Are Card Recognition Shufflers Legit?
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December 6th, 2013 at 11:00:18 AM
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Being both a computer geek & somewhat cynical, I can't help but wonder if the Shuffle Masters that read cards have the ability to SORT them as well during their shuffling task? Since casinos are allowed to set the payout percentages on slot machines because the technology exists to do so, why not on the table games as well?
The reason my curiosity & "Spidey-Senses" got piqued is that during a Let It Ride Session I had the good fortune of hitting a 3 Card Straight Flush. One of the cards that would have completed the LIR 5 card straight flush appeared on the board, as well. (last, not first ... so not a heart pounding event ... lol) I was having a fun session & was friendly with the dealers & the Pit Boss. We all were remarking at how close that was. The Pit Boss looked at the computer screen and said that 5th card had not been dealt to anybody nor was it the burn card. It was a full table & he did this rather quickly. Anytime you connect a computer to another machine, anything becomes possible. It just made me wonder. On Shuffle Master's website they mention, in detail, the skill of their card reading technology & their reasons for it ... to protect the house from missing or added cards. (aside from speed meaning more hands dealt) I'd truly like to believe that this is true & their only function.
The reason my curiosity & "Spidey-Senses" got piqued is that during a Let It Ride Session I had the good fortune of hitting a 3 Card Straight Flush. One of the cards that would have completed the LIR 5 card straight flush appeared on the board, as well. (last, not first ... so not a heart pounding event ... lol) I was having a fun session & was friendly with the dealers & the Pit Boss. We all were remarking at how close that was. The Pit Boss looked at the computer screen and said that 5th card had not been dealt to anybody nor was it the burn card. It was a full table & he did this rather quickly. Anytime you connect a computer to another machine, anything becomes possible. It just made me wonder. On Shuffle Master's website they mention, in detail, the skill of their card reading technology & their reasons for it ... to protect the house from missing or added cards. (aside from speed meaning more hands dealt) I'd truly like to believe that this is true & their only function.
Can't stand smokey casinos so I rarely go. I can't imagine how much money that has saved me. :)
December 6th, 2013 at 11:04:32 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
December 6th, 2013 at 11:09:05 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesThis is nothing new with the I-deal shufflers.
Meaning they CAN sort or they just read? Or is this just not a new question? I tried searching for it in the forums b4 posting but couldn't find anything.
Can't stand smokey casinos so I rarely go. I can't imagine how much money that has saved me. :)
December 6th, 2013 at 11:12:44 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
December 6th, 2013 at 11:16:58 AM
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Quote: winkman14Being both a computer geek & somewhat cynical, I can't help but wonder if the Shuffle Masters that read cards have the ability to SORT them as well during their shuffling task?
Of course -- that's what they were designed to do.
Quote: US Pat. No. 6,676,127
Claim 8. An apparatus for arranging playing cards in a desired order...
See https://www.google.com/patents/US6676127
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
December 6th, 2013 at 11:24:22 AM
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Ahhh ... I understood the "swapping cards" problem they could potentially have in these games & that makes total sense to me to have the ability to verify. But if it IS capable of sorting, that's bothersome. Tells me they can cool off a hot table at the flip of a switch, like changing dice at a Crap Table. Simple database technology for a computer. So the idea is to be friendly, fun & tip while at the tables so the switch for YOUR seat is left positive or at the very least, neutral. (LOL)
Also just another reason I like MY policy of not getting a Player's Card at any of the casinos anymore. I don't care about the comps & don't need them tracking my play.
I miss the old Vegas days where the Pit Boss would just come over & hand you dinner or show tickets. No points required. (showing my age, now) Only time I'd want my play tracked was for Room Comps. But now I play locally so that's not a factor.
Also just another reason I like MY policy of not getting a Player's Card at any of the casinos anymore. I don't care about the comps & don't need them tracking my play.
I miss the old Vegas days where the Pit Boss would just come over & hand you dinner or show tickets. No points required. (showing my age, now) Only time I'd want my play tracked was for Room Comps. But now I play locally so that's not a factor.
Can't stand smokey casinos so I rarely go. I can't imagine how much money that has saved me. :)
December 6th, 2013 at 11:25:20 AM
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Quote: MathExtremistOf course -- that's what they were designed to do.
See https://www.google.com/patents/US6676127
Wow. Thank you.
Can't stand smokey casinos so I rarely go. I can't imagine how much money that has saved me. :)
December 6th, 2013 at 11:34:46 AM
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I have always thought this as well and, luckily, the games I play do not use CSM or any SM. However, assuming the machine could be programmed per 'basic strategy' - I do not see this working for long as most people who sit at a blackjack table can barely add to 21, let alone play perfect basic strategy
December 6th, 2013 at 11:48:21 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
December 6th, 2013 at 12:38:34 PM
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I had asked about this 6 months ago, and the answer I got (which is the answer you're getting) was: They are ABLE to, but they have safeguards built in (like play mode vs. sort mode) that do not allow them to. You can hear the machine reading and counting the cards as they're taken back in, one at a time, before shuffling. The shufflers' firmware and software are sealed against sorting hands for play, and periodically audited to ensure they're not able to. They can read what happened (or is about to happen), and they can verify a jackpot hand as it was dealt by comparing what seat got the jackpot and which jackpot to the cards as read. This is what the dealer's putting in when they punch the buttons on the side to record a payout on those bonuses, used as a verification that the jackpot was paid correctly.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
December 6th, 2013 at 12:56:45 PM
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I won't lump ALL machines together, but I am very skeptical of some of them. For example, some Indian casinos offer craps that's played with a deck of cards.
Well, there's one casino in particular where the machine consistently spits out 7's after the come-out whenever there's big action at the table. It never fails. I watched this happen for over a year. So people can talk all they want about safeguards, but I'm still skeptical. (Not saying I'm right, just skeptical)
Well, there's one casino in particular where the machine consistently spits out 7's after the come-out whenever there's big action at the table. It never fails. I watched this happen for over a year. So people can talk all they want about safeguards, but I'm still skeptical. (Not saying I'm right, just skeptical)
Fighting BS one post at a time!
December 6th, 2013 at 1:51:27 PM
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Thank you all for your input. I'm kind of leery about the Indian Casinos also, due to their not being regulated like standard casinos. I think this comes more into play with the slots & any of the machines with random number generators. I avoid those. But I also think what was said about the card shufflers NOT being able to sort in "play" mode holds water. And since the only casinos we have here in Florida with table games ARE the Indian Casinos, I will continue to enjoy them & not sweat the small stuff. (But I sure was curious, huh? LoL)
Can't stand smokey casinos so I rarely go. I can't imagine how much money that has saved me. :)
December 6th, 2013 at 2:02:00 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
December 6th, 2013 at 2:43:57 PM
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An interesting note;
The casino I frequent, I see a lot of PaiGow Jackpots get hit (Royal Flush + Royal Match, 5 Aces) and it ALWAYS shuts down the table, and I hear them say "Sorry, the shuffler can't verify the jackpot, so we have to call ShuffleMaster to come fix it."
I mean EVERY TIME there's a PG Jackpot this happens. It almost makes me question whether or not these jackpots ARE legit (Because honestly, I believe the damn shufflers are smarter than most people they employ!)
The casino I frequent, I see a lot of PaiGow Jackpots get hit (Royal Flush + Royal Match, 5 Aces) and it ALWAYS shuts down the table, and I hear them say "Sorry, the shuffler can't verify the jackpot, so we have to call ShuffleMaster to come fix it."
I mean EVERY TIME there's a PG Jackpot this happens. It almost makes me question whether or not these jackpots ARE legit (Because honestly, I believe the damn shufflers are smarter than most people they employ!)
"I am your average American gambling idiot" - Me
December 6th, 2013 at 3:57:17 PM
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I belie auto shufflers can be rigged. When I play poker you see the same cards to come out, players and the dealer can set you up this way.
December 6th, 2013 at 4:15:09 PM
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If faced with a choice at blackjack, all things being equal, I will play ASMs for the increased hands per hour. I've been doing it for sometime and have never seen anything questionable.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
December 6th, 2013 at 5:11:01 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
December 6th, 2013 at 5:48:19 PM
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A simple way to allay fears of a rigged shuffler game is to use a dice shaker to determine the starting player's position.
You can trust I-Deal machines on card games in exactly the same way you can trust slots machine. There was a long and detailed technical thread on this issue, this issue pops up from time to time as a player concern.
You can trust I-Deal machines on card games in exactly the same way you can trust slots machine. There was a long and detailed technical thread on this issue, this issue pops up from time to time as a player concern.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
December 6th, 2013 at 9:02:34 PM
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If this was true you could make a decent amount of money on this situation.Quote: Beethoven9thI won't lump ALL machines together, but I am very skeptical of some of them. For example, some Indian casinos offer craps that's played with a deck of cards.
Well, there's one casino in particular where the machine consistently spits out 7's after the come-out whenever there's big action at the table. It never fails. I watched this happen for over a year. So people can talk all they want about safeguards, but I'm still skeptical. (Not saying I'm right, just skeptical)
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
December 6th, 2013 at 9:29:31 PM
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Quote: winkman14Thank you all for your input. I'm kind of leery about the Indian Casinos also, due to their not being regulated like standard casinos. I think this comes more into play with the slots & any of the machines with random number generators. I avoid those. But I also think what was said about the card shufflers NOT being able to sort in "play" mode holds water. And since the only casinos we have here in Florida with table games ARE the Indian Casinos, I will continue to enjoy them & not sweat the small stuff. (But I sure was curious, huh? LoL)
Winkman,
Not sure where in Florida you live, but the Victory Casino Cruise in Port Canaveral hand-shuffles all BJ 3:2 6 deck, games are 5 or 10 dollars with 1 or 2 25 min tables. 3 craps tables ( 1 huge one, 2 look a little smaller), 3 roulette, all Vegas rules. Several other table games on board; 6 deck mini-bac hand shuffled, pen is 14-16 (can't remember which), UTH, 3cp, lir. pretty sure lir and 3cp are ASM, but UTH is definitely hand-shuffled. I think you'd like it.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
December 6th, 2013 at 10:41:00 PM
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Quote: Ibeatyouraces
Quote: 1BBIf faced with a choice at blackjack, all things being equal, I will play ASMs for the increased hands per hour. I've been doing it for sometime and have never seen anything questionable.
Me either. Same goes with the carnival games shufflers.
Hmm, two of the guys who spend the most time in casinos on these boards; in fact they make their living that way...always around casinos and games and new machines...don't seem to think there's any widespread issue or "conspiracy" out there to increase already-existent house edges and stuff....hmmmm. Yep! That's good enough for me. Something about tinfoil hats...
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
December 6th, 2013 at 11:40:10 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
December 7th, 2013 at 1:12:40 AM
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Quote: winkman14Being both a computer geek & somewhat cynical, I can't help but wonder if the Shuffle Masters that read cards have the ability to SORT them as well during their shuffling task?
Auto shufflers are capable of anything and should never be trusted.
Read this post:
https://wizardofvegas.com/member/lacasinoman/posts/
December 7th, 2013 at 1:12:40 AM
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edited
December 7th, 2013 at 5:44:57 AM
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Quote: TankoAuto shufflers are capable of anything and should never be trusted.
Read this post:
https://wizardofvegas.com/member/lacasinoman/posts/
I read that long winded post which was mostly a tutorial on the house edge and there is nothing new there. It says that casinos can cheat but they don't. Didn't we already know that? They could remove a few 10s from the deck but they don't. I know it feels like it sometimes but they don't. Peruse the worst plays thread and you'll see why. All many players need is a little rope to hang themselves.
Anyone concerned about machines can simply avoid them for their own peace of mind. I'd be more concerned with dealers cheating without the casino's knowledge and even that's very rare.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
December 7th, 2013 at 6:18:13 AM
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Quote: AxelWolfIf this was true you could make a decent amount of money on this situation.Quote: Beethoven9thI won't lump ALL machines together, but I am very skeptical of some of them. For example, some Indian casinos offer craps that's played with a deck of cards.
Well, there's one casino in particular where the machine consistently spits out 7's after the come-out whenever there's big action at the table. It never fails. I watched this happen for over a year. So people can talk all they want about safeguards, but I'm still skeptical. (Not saying I'm right, just skeptical)
No, because whenever there's heavy action on the Don't, there will be a bunch of quick passes and winners on the come-out. That's also part of what makes me so skeptical about this one casino in particular. I know that people here are used to seeing BS posts and will probably dismiss everything I'm saying, but like I said, whenever I played at this place it almost felt as if the machine "knew" which card to spit out to make everyone lose.
For example, when I played the Don't against heavy action on the Pass Line, a 12 would often come up. Whenever I made DC bets, the machine would pick me off and then 7-out. I even had one friend who made 4 consecutive DC bets when the right way action was heavy, and the rolls went like this: 5, 11, 10, 4, 4, 5, 10, 7. Then on the next roll when he didn't have any DC bets, it was a quick PSO. lol
And for the record, I don't base my skepticism on these examples alone. I have a sh*tload of other stories about this Indian casino as well. I do trust most Indian casinos, but not this one.
Fighting BS one post at a time!
December 7th, 2013 at 9:04:18 AM
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Please name the Indian casino.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
December 7th, 2013 at 10:12:15 AM
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Quote: HunterhillPlease name the Indian casino.
Since I have no concrete evidence of any wrongdoing (sure wish I did!), I'd rather not. But I will say that it's in California and that I once read that it's as profitable as casinos on the Strip. Gee, I wonder why?
But is their game rigged? Who the hell knows. In the absence of any hard evidence, I can't say yes. But like I said, based on what I've seen over an extended period of time, I am very, very skeptical. (Also, anyone who has read my posts knows that I'm not some BS'er who is prone to buying into stupid conspiracy theories)
Fighting BS one post at a time!
December 7th, 2013 at 11:29:31 AM
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I know some players that have strong suspicions that one California Indian casinos cheats or was at one time cheating. It was Morongo.If I remember correctly it was even mentioned in Wong's newsletter.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
December 7th, 2013 at 11:35:48 AM
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Never heard those allegations, but now you got me curious. Looks like I'll be doing some google searching. :) Anyway, I've got a different Indian casino in mind.
Fighting BS one post at a time!
December 8th, 2013 at 2:48:10 AM
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Quote: 1BBIf faced with a choice at blackjack, all things being equal, I will play ASMs for the increased hands per hour. I've been doing it for sometime and have never seen anything questionable.
My Blackjack experience with ASM's (not continuous shuffle) where the cards were put directly into play without next being hand shuffled is that the hands tend to be stiff.
Very few casinos do this.
You've been doing it for sometime.
Where have you been playing?
December 8th, 2013 at 5:58:28 PM
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Quote: TankoMy Blackjack experience with ASM's (not continuous shuffle) where the cards were put directly into play without next being hand shuffled is that the hands tend to be stiff.
Very few casinos do this.
You've been doing it for sometime.
Where have you been playing?
Some casinos use an ASM and hand-shuffle? What a waste of time and money.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
December 16th, 2013 at 9:32:54 AM
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Quote: TankoMy Blackjack experience with ASM's (not continuous shuffle) where the cards were put directly into play without next being hand shuffled is that the hands tend to be stiff.
Very few casinos do this.
You've been doing it for sometime.
Where have you been playing?
At Foxwoods, the cards go from the tower to the shoe. The cards are purchased in pre shuffled eight deck packs so changing them once a day takes very little time. With over 7 decks penetration this game is playable even with H17.
At Twin River the cards are taken from the tower and the second half of the shuffle is performed. They have the same excellent penetration as Foxwoods and there's a machine in the S17, six deck high limit pit. Pinch me!
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
