Advantage Slot Play

Quote: Mission146

I understand what you are describing and would never think to call that a, "Side Game." You would just call that a Progressive Free Games meter.

Interestingly, the slot machine game Three Kings has a progressive Free Games meter, which consists of three different Free Games totals and can NEVER be played at an advantage...even if all three meters are at their max.

Anyway, there are a few games that do what you describe with a couple of recent newish ones that just came out. I wouldn't say there are a ton of any of those, but there are a few. I don't understand why knowing the approximate value of each Free Game and then figuring out what a particular Progressive (or combination) needs to be that would not count as slots advantage play...but if you say it doesn't, then I guess it doesn't.

Quote: Mission146

You're welcome. Many states tax both table games and slots at the same percentage, but some states tax them at different percentages. Oddly enough, the State of Pennsylvania is one that taxes slots/video poker revenues at more than 50%, but taxes Table Games at a significantly lower percentage.



Ocean Magic and just start with the Wizard of Odds page. That game does have, "Free Games," but the component that makes Ocean Magic variable state has absolutely nothing to do with the Free Games. The component is also not a side game...unless you REALLY want to call it one, but it all acts as part of one game.

Yes. Any slot machine that does not have a progressive or a variable-state function of any kind is not AP plausible on its own. Walk into a casino. Look around. Almost all of them. Diamond Hunt, Quick Hits (if no Progressives), Better Off Ed...all kinds of games.

The features are not, "Added separately," they're just part of the game. Ocean Magic without the bubbles would never get approved because just the reels + Free Games would not meet minimum return requirements. You'd have to change one of those two things to make the return better, anyway.

Quote: USpapergames

Sir, I didn't make up these terms they have been game design staples far before I was born. It May have even been termed in the early 50's we're games were starting to become readily mathematically analyzed.

I'm sorry I did t define the term sooner, but I have a language processing disorder and tried my best to describe the definition.

Quote: USpapergames

The bubbles are 100% considered a side game. I'm sorry you don't have the game design experience to distinguish the slot game from the side games but I promise you the bubbles have nothing to do with making the reels align for a payout.

Quote: USpapergames

The bubbles are 100% considered a side game. I'm sorry you don't have the game design experience to distinguish the slot game from the side games but I promise you the bubbles have nothing to do with making the reels align for a payout.

Quote: USpapergames

Everyone use your brains for a second.

Quote: USpapergames

Everyone use your brains for a second. What would you call a bet that is not part of the main game but adds to the main game? A side bet! So a game that adds to the main game would be called a side game! If I come up with a side bet for roulette or black jack, I didn't need to get the game roulette or black jack approved, just the side bet! This is essentially the same thing with slot machines, the only difference is the slot game needs to get approved only because they need to confirm that it's game mechanics operate like the previous machines. There is no need to confirm that a dealer can still operate blackjack effectively lol

Quote: Mission146

Wild symbols do and if an Ocean Magic symbol on a reel hits the bubble, then the bubble and all symbols adjacent to the bubble become WILD. Even if the Ocean Magic symbol does not hit the bubble, the bubble itself is wild. Wild symbols certainly cause reels to align for a payout, wouldn't you agree?

Quote: USpapergames

Yes this is a side game feature which transforms the outcomes of the slot game. It's obvious these are 2 separate games is it not? The Wild symbol was never on the slot reel to begin with!!!

Quote: Mission146

That's fine, it's just not a term that would really be used to describe casino games. I would understand the term in the context of a video game.

Quote: CrystalMath

Nope. One game. I don't expect you to understand.

Quote: Mission146

On slot machines, you almost always only make one bet on a spin. The only possible exception I can think of is a slot game that has a specifically designated feature that costs extra credits, or (and this is rare) a game that forces the player to make a bet on each individual bonus game...but I think I've only seen that on a few somewhat5 specific video keno games.

Quote: sabre

Yup, that's definitely the problem in this thread. Nobody but you is using their brain. Nothing is your fault. Best of luck with what you're trying to accomplish. I have no idea what that is, but I'll confess I'm not using my brain.

Quote: USpapergames

Many games are conglomerates of multiple games. I also don't expect you to understand this.

Quote: USpapergames

When I say use your brain, I mean please give it some deep thought. Everyone here seems to have some preconceived notion of these terms without giving them some thought.

Quote: CrystalMath

Get back to me once you have a slot game approved.

Quote: DRich

The people here understand terms as they apply to casino gaming. You seem to be the one with preconcieved notions on your ability when it comes to casino game design.

Quote: USpapergames

I'm starting to think I know more about slot machine game design than everyone else on this thread

Quote: USpapergames

Quote: Mission146

Yes, many states have a jurisdictional maximum slot return.

The maximum return in West Virginia for a slot machine is supposed to be 95%, for one example. Keep in mind that various states tax casino revenues, which refers to net win, so it is indeed in a jurisdiction's interest that the casino not give money away.

The positive EV is coming as a fundamental function of the way the game was designed. I still don't know what you mean by, "Side games." Some machines have what you might call, "Side game," and others do not. I would say that most variable state slot machines that a person would vulture do not have a, "Side game," or if they do, that the side game has nothing to do with whether the machine's next spin has a positive expectation.

If you're referring to Progressive Free Games machines, a few of which function on a must-hit basis, then I will say that those are not the only types of variable-state slots that can be played at an advantage. In fact, they'd be in the minority.

Even if you expanded on that to include all progressives of any kind, there would still be slot machines that can be played at an advantage provided you know when to play and when not to play. Of those, the, "Free Games," usually has exactly nothing to do with whether or not the game is at an advantage because the Free Games probabilities (and expected returns of Free Games) tend to be a known and fixed commodity.

Thank you for teaching me something new, this doesn't happen often here so id like to give you some serious respect for that ;) Never would have guessed a state would care about a casinos minimum house edge. This only applies to gaming machines correct? Obviously we have table games with much less of a house edge ;)

Now getting back to the question at hand. Please share any slot machine that you believe is AP plausible & I will review that machine till my eyes go blind ;)

What fundamental function are you talking about? Let me rephrase the question, do you know any slot machines which are not AP plausible??? Because if so than what makes the slots that are AP plausible different than the ones that aren't? Is it perhaps because of the extra side games & features that were added on separately to make that game stand out which is causing the game to be AP plausible?

Quote: USpapergames

For everyone who voted that I was incorrect, let me again rephrase the question: Can anyone show me a machine which it's main slot game is AP plausible?

Quote: CrystalMath

Congratulations

Quote: SOOPOO

This above post shows conclusively that you know and understand less about a variable state slot machine than anyone else posting on this thread.

I know very little about them, but in less than 10 minutes have been taught more than enough to take advantage of them. Just google Golden Egypt and read about how to beat it. If after such, you don’t understand how the overall return on the game if you played infinitely may be 90%, but if you only played in specific situations, your return will greatly exceed 100%. There have been many slot AP experts here who have tried to help you. You refuse to be helped.

Quote: SOOPOO

. Yes, EVERYONE posting here can! As I said in previous post, GOOGLE Golden Egypt. In the main slot game, there are times when the coins being already filled in certain columns leads to a greater than 100% return on your next spin. If you only play in those situations (I’ve don it) you have an advantage. I define that as AP slot play.

Quote: Hunterhill

Better question...why would anyone want to show you anything since you know everything.

Quote: Hunterhill

Better question...why would anyone want to show you anything since you know everything.

Quote: USpapergames

Golden Egypt has wilds that last on screen for multiple games. These wilds would be considered a side game since the game obviously has completed payouts followed by games with different symbols.

Quote: SOOPOO

The stupidest sentence to date.... ‘These wilds would be considered a side game’!!!!

I tried to help you. You obviously do not want to be helped. You have gaming EXPERTS like CrystalMath, DRich trying to help as well. Plus guys who actually DO AP Slots like Axel, Mission, PokerGrinder.... I wonder how long it will be until you are just totally ignored...?

Quote: USpapergames

Guys, the casino industry needs to be attended GDC events and get with the rest of the game industry. Doesn't matter what games you make you show up to GDC to learn and speak about the knowledge that has been acquired. They go over the science and hardcore math analysis and share the industry secrets in exchange for learning other's secrets in the industry. Why is the casino industry so smug to think they are above attending these events??? Isn't the casino industry nothing more than wagering on video games or board games? Where do you think the word table games came from? Tabletop games, like board games! Not every video game has physics engines but the digital games we are making today like OM bubbles use them! There is no difference in these industries and if people what to know why I'm going to kick the casino industry's ass is because I have a lifetime's worth of knowledge to pull from game design as a whole, & not just when I started working on digital games!

https://youtu.be/E8Lhqri8tZk

This GDC lecture is the closest thing the casino industry ever got to attending GDC & just look at how all the game designers just talk shit about our industry's slot game design.

Quote: USpapergames

I asked a simple question earlier & didn't get ana answer from anyone. Do you consider a game to be completed once the reel outcomes have been decided or when until your bonuses have completed?

Quote: rdw4potus

Show your work. Prove that video slot designers do not attend GDC. I've seen many of the same people at GDC and G2E when I've attended them...

Quote: SOOPOO

I guess you don’t understand. I walk up to a Golden Egypt game. I identify a situation (NOT A BONUS) that I have been taught that the EV on my FIRST coin in is +. The game is played. I either win or lose the game, and then re evaluate the state of the game. If it is still + EV I will insert more money and play again. If not, I cash out. I consider the game completed at the conclusion of each spin. I then decide if I am going to risk more money on the next spin.

Quote: USpapergames

Guys, what is the highest return on just the slot games being played today? 25x? 50x? Certainly no jackpot amounts.

Quote: rdw4potus

A full screen of the top symbol on dancing drums pays $18,225 on an 8.88 bet (3x3x3x3x3x75).

Quote: USpapergames

Ok, that's impressive. And I'm assuming that's just standard slot game mechanics getting that payout but because there are so many more symbols they can have the payouts crazy large. Btw when I release Royal Slots, hitting Matching Quads will pay out 25,000 to 1 ;)

Now is dancing drums slot game AP plausible?

Quote: rdw4potus

Yes, it is AP plausible. There are progressive jackpots. If they are very high, it can be +EV.

Quote: USpapergames

No that's not true. AP slot play doesn't take any money away from the player. The player choose to walk away from a profitable spot plus your getting the casinos forced payout & not the players money.

Quote: USpapergames

Omg, progressive jackpots are 100% side games guys ☹

That 18k return isn't a progressive jackpot correct? Please explain how the progressive jackpot pays out and in your explanation you will discover the roots to the progressive have nothing to do with the slot game.

Quote: USpapergames

Omg, progressive jackpots are 100% side games guys ☹

Quote: Mental

I can't argue with your statement that the players are usually walking away voluntarily. However, I have seen too many vultures creating opportunities by talking clueless ploppies into creating opportunities and then inducing them to move on to a different denomination, etc. This is truly fleecing other fish. It is not something I would ever do.

Also, if you have experience with the Harley Davidson game, you can see that there was a flaw in the game design. HD swings too deeply negative EV when all the free game meters are near reset. Ploppies liked the game (especially at full ear-splitting volume) and women loved Sam Elliot's voice. However, they lost to much money on the game because APs were taking huge +EV out of the game and leaving severely negative average EV for the ploppies. Almost all HDs are gone from my area. I had a pretty good model for the game and I was undercutting the other APs.

I did see an AP team chasing a $3.20 HD Mega at 307 free games around 2am. They were not happy campers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VK4Gi9-ZgSI

Quote: sabre

You haven't factored in the turnip squeeze of the slot game though. Without considering the turnip squeeze, your analysis is deeply flawed. If you don't know what the turnip squeeze is, then it's obvious you don't have the game design experience necessary to analyze the entirety of the slot game. The turnip squeeze is a vital part of the game. I'm correct, and you're wrong. Turnip squeeze.

Quote: rdw4potus

The 18k is a line hit. Or, I guess, a lot of 75 dollar line hits. The progressive feature on that game is a picking feature. Match 3, win that prize.

You can call that progressive feature a side game if you want. It really doesn't matter. The regulators look at the overall game and total return. If a side game adds appeal, great! That is what makes players want to play games.

Quote: sabre

I think I get it now. Side games are whatever you want them to be. They can be found in the air on a warm summer day. Or in the smile of a child. In the fluttering of a hummingbird's wings. They're a metaphor. Or possible a simile.

In the end, it's not about whether we can define them, but it's just important that we find them.