camapl
camapl
Joined: Jun 22, 2010
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February 12th, 2013 at 5:40:22 PM permalink
Thank you, Michael and all of the Administrators, for your amazing sites and for all of your time! Also, I appreciate the input from "most" others - if not informative, it's usually entertaining!

My questions today are regarding the fairness of live games in various jurisdictions. While there has been much discussion regarding the fairness of video poker and video keno of all varieties, I do not recall nor could I find any discussion in this respect regarding the live games.

Are there regulations regarding the fairness of the dice, decks, etc., that are used on the tables in Nevada, Louisiana, or any other state?

Are most of you table game players out there confident that you are rolling fair dice and/or being dealt from a fair deck without any "slight of hand" by the dealer (or the shuffler)? Please include the state(s) and/or casino(s) in which you play (or avoid) table games.

My apologies if this has already been discussed or divulged - I did attempt to search for any similar topic. Thank you all for your time!
* Actual results may vary.
Fuengirola2
Fuengirola2
Joined: Jan 18, 2013
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February 12th, 2013 at 5:43:36 PM permalink
Using a non-fair dice would be a costly thing for a casino. Just like a biased Roulette wheel.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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February 12th, 2013 at 6:01:12 PM permalink
Quote: camapl

Thank you, Michael and all of the Administrators, for your amazing sites and for all of your time! Also, I appreciate the input from "most" others - if not informative, it's usually entertaining!

My questions today are regarding the fairness of live games in various jurisdictions. While there has been much discussion regarding the fairness of video poker and video keno of all varieties, I do not recall nor could I find any discussion in this respect regarding the live games.

Are there regulations regarding the fairness of the dice, decks, etc., that are used on the tables in Nevada, Louisiana, or any other state?

Are most of you table game players out there confident that you are rolling fair dice and/or being dealt from a fair deck without any "slight of hand" by the dealer (or the shuffler)? Please include the state(s) and/or casino(s) in which you play (or avoid) table games.

My apologies if this has already been discussed or divulged - I did attempt to search for any similar topic. Thank you all for your time!


All games in American casinos are regulated.
You can google any state Gaming Commission and see the rules and codes, etc. (New Jersey State gaming, Missouri Gaming Commission, Washington State Gambling Commission, etc.)
Enforcement is severe, and penalties harsh. Background checks are done from the lowest level dealer on up, with extensive checks for high-level managers.

Live games are fair; Internet gambling from some server in Uganda, or a former soviet sateliite, etc., well, - good luck.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
discflicker
discflicker
Joined: Jan 1, 2011
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February 12th, 2013 at 6:30:57 PM permalink
To answer your question, if its done right, the house has no need to cheat... why rock the boat when you already got a good thing going? It's better for a casino to keep a clean reputation than get away with scamming it's own customers here and there.

If you're paranoid about it, then, that's the whole thing about live gaming! The house had BETTER keep the game fair for its own protection.

I don't understand how anyone can trust anything that results from an electronic Random Number Generator (RNG).

Did you know that there is no such thing as "Random"... it is impossible to actually program it, so they do their best by simulating random in the software.
Nearly all modern slot machines work this way. I bet there's a lot of players who, if they knew this...

that slot machine reels are NOT random number generators any more, they're DIGITAL DISPLAY UNITS, slowly spinning down to a combination that was already programatically selected before they started spinning,

... they wouldn't play any more.

The best of both worlds is to start with a LIVE event, such as a dice roll, and then let people book their bets against the outcome, but do it using electronic systems that ensure safety and they also ensure that any odds calculations performed are "FAIR" as well. They can't cheat in that part of the electronics (the pay-out mechanism), or if they did, it would be real easy to catch and prove, (see above).

What is needed is a way to plug LIVE GAMMING into slot machines and other forms of entertainment.
The difference between zero and the smallest possible number? It doesn't matter; once you cross that edge, it might as well be the difference between zero and 1. The difference between infinity and reality? They are mutually exclusive.
Fuengirola2
Fuengirola2
Joined: Jan 18, 2013
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February 12th, 2013 at 6:34:09 PM permalink
About slots and RNGs: That's why I always hook up the autoplay and do something reasonable while the autoplayer is earning me some money! Make food, watch a movie, go to sauna... then, occassionally, just check how much I have already won, or trigger the free spins/bonus game.
discflicker
discflicker
Joined: Jan 1, 2011
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February 12th, 2013 at 6:42:54 PM permalink
Quote: Fuengirola2

About slots and RNGs: That's why I always hook up the autoplay and do something reasonable while the autoplayer is earning me some money! Make food, watch a movie, go to sauna... then, occassionally, just check how much I have already won, or trigger the free spins/bonus game.



What "autoplay"? What do you "hook" it to?
The difference between zero and the smallest possible number? It doesn't matter; once you cross that edge, it might as well be the difference between zero and 1. The difference between infinity and reality? They are mutually exclusive.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
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February 13th, 2013 at 12:15:17 AM permalink
Quote: discflicker

What "autoplay"? What do you "hook" it to?



Fuengirola2 has posted some pics from some online play he does
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
MonkeyMonkey
MonkeyMonkey
Joined: May 1, 2012
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February 13th, 2013 at 1:43:06 AM permalink
Quote: discflicker


I don't understand how anyone can trust anything that results from an electronic Random Number Generator (RNG).

Did you know that there is no such thing as "Random"... it is impossible to actually program it, so they do their best by simulating random in the software.
Nearly all modern slot machines work this way. I bet there's a lot of players who, if they knew this...



While what you're saying is technically true, you have only to look to your own signature for the truth that matters.

Sure, RNG code only generates pseudo random numbers but how random is really necessary? If every second the RNG is being seeded by a new number, say the modulo of the current UNIX timestamp and the developers favorite niece's birthday how could anyone exploit this fact? It's not like there are magic jackpot hitting numbers that are being excluded by these PRNGs, so I think if most slot players knew what we were talking about it would just generate the kind of ridiculous myths that people came up with when they found out some shufflers have OCR built into them.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
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February 13th, 2013 at 9:59:50 AM permalink
Quote: discflicker

Did you know that there is no such thing as "Random"... it is impossible to actually program it, so they do their best by simulating random in the software.
Nearly all modern slot machines work this way. I bet there's a lot of players who, if they knew this...

that slot machine reels are NOT random number generators any more, they're DIGITAL DISPLAY UNITS, slowly spinning down to a combination that was already programatically selected before they started spinning,

... they wouldn't play any more.

The best of both worlds is to start with a LIVE event, such as a dice roll, and then let people book their bets against the outcome, but do it using electronic systems that ensure safety and they also ensure that any odds calculations performed are "FAIR" as well. They can't cheat in that part of the electronics (the pay-out mechanism), or if they did, it would be real easy to catch and prove, (see above).


No slot player wants to see 10 dice rolling every time they spin the reels, and no casino will accept the slowdown and mechanical fragility of such a system. Slot games have been operated by RNG-controlled stepper motors since the 1980s...
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
discflicker
discflicker
Joined: Jan 1, 2011
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February 13th, 2013 at 6:46:06 PM permalink
Quote: MonkeyMonkey

While what you're saying is technically true, you have only to look to your own signature for the truth that matters.

Sure, RNG code only generates pseudo random numbers but how random is really necessary? If every second the RNG is being seeded by a new number, say the modulo of the current UNIX timestamp and the developers favorite niece's birthday how could anyone exploit this fact? It's not like there are magic jackpot hitting numbers that are being excluded by these PRNGs, so I think if most slot players knew what we were talking about it would just generate the kind of ridiculous myths that people came up with when they found out some shufflers have OCR built into them.



I know that. We were talking about introducing NON-RANDOMIZATION in the way of CHEATING by providing a pseudo-pseudo-RND that aint nothin but a scam.

I was trying to voice it from the point-of-view of the average Joe not even knowing how it works since the 1980s as MathEx points out, however, in all cases, LIVE gaming eliminates this (the point as it applies to this thread).

Now we just need to adress MathEx's concearn about the live implementation, and I say its easily possible.

Wouldnt it be like totally cool to play, and I am making this up as I go along now, SNAP_VISION... See my reply to MathEx.

Thanks for your reply, Monkey
The difference between zero and the smallest possible number? It doesn't matter; once you cross that edge, it might as well be the difference between zero and 1. The difference between infinity and reality? They are mutually exclusive.

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