people are presently qualified to do what you do?
It's a small number. That's why you are highly paid. (and you deserve it)

My profession may be an exception? All you need is a bankroll and a willingness to assume some risk.

Have you ever been a dealer? I'm guessing no. Because while it may look really easy, it's not. By the 6th or 7th hour of blackjack you'll start to get tired. Remember, if you play, you only need to pay attention to your hand. But the dealer must pay attention to EVERY hand, EVERY time. Where I work, there's a lot of dealers that are OK. There are other dealers that are better than me at blackjack, because I don't care about blackjack. There are other dealers that I feel I'm much better than when it comes to craps, because they don't have that indefinable quality that makes a person a good craps dealer.

Do you think you could cut cheques quickly like other dealers, and cut them CORRECTLY. Probably not. You may think you can, but you might not be as quick as you think, or you don't do it the correct way.

After being in the business for over two years, I KNOW that not any idiot can do the job well. Yes any idiot off the street can GET the job, but they won't be good necessarily. They're worth AT LEAST $15/hr.

Quote: ahiromu

What keeps some people from not being able to get through dealer school? Are that many people not good enough at math?

I don't think I could ever deal with all the shit they have to on a daily basis.

It's not math. Where I work, I'm maybe at the 50th percentile of craps dealers when it comes to prop bets. Because I don't get the math? NO, because I have a math degree. It's because I'm not that good at really quick simple arithmetic calculations.

I think what gets people is the actual physical skill in dealing and handling cheques and the constant change in what they need to be concentrating on. Some just can't seem to change their attention from one thing to the other really quickly.

I've heard that a good dealer is expected to be:
1. An utterly flawlessly gracious host to both sober and inebriated ingrates, steamers, and obnixious and foul-mouthed individuals, cheaters, and shot-takers, just as he is to Saints;
2. A fast and nearly perfect arithmetic (not theoretical) mathematician;
3. totally reliable in terms of never being late or absent despite routine overnight shifts;
4. having the hands of a great musician in terms of handling chips, cards, and dice for hours at end;
5. an engaging raconteur;
6. having feet and a back that are totally impervious to pain;
7. immune and completely forgiving of episodic outbursts of labor-relation-challenged menial supervisors;
etc....
all for $7.50 a hour plus some sh]tty tips.

That most people expect that they are somehow great treats to deal with or to deal to is amazing.

If the average gambler - stone cold sober, tipsy, or what have you - videotaped himself sitting at a table for two hours and forty minutes, and then watched it, he would get an idea of what he looks like, and what he is like to deal with. Would he or anyone else pay to see him or be with him without being paid a serious stipend? Would you pay to see this movie?? Would you guys honestly say, "Well, shoot, Johnny Carson didn't have crap on me!" Then add five more of him or you, add some more drinks, some bad-beat loses, and see now if it is now a picnic or some sort of treat to babysit, day in and day out.

Done it for six years plus, having learned enough to become a successful game designer, and smart enough to be thankful for it all. I took home the gaming education, and put it to use, - and discarded all the baggage, the shot-takers, and all that jazz.

The only thing I will say is that being a public high school teacher in the ghetto is slightly worse, because the pay is the same, along with taking home work, and the maturity level of the clientele is about the same. It is the difference between witnessing the future fall of the Roman empire, and the present fall of the Roman Empire, so to speak. Might as well have fun, make enough to pay the bills, not take any worries home, and learn enough about game design from inside the casino pit to nail down a few good new game deasigns, I figure.

If you can put a price on what it is really like to babysit you, then you can put a price on what a dealer should earn. If you spend enough time at the tables, the quiet opinions of your presence might actually be similar to that of your ex-wives. I'm sure you would still say it is worth only two dollars and hour, and many who have never been dealers will still think so.

Minimum wage, of course. Like any other simple, unskilled, routine, non-physical labor.

Well we know who voted for $100k, it wasn't registered two hours ago!

Quote: weaselman

Minimum wage, of course. Like any other simple, unskilled, routine, non-physical labor.

It's skilled and hard: everything from dealing to shot-takers, irritable floormen, to calculating and carrying out thousands of transactions per hour flawlessy under this environment.

It's skilled, because 95% of the gambling board cannot do this job and has not done this job,
and the excuse of "well, we simply don't wish to - and while wishing to pass judgement on those who do and have done this job...." simply translates to us:
1. We haven't this job, and;
2. We couldn't do this job, and;
3. so we cannot speak from experience, aside from grips and accusations as to what this job really entails.

Simple, it is not. Anything and everything has happened on tables, from a robber (who was a State Judge's son) ridding in on a motor-cycle to the Bellagio and sticking up a crap table at gun-point, to contested losses in the millions, and labor-relations cases stemming from table activity.

Routine, it is not, - and not just on the above situations. Hours change at a moment's notice, you often don't even know what day or shift you are working until you call in to the pit.

The physical labor requiries standing for 30 hours a week out of a forty hour week, and only outdoors work approaches the standing, walking, and performing in public. For get about the attitudes from the people who have never done this, and never will.

Quote: DeMango

Well we know who voted for $100k, it wasn't registered two hours ago!

No, I actually voted for $20 to $30 an hour, based on what a veterinarian makes. Also what a school teacher should make. And also a tough skilled job.

Edit: I have got to say, on this "vote panel," - we here are pricing what we are worthy to be serviced at. If you are pricing your attention to be worth $9 dollars an hour, I might disagree.

Since the poll has duplication as well as redundancy, I abstained from voting.

It's interesting to see that Dan says he voted for $20-$30 because, frankly, if the poll were not screwed up, I would have voted for a higher value.

I think if you're going to try to come up with a fair salary for dealers in your mythical, no tipping casino, the first thing you should do is check the salaries of dealers in Europe, where tipping is rare.

Truth is, I didn't know dealers were paid such low wages until I joined this forum last year. Makes me even more happy to tip. It's not a job I would be particularly good at. You have to deal with assholes daily and do so in such a way that they want to keep coming back to that casino and play on a regular basis. I voted 20-30 an hour because in my opinion everybody should be paid a wage where they can live somewhat comfortably. Standing on your feet all day, dealing with customers who aren't always pleasant, and doing that with a smile is not something everyone can do. No matter what some believe, that's a skill.

But I'm curious, don't casinos provide even minimum benefits? Health insurance, if nothing else?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Since the poll has duplication as well as redundancy, I abstained from voting.

It's interesting to see that Dan says he voted for $20-$30 because, frankly, if the poll were not screwed up, I would have voted for a higher value.

I think if you're going to try to come up with a fair salary for dealers in your mythical, no tipping casino, the first thing you should do is check the salaries of dealers in Europe, where tipping is rare.

I agree with this basically, and it is in that $25 range. Europeans are no easy clientele to deal with, as are neither Africans or Asians - or any human or animal - who demands attention and patronage, and who thinks he doesn't smell, speaking figuratively (hence the veterinarian refernce). Simply put, quite often when a person bets his rent money or car payment after a few too many, it is both a common situation, and a rough situation. We are routinely in countless no-win situations that stink.

As a ex-high school teacher, who dealt with emotional teenagers with a ton of work to bring home, I sought more like $40-$50 an hour.

If I were a doctor or lawyer or gaming mathematician, dealing with very personal histrionics and life changing situations, I'd seek $100+.

As a casino dealer generally dealing with medicated mammals sweating their situation, I simply seek what a veterinarian makes.

It makes sense to me.

Quote: texasplumr

Truth is, I didn't know dealers were paid such low wages until I joined this forum last year. Makes me even more happy to tip. It's not a job I would be particularly good at. You have to deal with assholes daily and do so in such a way that they want to keep coming back to that casino and play on a regular basis. I voted 20-30 an hour because in my opinion everybody should be paid a wage where they can live somewhat comfortably. Standing on your feet all day, dealing with customers who aren't always pleasant, and doing that with a smile is not something everyone can do. No matter what some believe, that's a skill.

But I'm curious, don't casinos provide even minimum benefits? Health insurance, if nothing else?

For permanent employees (fulltime dealers, floormen, etc.), yes, the 401(k) benefits and health insurance are supplied and are absolutely crucial for maintaining a dedicated and reliable workforce. And it makes a huge difference in the value of the job, especially if the management treats us at least or better than the players, which also counts a for lot.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Typical American greed. And people wonder why jobs and work go overseas. Cheap labor.

Nobody wonders why jobs go overseas.
Americans need to be PAID to deal with Americans; - overseas, they don't have to.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I will say that depending on the skill, speed, number and types of games the dealer can work, $15-$30 an hour.

Which is more than $9 an hour, and in the $25 range.
Dealing with sweating and medicated mammals at our table = $25 an hour.
Dealing with this from overseas will of course be much less.

We always cost a little bit more than we our think servicing should be priced.

Quote: Paigowdan

It's skilled and hard:

I am sure, everyone can say that about their job. I only meant "easy" and "unskilled" in the nomenclature sense.
"Skilled" in this sense would be something, requiring a degree in some sort of a discipline.
"Hard" would be either something physically challenging or otherwise demanding some kind of an ability to be developed better than "average" to be able to do the job.

Quote:

everything from dealing to shot-takers, irritable floormen, to calculating and carrying out thousands of transactions per hour flawlessy under this environment.

With all due respect, any Dunkin Donuts worker, or a gas station attendant boasts these ability.

Quote:

It's skilled, because 95% of the gambling board cannot do this job and has not done this job,

So what? I have never operated a commercial dishwasher nor do I know how to do it, does it make that a skilled job too?

Quote:

and the excuse of "well, we simply don't wish to - and while wishing to pass judgement on those who do and have done this job...."

It is not an excuse. You (probably) have not done any secretarial work. Would you say you are unable to do it, or use an excuse that you don't want to? I could mow loans for a leaving easily, but don't want to, because I like my current job better. People tend to stick to their occupation. Even if they change it sometimes, there are a lot more jobs they have not tried than those that they have. It does not mean they are not able to do (most of them), just that they have had no heed or desire to do them so far.
I do, BTW, toy with an idea sometimes of going to deal part time after I retire from my day job, more as a hobby, and a way to fill (some of) my days.

And it's not a judgment. Just because somebody is working unskilled job does not make him inferior in any way. Don't be so insecure.

Quote:

Simple, it is not. Anything and everything has happened on tables, from a robber (who was a State Judge's son) ridding in on a motor-cycle to the Bellagio and sticking up a crap table at gun-point, to contested losses in the millions, and labor-relations cases stemming from table activity.

You should listen to the stories my wife has to tell from the days she was working in a large bank as a teller.

Quote:

Routine, it is not, - and not just on the above situations. Hours change at a moment's notice, you often don't even know what day or shift you are working until you call in to the pit.

Uh. You should talk to the girl I hire to babysit my kids :)

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Quote: weaselman

I am sure, everyone can say that about their job. I only meant "easy" and "unskilled" in the nomenclature sense.
"Skilled" in this sense would be something, requiring a degree in some sort of a discipline.
"Hard" would be either something physically challenging or otherwise demanding some kind of an ability to be developed better than "average" to be able to do the job.


With all due respect, any Dunkin Donuts worker, or a gas station attendant boasts these ability.

No, not all all. From dealing Blackjack, Pai Gow Poker, and especially dice, these are highly skilled casinos services that we quickly bounce the failures out towards Dunkin' Donus, 7-11, Speedy Mart, Wal-Mart, gas stations, etc.

Quote: weaselman

So what? I have never operated a commercial dishwasher nor do I know how to do it, does it make that a skilled job too?

It may indeed, and may make $30 an hour for all you know in some places, such as MGM Resorts, Las Vegas Sands, and the like. My wife worked in Boyd Gaming's Housekeeping department, and there were skilled jobs there that paid $6oK a year, forget about the Wynn. Easy for you to say. You've also never dealt in a casino, run an elite repair shop, or the like, for that matter, I'm willing to bet. Spend six months dealing in a break-in house, then tell us.

Quote: weaselman

It is not an excuse. You (probably) have not done any secretarial work.

Yes I have. I did so for an engineering firm in New York while in college, and before joining the U.S. Army [U.S. Army Field Artillery School, which is some real grunt], to finish a degree in Accounting and Computer Science, where I worked as a system programmer for 20 years, before retiring to my casino retirement career, where I became a successful game designer, BTW.

Quote: weaselman

Would you say you are unable to do it, or use an excuse that you don't want to?

Now, because I have done it in my life, along with a ton of other jobs, and I will in no uncertain terms tell you that the toughest and sometimes the nastiest job is being a high school math teacher in a ghetto high school; my secretarial/guy friday work was nothing in comparison to that.

Quote: weaselman

I could mow loans for a leaving easily, but don't want to, because I like my current job better.

No you can't. You KNOW you could not, nor could you make any sort of living at it all, and are using this as a rhetorical argument.

Quote: weaselman

People tend to stick to their occupation.

Some do, some don't. Some grow and rise into other higher careers, other fail into lower careers. The days to the 45-years in the same job hasn't existed in the United States on a large scale since the 1960's and we know it. Not even in Japanese society of the "Salaryman" does that exist anymore.

Quote: weaselman

Even if they change it sometimes, there are a lot more jobs they have not tried than those that they have.

So many women, so little time kind of thing over here, sounds like.....

Quote: weaselman

It does not mean they are not able to do (most of them), just that they have had no heed or desire to do them so far.

Maybe so, but it helps to speak of experience.

Quote: weaselman

I do, BTW, toy with an idea sometimes of going to deal part time after I retire from my day job, more as a hobby, and a way to fill (some of) my days.

Yes! By all means try to do so. It is both an eye-opener, and rewarding at times, and shattering at other times, and will give quite a pulse on things! Many here can show you the ropes to handle it with aplomb.

Quote: weaselman

And it's not a judgment. Just because somebody is working unskilled job does not make him inferior in any way. Don't be so insecure.

I'm not insecure - I'm finally relatively secure now. I've been there, done that, have no disrespect for unskilled jobs or skilled or professional jobs or any sort. It's all a part of a life's experience, but I am saying some jobs are skilled and difficult, and require special talents and patience. I have both a University degree and honorable military experience,
....and I am saying "session-type'" people-to-people jobs are among the toughest: school teacher, casino dealer, doctor, Legal Aid lawyer, hospital nurse, social worker, etc. A 7-11 clerk see you for three minutes.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Go get a job at Ford and when you get laid off because your job goes to China you'll change your mind.

Actually I pretty much did so. I was computer executive at a New York private college running mainframe computers who was outsourced seven years ago at 45 years of age. I sold my New York Condo and spent my severance on dealers school, relocating to las Vegas, and getting re-employed here - instead of crying about "there's no job, it's SOOO tough" - or complaining about China.
By the way, here in las Vegas, after having re-made it, so to speak - I have for the past several years been buying new Ford motorcars from Gaudin Ford of Las Vegas, including a 2011 Ford Focus my wife took over, and ordered a 2013 Ford Fusion. Now am I pissed about Globalization? A little.

But what am I going to do? - I am trading in a Hyundai (previously bought new) - to buy that "American-nameplate Ford" here in Las Vegas from a retired Las Vegas gaming executive. What do you want me to do? The Ford salesman I bought it from was a former Boyd Gaming V.P. now working a retirement career as a Ford salesman in Las Vegas. This is as American as it gets now. I'm working as a dealer here, and just now getting some game designs really out, almost all in the U.S., and spending it all on American nameplates and living here.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Americans could do ANY job for less.

That is, if get get out of the basement den of ther parent's house, put down the Coor's light, turn off the game, and get out there to go to school or work or something like that.

Quote: Ibeatyources

They just don't want to.

Bingo. And it's their fault, if to blame.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

An office visit to my doctor is $70 without insurance. You have to be nuts to think a consultaion and a quick exam is worth that no matter how educated he is.

You wouldn't say that if you were the receptionist or doctor.

Quote: Paigowdan

No, not all all. From dealing Blackjack, Pai Gow Poker, and especially dice, these are highly skilled casinos services that we quickly bounce the failures out towards Dunkin' Donus, 7-11, Speedy Mart, Wal-Mart, gas stations, etc.

The guy that owns the gas station near my house, talks the same way about letting the guys that don't do well working for him, go work as a dealer :)
I am sure, some Dunking Donuts workers are worse than some casino dealers. That's not the point though.
The point is that it did not occur to you to compare the fellow dealers to rocket scientists.

Quote:

It may indeed, and may make $30 an hour for all you know in some places, such as MGM Resorts, Las Vegas Sands, and the like.

Certainly, in "some places". I know a guy who pays $50 per hour to his maid. There is a lot of insane behaviour among people who don't know what to do with their money.
I have a few interns that used to wash dishes when they were in high school. No, they did not make $30 in an hour.
It was about that much for a day.

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Yes I have.

Ok. How about a bowling alley attendant's work then? Have you done that? Because I can keep comiong up with the suggestions ... until you get the point.

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where I became a successful game designer, BTW.

You have an impressive resume. Should do something about your insecurity though ...
(And don't say you are not insecure. Listing your career accomplishments here speaks way louder than words :)).

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No you can't. You KNOW you could not, nor could you make any sort of living at it all, and are using this as a rhetorical argument.

Sure I can. What makes you think that? I have done it (and many other things) before.

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Some do, some don't.

Right, but even those, that do not, do not have any hope (or desire) to have tried everything they can possibly do.

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I'm not insecure - I'm finally relatively secure now.

I don't mean financial security. I am talking about psychology. The way you fill the need to prove you are "better" than many others (like those "unskilled" individuals) all the time. Nobody is attacking you. There is no need to be defensive.

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....and I am saying "session-type'" people-to-people jobs are among the toughest: school teacher, casino dealer, doctor, Legal Aid lawyer, hospital nurse, social worker, etc. A 7-11 clerk see you for three minutes.

Interestingly, my wife, who used to be a teller, a customer account manager, and then a teacher, holds an opinion, that is exactly opposite to yours. The main reason she quit her teller job to go into customer relations was that she wanted a longer and a closer relationship with a customer. She found exhausting exactly the part of the 7-11 clerk's job, that you think makes it easy.

About skills, ponder these two jokes:

1) A large factory comes to a standstill. The machines wont' work, and no one knows why. After hours spent diagnosing the problem to a stuck valve somweher, but he doens't know exactly which one or how to fix it. So he calls a plumber. The plumber shows up and goes looking through some pipes and valves. After a few minutes of thought, he takes out a small hammer and lightly taps a pipe. At once the machines all roar back to life.

"That will be one thousand dollars." The plumber tells the engineer.

"What? A thousand dollars for tapping a pipe?"

"For tapping a pipe there's no charge. For knwoing where to tap the pipe and fix your problem, the charge is one grand."

2) A wealthy heiress goes to ger stylist and asks him to come up with a unique hairstyle for a very important event. the stylist takes out a ribbon, and proceeds to weave it into the woman's hair, producing a hairstyle that's unique and makes the client look prettier and younger. he charges her $200.

"What? Two hundred dollars for a lousy ribbon?"

So the stylist removes the ribbon, leaving the woman with a frumpy do, and hands it to her saying "The ribbon, madame, you can have for free."

Quote: weaselman

The point is that it did not occur to you to compare the fellow dealers to rocket scientists.

What?? Are you kidding?? Many of us are almost as dumb and as low-life as some players....Sheesh, we do do our jobs though, and try to look out. I certainly don't recall saying that any of us were Einsteins, though I may have implied many of us are not; I just listed what was expected of us from you guys. I certainly did not compare the typical gambling player to any sort of rocket scientist, I will say that.

Quote: weaselman

Ok. How about a bowling alley attendant's work then? Have you done that? Because I can keep comiong up with the suggestions ... until you get the point.

Weaselman, as a matter of fact I was a pin-setter in a bowling alley in the Bronx, New York, in 1979, ("Fieldston Lanes") - at 240th Street and Broadway in the Riverdale/Kinsgbridge section of the Bronx. Also had a pool hall. Where did you think I gambled, and met the bookies?? Jeez, we used to go to Yonkers raceway up the major Deegan expressway...

Quote: weaselman

You have an impressive resume. Should do something about your insecurity though ...

What insecurity? What impressive resume?? Answering questions on a gamblers' forum I feel comfortable with?....Impressive?? A B.S. degree?? Worked as a computer programmer and a teacher? Yeah, me and millions of other Americans...maybe impressive here at this board, I dunno....

Quote: weaselman

I don't mean financial security. I am talking about psychology. The way you fill the need to prove you are "better" than many others (like those "unskilled" individuals) all the time. Nobody is attacking you. There is no need to be defensive.

I'm not better than anyone else, and never had I at any time said I was.
I said:
1. I'm making a damn good living in the gaming business, and;
2. I know what the hell I'm talking about.
As a matter of fact, I think one of the reasons why I'm doing so well is because I consider myself a gambling degenerate or what have you, I'm sharp in this business, and I know this business, though I have achieved some education and work history accomlishments in the data processing industry in a previous life, along with some other odds jobs as an old man. I come off as "better" because I know the material very well, and I am strong with arguments.

While I don't think I'm better than anyone else, especially in this business (and I'd have to be freakin' nuts to think I'm better than a life-saving doctor or lawyer or something like that being in this business) - I will say this to you fellow gamblers:
1. I consider myself to be way less cheap than the average gambler in treating/tipping gaming industry workers, - and I do say this from the opinions I've seen expressed here at this board, and;
2. I consider myself to be more respectful and considerate in the treatment of gaming industry workers, being one myself, and knowing what it's like.
3. And I know this business, and a couple of others, too.

If you're saying that I'm painting myself as a Saint or something, I did nothing as the sort.

I'm in the gaming business, I know this business, I am doing well n this business, and I express my opinions on this business here on this board.


..

I just love how people who have never done a job can tell you how easy it is. Nareed's example of the plumber is absolutely spot on. Of course, I'm a plumber. But I can't tell you how many times I ran into just that type of scenario. Funny though, it was usually from a doctor or lawyer or somebody who had much more education than me. Never once ran into this situation from ordinary blue collar folks or especially people who are really poor. They always seemed to appreciate being able to call someone who did actually know how to fix their problem.

I appreciate friendly, competent and attentive dealers. I have no problem raising their pay scale.

$12 - $20 with benefits seems quite reasonable. I think the pay should be around bank teller / waiter, and that's pretty much where the $12-$20 range fits in.

Quote: texasplumr

I have no problem raising their pay scale.

Whenever you give a raise, you must find the money somewhere. Lower corporate profits? I believe Caesars lost like a billion or so last year. Lower the pit bosses salaries? I don't think they feel they are overpaid. Make games with higher house edges? I don't think the customers would be happy. Dealers make what the market will bear, no more, no less.

Quote: Paigowdan

What?? Are you kidding?? Many of us are almost as dumb and as low-life as some players....

Dumb? What does that have to do with anything? I am talking about comparing level of skill required to do the job.

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Weaselman, as a matter of fact I was a pin-setter in a bowling alley

Ok. Let's keep going. A train conductor?

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Where did you think I gambled, and met the bookies??

Believe it or not, I did not think about it at all :)

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Yeah, me and millions of other Americans...maybe impressive here at this board, I dunno....

Why did you bring it up then? Nobody was asking where you worked before you were a dealer, or what else you have learned to do (design games) while you were one. Or how good a living you make being one. If you don't think it is impressive, and it certainly is not relevant, why did you bring it up at all?

Quote:

I'm not better than anyone else

Didn't you say, that those, not good enough to be dealers get jobs at Wal Mart etc.?

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If you're saying that I'm painting myself as a Saint or something, I did nothing as the sort.

I am not saying that. I am just saying that you are being defensive because you feel insecure.

Quote: SOOPOO

Whenever you give a raise, you must find the money somewhere. Lower corporate profits? I believe Caesars lost like a billion or so last year. Lower the pit bosses salaries? I don't think they feel they are overpaid. Make games with higher house edges? I don't think the customers would be happy. Dealers make what the market will bear, no more, no less.

Ah, if I knew the answer to that my user name would be "texasceo" or "texasbanker" or something like that. I can fix most anything mechanical but don't ask me to decipher that spread sheet. That's why I'm a member here, the math guys and gals sharing their knowledge and expertise. I am really enjoying the "Craps Math" thread at the moment. I can't dispute "what the market will bear" statement. That may or may not be fact.

But still, I have no problem raising their pay scale. "I", being the operative word, or letter. Since it ain't up to me, I don't think it matters what I do or don't have a problem with.

Quote: Paigowdan

As a casino dealer generally dealing with medicated mammals sweating their situation, I simply seek what a veterinarian makes.

Although your metaphor is humorous, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, veterinarians earn a median wage of $82,040 per year (May 2010). They also go to school for 7 years. I think they are underpaid at 82k.

Okay, a little personal here...

[from weaselman, about inquiries into my history, and that I worked at a bowling alley in riverdale, Bronx, Ny...]Ok. Let's keep going. A train conductor?
- No. But coming from a New York family, my paternal granfather, George, once work as a glazer for the New York City Transit authority. And while groing up in the Bronx, in additon to the Bowling alley/pool hall, I also worked at a local cab company, a printing shop, a McDonalds, and a Pharmacy, like this is an impressive resume as a kid/young man before the Army...actually, it is kind of typical...but the pool hall/bowling alley was the big gambling influence!...

Quote: wealeman

Why did you bring it up then? Nobody was asking where you worked before you were a dealer, or what else you have learned to do (design games) while you were one. If you don't think it is impressive, and it certainly is not relevant, why did you bring it up at all?

Well...Why do you think??!! Because experinece counts - and the bowling alley/pool hall was just a fantastic gambling learning experience. I could never replace this in my life. did anyone else had such a gambling introduction as a kid? "Mom, It's JUST an afterschool job..."
We're talking:
- exposure to bookies, learning the odds on sports/race/prob bets;
- making prop bets on pool players - and on anything without fear, some thought, and some good sportsmanship;
- trips to Yonkers raceway (after high school, the trotters);
- after hour joints;
- dice shooters coming in from/out to Atlantic City (newly opened at the time/late 70's early 80's).

This intro to gambling then really set the stage for me and my later life (and to a lesser extent my brother Bob)...
You got to think about this...in learning a business well, you learn young - as an apprentice, - even though I was NOT an apprentice, but "just learning degenerate ways" from a fairly atypical after school/post-high-school job as middle-class kid then...folks were like, "Danny, what are you thinking?? What kind of job is THAT??, really!!" - but it made the same kind of money as if I had worked in a hardware store, - but, really, think about this job for a kid setting me up 30 years later - as a dice dealer and game designer - it REALLY had an effect looking back now....

Now, think about this:
twenty-five years after my bowling alley youth - when I was later being out-source from my New York City data processing position at 45 years of age, with no further computer mainframe prospects twenty-five years later, I sold my condo, and pack up to Vegas with TWO prospects:
1. Teaching with the Clark County School District (becuase of my math/Degree and their "experience-to-classroom program") in a North Las Vegas high school, and buying a cheap car and a condo;
2. Dealing in a gambling hall on Lake Mead Parkway...with my own "experience-to-classroom" program, and buying a cheap car and condo.

I fit right in to one of them.

Quote: CrystalMath

Although your metaphor is humorous, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, veterinarians earn a median wage of $82,040 per year (May 2010). They also go to school for 7 years. I think they are underpaid at 82k.

Smaller puppies, but many more of them....

Oh, and an edit:
A real man stiffs no one the juice or the tip.