Thread Rating:

Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
May 3rd, 2012 at 6:42:38 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Some of those on your list that I like to use when the opportunity comes up are: Effervescent, Epiphany, and Panacea. A word my father liked, that I never hear anyone else ever say, is perfunctory.



Make the chance. For instance:

"As he went perfunctorily on with his job, the dealer's subconscious mind, running on autopilot, presented him with an epiphany: most wannabe card counters might act with effervescence when they hit a winning streak, but they couldn't muster the patience and discipline to turn his table into a monetary panacea."

Of course, taking a bit more time, not trying to show off <w>, and thinking it through, you can do much better.

BTW, "Efervecente" is a rather common word in Spanish. There's "fast acting" aspirin sold in tablets you disolve in water, which also release CO2 in the mix and partly carbonate the water. they're called "aspirina efervecente."

Quote:

I think the difference is that tiritón means to shiver with cold, and escalofrío with fear. That is odd because the latter has frío in it. Perhaps the advanced readers can clarify.



"Escalofrio" is the kind fo shiver or thrill you get from some strong emotional reaction, like fear, excitement and such. I'm not sure there's a direct translation to English, but I'd go with an old rock/pop stock cliche "a shiver down my spine."

"tiritar," while not very common, does usually mean to shiver with cold. howver, most people are much more likely to say "temblando de frio," or "tembalndo de miedo," tahn "tiritando."

Quote:

No acaparas la manta; estoy tiritando. = Don't hog the blanket, I'm shivering.



"No acaparEs la manta..."

Quote:

I really wanted to try to use the imperative again, but my attempt evidently crashed and burned yesterday, so I'll play it safe and go with the present tense.



Well, the present tense is descriptive, meaning it tells you what's happening right now. So the form you used here means "You're not hogging the blanket." Not exactly, becasue some conjugations are different in each language. Let's see if some exampel might help:

No me molestEs = Don't bother me
No me molestAs = You're not bothering me

No corrAs = Don't run
No corrEs = You're not running.

As you can see, the letters A or E are not a defining factor of either the imperative or the present tense.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard 
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1390
  • Posts: 23419
May 3rd, 2012 at 7:39:14 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

No me molestEs = Don't bother me
No me molestAs = You're not bothering me

No corrAs = Don't run
No corrEs = You're not running.

As you can see, the letters A or E are not a defining factor of either the imperative or the present tense.



Thanks. I recall my Argentine tutor trying to teach me about this a while back. It an easy verb tense to learn, generally swapping the a for e, and e for a, but the first person is the same as the third.

However, isn't No corras the subjunctive, not the imperative. Wouldn't the imperative be No corre?

This leads to the question of what is the difference between the subjunctive and imperative. It seems to me the imperative is more...imperative. In other words, to convey a greater sense of urgency.

With so many verb tenses in Spanish, at least compared to English, do Spanish speakers learning English ever feel that English is a blunt instrument, lacking in nuance?
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
May 3rd, 2012 at 7:51:53 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

As you can see, the letters A or E are not a defining factor of either the imperative or the present tense.



The tense is confusing to first year students, because now all the rules they learned about indicative mood, seem to be reversed. Plus there is a different conjugation for positive and negative commands. The other problem is that English speakers don't think of sentences like "May God be with you" or "Let the girls come in" as commands, and are surprised that the conjugation is the same as commands.

SPanish language lesson on Imperitive


Certainly one of the most common questions English speakers have is "What does mee-da mean? Mostly because it is often said loudly.
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
May 3rd, 2012 at 9:05:55 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

However, isn't No corras the subjunctive, not the imperative. Wouldn't the imperative be No corre?



No corre = He doesn't run
No corras = Don't run (second person informal, aka "tu")
No corra = Don't run (second person formal, aka "usted")

Quote:

This leads to the question of what is the difference between the subjunctive and imperative. It seems to me the imperative is more...imperative. In other words, to convey a greater sense of urgency.



In my own limited understanding of such things, I take "imperative" to mean "giving orders." So and order would be "No corras." But if you said "no corras por favor," you're making a request.

Quote:

With so many verb tenses in Spanish, at least compared to English, do Spanish speakers learning English ever feel that English is a blunt instrument, lacking in nuance?



Are you kidding? English is much more flexible and infinetly more adaptable than Spanish. Think of how easy it is to turn a noun into a verb in English. Just as an aexample, the verb "to nuke," meaning either dropping an atomic bomb on something or heating something in a microwave oven, has no equivalent in Spanish. The former would be "Hacer estallar un arma nuclear (o una bomba atómica) sobre algún lugar," and the latter "calentar algo en el microondas."
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard 
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1390
  • Posts: 23419
May 3rd, 2012 at 9:39:12 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

No corre = He doesn't run
No corras = Don't run (second person informal, aka "tu")
No corra = Don't run (second person formal, aka "usted")



According to SpanishDict.com, corre is the second person informal imperative conjugation of correr.

Given that, how would you tell a friend, in a serious manner, "don't run!" For example, he can't see well, and there are glass doors in the vicinity, which you wouldn't want him to crash into, which he has been known to do so before unless given a firm warning about it.

Quote: Nareed

Just as an aexample, the verb "to nuke," meaning either dropping an atomic bomb on something or heating something in a microwave oven, has no equivalent in Spanish. The former would be "Hacer estallar un arma nuclear (o una bomba atómica) sobre algún lugar," and the latter "calentar algo en el microondas."



Well, at least here in the states we are prone to such slang expressions. I tend to think there is less of that in the UK and Australia. Personally, I never say "nuke" to refer to microwaving something. There is no nuclear reaction going on in the microwave, and I'm a stickler for scientific accuracy.

In Spanish do people make a verb out of a noun, even if it isn't allowed in the dictionary. For example, microondar for "to microwave."

Ejemplo time.

Por favor, microondas mi café por 30 segundos. = Please microwave my coffee for 30 seconds.

Do you think the Acadamia Real holds Spanish back from such idiomatic expressions?
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
May 3rd, 2012 at 10:04:10 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

According to SpanishDict.com, corre is the second person informal imperative conjugation of correr.



"Corre" is third person, no question about it.

Quote:

Given that, how would you tell a friend, in a serious manner, "don't run!"



As we've been doing "¡No corras!" or you may say "¡Despacio!" meaning "Slow down!"

Quote:

Well, at least here in the states we are prone to such slang expressions. I tend to think there is less of that in the UK and Australia. Personally, I never say "nuke" to refer to microwaving something. There is no nuclear reaction going on in the microwave, and I'm a stickler for scientific accuracy.



Thatw as just an example. However, when I reffer to microwaving something I'm more apt to say "zap" than "nuke."

Quote:

In Spanish do people make a verb out of a noun, even if it isn't allowed in the dictionary. For example, microondar for "to microwave."



I think infomrally some nouns get verbed, so to speak. In the old BBSes, the ones you had to dial to with a modem, some nouns for commands were turned into hispanicized verbs. For example "loadear" for "load, " "downloadear" for "download" and others I can't recall. Lately a growingly comon verb is "Tuitear," see if you can guess what it means.

Quote:

Por favor, microondas mi café por 30 segundos. = Please microwave my coffee for 30 seconds.



That would be a good conjugation, bu the verb's not used. If you want to say that in Spanish you'd go with "Por favor pon mi café en el microondas 30 segundos." You'd think people would call it "micro" by now, but not here. A "micro" is short for "microbus," which are the passenger avns that do duty for public trasnportation; you ought to ahve seen many when you were here last year. They're also known as "peseros" from the word "peso" as in currency. Oh, some epople might say "por favor pon mi café en el horno 30 segundos."

Quote:

Do you think the Acadamia Real holds Spanish back from such idiomatic expressions?



They cover some slang, i think.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
May 3rd, 2012 at 12:43:09 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

This leads to the question of what is the difference between the subjunctive and imperative. It seems to me the imperative is more...imperative. In other words, to convey a greater sense of urgency.



The imperative mood expresses direct commands and requests. In many circumstances, using the imperative mood may sound blunt or even rude, so it is often used with a polite coda as in "siéntese, por favor" . Grammatically the "por favor" does not change the "imperative mood".
Prohibitions are negative commands, and in Spanish (and other languages) it follow a different conjugation

The imperative tense is the same as the present subjunctive (PS) in many ways.

SINGULAR
1st person : Not applicable
2nd person familiar prohibition: same as PS
3rd person: same as PS
PLURAL
1st person : same as PS
2nd person familiar prohibition: same as PS (used in South American southern cone)
3rd person: same as PS

So correr would be the following in PS
corra
corras
corra
corramos
corráis
corran


In imperative it would be
not applicable
no corras
corra
corramos
no corráis
corran

Imperative in the positive in familiar 2nd person is the same as 2nd person singular formal present
corre (same as UD. Corre)

By itself (without punctuation) the sentence Corre could mean "you (formal) run", or it could mean "you (familiar) run!" as a command.

In the second person plural (used in Argentina) it is completely different Corred.

You would normally think of Imperative mood as a kind of subset of Conjunctive mood, except that it is very common to give positive commands in the second person. Then you follow the Ustedes form of Inidicative mood.

But the use of pronouns is very important in imperative! (see the link I gave earlier). Siéntese! Damélo! (etc.)

In many languages, including English this kind of overlap of moods is common."If I were a rich man" is subjunctive mood, but "were" is also plural past. The mood is often replaced in casual speech with simple singular past, "If I was a wealthy man". The King James version of the Bible follows the classic English rules of subjunctive much more faithfully than much of modern English speech.

==============================
As someone who has studied ancient languages, the general rule is that grammar gets more relaxed over the centuries. Spanish is much more relaxed than Latin, in particular because the nouns are not conjugated, but it retains the conjugated forms in the verbs. English is very fluid grammatically. Although it can lead to confusion, there is much more flexibility in turning nouns to verbs, etc.

It is an interesting observation, because the first grammar book is only 500 years old, and was written for Spanish and presented to Ferdinand and Isabella. The stated motivation was so that future generations would be able to read Cervantes.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard 
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1390
  • Posts: 23419
May 4th, 2012 at 4:41:43 AM permalink
Thanks for all the help with the imperative and subjunctive. Good stuff. I'm sure it will come up again.

Fecha: 5-4-12
Palabra: Encargar


Today's SWD doesn't seem to have an exact English equivalent, but could be used to mean commit, entrust, recommend, etc..

The question for the advanced readers is whether it has anything to do with cargar, which means to load.

Ejemplo time.

Puedo encargado a pedir el sombrero cuando jugando Monopolio. = I'm able to be counted on to ask for the hat when playing Monopoly.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
May 4th, 2012 at 4:51:10 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Today's SWD doesn't seem to have an exact English equivalent, but could be used to mean commit, entrust, recommend, etc..
The question for the advanced readers is whether it has anything to do with cargar, which means to load.



The two words are certainly cognates, although their meanings have since diverged.
cargar, also means "to charge"
encargar, also means "to entrust" or "to put in charge"
encargarse, also means "to take charge of something"

But encargar also means to annoy and pester which is a stretch. Unless you think of annoying as to "load someone up with your problems".

Another English cognate is car which is a vehicle to carry people.
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
May 4th, 2012 at 6:54:52 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Today's SWD doesn't seem to have an exact English equivalent, but could be used to mean commit, entrust, recommend, etc..



Going by the dictionary definition and taking usage into account, I'd say it emans:

1) To entrust something to someone
2) To impose an obligation
3) To bring or send something from somewhere else.

1) "Te encargo mi coche un ratito. Vuelvo pronto" = "Watch my car for a bit. I'll be back soon."

2) "Encárgate de la cotización de suministros" = "Take care of the supplies estimate."
2.1) "Yo me encargo." = "I'll take care of it"

3) "¿Te puedo encargar un iPad ahora que vas a Las Vegas?" = "Can I ask you to get me an iPad when you go to Vegas?"


Quote:

The question for the advanced readers is whether it has anything to do with cargar, which means to load.



"Cargar" also means to carry. Given the definitions above, all of which involve an obligation, that wuld seem the related meaning to "encargar."


Quote:

Puedo encargado a pedir el sombrero cuando jugando Monopolio. = I'm able to be counted on to ask for the hat when playing Monopoly.



Forget the Spanish part. I'm not sure the English part of the example makes sense. But see the definitions and examples above.

As to your sentence, I'd go with: "Puedes contar con que pida el sombrero cuando juguemos Monopolio."

BTW the game of Monopoly does exist in mexico and, I suppose, in other Spanish-speaking countries. but it's not very popular at all. What is popular is a similar game called "Turista," at leas in Mexico. it's pretty much the same, except you buy countries rather than streets, you go to Antarctica rather than Jail, you pass Mexico rather than Go, there are airlines rather than railroads, customs rather than taxes, etc. Otherwise it's pretty much the same game. Oh, and instead of different game pieces, the players each have a little airplane of a different color.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal

  • Jump to: