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Wizard
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Wizard
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April 24th, 2012 at 6:40:51 AM permalink
I should do more exercises like the one Paco linked to above. However, I'm lazy, and hate dry exercises like that. I would probably do terribly on it too. The book Breaking out of Beginner Spanish had a good treatment of it, which I should reread.

Fecha: 24-04-12
Palabra: Mohoso


Today's SWD means moldy. It should not be confused with mojado, which means wet, the past participle of mojar, which means to get wet.

The question for the advanced readers is whether mohoso is based on the verb mojar.

Ejemplo time.

Debemos comer el queso pronto o se pondrá mohoso.= We should eat the cheese soon, or it will become moldy.

My level of confidence in this example is not high. For one thing, we just went through the issue of how to conjugate deber with "he must like eggs." Using that as an example I would go with debe here, based on the cheese. However, this time we're connecting it to comer, although I couldn't explain why that would matter. I'm just going on hunch.

I also struggled with how to say "became." Somehow I think I've seen poner used to describe changing states.

So, how would the experts say it?
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Nareed
Nareed
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April 24th, 2012 at 6:52:19 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Palabra: Mohoso

Today's SWD means moldy.



I'd never come across ti before, but I was able to deduce the meaning. How? Read on:

Quote:

The question for the advanced readers is whether mohoso is based on the verb mojar.



No. The word "moho" means "mold," as in tiny fungi growing on moist surfaces. Remember the Spanish "h" is silent (why the language needs a silent letter is beyond my ability to comprehend). So the words dont' even sound alike.

Quote:

Debemos comer el queso pronto o se pondrá mohoso.= We should eat the cheese soon, or it will become moldy.



Perfect.

You may have chosen to say "debemos comerNOS el queso...." but the way you used "comer" is ok too.


Quote:

For one thing, we just went through the issue of how to conjugate deber with "he must like eggs." Using that as an example I would go with debe here, based on the cheese.



No :) If you'd said "I shoudl eat the cheese," then the wording comes out as "Debería de comer el queso..." Here the key is the number of people you're talking about, one or many. Since it's "we" then it's many. It's the people who should do something, not the cheese.


Quote:

I also struggled with how to say "became." Somehow I think I've seen poner used to describe changing states.



That's fine. There were some choices on how to say it, but the one you used is correct.
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pacomartin
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April 24th, 2012 at 7:21:34 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

The question for the advanced readers is whether mohoso is based on the verb mojar.



I don't know. I can't find the etymology anywhere. I did find an interesting idiom paralleling the English one:
no cría moho = he doesn't let the mold grow under his feet

Also, the words for "to wet" = mojar, and "to loosen"= mullir are cognates in Spanish. The equivalent English words are not cognates.

Hence the confusion in English of "to loose" meaning to let an animal go, and "to loosen" meaning to unscrew the screws.

Be forewarned that "mojar" has many slang meanings in different countries. While you see the sign "piso mojado" in any hallway where they are cleaning the floor, I would be careful about using it verbally, as you may have an unintentional meaning.

mullir
(Del lat. mollīre, ablandar).
1. tr. Esponjar algo para que esté blando y suave.
2. tr. Agr. Cavar alrededor de las cepas, de las patatas, etc., ahuecando la tierra.
3. tr. p. us. Tratar y disponer las cosas industriosamente para conseguir un intento.

mojar
(Del lat. vulg. molliāre, por mollīre, ablandar).
1. tr. Humedecer algo con agua u otro líquido. U. t. c. prnl.
2. tr. coloq. Dar de puñaladas a alguien.
3. tr. coloq. remojar (‖ convidar, celebrar).
4. tr. coloq. orinar. U. t. c. prnl.
5. tr. coloq. Cuba. untar (‖ sobornar).
6. intr. Introducirse o tener parte en una dependencia o negocio.
7. intr. Fís. Dicho de un líquido: Tener sus moléculas mayor afinidad con un sólido que entre sí. U. t. c. tr. El mercurio no moja el vidrio.
8. prnl. coloq. Comprometerse con una opción clara en un asunto conflictivo.
9. prnl. coloq. Cuba. En un negocio, obtener algún beneficio o ganancia, generalmente de forma ilegal.
Wizard
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Wizard
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April 24th, 2012 at 7:26:51 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

No :) If you'd said "I shoudl eat the cheese," then the wording comes out as "Debería de comer el queso..." Here the key is the number of people you're talking about, one or many. Since it's "we" then it's many. It's the people who should do something, not the cheese.



Now I'm getting confused again. I thought in Le deben los huevos, it is deben because the subject is the eggs, not the "he." So why is the number of people the key in my last ejemplo? To help get at the point, how would you translate "He should like eggs."
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Nareed
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April 24th, 2012 at 7:37:33 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Now I'm getting confused again. I thought in Le deben los huevos, it is deben because the subject is the eggs, not the "he." So why is the number of people the key in my last ejemplo? To help get at the point, how would you translate "He should like eggs."



I thought you were supposed to get under my skin, not the other way around :)

Ok, seriously now. Let me try:

He must like eggs = Le debeN gustar los huevos.
He must like Jane = Le debe gustar Jane
He must like Jane and Karen = Le debeN gustar Jane y Karen


You see the pattern here? If a person must like one thing, it's "debe." If he must like many things, it's "debeN." In such cases the number of things being liked determines the word usage.

Now:

I must get out of here = Debo salir de aquí
We must get out of here = DebeMOS salir de aquí
They must get out of here = DebeN salir de aquí

So in this case the number of people matters.

I think it's a case where the word usage doens't match subject and object, but my grammar handicap prevents me from saying for sure.
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Wizard
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Wizard
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April 24th, 2012 at 7:59:35 AM permalink
Thanks, but I already understood the above. What has suddenly thrown me for a loop is this:

Quote: Nareed

Here the key is the number of people you're talking about, one or many.



Let me ask how to translate:

He should like the eggs.
They should like the egg.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Nareed
Nareed
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April 24th, 2012 at 8:23:00 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

He should like the eggs.



Le deben gustar los huevos.

Quote:

They should like the egg.



Les debe gustar el huevo.

We're up against a subtle, maddening point, I think.

BTW, we need to discuss the difference between "should" and "must." But please hold on to that for a live tutoring session. it can get very complicated. One thing at a time.
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pacomartin
pacomartin
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April 24th, 2012 at 8:27:31 AM permalink
Match the English with the Spanish

In English rhere are 2!=4 combinations because the verb does not have a plural form.
1) He liked the eggs
2) They liked the egg
3) He liked the egg
4) They liked the eggs

There are 3!=6 combinations. Two don't make sense. Which two?

A) Les gustaban los huevos
B) Le gustaban los huevos
C) Les gustaba los huevos
D) Les gustaba el huevo
E) Le gustaba el huevo
F) Les gustaban el huevo
Wizard
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Wizard
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April 24th, 2012 at 8:59:07 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Le deben gustar los huevos.
Les debe gustar el huevo.



I agree. Now, let me ask about these (note the adding of "eat").

He should like to eat eggs.
They should like to eat the egg.

Agreed to put off the difference between must and should until live tutoring.

Quote: pacomartin

Match the English with the Spanish

In English rhere are 2!=4 combinations because the verb does not have a plural form.
1) He liked the eggs
2) They liked the egg
3) He liked the egg
4) They liked the eggs

There are 3!=6 combinations. Two don't make sense. Which two?

A) Les gustaban los huevos
B) Le gustaban los huevos
C) Les gustaba los huevos
D) Les gustaba el huevo
E) Le gustaba el huevo
F) Les gustaban el huevo



I think you mean there are 2^2 combinations in English and 2^3 in Spanish. You left off Le gustaba los huevos, I assume because the form of gustar does not match the number of eggs. Same issue as the omitted Le gustaban el huevo.

So...

1=B
2=D
3=E
4=A
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Nareed
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April 24th, 2012 at 9:17:23 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

He should like to eat eggs.



Le debe gustar comer huevos

Quote:

They should like to eat the egg.



Les debe gustar comer huevos.

I think I see where you're going. A verb such as "to like" applied directly to many things comes out different than if it's appied to another verb, such as "to eat," regardless of the number of things invovled.

I'm feeling the spirit of Captian Obvious... ;)

Quote:

Agreed to put off the difference between must and should until live tutoring.



Good. Just remind me of it then.
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