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Wizard
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July 11th, 2012 at 7:53:28 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

In Spanish the phoneme "PH" doesn't exist. You see it in foreign brand names, like Philips, but it's not used in Spanish words.



Thanks, I always welcome corrections to my orthography.
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pacomartin
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July 11th, 2012 at 7:57:46 AM permalink


It's interesting than when I google search orthographic projection, I get dozens of images like the one above. These kind of drawings are the principal use of the word "orthographic" in English. Of course, we are very used to the word in mathematics, but those are not the images that show up in a google search.


When I google search ortografía proyecta I get almost no equivalent images. Instead I get a lot of images associated with spelling.


It is as if the word has the same meanings in both languages, but English primarily uses it for one meaning (right angles), while Spanish primarily uses it for another meaning (proper representation of a spoken language as a written language).
Nareed
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July 11th, 2012 at 8:35:05 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thanks, I always welcome corrections to my orthography.



There's some controversy on whether "SH" is proper Spanish, too. I don't think any Spanish words use it, but it can be seen in brand names and proper names. And when you shush someone you do say "Shh!"

But "PH" definitely isnt'. In words that are about the same in English and Spanish, the "F" is used instead, for example:

Photography = Fotografía
Seismograph = Sismógrafo
Electroencephalograpgh= Electoencefalografía

And so on...
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pacomartin
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July 15th, 2012 at 10:02:50 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

But "PH" definitely isnt'. In words that are about the same in English and Spanish, the "F" is used instead, for example:

Photography = Fotografía
Seismograph = Sismógrafo
Electroencephalograpgh= Electoencefalografía

And so on...



The English spelling is to try and preserve the greek letter phi Φ. There are some people who believe that the 'ph' and 'f' in English were pronounced slightly different several hundred years ago, but today they are identical. One ancient relic of the past is that some English speakers in response to a bad smell do not say "phew", but they spell out "P.U." in an elaborate attempt to recreate the old pronunciation of the letter 'phi'.

So English is stuck with thousands of words with this anachronism in the orthography. Remember, that most of the common Latin words in English came from the Norman occupation of England. They seem to be the only Romance language that preserved the 'ph' orthography.

phonograph - English
phonographe - French
fonografo - Italian
fonógrafo - Portuguese
fonograf - Romanian
Wizard
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July 16th, 2012 at 4:21:02 AM permalink
Fecha: 16-07-12
Palabra: Detengar


I'm not sure what to make of today's SWD. To begin, I suspect it isn't a legitimate Spanish word. It isn't in the two usual online dictionaries, nor the DRAI. However, if you Google it you'll find it used in lots of web sites in Spanish (example). In the place I found it the word was used as a translation of arrest as in "The suspect was arrested by the police," but I think it can also mean to detain.

The questions for the advanced readers are:

1. Compare and contrast detengar y detener.
2. Why don't the dictionaries list it?

Ejemplo time.

El maestra me detengó después de la escuela para masticando la goma en la aula. = The teacher kept me after school for chewing gum in classroom.
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Nareed
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July 16th, 2012 at 7:25:34 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I'm not sure what to make of today's SWD. To begin, I suspect it isn't a legitimate Spanish word.



It's as legitimate as "yor" and "theyr" in English.

Quote:

1. Compare and contrast detengar y detener.



The former is not a word, the latter is.

Quote:

2. Why don't the dictionaries list it?



I'm guessing because its not a word.

Here's the source of confussion: the verb is "detener," meaning to stop, to detain, and to arrest. In some conjugations, it can come out as "deténgalos," "deténgase," and so on; though it can also come out as "detente," "detenme," and others.

Quote:

El maestra me detengó después de la escuela para masticando la goma en la aula. = The teacher kept me after school for chewing gum in classroom.



Oy vey! (BTW that's Yiddish for "oy vey!"):

"The teacher dretained me after school for to be chewing the eraser in the classroom."

Not to mention that you used a masculine article "el" for a femenine noun "maestrA."

To be fair, "goma" is part of the translation of "chewing gum," but the usage in Mexico renders it non-existent. Som packages of gum are marked as "goma de mascar," but most people use the word "chicle," which is the name of the tree whose sap is used in making gum. "Goma" is any kind of rubber eraser, like that found on one end of a pencil, used to erase pencil marks on paper (or erasable ink, if you have any such).

So: "LA maestrA me detuvo después de clases por masticar chicle en el aula."

Now, I just said "aula" is archaic and falling into disuse. That is so. Besides, merely chewing gum in a calssroom is not a criminal school offense if done when no classes are being conducted. The problem is the common name for a classroom is "salón de clases," but most people would refer to it simply as "clase." This means the same word is used both for the classroom and the class. "Clases(s)" also means the duration of the school day, the lessons taught, etc. It gets confusing. So I had to resort to an odd word in order not to repeat the same word, with different meanings, twice in one sentence.

BTW, at my old school there were plaques in some rooms which said "Esta Aula Fué Donada Por...." (This classroom was donated by...). All of these plaques were altered numerous times per year by students. They found ways to add a "J" before "aula," so it would read "Esta Jaula fué..." "Jaula" means "cage." Of course the school authorities fixed the vandalism, but it woudl recurr. To the mind of a 7 to 12 year old, that's hilarious. And it may be a reason why "aula" fell into disuse.
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Wizard
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July 16th, 2012 at 10:21:27 AM permalink
I think I owe at least 30 pushups for today's SWD entry.

First, upon doing my due diligence, which I didn't do before, I find that the particular wonder I encountered, detengan is the subjunctive form of ellos/as of detener. So, the subjunctive gets me again. One of these days I would like to write an article about the trickiest things about learning Spanish, and the subjunctive is definitely going to be on it. Then again, that is no excuse, so I owe 10 pushups for that.

I absolutely am guilty again of not matching genders with the el maestra. I owe 20 for that, because I have broken that rule so many times. It seems so simple to check myself for that, but I keep focusing on the more difficult words that I overlook the obvious.

Regarding aula, I also considered clase, but I was afraid it was an anglified word that my first tutor would reprimand me for. So I took the safe choice and went with something that sounded like better Spanish, even if not used often.

Regarding goma, I knew that usually means rubber, but thought that it also meant chewing gum. Reverso seems to back me up on that. However, I'll try to use chicle or goma de masticar next time.

For the record, I'm not going to indicate today's SWD in the index on the first page of this thread, since detengar is not a legitimate word, as Nareed made perfectly clear.
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Nareed
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July 16th, 2012 at 10:49:30 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Regarding aula, I also considered clase, but I was afraid it was an anglified word that my first tutor would reprimand me for. So I took the safe choice and went with something that sounded like better Spanish, even if not used often.



It may be used more in other places. You do see the word used now and then, especially in writing, but in spoken Spanish it's rare.

Quote:

Regarding goma, I knew that usually means rubber, but thought that it also meant chewing gum.



As I explained, it does. It's just not used much as such. Someone asking for gum is very unlikely to say anything other than "chicle."

BTW, the common word for "rubber" is "hule." "Goma," as I said, almost universally means eraser. And "gomita," means "gummy."

Quote:

Reverso seems to back me up on that. However, I'll try to use chicle or goma de masticar next time.



"Goma de MASCAR."

As far as I know, "mascar" and "masticar," both mean "to chew," but for some reason the former is used in connection with gum (and tobacco, too).
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Wizard
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July 16th, 2012 at 11:06:24 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

As far as I know, "mascar" and "masticar," both mean "to chew," but for some reason the former is used in connection with gum (and tobacco, too).



Thanks, I was wondering about that. Could it be said that mascar is for chewing things you don't consume, and masticar when you do?

Speaking of synonyms, if you'll forgive me changing the topic, what is the difference between cara y rostro. Until now it seems I've always seen cara. However, on Mount Whitney I was reading a book of classic Spanish literature and the word rostro came up a lot.
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Nareed
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July 16th, 2012 at 11:21:53 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thanks, I was wondering about that. Could it be said that mascar is for chewing things you don't consume, and masticar when you do?



I can't say one way or another.

Quote:

Speaking of synonyms, if you'll forgive me changing the topic, what is the difference between cara y rostro.



As far as I know, they are just synonims.
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