Is Mexico dangerous place to visit?

I am usually frustrated arguing this position. So here is a list provided without commentary. The poll is regarding Americans visiting Mexico. It is not about Mexican citizens.

State Department Deaths of US Citizens in Mexico lists 280 Americans that died in Mexico in 2010, here is the breakdown by cause

4 Execution
107 Homicide
2 Drug-Related
18 Suicide
32 Drowning
5 Air Accident
14 Vehicle Accident - Motorcycle
64 Vehicle Accident - Auto
4 Vehicle Accident - Bus
2 Vehicle Accident - Other
2 Vehicle Accident - Pedestrian
25 Other Accident
279

Here is the full listing of the locations of the 111 homicides and executions of Americans in Mexico in 2010 with running total
39 , Chihuahua , 39 (almost all in Ciudad Juarez)
28 , Baja California , 67 (6 Rosarito, 1 San Felipe, 1 Ensenada, 2 not specified, rest in Mexicali or Tijuana)
9 , Sonora , 76
8 , Tamaulipas , 84
1 , Coahuila , 85
1 , Nuevo Leon , 86
-------
End of Border States
-------
4 , Federal District , 90
2 , Durango , 92
8 , Jalisco , 100 (Guadalajara)
1 , Guanajuato ,101
2 , Guerrero , 103 (Acapulco)
1 , Michoacan , 104
1 , Morelos , 105
1 , Oaxaca , 106
3 , Nayarit , 109 (near Puerto Vallarta)
1 , Sinaloa , 110
1 , Quintana Roo , 111 (Cancun)

As your research shows, it's foolish to make any generalizations. I visit Cozumel every week, which is a very safe and prosperous resort city--far removed from any drug violence. Yet I'm sure they have their share of crime too, just like everywhere.

People from other countries might ask if the US is safe to visit, and you could legitimately answer "no"--but that's useless without clarification. Visiting Chicago is probably going to be a whole lot safer than visiting East St. Louis.

I would have voted for "Only if you ARE involved with drugs," if it were a choice. Everyone told me I was nuts when I sent to San Felipe, which I see makes the list, two years ago for spring break. The place had the police and the military everywhere. Personally, I didn't have a single problem. I have no statistics to prove it but I think if an American stuck to the touristy places his odds of anything happening would be quite remote.

Is that one poll question phrased "Only if you are NOT involved in drugs" the way you wanted it? Seems like an odd way to put it. I guess I would have been consistent with the prostitute question, but maybe you did that on purpose. * If you are involved in drugs.

I think if you keep your nose clean and stay out of the shithole places(as with places here in the states too) then you should be ok.

We went to Sinaloa and Chihuhua two-and-a-half years ago. This was before the whole scare had blown up, so to speak. That's not to say the drug war wasn't going on (there were posters up for a suspect of a wedding massacre in one of the towns), but it was not publicized in the American media yet. We walked home from a bar to our hotel as a gunfight was going on one street over. The next morning, we came back and saw bullet holes in a window of a shop we were in the day before. I think anyone would find that pretty scary. It was a tourist town, but even the locals were terrified. The "Federales" did not make me feel very safe, even though they were everywhere.

The next day I walked through Chihuahua city (including some non-touristy areas) by myself. In retrospect, this was probably unwise, but I didn't have any problems.

Like most tourist "scares," stuff is overblown, but that doesn't mean stuff isn't happening.

I'm amazed that 18 americans killed themselves in mexico in one year.

I think that for even a first-step analysis, one would need to know such things as how many Americans visit Mexico in a year, how long they stay, and how the deaths per (equivalent) year per 100,000 compares to the rate of deaths from non-natural causes for American's at home. If the sole piece of data I had to look at was the number of people who die of non-natural causes in a year in California, I might wonder whether that was a very dangerous place to visit. More info is needed to develop a proper opinion.

I agree with Doc, that the raw numbers need to be put into context, but my feeling is that Mexico is dangerous. How many other countries actually have a separate category for "Execution"?

As a point of comparison, how many "Executions" and "Homicides" of American's occurred in Canada during the same period?

There are a good many Americans who die in America in "touristy areas" and whose deaths are categorized as "missing person" or "suicide" or "accidental death" or something else that does not overly alarm the local chamber of commerce.

Mexico has quite a few touristy areas and police chiefs in Mexico tend to be very polite and not offend their local chambers of commerce or the Minister of Tourism.

Its nice to have "numbers" but sometimes one must look beyond authoritative reports and determine just how accurate the information is. A good many tourists go to Mexico, most come back unharmed.

Danger is everywhere. It strikes without regard to various innocent assumptions. Natalee Holloway in Aruba was an experienced traveler and was one of the more sober women in Carlos 'n Charlies that night. One woman in a Sacramento casino was around bright lights and zillions of cameras, but she got a date rape drug in her drink and so far her corpse has not been found. Its isn't always dimly lit low dives where the danger is greatest.

Sometimes hotel staff witness a departure from a room and think the "coast is clear" but there can be an unexpectedly prompt return and if so a thief will want to avoid capture no matter what the cost. In Mexico, the local police decided that a Canadian woman came to be murdered in her hotel room by some unknown enemy who had followed her from Canada through three airports, three passport control checkpoints and through the camera-riddled hotel lobby to kill her in Mexico. With crime reports like that, does it really matter too much what the official numbers are?

Mexico may or may not be more dangerous overall than some places, but when reports go on about soldiers moving into an area, wouldn't that be equivalent to our National Guard converging on a small town? It's not something I've heard about recently anyway.

I'm not going to say the U.S. doesn't have some serious crime incidents with multiple killings though because we do.

Mexico is only dangerous if you have something somebody wants, and are in a place where they can take it. I used to go there all the time when I lived in SoCal in the late 70's early 80's, but even then you could see it was getting bad. I wouldn't go there now for anything.

Oh, it's a very dangerous place. I've been killed twice already :P

Quote: rxwine

equivalent to our National Guard converging on a small town?

Not really. Our National Guard is likely to be more restrained. And anything that happens is likely to make the TV news. Not so in Mexico. Remember Kent State? It was mainly the white kids that were unafraid of the National Guard troops. When the National Guard were also sent to a black college, the kids there knew better than to be in rifle range.

Consider our movie featuring Marlon Brando at a motorcycleclub president. It depicted an entire town being taken over by motorcycle gangs. It wasn't all that unknown in California at the time to sever phone lines and isolate a town. Or to have riots that had to simply run their course because help was not available. Bad Day At Black Rock is considered one of Hollywood's Asian movies even though no Asian appears in the film but it was not unknown for things like that to happen to strangers in small towns both from the cops and from the local toughs who considered solitary strangers to be fit targets of amusement for the entire boxing club or pool hall crowd. Things did not always go in this country as the history books would have us believe.

Quote: Wizard

I would have voted for "Only if you ARE involved with drugs," if it were a choice. Everyone told me I was nuts when I sent to San Felipe, which I see makes the list, two years ago for spring break. The place had the police and the military everywhere. Personally, I didn't have a single problem. I have no statistics to prove it but I think if an American stuck to the touristy places his odds of anything happening would be quite remote.

That was stupid of me. I did mean to say "Only if you ARE involved with drugs". So I really screwed up the poll.

The list of Americans who died abroad does not pretend to have any statistical analysis. It is not based on numbers of visitors, or what they were doing. The homicides are not explained, but there are only 4 people around the world listed as being "executed".

A total of 782 Americans died in countries other than Mexico in 2010. That includes 21 who died in the earthquake in Haiti, and 17 who died of "terrorist action" in Afghanistan and Iraq (not military). There were 115 suicides other than Mexico. A total of 40% of the deaths were in some vehicle accident (car, bus, motorcycle, train boat, plane, etc.).

There were no murders out of the 15 people who died in Canada.

A total of 111 were homicide or execution victims in Mexico vs. 112 in the rest of the world. It used to be much worse. About 15 years ago they would advertise that one American per day died on average in Baja California.

It is true that Ciudad Juarez ranks with Detroit and New Orleans as some of the most violent cities in North America. Consistent with that ranking, most homicide victims that are American die in that city. It is also true that most Americans die in the border cities because that's where the bulk of the Americans go.

But I don't think about the 400 some murder victims when I go to NYC. I don't avoid Los Angeles because of the murders there. There are over 17K murders in this country. I probably wouldn't visit East St. Louis.

It is true that on rare occasion you do read about someone who was totally innocent that gets caught in cross fire in Mexico, but I read a lot of stories about people who die in the USA in some completely random fashion.

So without any real statistics to go on, I have this belief that a handful of American citizens are killed in Mexico every year who are not engaged in any criminal activity themselves. The fact that Mexico accounts for half the homicides of Americans abroad has more to do with that is where the drug trade is.

I actually got to the point that I was walking around in empty dark neighborhoods (usually commercial) in Tijuana at night to prove a point. Nobody ever bothered me. Now I wouldn't do that in the Zona Norte or some of the slums. But I would get nervous in the bombed out neighborhoods of North Philadelphia at night.

But no matter what I say, I meet people who tell me that they would never go to San Felipe, Rosarito Beach or Veracruz. They are shocked that I would go to Tijuana for dinner.

Quote: pacomartin

They are shocked that I would go to Tijuana for dinner.

From the pic that I saw, you look Latino, why would they be shocked? I used to go to Tijuana all the time 30 years ago. Not anymore, I'm just an old white guy & I really don't fit in there.

snipped most

Quote: pacomartin

I actually got to the point that I was walking around in empty dark neighborhoods (usually commercial) in Tijuana at night to prove a point. Nobody ever bothered me.

You got huevos..glad you're still around with us.

I'd say it depends on where you are but it is mostly dangerous. Cozumel and Cancun are both not on a direct drug route looking at a map and they are kind of "lines-in-the-sand" for the Mexican Governmnet. If Cancun becomes dangerous there goes ALL of Mexico's tourist trade. Tiajuana is already a lost cause and most Americans will not come near it--Mexicans are leaving it.

I think there is a small chance the US Military will have to come in someday,

.....

Quote: Nareed

Oh, it's a very dangerous place. I've been killed twice already :P

I hope you get better.

Quote: Nareed

Oh, it's a very dangerous place. I've been killed twice already :P

That must really drive the crime rate up. One wonders however about the American tourists who wear a wrist watch and have a motor scooter come up beside them, a machete weilding passenger chops his hand off to steal the watch and they ride off. That is not a homicide but it can put a heck of dent in the quality of life statistics. Yet such incidents often do not get recorded.

So I often wonder if homicide stats truly indicate danger. After all, Natalee Holloway is still listed as "missing". So too are Jimmy Hoffa and Judge Crater.

Danger lurks everywhere and after working up an analysis of your foreign and domestic travels and the official and unofficial crime rates, be sure not to trip and fall down a flight of stairs in your own home. Or get mugged going out to your mailbox. Or electrocute yourself while plugging your computer back into the wall. These things all happen and they happen in both Mexico and the USA.

Quote: EvenBob

From the pic that I saw, you look Latino, why would they be shocked? I used to go to Tijuana all the time 30 years ago. Not anymore, I'm just an old white guy & I really don't fit in there.

I'm only 25% Spanish. Spaniards are pretty white in Mexico since most Mexican's are "mixed people", from Spanish and indigenous ancestry. But the point is that most of the violence in Mexico is not racially based. It is a byproduct of the cartels who make their money in drugs, kidnapping, and prostitution. The most common victims are Mexicans since it is considered not good business to rile up the American consulate.

You could be earmarked for being white, but more likely if you are white and drive a Range Rover.

Ciudad Juarez is often cited as the most violent place in the Western Hemisphere, but without firm numbers it is difficult to say if it is worse than Detroit. It does look like young women are the target of one or more serial killers. But it is really ground zero for the drug trade. It is the most common place for an American homicide.

Worldwide American Deaths 2010(Natural causes not included)

219	21%	Homicide (107 in Mexico)
4	0%	Execution (4 in Mexico)
29	3%	Drug Related
17	2%	Terrorist Action (Afghanistan & Iraq)
133	13%	Suicide
125	12%	Disaster (121 in Haiti)
113	11%	Drowning
422	40%	Accidents Transportation

Locations of Homicides in Mexico

39	Chihuahua (mostly Ciudad Juarez)
28	Baja California (12 TJ, 6 Rosarito)
9	Sonora (near border)
8	Tamaulipas (near border)
1	Coahuila (near border)
1	Nuevo Leon (near Monterrey)
4	Distrito Federal
2	Durango
1	Guanajuato
2	Guerrero (near Acapulco)
8	Jalisco
1	Michoacan
1	Morelos
3	Nayarit
1	Sinaloa
1	Quintana Roo (Cancun)
1	Oaxaca

The one American who died in Oaxaca last year seems to be a counter-example. A 46 year old real estate developer who was killed with a machete for an unknown reason.


Oaxaca (South of Mexico City) is distant from the drug trade. It is kind of ironic, because it is here that the Western world was largely introduced to the world of hallucinogens. R. Gordon Wasson (a 60 year old New York V.P. of JP Morgan of all things) launched the “psychedelic revolution” with his Life magazine article of 13 May 1957, in which he publicized his experience on the nights of 29-30 June, 1955, in the remote Oaxacan village of Huautla de Jiménez with the Mazatec curandera or shaman María Sabina. The article was the first to use the term “magic mushroom,” which was probably invented by the magazine’s editor.

María Sabina is almost always pictured smoking what looks like a joint. Actually she only smoked tobacco. The drug she used for her spiritual journeys was always mushrooms and she did not smoke any pot. She briefly became a celebrity who traveled around the world and met the new generation of rock singers in the early 1960's. Of course, she had no idea what she had unleashed by entertaining that banker. Hallucinogens were never taken recreationaly by her people, they were always part of their religious ceremonies.

I'm actually not completely clear on this: Does classifying a death as "Drug related" suggest that it involved smuggling or involved an overdose?

There is really no such thing as an overdose of heroin. Most such deaths are hypersensitivity reactions to contaminants.

I think the drug related deaths meant they died of acute lead poisoning in an area known for buying drugs.

Quote: Doc

I'm actually not completely clear on this: Does classifying a death as "Drug related" suggest that it involved smuggling or involved an overdose?

The State Department is required by law to make this report. But clearly they are just trying to meet the letter of the law. They don't seem to want to provide any details or analysis. Even by the standards of a simple database they are not even careful about uniform categories. Since there is a date associated with each death they don't seem to want to get into any fights with relatives of the deceased, so they use these broad categories.

There is no explanations of the categories. I suppose that some of the 6K or so "natural deaths" per year probably have some homicides or suicides in them. Here are the categories without combining any of them. The "Disaster" is mostly the Haiti earthquake.

Cause	World 8 years	Mexico	Canada
Grand Total	6,481	1789	110
Homicide	1,135	438	5
Execution	18	16
Drug-Related	182	36	3
Suicide	810	144	14
Terrorist Action	264
Drowning	718	215	9
Drowning - Bay	1
Drowning - Beach	20	4	1
Drowning - Bridge	1
Drowning - canal	1	1
Drowning - Lake	6		5
Drowning - Ocean	34	8
Drowning - Pool	9	5
Drowning - River	10	1
Drowning - Sea	1
Disaster	158	1
Vehicle Accident - Auto	1,462	583	26
Vehicle Accident - Motorcycle	263	77	5
Air Accident	226	27	10
Maritime Accident	67	10	1
Other Accident	804	152	25
Vehicle Accident - Bus	86	21
Vehicle Accident - Other	62	11	4
Vehicle Accident - Pedestrian	108	38	2
Vehicle Accident - Train	13
Other Accident - Fall	8	1
Other Accident - Hiking	1
Other Accident - Mountian climbing	2
Other Accident - Rafting	1
Train Accident	8
Under Investigation	1
Unknown	1

Quote: FleaStiff

There is really no such thing as an overdose of heroin. Most such deaths are hypersensitivity reactions to contaminants.

I think the drug related deaths meant they died of acute lead poisoning in an area known for buying drugs.

There absolutely is such a thing as an overdose of heroin. Enough will make you stop breathing. You don't live too long without breathing.

Granted, there are "bad neighborhoods" in all major cities. However, the ones who are the most familiar with the places to avoid, and therefore, the most likely to feel, "safe" because they are avoiding those areas, are the locals.

When you ask the question to folks who don't know the barrio from the bar district, they can only rely on the information they have been exposed to. In Mexico's case, sensational news coverage of shootouts, beheadings and police station bombings. Unless I have been informed by a trusted source where it is "safe", I have a hard time feeling comfortable in an unfamiliar town/city/country.

In the case of Las Vegas, there are some neighborhoods that should be avoided by tourists. Unknowingly, I have cut through a few of them late at night on foot, or turned off the freeway into them in my car, due to crummy GPS coordinates. I found out later that my property, and possibly my life were at risk, and now would not go through them. However, I also know that there are many "safe" places in Las Vegas, where I can feel secure, and can recommend them to others.

I don't have the same local knowledge about Mexico. I don't know the "safe" and "unsafe" areas, even in or adjacent to the tourist areas. All areas would have to be considered "unsafe" unless vouched for by a trusted source. It is unfortunate, but it is easier to write off the whole country than go through the trouble of learning where to stay, and where to avoid.

Quote: Ayecarumba

Unless I have been informed by a trusted source where it is "safe", I have a hard time feeling comfortable in an unfamiliar town/city/country.

25 August 2011 Last updated at 21:02 ET
Deadly attack on casino in Monterrey, Mexico
In broad daylight.
At least 20 people have been killed and eight injured in an attack on a casino in the northern Mexican city of Monterrey.
Armed men broke into the building and set it alight, but it is not clear whether the fire was caused by grenades, or an arson attack.
bbc

Quote: SOOPOO

There absolutely is such a thing as an overdose of heroin. Enough will make you stop breathing. You don't live too long without breathing.

This is straying off topic but let me say that it takes alot of heroin to kill. Most of these "suddenly strong heroin" deaths are strange. Twenty addicts in a shooting gallery, all share the same two or three suppliers, some share needles, all the suppliers get their junk from the same upstream source ... yet One Addict dies "of an overdose" the others don't even get sick, much less die. Would you swallow that guff if it was rich white republican women at an afternoon tea eating lady fingers?

Quote: FleaStiff

Would you swallow that guff if it was rich white republican women at an afternoon tea eating lady fingers?

That depends on how many ladyfingers and who made them.

Quote: FleaStiff

This is straying off topic but let me say that it takes alot of heroin to kill. Most of these "suddenly strong heroin" deaths are strange. Twenty addicts in a shooting gallery, all share the same two or three suppliers, some share needles, all the suppliers get their junk from the same upstream source ... yet One Addict dies "of an overdose" the others don't even get sick, much less die. Would you swallow that guff if it was rich white republican women at an afternoon tea eating lady fingers?

The whole environment as a "control" sounds pretty shaky for asserting much of anything, including the case for being hard to overdose on heroin.

Quote: SanchoPanza

25 August 2011 Last updated at 21:02 ET
Deadly attack on casino in Monterrey, Mexico
In broad daylight.
At least 20 people have been killed and eight injured in an attack on a casino in the northern Mexican city of Monterrey.
Armed men broke into the building and set it alight, but it is not clear whether the fire was caused by grenades, or an arson attack.
bbc

Not sure of the final number, but one I just read said 45 dead.

Quote: rxwine

Not sure of the final number, but one I just read said 45 dead.

Latest count from 8 minutes ago is 53 dead and dozens injured. Brutal act. Monterrey is normally one of the more peaceful cities.

You can have several acts of violence. Once in awhile though, something just flips a switch and people decide enough of that shit.

Don't know when that will happen, or if it will happen here though. Or if the conditions are adequate for such a thing.

Quote: rxwine

You can have several acts of violence. Once in awhile though, something just flips a switch and people decide enough of that shit.

Don't know when that will happen, or if it will happen here though. Or if the conditions are adequate for such a thing.

It takes a lot to get over the fear. Most civilians are unarmed in Mexico, and the gangsters make sure they torture their victims and deface the bodies so that people remain afraid.

The publisher of Zeta Tijuana has said that if he had his life to live over he wouldn't publish this newspaper. It stood up to the government corruption, but the personal cost in terror and seeing his friends murdered was too high. However, at this point he has published it for so many years, that if he stopped and let his bodyguards go, he would still be murdered.

Quote: Nareed

Oh, it's a very dangerous place. I've been killed twice already :P

So, after being killed the first time, you actually went back? Everyone who is blessed with multiple lives, please feel free to go there.

Quote: dm

So, after being killed the first time, you actually went back?

No. after being kileld I found out I still lived there (dont' ask me, I was surprised too)

Quote:

Everyone who is blessed with multiple lives, please feel free to go there.

Multiple lives are becoming a requirement these days.

Just read where a casino down there was shot up by drug cartel and set on fire. Right during the middle of the day. At least 53 killed. If Nareed was one of those consider it 52.

Texas Family Killed in the state of Veracruz.

Three of the seven victims of a highway attack this week in the Mexican state of Veracruz were American citizens, officials said. A mother and her two daughters, dual Mexican-U.S. citizens who lived in Fort Worth, Texas, were aboard one of three buses that were attacked by gunmen in the city of Panuco (330 miles from Brownsville TX), in the northern part of Veracruz. The Americans were Maria Sanchez Hernandez, 39, and her two daughters, Karla, 19, and Cristina, 13.

The family was visiting relatives for Christmas.