Gialmere
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May 20th, 2024 at 11:08:46 PM permalink


An unusual scenario was asked about in a recent LiveStream...

"At a Pai Gow Poker table a player didn't bet the bonus and got five aces. He then demanded a cut of all envy bonuses or he would fold his hand. Would the other players have actually lost their bonuses?"

I won't quote what the Wizard and Heather answered. Instead, assume you're the floor who gets summoned to the table of furious players.

Quick! What ruling do you make?
Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.
AZDuffman
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May 21st, 2024 at 3:38:44 AM permalink
As floorman I would pull him aside and ask if he really wanted to do this. Maybe try to reason with him. Assuming he still wants to fold I would tell him he was free do do so. BUT he has to go and fold, he is not allowed to talk to the other players, he has to go to the table and fold or not fold. I would tell him that ANY verbal confrontation by him to other players on the matter will result in a 24-72 hour ejection. So it goes like this:

"Sir, you are free to play your hand as you wish within the rules. You are not free to collude with other players, which this can be considered. You are not free to disrupt the table. I have to ask you to go play your hand without involving the other players at the table. Please walk up and play or fold your hand, please do not discuss anything else. Please just say 'play' or 'fold.' If we have any more confrontation I will have to ask you to leave the property."

To the other players:

"He is allowed to play his hand as he wishes and I can do nothing about that. Please do not cause any confrontation."

Additionally, I might try to offer match play equal to what they were betting to everyone at the table but him.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
SOOPOO
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May 21st, 2024 at 1:46:02 PM permalink
AZ, I gave you a ‘thank you’. I love the idea of not fully letting the jerk get away with his jerk act. Match play great idea. But I’m guessing there are no real tables where any of the players get their envy bonus on a folded hand.
I’d just continually remind the jerk he lost a hand he was going to win because of his greed.
DJTeddyBear
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May 21st, 2024 at 1:55:37 PM permalink
Wow. What a jerk.


Considering there are other games where the side bet is live even after folding, I would assume this hand is still live for the envy.

Therefore, I wouldn’t tell him anything other than to play the hand - without discussing it with the other players.

If he folds, THEN tell him that was a bad decision and pay the other players their envy bonus.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Deucekies
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May 21st, 2024 at 2:46:34 PM permalink
This story is older than the hills. I'm sure it's happened more than once somewhere or other.

I've been told that there is at least one casino out there that made a rule to prevent this. If anyone has an envy chip, nobody is allowed to muck their hand. All cards must be tabled. I salute that casino for not taking the free money.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
ThatDonGuy
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May 21st, 2024 at 3:33:34 PM permalink
It's the player's hand to do as they wish.

I'm pretty sure something similar happened in a poker game where somebody intentionally folded a winning hand just to prevent another player from getting a bad beat jackpot.
AZDuffman
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May 21st, 2024 at 3:57:23 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

AZ, I gave you a ‘thank you’. I love the idea of not fully letting the jerk get away with his jerk act. Match play great idea. But I’m guessing there are no real tables where any of the players get their envy bonus on a folded hand.
I’d just continually remind the jerk he lost a hand he was going to win because of his greed.
link to original post



YW, great to talk actual gaming on here! As to your other points, I do not know the Asian games well enough to comment on the folded hand thing. But I do think the thing is you have to tell everyone to not discuss it.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
TaxrBux
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May 21st, 2024 at 8:12:20 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

It's the player's hand to do as they wish.

I'm pretty sure something similar happened in a poker game where somebody intentionally folded a winning hand just to prevent another player from getting a bad beat jackpot.
link to original post


I've heard two different versions of this story, so sadly, I'm starting to think it's apocryphal.
gordonm888
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May 22nd, 2024 at 4:15:20 AM permalink
Quote: TaxrBux

I've heard two different versions of this story, so sadly, I'm starting to think it's apocryphal.
link to original post



It's probably happened multiple times.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Zcore13
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May 22nd, 2024 at 7:22:06 AM permalink
Quote: Gialmere



An unusual scenario was asked about in a recent LiveStream...

"At a Pai Gow Poker table a player didn't bet the bonus and got five aces. He then demanded a cut of all envy bonuses or he would fold his hand. Would the other players have actually lost their bonuses?"

I won't quote what the Wizard and Heather answered. Instead, assume you're the floor who gets summoned to the table of furious players.

Quick! What ruling do you make?
link to original post



If the player showed the hand so that the dealer or surveillance could see it, I'd pay the envies and tell the player it's time to go home.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Joeman
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May 22nd, 2024 at 7:49:01 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

If the player showed the hand so that the dealer or surveillance could see it, I'd pay the envies and tell the player it's time to go home.

ZCore13
link to original post

I like this response, Z! I bet it would be long-term better for the casino to do this anyway.

I don't play Pai Gow all that often (I never knew that you could, or would want to, fold, but I guess it makes sense for the face-up game), and rarely play a Bonus that would include an Envy payout. But, if this extortion scenario ever played out without the pit or dealer doing anything to curtail it, I'd color up immediately.

I'm curious to know if there is a rule against the house flipping up (or at least the dealer peeking at) a folded Pai Gow hand. As soon as the player starts to mention something like this, could the dealer/pit boss just say, "Fold or don't, but either way, were paying the Envy!"
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
Zcore13
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May 22nd, 2024 at 8:31:44 AM permalink
Quote: Joeman

Quote: Zcore13

If the player showed the hand so that the dealer or surveillance could see it, I'd pay the envies and tell the player it's time to go home.

ZCore13
link to original post

I like this response, Z! I bet it would be long-term better for the casino to do this anyway.

I don't play Pai Gow all that often (I never knew that you could, or would want to, fold, but I guess it makes sense for the face-up game), and rarely play a Bonus that would include an Envy payout. But, if this extortion scenario ever played out without the pit or dealer doing anything to curtail it, I'd color up immediately.

I'm curious to know if there is a rule against the house flipping up (or at least the dealer peeking at) a folded Pai Gow hand. As soon as the player starts to mention something like this, could the dealer/pit boss just say, "Fold or don't, but either way, were paying the Envy!"
link to original post



I've never seen any casino flip a folded hand in Pai Gow to make sure it's not a winner. I don't even believe the fable of a person folding (I've heard it about texas holdem and now Pai Gow) to spite other players. Seems like an old wives tale to me.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
smoothgrh
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May 22nd, 2024 at 9:05:24 AM permalink
In this scenario from a gaming board integrity perspective, shouldn't a casino ensure that players are being properly paid on their wagers including the envy bonus? Or is the wager dependent on a live hand?
Hunterhill
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May 22nd, 2024 at 9:09:37 AM permalink
A similar story is a blackjack table that allows back betting. The seated player controls the decisions so he’s betting $ 5 while the back bettor is playing $500 .
The hand is dealt a hard 20 and seated player extorts the back bettor saying he will hit the hand if he doesn’t give him x amount of money.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
AZDuffman
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May 22nd, 2024 at 9:18:16 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Quote: Gialmere



An unusual scenario was asked about in a recent LiveStream...

"At a Pai Gow Poker table a player didn't bet the bonus and got five aces. He then demanded a cut of all envy bonuses or he would fold his hand. Would the other players have actually lost their bonuses?"

I won't quote what the Wizard and Heather answered. Instead, assume you're the floor who gets summoned to the table of furious players.

Quick! What ruling do you make?
link to original post



If the player showed the hand so that the dealer or surveillance could see it, I'd pay the envies and tell the player it's time to go home.

ZCore13
link to original post



Could bring potential fines from the gaming board. Why I said offer some match play.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
DogHand
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May 22nd, 2024 at 2:27:15 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

<snip>I've never seen any casino flip a folded hand in Pai Gow to make sure it's not a winner.<snip>link to original post


ZCore13,

I have seen precisely the opposite. Some of the places I play, after the players set their hands and the dealer plays, a losing player will then push together his High and Low hands as an indication that the dealer has beaten him. However, if other players have Envy buttons, the dealer will check the mucked hand to ensure it isn't enviable. However, I have never seen a case where the hand actually WAS enviable.

Dog Hand
DRich
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May 23rd, 2024 at 5:56:42 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13



If the player showed the hand so that the dealer or surveillance could see it, I'd pay the envies and tell the player it's time to go home.

ZCore13
link to original post



I agree but in some jurisdictions they may be prohibited. If the game rules have to be approved by the commission then they may not be allowed to if the hand is folded.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Zcore13
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May 23rd, 2024 at 11:04:24 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: Zcore13



If the player showed the hand so that the dealer or surveillance could see it, I'd pay the envies and tell the player it's time to go home.

ZCore13
link to original post



I agree but in some jurisdictions they may be prohibited. If the game rules have to be approved by the commission then they may not be allowed to if the hand is folded.
link to original post



Possible, but both places I've worked have had policies that allow Supervisor discretion to fix problems in the players favor. There is no rule that says we can allow players to take their bets back if a dealer misses a spot when dealing, but it's done. There is no rule that if a dealer accidently flips their hole cars over that we play it out exposed.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Wizard
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May 24th, 2024 at 5:59:26 AM permalink
I spoke with a former LV dealer about this yesterday. She said she saw the situation twice. Once with a full table and the extortionist got enough money to not fold. Some players refused to chip in, but the total collected was enough. The other time was with one other player, who refused to pay up. Said victim left in a huff, muttering foul language.

I asked if players might have had any redress if they complained to the floor and she said no. She simply said players are allowed to fold and why would the casino give away money it didn't have to.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
DRich
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May 24th, 2024 at 1:30:56 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I spoke with a former LV dealer about this yesterday. She said she saw the situation twice. Once with a full table and the extortionist got enough money to not fold. Some players refused to chip in, but the total collected was enough. The other time was with one other player, who refused to pay up. Said victim left in a huff, muttering foul language.

I asked if players might have had any redress if they complained to the floor and she said no. She simply said players are allowed to fold and why would the casino give away money it didn't have to.
link to original post



If someone tried that on me I might agree to pay them a percentage of my win and then just stiff them. Nothing they can do about it. Obviously, I have never been in that situation.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
smoothgrh
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May 24th, 2024 at 3:22:06 PM permalink
I'm confused: if someone has a hand like 5oaK, don't they win the bet and get their own bonus? Why would that person fold the hand just to spite those who don't go along with the extortion? Aren't they losing out on far more money on their own bet?
AZDuffman
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May 24th, 2024 at 3:40:30 PM permalink
Quote: smoothgrh

I'm confused: if someone has a hand like 5oaK, don't they win the bet and get their own bonus? Why would that person fold the hand just to spite those who don't go along with the extortion? Aren't they losing out on far more money on their own bet?
link to original post



I believe you have to make the bet to get your own bonus. I agree on the post above, agree to pay then tell them to go pound it. By law the casino has to pay the spot and any chops are people's own business. At least in poker.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Deucekies
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May 24th, 2024 at 3:49:35 PM permalink
Quote: smoothgrh

I'm confused: if someone has a hand like 5oaK, don't they win the bet and get their own bonus? Why would that person fold the hand just to spite those who don't go along with the extortion? Aren't they losing out on far more money on their own bet?
link to original post



If the player is playing the bonus, yes. In this hypothetical, the player with the Five Aces has chosen not to play the bonus, so all they can win is their 1:1 main bet.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
smoothgrh
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May 24th, 2024 at 6:19:54 PM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

Quote: smoothgrh

I'm confused: if someone has a hand like 5oaK, don't they win the bet and get their own bonus? Why would that person fold the hand just to spite those who don't go along with the extortion? Aren't they losing out on far more money on their own bet?
link to original post



If the player is playing the bonus, yes. In this hypothetical, the player with the Five Aces has chosen not to play the bonus, so all they can win is their 1:1 main bet.
link to original post



Ah, apologies. I had forgotten the original scenario's details.
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