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USpapergames
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December 12th, 2020 at 12:29:46 AM permalink
Am I correct that there truly is no such thing as advantage slot play? There is no way to gain an advantage from the actual "slot" game but there are ways to gain an edge at getting jackpots & bonuses that can then affect the stot game???
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sabre
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December 12th, 2020 at 12:31:45 AM permalink
No, you are not correct.
ChumpChange
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December 12th, 2020 at 12:45:41 AM permalink
There is such a thing as casinos driving their customers away by tightening their machines week after week after week.
USpapergames
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December 12th, 2020 at 12:59:26 AM permalink
Quote: sabre

No, you are not correct.



Can you please explain or share an example? I'm not sure how someone could gain an advantage from just the slot outcomes, not including the jackpots or bonuses. Almost sounds to me like the machine has to be set to pay out more than it collects in order for a player to gain an edge this way :/

P.S. you can always send me a private message
Last edited by: USpapergames on Dec 12, 2020
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AxelWolf
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December 12th, 2020 at 1:55:21 AM permalink
Quote: USpapergames

Can you please explain or share an example? I'm not sure how someone could gain an advantage from just the slot outcomes, not including the jackpots or bonuses. Almost sounds to me like the machine has to be set to pay out more than it collects in order for a player to gain an edge this way :/

P.S. you can always send me a private message

For the most part you are correct. You need something special or extra going on. There's many different situations that can be +Ev, like a progressive(I assume that's what you mean by a jackpot) a promotion/ marketing department/ slot club or even some type of a glitch.

There are machines you can vulture. Call them what you want, accumulator slots/ banking slots/variable State slots. This is where someone plays the machine and builds up value but leaves the machine before they collect that built up value. And now you come along and only play when those values are built up to over 100% Payback and then stop once you've collected the value.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
teliot
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December 12th, 2020 at 8:40:52 AM permalink
This book is by a guy who used a method that is still widely used to beat slots, namely, exploiting must-hit-by progressives:

https://www.amazon.com/Million-Dollar-Slots-Peter-Liston/dp/0987272969/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=million+dollar+slot&qid=1607791225&sr=8-2
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DRich
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December 12th, 2020 at 8:43:58 AM permalink
Quote: teliot

This book is by a guy who used a method that is still widely used to beat slots, namely, exploiting must-hit-by progressives:

https://www.amazon.com/Million-Dollar-Slots-Peter-Liston/dp/0987272969/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=million+dollar+slot&qid=1607791225&sr=8-2



I still have not read that book. I should probably download it to my Kindle so the next time I take a trip I will have something interesting to read on the plane.
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darkoz
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December 12th, 2020 at 8:58:06 AM permalink
Quote: teliot

This book is by a guy who used a method that is still widely used to beat slots, namely, exploiting must-hit-by progressives:

https://www.amazon.com/Million-Dollar-Slots-Peter-Liston/dp/0987272969/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=million+dollar+slot&qid=1607791225&sr=8-2



I didn't buy his book because I understood that his methods for beat must-hits pertained mostly to Australia where he lives.

The meter movements and other gambling aspects of the mechanics of must-hits in Australia are different than elsewhere and made his ability to win possible there but not so possible elsewhere.

EDIT: I had to look up the type of machines he was beating. Something called Pokies! A form of Must-hit different from the ones here in the USA and elsewhere.
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teliot
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December 12th, 2020 at 9:03:11 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I didn't buy his book because I understood that his methods for beat must-hits pertained mostly to Australia where he lives.

The meter movements and other gambling aspects of the mechanics of must-hits in Australia are different than elsewhere and made his ability to win possible there but not so possible elsewhere.

I am not sure what he includes in the book, but I heard him speak at the World Game Protection Conference many years ago. During the talk he posted a formula that took into account the increment of the progressive (meter movement, as you say), its must-hit-by amount, and the h/a of the slot and output when it was profitable to play the slot. That formula was pretty simple, and I would expect it would apply just as well to must-hit-by progressives in every jurisdiction. But, I don't know that for sure. I cannot say if that formula is in his book. Judging by the reviews of his book on Amazon, I would speculate that it is not.

The way he explained hit, he was responsible for the worldwide glut of must-hit-by vultures and the good old days are long gone.
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darkoz
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December 12th, 2020 at 9:09:50 AM permalink
Quote: teliot

I am not sure what he includes in the book, but I heard him speak at the World Game Protection Conference many years ago. During the talk he posted a formula that took into account the increment of the progressive (meter movement, as you say), its must-hit-by amount, and the h/a of the slot and output when it was profitable to play the slot. That formula was pretty simple, and I would expect it would apply just as well to must-hit-by progressives in every jurisdiction. But, I don't know that for sure. I cannot say if that formula is in his book. Judging by the reviews of his book on Amazon, I would speculate that it is not.

The way he explained hit, he was responsible for the worldwide glut of must-hit-by vultures and the good old days are long gone.



To be fair to the book and my own interests piqued I just ordered a copy so I will give my own review in a few weeks.

But in case you missed my edit to my post above, the book primarily is about a type of must-hits slot in Australia called Pokies.
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mcallister3200
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December 12th, 2020 at 9:13:17 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I didn't buy his book because I understood that his methods for beat must-hits pertained mostly to Australia where he lives.

The meter movements and other gambling aspects of the mechanics of must-hits in Australia are different than elsewhere and made his ability to win possible there but not so possible elsewhere.

EDIT: I had to look up the type of machines he was beating. Something called Pokies! A form of Must-hit different from the ones here in the USA and elsewhere.



Pokies are just what a regional slang term for a slot machine. I read the book some years ago. Not particularly interesting imo. Yes meter rates would make it much different but It’s the same formula everyone applies, no different than there being a 0.25% meter rate on one video poker machine and a 3% on another making one much more worthwhile to track.
DRich
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December 12th, 2020 at 9:23:53 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz



But in case you missed my edit to my post above, the book primarily is about a type of must-hits slot in Australia called Pokies.



Pokies is what Austrailans refer to as Poker machines. Which we refer to as video slots. I believe they were called poker machines because in the beginning most of the machines had symbols for A K Q J T. Even many American video slot machines still use those symbols.
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USpapergames
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December 12th, 2020 at 9:50:46 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

For the most part you are correct. You need something special or extra going on. There's many different situations that can be +Ev, like a progressive(I assume that's what you mean by a jackpot) a promotion/ marketing department/ slot club or even some type of a glitch.

There are machines you can vulture. Call them what you want, accumulator slots/ banking slots/variable State slots. This is where someone plays the machine and builds up value but leaves the machine before they collect that built up value. And now you come along and only play when those values are built up to over 100% Payback and then stop once you've collected the value.



Thank you so much for being the only person here to answer my question effectively.

I'd like everyone's attention please. I've been correct about slot machines this entire time. Everyone here has a misconception that slot games have advantage play when in accordance with how gaming regulations see it, slot games are 100% A.P.!!! Did you know that the jackpots or bonuses on these machines are not considered part of the slot game???

Legally any mini-game is a separate entity from the main game & you must file for its own gaming application approval & it's own mathematical analysis from a lab! You are using the terms incorrectly. Even all the side features that can give you free play games are kit considered a part of the slot game. There are no advantages playing the slot game, just the extra staff that the company added to the game can be exploited because they need to make it unique & stand out from the crowd.
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sabre
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December 12th, 2020 at 9:55:50 AM permalink
Quote: USpapergames

Thank you so much for being the only person here to answer my question effectively.

I'd like everyone's attention please. I've been correct about slot machines this entire time. Everyone here has a misconception that slot games have advantage play when in accordance with how gaming regulations see it, slot games are 100% A.P.!!! Did you know that the jackpots or bonuses on these machines are not considered part of the slot game???

Legally any mini-game is a separate entity from the main game & you must file for it's own gaming application approval & it's own mathematical analysis from a lab! You are using the terms incorrectly. Even all the side features that can give you free play games are kit considered a part of the slot game. There are no advantages playing the slot game, just the extra staff that the company added to the game can be exploited because they need to make it unique & stand out from the crowd.



Nothing you say here makes any sense whatsoever.
USpapergames
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December 12th, 2020 at 10:00:00 AM permalink
Quote: sabre

Nothing you say here makes any sense whatsoever.



So basically, everyone slot machine has the standard slot game that everyone uses which is 100% A.P. free & then they add to it other games which are legally classified as a game & a separate entity from the slot game but there have been many of these added games which are A.P. possible. Basically the only edge you can have on a slot machine is in the extra stuff that the company added & not the slot game itself. Please do some research & you will see I'm telling the truth, or at least from the research I've done I think I am. Maybe you have some research that could change my mind that you would love to share ;)

Will always accept a private message 👍
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USpapergames
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December 12th, 2020 at 10:14:34 AM permalink
Does anyone here realize what this means??? It means my competitors are so stupid that they have a flawless slot design & can't design a side game that doesn't allow for A.P. play!!! 🤑 This is great news for me, I always thought the casino industry was soft when it came to game design but there is no excuse for so many companies to be putting out A.P. plausable machines lol I guarantee you all that it's not possible for A.P. with Royal Slots & my program already comes with jackpots.
Math is the only true form of knowledge
CrystalMath
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December 12th, 2020 at 10:17:28 AM permalink
I've been in the business for 18 years now, 6 of those at GLI, and the remaining 12 designing games and working in compliance. Nothing you have said is correct.
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USpapergames
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December 12th, 2020 at 10:18:16 AM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

I've been in the business for 18 years now, 6 of those at GLI, and the remaining 12 designing games and working in compliance. Nothing you have said is correct.



That's fine, can you please explain what is wrong with what I said?
Math is the only true form of knowledge
TDVegas
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December 12th, 2020 at 10:18:37 AM permalink
Anytime I’ve run across people claiming they are beating slots....they drive 25 year old broken down cars and look like they could use a meal, a barber shop and a trip to Kohl’s for new duds.

None of them seem to be “enjoying” the fruits of their labor.
USpapergames
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December 12th, 2020 at 10:21:05 AM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

Anytime I’ve run across people claiming they are beating slots....they drive 25 year old broken down cars and look like they could use a meal, a barber shop and a trip to Kohl’s for new duds.

None of them seem to be “enjoying” the fruits of their labor.



I think you are 100% right but please stick to the threads question, I am a game designer & I need to understand this question but all I have is research that others have shared to go on.
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CrystalMath
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December 12th, 2020 at 10:23:28 AM permalink
Quote: USpapergames

That's fine, can you please explain what is wrong with what I said?



You said so many incorrect things, it's tough to know where to start, but let's focus on this for now:

Jackpots and bonuses are considered part of the game. No separate approval. You submit the entire game at once.

The onus is on you to provide regulations that show otherwise.
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CrystalMath
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December 12th, 2020 at 10:28:18 AM permalink
Quote: USpapergames

It means my competitors are so stupid that they have a flawless slot design & can't design a side game that doesn't allow for A.P. play!!!



Companies intentionally make games that have variable states, some of which pay over 100%. Players also enjoy them.
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PokerGrinder
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December 12th, 2020 at 10:28:54 AM permalink
I won’t give you any info because that would hurt a lot of people but you’re 100% wrong on this. Slot machines are very beatable, I do it every day for large amounts of money.
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Mission146
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December 12th, 2020 at 10:31:54 AM permalink
Quote: USpapergames

Thank you so much for being the only person here to answer my question effectively.

I'd like everyone's attention please. I've been correct about slot machines this entire time. Everyone here has a misconception that slot games have advantage play when in accordance with how gaming regulations see it, slot games are 100% A.P.!!! Did you know that the jackpots or bonuses on these machines are not considered part of the slot game???

Legally any mini-game is a separate entity from the main game & you must file for its own gaming application approval & it's own mathematical analysis from a lab! You are using the terms incorrectly. Even all the side features that can give you free play games are kit considered a part of the slot game. There are no advantages playing the slot game, just the extra staff that the company added to the game can be exploited because they need to make it unique & stand out from the crowd.



Everything on a slot machine makes up the machine's overall return-to-player, the inverse of which is known as the House Edge.

Every gambling jurisdiction in the United States, in terms of Commercial Casinos, has a minimum permissible return-to-player for slot machines. Perhaps ironically, the lowest of these is Nevada at 75%.

Everything that happens on that machine, whether it be Free Games, mini games or other features contributes to the overall long-term expected return-to-player of those machines. If you only counted the, "Main game," the return-to-player would be low enough that most of the machines you describe would be illegal, pursuant to the applicable laws that govern minimum returns.

In summation, if those things were not considered, "Part of the slot game," then the return-to-player on the slot game would be sufficiently low to render the slot game itself illegal. Because all of these things ARE considered, "Part of the slot game," the slot game is sufficient to meet minimum return-to-player requirements.
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CrystalMath
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December 12th, 2020 at 10:32:21 AM permalink
Quote: USpapergames

Everyone here has a misconception that slot games have advantage play when in accordance with how gaming regulations see it, slot games are 100% A.P.!!!



I suppose you meant to say that per gaming regulations, slot games are not AP.

Gaming regulations do not care if a player can gain an advantage. Their concern is what the game returns over time, not to any individual player. It is entirely possible for a game to return 90% over time, but also be in a state that returns over 100% periodically.
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Mission146
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December 12th, 2020 at 10:35:22 AM permalink
Quote: USpapergames

Does anyone here realize what this means??? It means my competitors are so stupid that they have a flawless slot design & can't design a side game that doesn't allow for A.P. play!!! 🤑 This is great news for me, I always thought the casino industry was soft when it came to game design but there is no excuse for so many companies to be putting out A.P. plausable machines lol I guarantee you all that it's not possible for A.P. with Royal Slots & my program already comes with jackpots.



It's not difficult to design a slot game that can never be played at a positive expected return to player. The majority of slot games cannot be played, even temporarily, at a positive expectation.

Slot machine companies put out A.P. plausible machines because they often end up being popular and make the casinos, and by extension the manufacturers, a lot of money. Most players do not know how to only play the machines when they are in an advantageous state, or simply don't care, but enjoy the variable state features all the same.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
USpapergames
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December 12th, 2020 at 10:40:59 AM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

You said so many incorrect things, it's tough to know where to start, but let's focus on this for now:

Jackpots and bonuses are considered part of the game. No separate approval. You submit the entire game at once.

The onus is on you to provide regulations that show otherwise.



You misunderstood me, yes you have to submit the entire game for approval but the slot games that are being submitted are exactly identical in how they operate & the only differences to these machines are the side games that are added. All slot games have been approved by everyone gaming control board for decades, it's the side games that are added to the machines which are unique and require approval, even though the same game mechanics for the slot games haven't changed & again have passed these regulations for decades. Is that correct it am I wrong?
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USpapergames
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December 12th, 2020 at 10:44:44 AM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

Companies intentionally make games that have variable states, some of which pay over 100%. Players also enjoy them.



I was told that the majority of the casino operators don't change slot machine payouts because the regulations to do so are so extreme. But regardless, a casino purposefully setting its payouts for a positive return does not count as A.P. play! Advantage play is something that the player does to gain an edge. That is the exact definition. What your saying is that sometimes casinos just give players an edge which would kit be considered A.P. play! This thread is only discussing A. P. slot play.
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CrystalMath
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December 12th, 2020 at 10:46:38 AM permalink
Quote: USpapergames

You misunderstood me, yes you have to submit the entire game for approval but the slot games that are being submitted are exactly identical in how they operate & the only differences to these machines are the side games that are added. All slot games have been approved by everyone gaming control board for decades, it's the side games that are added to the machines which are unique and require approval, even though the same game mechanics for the slot games haven't changed & again have passed these regulations for decades. Is that correct it am I wrong?



Although it may be possible to reuse a base game and add different features, it is very rare. In fact, in hundreds of games, I've never flat out re-used a base game.

This may have been more prevalent when most games were 3 reel physical spinning reel slots, because there wasn't all that much you could do with a base game.
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USpapergames
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December 12th, 2020 at 10:47:52 AM permalink
Quote: PokerGrinder

I won’t give you any info because that would hurt a lot of people but you’re 100% wrong on this. Slot machines are very beatable, I do it every day for large amounts of money.



I understand the need for secrecy. I promise you I don't play slot machines, I am a professional poker play for almost a decade now & look down on A.P. slot play. But I am a game designer & this info is very valuable to me. So if encourage your support & I you could help me by sending me a cleavage message that would mean a lot, thank you ;)
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Mission146
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December 12th, 2020 at 10:52:20 AM permalink
Quote: USpapergames

I was told that the majority of the casino operators don't change slot machine payouts because the regulations to do so are so extreme. But regardless, a casino purposefully setting its payouts for a positive return does not count as A.P. play! Advantage play is something that the player does to gain an edge. That is the exact definition. What your saying is that sometimes casinos just give players an edge which would kit be considered A.P. play! This thread is only discussing A. P. slot play.



That's not what he is saying. I should also mention that there are several jurisdictions that have maximum returns-to-player that are less than 100%, so if the games were programmed to have a long-term return over 100%, they would be illegal in those jurisdictions.

Variable-state machines, quite simply, have a long-term expected return that comports to the regulations of a given jurisdiction by having a long-term expectation not less than the minimum permitted and not more than the maximum, if any. However, due to the variable state, an individual spin can have an expectation that can be well under the jurisdictional minimum (for long-term return) and well over the jurisdictional maximum (if any).

So, one play can have an expected return for that play as low as 40%, but it's possible that the spin right after that might have an expected return of over 100%.

The part where AP comes into play on such a machine is simply knowing whether or not the next spin has a positive expectation. That's not as easy as it sounds when you consider that a machine can have several different states...though I will admit that it's pretty easy on a good many games to find some basic parameters that are definitely an advantage.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
USpapergames
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December 12th, 2020 at 10:55:33 AM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

I suppose you meant to say that per gaming regulations, slot games are not AP.

Gaming regulations do not care if a player can gain an advantage. Their concern is what the game returns over time, not to any individual player. It is entirely possible for a game to return 90% over time, but also be in a state that returns over 100% periodically.



Yes, you are correct in that payouts could be set to periodically pay out different amounts. But let's get back to the question which I think there may have been some miscommunication. As a game designer, there is a huge difference between the slot game & the slot machine. The slot game is nothing more than the outcomes from the game's initial reels.

So for example I play the slot game & I win a mini-game. Now technically the slot game is finished & the mini-game is in play (which would not be considered a slot game since the initial reels symbols do not affect the mini-games outcome. Now let's say the mini-game is A.P. plausible but the slot game isn't, does that make sense? Your not gaining an advantage in the slot game, just the side game which could be poorly designed for players to take advantage of. As a game designer, you can't possibly call these 2 games the same, so slot machines are totally A.P. plausible but the slot game which hasn't changed for decades isn't.
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CrystalMath
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December 12th, 2020 at 10:59:18 AM permalink
Quote: USpapergames

I was told that the majority of the casino operators don't change slot machine payouts because the regulations to do so are so extreme. But regardless, a casino purposefully setting its payouts for a positive return does not count as A.P. play! Advantage play is something that the player does to gain an edge. That is the exact definition. What your saying is that sometimes casinos just give players an edge which would kit be considered A.P. play! This thread is only discussing A. P. slot play.



Yes, for the most part, casinos set up their game once and keep that return percentage. In most jurisdictions, it is not easy or really feasible to change.

There are games that change state and sometimes that state pays over 100%. Take, for example, Ultimate X. If the game is in it's base state, then that game has under 50% return to the player. But, if you win, your next hand will have a multiplier. When there is a multiplier on the next hand, that hand has over 100% return. The AP is when an unwitting player leaves the machine with a multiplier on the next hand. The machine will retain the multiplier for whoever plays next, and that player will have over 100% return for 1 game.

See above. Mission said it much more eloquently.
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AxelWolf
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December 12th, 2020 at 11:03:52 AM permalink
Quote: USpapergames

Does anyone here realize what this means??? It means my competitors are so stupid that they have a flawless slot design & can't design a side game that doesn't allow for A.P. play!!! 🤑 This is great news for me, I always thought the casino industry was soft when it came to game design but there is no excuse for so many companies to be putting out A.P. plausable machines lol I guarantee you all that it's not possible for A.P. with Royal Slots & my program already comes with jackpots.

first off, I want to say that there's oftentimes an exception to just about every rule when it comes to casino games. I'm fairly certain there has been a slot machine that had a straight-up payback of over a hundred percent, kind of like full pay Deuces Wild or something like that, perhaps as a loss leader. Of course, something like this would be super rare.

The only rule that certain for everyone... if the math doesn't add up to over 100% for whatever method you're using on anything then you do not, will not, cannot have an advantage.
------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure why it is we're having a hard time understanding you.

I almost think that what you're talking about is how the bonus rounds don't have to be random like standard slot spins must be. It's fairly obvious that most all bonus rounds, once triggered, are well over 100% payback.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Mission146
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December 12th, 2020 at 11:04:05 AM permalink
Quote: USpapergames



So for example I play the slot game & I win a mini-game. Now technically the slot game is finished & the mini-game is in play (which would not be considered a slot game since the initial reels symbols have no effect on the mini-games outcome. Now let's say the mini-game is A.P. plausible but the slot game isn't, does that make sense? Your not gaining an advantage in the slot game, just the side game which could be poorly designed for players to take advantage of. As a game designer you can't possibly call these 2 games the same, so slot machines are totally A.P. plausible but the slot game which hasn't changed for decades isn't.



For background, I have a degree in Economics.

Imagine if I went into a doctorate level Astrophysics class and just started firing off questions off of the top of my head. Almost as if by accident, I occasionally threw an astrophysics term out there, but in the context of my questions, the term was either used incorrectly or had no bearing on what it was I was trying to ask.

In that situation, the class would likely give me strange looks and be unable to answer my question...not because it was too difficult...but my question was so far removed from reality as to lack any meaning. If not removed from reality, then at least removed from any of the terms that would normally be used to express the question properly.

Welcome to Astrophysics. Please describe what you mean by, "Mini-Game," and, "Side Game." The easiest example of a variable-state situation I could give you for slots does not have anything that I would call, "Mini-Game," or, "Side Game." There are Free Games, but aside from the fact that Free Games contribute to the base return, they have no bearing on whether or not the next spin is advantageous.

The advantage is either had or not had based on the variable state of what you seem to be calling the, "Main slot game."

Please follow that up by asking a logical question in a way that can be answered logically. If you fail to do this, I will respond to bid you good day and not look at this thread again. Thank you.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
CrystalMath
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December 12th, 2020 at 11:04:49 AM permalink
Quote: USpapergames

I am a professional poker play for almost a decade now & look down on A.P. slot play.



Professional poker playing and AP slot play are the same. You are using your skills to take money from other players.
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December 12th, 2020 at 11:05:05 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

That's not what he is saying. I should also mention that there are several jurisdictions that have maximum returns-to-player that are less than 100%, so if the games were programmed to have a long-term return over 100%, they would be illegal in those jurisdictions.

Variable-state machines, quite simply, have a long-term expected return that comports to the regulations of a given jurisdiction by having a long-term expectation not less than the minimum permitted and not more than the maximum, if any. However, due to the variable state, an individual spin can have an expectation that can be well under the jurisdictional minimum (for long-term return) and well over the jurisdictional maximum (if any).

So, one play can have an expected return for that play as low as 40%, but it's possible that the spin right after that might have an expected return of over 100%.

The part where AP comes into play on such a machine is simply knowing whether or not the next spin has a positive expectation. That's not as easy as it sounds when you consider that a machine can have several different states...though I will admit that it's pretty easy on a good many games to find some basic parameters that are definitely an advantage.



So it's illegal to set slot machines to pay more than they take in? That's like saying it's illegal to give out money lol.

But seriously don't reply to that because we are seriously getting off topic. Yes you are right that all that matters for slot AP is I the next spin is has positive EV but think about the question that I posted. Is the positive EV coming from the slot game itself or the side game winnings? And yes side games that give free spins is a side game award & not a slot award. Also games that have reel manipulation where your reels can grow in size (buffalo rampage) is a side game & not the standard slot game!!!
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USpapergames
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December 12th, 2020 at 11:07:02 AM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

Professional poker playing and AP slot play are the same. You are using your skills to take money from other players.



No that's not true. AP slot play doesn't take any money away from the player. The player choose to walk away from a profitable spot plus your getting the casinos forced payout & not the players money.
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Mission146
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December 12th, 2020 at 11:19:12 AM permalink
Quote: USpapergames

So it's illegal to set slot machines to pay more than they take in? That's like saying it's illegal to give out money lol.

But seriously don't reply to that because we are seriously getting off topic. Yes you are right that all that matters for slot AP is I the next spin is has positive EV but think about the question that I posted. Is the positive EV coming from the slot game itself or the side game winnings? And yes side games that give free spins is a side game award & not a slot award. Also games that have reel manipulation where your reels can grow in size (buffalo rampage) is a side game & not the standard slot game!!!



Yes, many states have a jurisdictional maximum slot return.

The maximum return in West Virginia for a slot machine is supposed to be 95%, for one example. Keep in mind that various states tax casino revenues, which refers to net win, so it is indeed in a jurisdiction's interest that the casino not give money away.

The positive EV is coming as a fundamental function of the way the game was designed. I still don't know what you mean by, "Side games." Some machines have what you might call, "Side game," and others do not. I would say that most variable state slot machines that a person would vulture do not have a, "Side game," or if they do, that the side game has nothing to do with whether the machine's next spin has a positive expectation.

If you're referring to Progressive Free Games machines, a few of which function on a must-hit basis, then I will say that those are not the only types of variable-state slots that can be played at an advantage. In fact, they'd be in the minority.

Even if you expanded on that to include all progressives of any kind, there would still be slot machines that can be played at an advantage provided you know when to play and when not to play. Of those, the, "Free Games," usually has exactly nothing to do with whether or not the game is at an advantage because the Free Games probabilities (and expected returns of Free Games) tend to be a known and fixed commodity.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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December 12th, 2020 at 11:29:20 AM permalink
Anyway, I remember this one from eighth grade debate class.

The first thing that you have done is created a term, "Side game," which you have not defined. This term does not have any definite meaning as a term such as, "Return-to-Player," has meaning. We can agree on return-to-player and if you spoke to the contrary of the term's accepted meaning, then everyone could just tell you that's not what that means.

For what purpose I do not know, but you have picked a term, "Side game," which doesn't really have a set standard. You have neglected to define what you mean by the term, "Side game," so far, even though there's no generally accepted meaning that I'm aware of in this context.

Having selected the term, "Side game," and not having defined it, you can then say that the term describes basically whatever the hell you want it to describe. Kind of the opposite, because people are saying things which you are then saying are described by the term. If you define the term in advance, then a person could challenge that something you have said does not meet your own definition for the term.

Since you have not yet defined it, you can instead disregard anything that you want to as being a, "Side game," even if that thing is not a game of its own at all or is simply a function of the main game.

Everything above seems to be in service to your contention that standard slot games cannot be advantage played---which, for whatever reason, seems very important to you.

If, according to the way you would use the words, "Standard Slot Game," and, "Side Game," renders AP impossible on the, "Standard Slot Game," then I concede that you are right and slots AP is not possible. I can't express a contrary opinion when I don't even know what the words you are using are supposed to mean.
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December 12th, 2020 at 11:33:00 AM permalink
Quote: USpapergames

So it's illegal to set slot machines to pay more than they take in? That's like saying it's illegal to give out money lol.

But seriously don't reply to that because we are seriously getting off topic. Yes you are right that all that matters for slot AP is I the next spin is has positive EV but think about the question that I posted. Is the positive EV coming from the slot game itself or the side game winnings? And yes side games that give free spins is a side game award & not a slot award. Also games that have reel manipulation where your reels can grow in size (buffalo rampage) is a side game & not the standard slot game!!!



You insist on using words that only have meaning to you. You have people that have worked in the industry telling you that "side game" and "standard game" aren't terms used in the industry. Your insistence on using them is strange.

Oops - Mission addressed this much more clearly than I could as I was typing this.
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December 12th, 2020 at 11:36:25 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Yes, many states have a jurisdictional maximum slot return.

The maximum return in West Virginia for a slot machine is supposed to be 95%, for one example. Keep in mind that various states tax casino revenues, which refers to net win, so it is indeed in a jurisdiction's interest that the casino not give money away.

The positive EV is coming as a fundamental function of the way the game was designed. I still don't know what you mean by, "Side games." Some machines have what you might call, "Side game," and others do not. I would say that most variable state slot machines that a person would vulture do not have a, "Side game," or if they do, that the side game has nothing to do with whether the machine's next spin has a positive expectation.

If you're referring to Progressive Free Games machines, a few of which function on a must-hit basis, then I will say that those are not the only types of variable-state slots that can be played at an advantage. In fact, they'd be in the minority.

Even if you expanded on that to include all progressives of any kind, there would still be slot machines that can be played at an advantage provided you know when to play and when not to play. Of those, the, "Free Games," usually has exactly nothing to do with whether or not the game is at an advantage because the Free Games probabilities (and expected returns of Free Games) tend to be a known and fixed commodity.



Thank you for teaching me something new, this doesn't happen often here so id like to give you some serious respect for that ;) Never would have guessed a state would care about a casinos minimum house edge. This only applies to gaming machines correct? Obviously we have table games with much less of a house edge ;)

Now getting back to the question at hand. Please share any slot machine that you believe is AP plausible & I will review that machine till my eyes go blind ;)

What fundamental function are you talking about? Let me rephrase the question, do you know any slot machines which are not AP plausible??? Because if so than what makes the slots that are AP plausible different than the ones that aren't? Is it perhaps because of the extra side games & features that were added on separately to make that game stand out which is causing the game to be AP plausible?
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DRich
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December 12th, 2020 at 11:40:31 AM permalink
Quote: USpapergames

Did you know that the jackpots or bonuses on these machines are not considered part of the slot game???

Legally any mini-game is a separate entity from the main game & you must file for its own gaming application approval & it's own mathematical analysis from a lab!



Can you give some examples of popular games that require a second submission for their bonusses? I have submitted over 100 games and I don't recall ever having to do a second submission for the bonus.
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USpapergames
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December 12th, 2020 at 11:40:45 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146


Even if you expanded on that to include all progressives of any kind, there would still be slot machines that can be played at an advantage provided you know when to play and when not to play. Of those, the, "Free Games," usually has exactly nothing to do with whether or not the game is at an advantage because the Free Games probabilities (and expected returns of Free Games) tend to be a known and fixed commodity.



Yes but the variable amount of free games given could be making the game AP plausible. If there is an advantage to gain more free games on certain spins and not others than it's not the slot game that is AP plausible but rather the side game which is providing all the fee spins which is making the entire slot machine AP plausible. Does this make sense?
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USpapergames
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December 12th, 2020 at 11:45:29 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Anyway, I remember this one from eighth grade debate class.

The first thing that you have done is created a term, "Side game," which you have not defined. This term does not have any definite meaning as a term such as, "Return-to-Player," has meaning. We can agree on return-to-player and if you spoke to the contrary of the term's accepted meaning, then everyone could just tell you that's not what that means.

For what purpose I do not know, but you have picked a term, "Side game," which doesn't really have a set standard. You have neglected to define what you mean by the term, "Side game," so far, even though there's no generally accepted meaning that I'm aware of in this context.

Having selected the term, "Side game," and not having defined it, you can then say that the term describes basically whatever the hell you want it to describe. Kind of the opposite, because people are saying things which you are then saying are described by the term. If you define the term in advance, then a person could challenge that something you have said does not meet your own definition for the term.

Since you have not yet defined it, you can instead disregard anything that you want to as being a, "Side game," even if that thing is not a game of its own at all or is simply a function of the main game.

Everything above seems to be in service to your contention that standard slot games cannot be advantage played---which, for whatever reason, seems very important to you.

If, according to the way you would use the words, "Standard Slot Game," and, "Side Game," renders AP impossible on the, "Standard Slot Game," then I concede that you are right and slots AP is not possible. I can't express a contrary opinion when I don't even know what the words you are using are supposed to mean.



Sorry about the choice of terminology, the terms I'm using are in context to game design. A side game is going to be any separate gaming function that is not a direct payout from slot reels would be considered a side game. So for example if you spin and you hit 3 bells and get paid immediately for those bells & nothing else, that you were paid from the slot game. However you spin and you win a chance to hit a jackpot, you are now getting paid from the combination of the slot game and the side game. Even if you spin and win a free spin, you didn't win the free spin from the standard reel symbols so your winnings are still going to be a combination of slot & side game play.
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USpapergames
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December 12th, 2020 at 11:51:57 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Can you give some examples of popular games that require a second submission for their bonusses? I have submitted over 100 games and I don't recall ever having to do a second submission for the bonus.



Sorry, I used some poor word choices. Let me revise my statement. It's the same application but the side games are stated as separate entities and are evaluated separately on their own merits because often there is no need to review the slot games mechanics since there hasn't been a slot game redesign in over 20 years.
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Mission146
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December 12th, 2020 at 11:52:27 AM permalink
Quote: USpapergames




Thank you for teaching me something new, this doesn't happen often here so id like to give you some serious respect for that ;) Never would have guessed a state would care about a casinos minimum house edge. This only applies to gaming machines correct? Obviously we have table games with much less of a house edge ;)



You're welcome. Many states tax both table games and slots at the same percentage, but some states tax them at different percentages. Oddly enough, the State of Pennsylvania is one that taxes slots/video poker revenues at more than 50%, but taxes Table Games at a significantly lower percentage.

Quote:

Now getting back to the question at hand. Please share any slot machine that you believe is AP plausible & I will review that machine till my eyes go blind ;)

What fundamental function are you talking about? Let me rephrase the question, do you know any slot machines which are not AP plausible??? Because if so than what makes the slots that are AP plausible different than the ones that aren't? Is it perhaps because of the extra side games & features that were added on separately to make that game stand out which is causing the game to be AP plausible?



Ocean Magic and just start with the Wizard of Odds page. That game does have, "Free Games," but the component that makes Ocean Magic variable state has absolutely nothing to do with the Free Games. The component is also not a side game...unless you REALLY want to call it one, but it all acts as part of one game.

Yes. Any slot machine that does not have a progressive or a variable-state function of any kind is not AP plausible on its own. Walk into a casino. Look around. Almost all of them. Diamond Hunt, Quick Hits (if no Progressives), Better Off Ed...all kinds of games.

The features are not, "Added separately," they're just part of the game. Ocean Magic without the bubbles would never get approved because just the reels + Free Games would not meet minimum return requirements. You'd have to change one of those two things to make the return better, anyway.
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Mission146
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December 12th, 2020 at 11:56:05 AM permalink
Quote: USpapergames


Yes but the variable amount of free games given could be making the game AP plausible. If there is an advantage to gain more free games on certain spins and not others than it's not the slot game that is AP plausible but rather the side game which is providing all the fee spins which is making the entire slot machine AP plausible. Does this make sense?



I understand what you are describing and would never think to call that a, "Side Game." You would just call that a Progressive Free Games meter.

Interestingly, the slot machine game Three Kings has a progressive Free Games meter, which consists of three different Free Games totals and can NEVER be played at an advantage...even if all three meters are at their max.

Anyway, there are a few games that do what you describe with a couple of recent newish ones that just came out. I wouldn't say there are a ton of any of those, but there are a few. I don't understand why knowing the approximate value of each Free Game and then figuring out what a particular Progressive (or combination) needs to be that would not count as slots advantage play...but if you say it doesn't, then I guess it doesn't.
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USpapergames
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December 12th, 2020 at 11:56:37 AM permalink
Quote: sabre

You insist on using words that only have meaning to you. You have people that have worked in the industry telling you that "side game" and "standard game" aren't terms used in the industry. Your insistence on using them is strange.

Oops - Mission addressed this much more clearly than I could as I was typing this.



This is were your wrong. Yes those terms may not be used in the casino gaming industry but they should be since they are standard terms that are used in virtually every other gaming industry you can thing. Just because the casino industry isn't hip to the times of new game design doesn't mean they shouldn't be. Seriously the casino industry is stuck in the 1900's we're every other gaming industry (including board games) is up to date with it's time. That's why I entered the casino industry, because it's the 1 industry with the least about of improvements thought the decades ;)
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Mission146
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December 12th, 2020 at 11:58:26 AM permalink
Quote: USpapergames

Sorry about the choice of terminology, the terms I'm using are in context to game design. A side game is going to be any separate gaming function that is not a direct payout from slot reels would be considered a side game. So for example if you spin and you hit 3 bells and get paid immediately for those bells & nothing else, that you were paid from the slot game. However you spin and you win a chance to hit a jackpot, you are now getting paid from the combination of the slot game and the side game. Even if you spin and win a free spin, you didn't win the free spin from the standard reel symbols so your winnings are still going to be a combination of slot & side game play.



That's fine. What I am saying is that some functions influence the reels themselves and are a part of the main game. If a function turns certain reels or symbols wild, then that is a function of the main game and happens in the context of a given spin. I'd never call that a, "Side game," because it's not a separate game. That would be like saying being able to buy all of the railroads is a side game on Monopoly.
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