Fair Games?
My questions today are regarding the fairness of live games in various jurisdictions. While there has been much discussion regarding the fairness of video poker and video keno of all varieties, I do not recall nor could I find any discussion in this respect regarding the live games.
Are there regulations regarding the fairness of the dice, decks, etc., that are used on the tables in Nevada, Louisiana, or any other state?
Are most of you table game players out there confident that you are rolling fair dice and/or being dealt from a fair deck without any "slight of hand" by the dealer (or the shuffler)? Please include the state(s) and/or casino(s) in which you play (or avoid) table games.
My apologies if this has already been discussed or divulged - I did attempt to search for any similar topic. Thank you all for your time!
Quote: camaplThank you, Michael and all of the Administrators, for your amazing sites and for all of your time! Also, I appreciate the input from "most" others - if not informative, it's usually entertaining!
My questions today are regarding the fairness of live games in various jurisdictions. While there has been much discussion regarding the fairness of video poker and video keno of all varieties, I do not recall nor could I find any discussion in this respect regarding the live games.
Are there regulations regarding the fairness of the dice, decks, etc., that are used on the tables in Nevada, Louisiana, or any other state?
Are most of you table game players out there confident that you are rolling fair dice and/or being dealt from a fair deck without any "slight of hand" by the dealer (or the shuffler)? Please include the state(s) and/or casino(s) in which you play (or avoid) table games.
My apologies if this has already been discussed or divulged - I did attempt to search for any similar topic. Thank you all for your time!
All games in American casinos are regulated.
You can google any state Gaming Commission and see the rules and codes, etc. (New Jersey State gaming, Missouri Gaming Commission, Washington State Gambling Commission, etc.)
Enforcement is severe, and penalties harsh. Background checks are done from the lowest level dealer on up, with extensive checks for high-level managers.
Live games are fair; Internet gambling from some server in Uganda, or a former soviet sateliite, etc., well, - good luck.
If you're paranoid about it, then, that's the whole thing about live gaming! The house had BETTER keep the game fair for its own protection.
I don't understand how anyone can trust anything that results from an electronic Random Number Generator (RNG).
Did you know that there is no such thing as "Random"... it is impossible to actually program it, so they do their best by simulating random in the software.
Nearly all modern slot machines work this way. I bet there's a lot of players who, if they knew this...
that slot machine reels are NOT random number generators any more, they're DIGITAL DISPLAY UNITS, slowly spinning down to a combination that was already programatically selected before they started spinning,
... they wouldn't play any more.
The best of both worlds is to start with a LIVE event, such as a dice roll, and then let people book their bets against the outcome, but do it using electronic systems that ensure safety and they also ensure that any odds calculations performed are "FAIR" as well. They can't cheat in that part of the electronics (the pay-out mechanism), or if they did, it would be real easy to catch and prove, (see above).
What is needed is a way to plug LIVE GAMMING into slot machines and other forms of entertainment.
Quote: Fuengirola2About slots and RNGs: That's why I always hook up the autoplay and do something reasonable while the autoplayer is earning me some money! Make food, watch a movie, go to sauna... then, occassionally, just check how much I have already won, or trigger the free spins/bonus game.
What "autoplay"? What do you "hook" it to?
Quote: discflickerWhat "autoplay"? What do you "hook" it to?
Fuengirola2 has posted some pics from some online play he does
Quote: discflicker
I don't understand how anyone can trust anything that results from an electronic Random Number Generator (RNG).
Did you know that there is no such thing as "Random"... it is impossible to actually program it, so they do their best by simulating random in the software.
Nearly all modern slot machines work this way. I bet there's a lot of players who, if they knew this...
While what you're saying is technically true, you have only to look to your own signature for the truth that matters.
Sure, RNG code only generates pseudo random numbers but how random is really necessary? If every second the RNG is being seeded by a new number, say the modulo of the current UNIX timestamp and the developers favorite niece's birthday how could anyone exploit this fact? It's not like there are magic jackpot hitting numbers that are being excluded by these PRNGs, so I think if most slot players knew what we were talking about it would just generate the kind of ridiculous myths that people came up with when they found out some shufflers have OCR built into them.
Quote: discflickerDid you know that there is no such thing as "Random"... it is impossible to actually program it, so they do their best by simulating random in the software.
Nearly all modern slot machines work this way. I bet there's a lot of players who, if they knew this...
that slot machine reels are NOT random number generators any more, they're DIGITAL DISPLAY UNITS, slowly spinning down to a combination that was already programatically selected before they started spinning,
... they wouldn't play any more.
The best of both worlds is to start with a LIVE event, such as a dice roll, and then let people book their bets against the outcome, but do it using electronic systems that ensure safety and they also ensure that any odds calculations performed are "FAIR" as well. They can't cheat in that part of the electronics (the pay-out mechanism), or if they did, it would be real easy to catch and prove, (see above).
No slot player wants to see 10 dice rolling every time they spin the reels, and no casino will accept the slowdown and mechanical fragility of such a system. Slot games have been operated by RNG-controlled stepper motors since the 1980s...
Quote: MonkeyMonkeyWhile what you're saying is technically true, you have only to look to your own signature for the truth that matters.
Sure, RNG code only generates pseudo random numbers but how random is really necessary? If every second the RNG is being seeded by a new number, say the modulo of the current UNIX timestamp and the developers favorite niece's birthday how could anyone exploit this fact? It's not like there are magic jackpot hitting numbers that are being excluded by these PRNGs, so I think if most slot players knew what we were talking about it would just generate the kind of ridiculous myths that people came up with when they found out some shufflers have OCR built into them.
I know that. We were talking about introducing NON-RANDOMIZATION in the way of CHEATING by providing a pseudo-pseudo-RND that aint nothin but a scam.
I was trying to voice it from the point-of-view of the average Joe not even knowing how it works since the 1980s as MathEx points out, however, in all cases, LIVE gaming eliminates this (the point as it applies to this thread).
Now we just need to adress MathEx's concearn about the live implementation, and I say its easily possible.
Wouldnt it be like totally cool to play, and I am making this up as I go along now, SNAP_VISION... See my reply to MathEx.
Thanks for your reply, Monkey
Quote: MathExtremistNo slot player wants to see 10 dice rolling every time they spin the reels, and no casino will accept the slowdown and mechanical fragility of such a system. Slot games have been operated by RNG-controlled stepper motors since the 1980s...
HEY MATH!!
How's it goin'?
Guess what?
Remember you saying my two patents would never be approved?
BOTH of them were fully approved last year. Your exact argument about why my RollStation would NOT be approved was the EXACT reason we were able to make a slight change and then re-submit it.
So, MathEx, YOU HELPED ME IN A TREMENDOUS WAY and I want to thank you for it!! I want to thank you for your tireless commitment to this BB, BTW, you always provide the right answers and to-the-point as well.
SNAP-ROLL, I'm making this up right now as I go along:
(I got the visualization for this from MathEx's comment "... player wants to see 10 dice rolling every time they spin the reels", just now)
A LIVE craps table has random timing as to when the thrower shoots, and a LIVE roulette table is the same. In both cases, if these were being used in a game of SuffleMaster RapidCraps or RapidRoulette, the system knows about 2 seconds before the roll/spin is completed that it will occur. There is a 2 second time-window of knowing a randomization event will definitely occur in real-time (I know there might be a few failures, like dice thrown off the table).
OK?
Next, lets get 1,000 separate craps/roulette tables all being monitored at the same time (all in REAL-TIME) by a centralized system. The odds are very good that overall, a STEADY FLOW LIVE RANDOMIZATIONS can be obtained. It will all be real; it will all be real live randomization events, each one occurs wherein the wager is made BEFORE the fact, not after, like video dog-racing.
The SNAP_ROLL is just another randomization input device to a RollStation just like a live roulette table, or a live roulette table spin being mapped into a dice randomization input, or an actual RNG, OR NOW IT CAN ALSO BE A SNAP_ROLL:
As the stream of live randomization events arrive, they individually SNAP into each of the reel positions and a set of live video feeds displays this as SNAPSHOTS of these events as they occur in REAL-TIME, one reel after the next.
The player, instead of seeing a set of video dice sprayed out for each number, he sees live video-feeds of events all over the world in REAL-TIME, making up his randomization inputs.
IT WILL BE AS FAST AS SLOT MACHINE REELS, EASILY and true live gaming, yet safe and secure. The best of both worlds. I believe I now hold the patent that makes this possible, THANKS TO YOU, MATH EXPERT!!
Comments?
I would venture to say that the general consensus regarding live games is that they are fair... Why would the casinos risk bad PR by throwing a game that they are already winning? That is the question! Yet there exist some casinos that use machines to do just that by employing pull tabs, Type III's, (are those the same thing?) etc. Do these casinos get bad press? Perhaps anyone who reads forums like this one, such as casual players who want to lose less or advantage players, would know what to look for. Are these casinos empty? Doubtful since the U.S. is potentially littered with them (on reservation land, for example). I do not doubt that they are constantly being fed bill after bill by the masses who will not or cannot venture to Nevada or Louisiana on a regular basis. ...Or who just do not know better and/or will not take the gumption to find out!
Food for thought... So, if the management of a casino will employ pull-tabs (legally) and still has plenty of business to keep the doors open, what is to keep them from utilizing less than fair methods during live games? Would this soil the reputation any more than the machines already have?
Also, are there statutes that govern live games and machines separately? By the way, I did follow each of the links provided by Paigowdan (thank you!); however, I have yet to view any specific legislation regarding fairness of any type of game. When I have a little more time, I will pursue that further.
Quote: discflickerNext, lets get 1,000 separate craps/roulette tables all being monitored at the same time (all in REAL-TIME) by a centralized system. The odds are very good that overall, a STEADY FLOW LIVE RANDOMIZATIONS can be obtained.
...
IT WILL BE AS FAST AS SLOT MACHINE REELS, EASILY and true live gaming, yet safe and secure.
You should calculate the bit rate of your proposed RNG because you're off by many orders of magnitude. How many slot machines do you think you could hook up to 1000 craps tables and support the non-stop gameplay players have come to expect? Here's a hint: the answer has two digits.
I'm gonna start a new blog named SnapRoll.
My bottom line input on this thread is just that I trust live gaming over RNG and there are solid reasons for players to demand it. I think that's why they stll have live gaming in the first place, not as a fallback in case of a global power-outage.
I SUPPOSE EVERYONE IS 100% CONFIDENT WITH ELECTONIC BALLOTING AS WELL, EH?
