Thread Rating:

pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
October 30th, 2011 at 5:33:29 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Paco, gracias a tu y su madre para su ayadar. Pero creí que Salome era la hermana de Jesus.
Tambien, en el biblia Español, es James (in English, as in the book of "James") se llama Santiago?



The Epistle of James is often credited to the brother of Jesus Christ.
Quote: Wikipedia


The writer calls himself simply James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ. (Jas 1:1) Jesus had two apostles named James (Mt 10:2, 3), but it is unlikely that either of these wrote the letter. One apostle, James the son of Zebedee, was martyred about 44 CE. This would be very early for him to have been the writer. (Ac 12:1, 2) The other apostle James, the son of Alphaeus, is not prominent in the Scriptural record, and very little is known about him. The outspoken nature of the letter of James would seem to weigh against the writers being James the son of Alphaeus, for he would likely have identified himself as one of the 12 apostles, in order to back up his strong words with apostolic authority.
Rather, evidence points to James the brother of Jesus Christ, to whom the resurrected Christ evidently had made a special appearance, and who was prominent among the disciples. (Mt 13:55; Ac 21:15-25; 1Co 15:7; Ga 1:19, 2:9) The writer of the letter of James identifies himself as a slave of God and of the Lord"




Santiago is a shortened version of "Saint Iago" which refers to James, son of Zebedee , (the greater) an apostle. Saint James is the Patron Saint of Spain and according to legend, his remains are held in Santiago de Compostela in Galicia (Spain). Santiago became one of the Spanish names for James.

So technically, I don't suppose you could apply it to the brother of Jesus since he was not James the Greater. Of course Spanish did not exist at this time.

The English name "James" comes from Italian "Giacomo", a variant of "Giacobo" derived from Iacobus (Jacob) in Latin, itself from the Greek Ἰάκωβος.
In French, Jacob is translated "Jacques".
In eastern Spain, Jacobus became "Jacome" or "Jaime"; in Catalunya, it became Jaume,
in western Iberia it became "Iago", from Hebrew Ya'akov,
- which when prefixed with "Sant" became "Santiago" in Portugal and Galicia;
"Tiago" is also spelled "Diego", which is also the Spanish name of Saint Didacus of Alcalá.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1398
  • Posts: 23603
October 30th, 2011 at 6:24:31 PM permalink
Gracias.

So, the three Marys at the crucifixion were the Virgin Mary, Aunt Mary, and Mary Magdalena. The three Marys at the tomb were Mary (wife of Claofas), Mary Magdalena, and Mary Salome.

I still am trying to figure out who Mary Salome is. I speculated earlier that she was Jesus' sister, but I think I was thinking of Simone.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
October 30th, 2011 at 8:53:34 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Gracias.

So, the three Marys at the crucifixion were the Virgin Mary, Aunt Mary, and Mary Magdalena. The three Marys at the tomb were Mary (wife of Claofas), Mary Magdalena, and Mary Salome.

I still am trying to figure out who Mary Salome is. I speculated earlier that she was Jesus' sister, but I think I was thinking of Simone.




The canonical gospels are inconsistent, as is tradition. I know even less about the non-canonical, and apocryphal gospels.
"Mary Salome" may or may not be a second aunt of Jesus, That would makeall three sisters having the same first name. But that last comment is "extra-biblical". Salome is the mother of James "the greater", while Mary Cleopas is the mother of James, "the lesser".

There are 6 Marys in the New Testament (canonical)
(1) Mary, mother of Jesus (Virgin Mary)
(2) Mary Magdalene
(3) Mary Bethany - saint of contemplative life
(4) Mary, "the other Mary". Most likely Jesus's Aunt. Married to Cleophas. Her children are James, "the lesser" who is an apostle but is not the "the greater" James that we discussed earlier.
(5) Mary, the mother of John Mark, sister to Barabas
(6) Mary, a helper to Paul in Rome
(7) Salome is the mother of the sons of Zebedee" and is the mother of James (the greater) and John.

At the Cross for the crucifixion
Matthew: (2), (4) and (7)
Mark: (2), (4) and (7)
Luke: " a great company of people and women"
John: (1), (2), (4), and { (3) & (7). not clear }

At the Sepulcher(tomb)
Matthew: (2) and (4)
Mark: (2) and (4)
Luke: "the women who followed after"

At the Sepulcher(tomb) on Resurrection Morning
Matthew: (2), (4)
Mark: (2), (4), and (7)
Luke: (2), (4) and "Joanna"
John: (2)

If you review the summary above, there was no story about "three Marys" at the tomb in any of the four gospels. But the earliest known representation of the three Marys was discovered in a chapel in the ancient city of Dura Europos on the Euphrates, painted before the city's destruction in 256 CE.
There are many artworks and icons depicting "three Mary's at the tomb" discovering the body missing.
FrGamble
FrGamble
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 790
October 30th, 2011 at 9:34:30 PM permalink
Soy muy atrasado.
Amo Taco Bell.

For my two cents I am certain that the Three Marys refer to the group of women at the cross of Jesus. Only Luke has three women at the tomb and John makes it clear that it is just Mary Magdalen at the tomb. One thing to keep in mind is that John's Gospel often is the one that carries the most weight when it comes to traditions because it often stands apart from the other three Gospels, called synoptics (because Matt, Mark, and Luke see things the same most often). John is also special because it is the latest Gospel and has the most developed theology. Anyway back to the point.

For convience sake lets give a letter to each of the Mary's we will encounter at the cross.
Mary, Mother of God = A
Mary Magdalen (or of Magdala) = B
Mary, Wife of Clopas and mother of James = C
Mary, Solome or mother of Zebedee = D

It is important to note that Mary of Clopas is the mother of James. In Mt. 10:13 we read that James is the son of Alpheus. Alpheus can be rendered as Clopas in Aramaic and Greek. This makes Mary of Clopas the same as Mary the mother of James. This also gives us two Marys that are present in all the Gospels that name the women at the foot of the cross. (N.B. Luke does not name any women at the foot of the cross.) The problem then becomes that Matt. and Mark name Mary Salome who is also known as the mother of the sons of Zebedee (James, a different one, and John). John names THE MARY, Jesus' mother. In many people's minds it was considered as taken for granted that THE MARY was there at the cross and therefore not mentioned in the synoptics. The tradition of the Three Mary's however I think takes the account from John, which is the only Gospel read every year on Good Friday and most familar to the people. It uses these three Marys - MARY (A), Mary of Magdala (B), and Mary of Clopas (Alpheus) aka the mother of James (C).

Matt 27:56 has B, C, D; Mark 15:40 has B, C, D; and John 19:25 has A, B, C.

So it turns out as simply as A,B,C. Aye carumba!
pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
October 31st, 2011 at 4:44:45 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

For my two cents I am certain that the Three Marys refer to the group of women at the cross of Jesus.
Only Luke has three women at the tomb and John makes it clear that it is just Mary Magdalen at the tomb.



Parecería que la tradición de los "Tres Marías" se confunde con la tradición de tres mujeres en el sepulcro (ver ilustraciones).


Quote: Luke 24:1-12


[1] On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.
[2] They found the stone rolled away from the tomb,
[3] but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
[4] While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them.
[5] In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, "Why do you look for the living among the dead?
[6] He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee:
[7] 'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.' "
[8] Then they remembered his words.
[9] When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others.
[10] It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles.
[11] But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense.
[12] Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened.

Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1398
  • Posts: 23603
October 31st, 2011 at 7:51:25 AM permalink
Wow. Thanks for all your hard work Paco and Father. It pains me to mention that you forgot the minimum single word of Spanish, Paco. The penance for that is three frases en Español.

Father, it is supposed to be Yo Quiero Taco Bell, but it seems to me that amar is putting your love even deeper than querer. To make a comparison to your homily two weeks ago, I would compare querer to philos, and amar to agape, but I'm sure the more experienced Spanish speakers will have a thing or two to say about that.

So, this all seems to boil down to this verse, as FrG summarized:

Quote: John 19:25

Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mothers sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.



The other three Marys are just confusing the issue. It makes me wonder what ratio of women at that time and place were named Mary. Or did Jesus just have an affinity for the name?

Speaking of the name Mary, the baby name calculator, which I spawned at SSA.gov, lists Mary as only #109 for 2010. Compare that to #47 in 2000, #26 in 1980, #9 in 1970, and #1 as late as 1961. That is quite the decline. I speculate it has something to do with society's changing attitudes about women, formerly valuing conformity, and now valuing individuality. In my prediction, it will come back in vogue in a generation.

After all the trouble I kicked up about the Three Marys, I think we can take a day off from a new SWD today, and enjoy the dia de las brujas.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
October 31st, 2011 at 8:30:09 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

After all the trouble I kicked up about the Three Marys, I think we can take a day off from a new SWD today, and enjoy the dia de las brujas.



Here we call it "Halloween" :)

But I think we've discussed it before. In any case, "día de las brujas" is a commonly used translation.

And in case the above sentence didn't count, and in keeping with the rules and all, when taking grammar in school a sentence was called "oración." The word also means "prayer." But then "sentence" means other things in English, too.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1398
  • Posts: 23603
October 31st, 2011 at 8:44:21 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

But I think we've discussed it before. In any case, "día de las brujas" is a commonly used translation.



Yes, the kids' book I just finished reading (a Spanish translation of an English book) called it "día de las brujas." On Telemundo or Univision, I don't remember which, they also referred to it as "día de las brujas." I'll have to ask Lupe, my housekeeper, for a third opinion. I tend to think she'll prefer "Halloween," as she seems to speak Spanglish. My tutor always cringes when I quote anything that Lupe says.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
October 31st, 2011 at 9:18:28 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Yes, the kids' book I just finished reading (a Spanish translation of an English book) called it "día de las brujas."



I learned it was supposed to be called that from a dubbed Charlie Brown cartoon :)

BTW for tomorrow, if you don't mind disrupting your license plate series, you may want to use the word "calavera." Look it up in connection with the día de los muertos.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
October 31st, 2011 at 9:33:36 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I'll have to ask Lupe, my housekeeper, for a third opinion. I tend to think she'll prefer "Halloween," as she seems to speak Spanglish. My tutor always cringes when I quote anything that Lupe says.



El spanglish es lingüísticamente impreciso. El término Spanglish no está incluido en el Diccionario de la lengua española de la Real Academia Española.

Y sin embargo, hay escritores que sólo escriben en puro spanglish, como las puertorriqueñas Ana Lydia Vega.

La novela Yo-Yo Boing! por Giannina Braschi tiene muchos ejemplos del spanglish. Yo-Yo Boing y Jughead estan el mismo.

Inglés:to park a car
Español: estacionar un coche
Espanglish: parquear el carro

  • Jump to: