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Wizard
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Wizard
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May 24th, 2021 at 2:11:21 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Finally if the argument is it's not part of the Broccoli produced films then that would negate Never Say Never Again which I would disagree with.



I don't count that either. However, I'll have a look at the scene and decide from there.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
smoothgrh
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May 24th, 2021 at 2:40:38 PM permalink
Quote: Gialmere

What about the 1954 game?



Is Bond Martingaling?!

(USA! USA! USA!!!)
Gialmere
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June 5th, 2021 at 12:53:53 PM permalink
Quote: smoothgrh

Quote: Gialmere

What about the 1954 game?



Is Bond Martingaling?!

(USA! USA! USA!!!)


I haven't read a James Bond novel in over twenty years so I don't remember how the game plays out in the "Casino Royal" book version. In many ways, this is the best Bond baccarat film. He actually explains the basics of how the game is played (beginning at the 6:08 mark) and there are many hands played and expressions used.

On the other hand, it's very confusing. There's no mention of why the Bank keeps doubling. Since it's sort of a tournament, it could be explained as the equivalent of raising the blinds in Texas Hold'em although I assume the real reason is that it allows Bond to quickly win in the short amount of time a TV show can give to such a scene.

There's only 4 people playing the game. Le Chiffre begins Banking with the shoe.

Blow-By-Blow
FIRST HAND: (For 1,000,000 francs) The player to Le Chiffre's left calls "Banco". Although this player has lowest priority, neither the "Banco Prime" player nor Bond say anything so the action starts here. The Player hand stands (on a 7). The Bank reveals a natural 9 and wins.

SECOND HAND: (As mentioned above, the stakes mysteriously double to 2,000,000 francs.) The preceding player calls "Banco Suivi" giving him priority. He asks for a card and receives an ace. The Bank stands with a 7. The player loses with a total of 4.

THIRD HAND: (For 4,000,000 francs although it appears to revert back to 1,000,000 if there's a new player) The player refuses to "Suivi". The player to the Bank's right refuses to banco. Bond calls "Banco". Bond wins with a natural 9 to the Bank's baccarat. For some reason, the shoe does not pass to the next position and Le Chiffre continues as Bank

FOURTH HAND: (For 2,000,000 francs) Bond calls "Banco". He refuses a card. Le Chiffre draws for a Banker total of 7. Bond loses with a total of 5. (He didn't hit a 5?)

FIFTH HAND: (For 4,000,000 francs) Bond calls "Banco Suivi". He stands on a 7. He loses to a natural 9.

SIXTH HAND: (For 8,000,000 francs) Bond calls "Banco Suivi". Both he and Le Chiffre draw cards. Player loses with a 3 to a Banker 6.

SEVENTH HAND: (For 16,000,000 francs) Bond calls "Banco Suivi". He refuses a card. His 7 loses to the Bank's natural 9.

EIGHTH HAND: (For 32,000,000 francs) Bond has lost all his money but is mysteriously given an envelope containing 32,000,000 francs. Bond calls "Banco Suivi". Both he and Le Chiffre draw cards. Bond wins with a Player 4 over a Banker 3.

Again, although he loses, Le Chiffre keeps the shoe. The Croupier informs him that the Bank is broke so he shoves 23,000,000 francs into the center. This is neither a double to 64,000,000 nor a restart to 1,000,000 so is a bit confusing. Also, as Bond explained the rules (at 6:08), a person buys the Bank. So, presumably, in this TV version you Bank until you either voluntarily pass the shoe, or go broke.

NINTH HAND: (For 23,000,000 francs) Bond, now looking cocky, calls "Suivi". He wins with a natural 9 (of course) over a Banker baccarat. Le Chiffre is out of money and leaves the table.

Thoughts
-Typical of a Bond Baccarat scene, the game is all banco and suivi. You never see a hand where the players each cover a smaller part of the Bank although Bond explains to Clarence(?) Leiter that it is indeed (and amazingly) allowed.

-Obviously this version is considered a crap Bond adventure. Peter Lorre, however, is very entertaining as the slimy Le Chiffre. He would have made a great Bond villain in the official film series.

-American agent Jimmy Bond pronounces "baccarat" with a hard "T" at the end.

-Trivia: This to date is one of only two James Bond adaptations (the other being 1981's For Your Eyes Only) in which a character called M does not appear.
Last edited by: Gialmere on Jun 5, 2021
Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.
odiousgambit
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June 5th, 2021 at 2:13:06 PM permalink
Thanks for the breakdown

I'm a little confused as to why you start referring to a TV show
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
unJon
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June 5th, 2021 at 2:21:53 PM permalink
The scene in the book is different and the rationale is explained well there. It’s the key plot point in the book as Bond’s grand plan to stop the bad guys is to beat him at Baccarat to deny him the money he needs to complete his diabolical plan.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
Gialmere
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Thanks for this post from:
odiousgambit
June 5th, 2021 at 3:03:23 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Thanks for the breakdown

I'm a little confused as to why you start referring to a TV show


In 1954 Fleming, needing money, sold the movie rights for Casino Royal to producers Gregory Ratoff and Michael Garrison. The TV rights, however, were sold to CBS and the filmed adaptation above is the live TV version on the Climax! series. (So the whole story is told in a mere 50 minutes.) A James Bond TV series was pitched but went nowhere. Fleming, however, did write a few episode ideas which became James Bond short stories such as "For Your Eyes Only" and "From a View to a Kill".

The film had trouble getting made. Garrison would drop out and go on to make his own spy show called "The Wild Wild West". Ratoff's widow was represented by producer Charles K. Feldman who would make the 1967 comedy film version. Sony pictures acquired the film rights when it bought Columbia. Sony then traded them to MGM for Spider-Man. This let the official Eon productions finally get a hold of it. And what better way to reboot the franchise than with the first novel.
Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.
odiousgambit
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June 5th, 2021 at 5:54:50 PM permalink
Thanks, I had convinced myself it was a 1954 movie shown in theaters, convinced enough not to look it up
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Gialmere
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June 12th, 2021 at 3:09:09 PM permalink


Quote: darkoz

Wizard:

I know it's easy to overlook but what about the Baccarat scenes in the 1967 Casino Royale spoof?

Although a spoof, the gambling scene is handled pretty seriously


The "Casino Royale" (1967) game is interesting since it revolves around what to do with a 5 hand, the one hand in Chemin De Fer that you (at least almost) always have free will on.

The Peter Sellers character (who I'll simply call "Bond") arrives at Casino Royale with Vesper Lynd. He's informed that Le Chiffre has bought the Bank for the night. This is not a tournament or "big game" but simply Le Chiffre betting big trying to regain money he took from SMERSH so, evidentally, buying the Bank is allowed. Indeed, "Casino Royale" (1954) also seems to suggest this is fairly common. There are no calls for "Banco" or "Suivi" at this table. It seems that if you play against Le Chiffre, you play mano-a-mano for the full amount of the Bank.

Le Chiffre is twice shown beating a (based on the dialogue) Greek Tycoon with a natural 9. Bond points out to Vesper that Le Chiffre is cheating with a pair of dark glasses that can see through the backs of the cards. (A POV shot shows both Player and Banker have natural 8s.) Bond sits down at the table in the #4 position. During their introductory banter, Vesper steals Le Chiffre's glasses.

-------------------------------------------------

HAND #1: The bank is for an unstated amount but, based on hand #3, is around 8,000,000 francs. Bond is dealt a 6 hand and gestures no card. Le Chiffre reveals a natural 9 and wins.

HAND #2: Le Chiffre suggests they double the Bank and Bond agrees. The bank is for an unstated amount but, based on hand #3, is around 16,500,000 francs. Bond is dealt a 5 hand and gestures no card. Le Chiffre also receives a 5 hand. He pauses for a moment and then draws a 2. Banker beats Player 7 to 5.

HAND #3: Bond asks for another game and Le Chiffre agrees provided the Bank doubles again. Bond counters that they treble it and Le Chiffre agrees. The croupier announces the Bank stands at 50,000,000 francs. Bond once again is dealt a 5 hand and, once again, gestures no card. Le Chiffre also receives another 5 hand. He taps his cards in thought and decides to draw. It's a 5 giving him a losing baccarat. Le Chiffre is out of money and a dead man walking.

--------------------------------------------------

Unfortunately, YouTube does not have a very good clip of the entire scene. This clip picks up the action at hand #2...



---------------------------------------------------

Thoughts

-- This is the only time hand gestures are used in a Bond baccarat game. While the Greek tycoon does verbally decline a card, Bond waves his hand palm down (a la blackjack) to indicate no card.

-- There must have been a large cluster of 2s and 3s in the shoe. Of the 14 cards played across the three coups, six of them are 3s and five of them are 2s. While counting cards in Punto Banco isn't really worth the effort, perhaps it is in Chemin De Fer. If you saw a parade of 2s and 3s go by, and your next hand was a 5, would you ask for a card?

-- There's a fascinating cat-and-mouse game over how to correctly play a 5 hand. In general, the Player is better off hitting, yet here, and in the 1954 version, Bond always stands. He also counsels Tracy in OHMSS to play it safe on a 5 and stand.

-- In Bond baccarat scenes, you never see a hand like, say, a 7/8. I guess it would be cinematically tedious to explain that 7 + 8 = 5. (This might explain the cluster of 2s and 3s mentioned above.)

-- Like Peter Lorre in 1954, Orson Welles does a terrific job as Le Chiffre. Both actors attack the character using their own strengths with Lorre interpreting him as a slimy toad villain while Welles presents him as a pompous, commanding intellectual. Welles would have also made a great villain in an EON production.

-------------------------------------------------------

Trivia Question

In addition to "Casino Royale" (1954), "Casino Royale" (1967), and "Casino Royale" (2006), in what other Bond film does 007 end up at Casino Royale?
Last edited by: Gialmere on Jun 12, 2021
Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.
Wizard
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June 12th, 2021 at 9:07:35 PM permalink
Quote: Gialmere

Trivia Question

In addition to "Casino Royale" (1954), "Casino Royale" (1967), and "Casino Royale" (2006), in what other Bond film does 007 end up at Casino Royale?



Goldeneye
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Gialmere
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June 13th, 2021 at 2:09:00 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Goldeneye


That's actually a really good guess but, incorrect.
Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.

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