2016 Election -- Part II

Quote: rxwine

IF this is true...



then what's the beef?

usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/09/13/24-7-wall-st-most-educated-countries/15460733

Taxpayers don't AUTOMATICALLY get the benefit of the extra $200,000; the government gets their hands on it first...whether or not the taxpayers actually see the benefits of it depends on how well the government does with the money taken for those who earned it. The person having the $200,000 taken from them would surely rather keep it than have it go to the government...

Quote: RonC

He asked about discussing "why" he should vote for her, not why you (presumably) and I won't. That is a fair question and it deserves a answer deeper than our usual answers about her.

--Senator
--Secretary of State

Two pieces of experience that Trump, for example, does not have.

Ok, let's try this.
Greatest contribution as a Senator?
Greatest contribution as Secretery of State?

Quote: Boz

Questioning peoples education seems to be a big issue for you and Mike BJ. Goes back to that typical elitist liberal argument that they are better and smarter than the average person.
...
AZ's education level shouldn't be an issue and I have no clue about him,

There's a big difference between the substance of one's education and one's education level. AZ is arguing against the value of a liberal arts degree without actually having one, and that's as credible as a blind person criticizing a Monet. He thinks the real world is only about laying pipes, fixing air conditioners, or eliminating pests, and to him knowledge work isn't "real work." In other words, he thinks that white collar work isn't part of the "real world", which is a supremely naive viewpoint considering that, as he reads this, he is using forum code written by a software engineer. The fact that millions of American workers' daily physical labor consists of sitting at a desk typing does not invalidate their work product or make them somehow lesser contributors to "the real world." I am literally in a meeting right now with six attorneys and several government officials, with hundreds of jobs and millions of dollars on the line (yes, we're on a break), and nobody with a shred of sense would say that what we're doing isn't "real work." And how can you take someone seriously who argues that degree ROI is supremely important when they went to school and studied undergraduate business and history? A much higher ROI degree would have been computer science or electrical engineering, so why not study that if making money is all that matters?

The answer is that money is not all that matters. The true value of a liberal arts degree lies not in the specific subjects studied or but in the way one learns to study them, and in turn learns how to learn. Alfred Mander wrote:

Quote: Logic for the Millions

Thinking is skilled work. It is not true that we are naturally endowed with the ability to think clearly and logically - without learning how, or without practicing. People with untrained minds should no more expect to think clearly and logically than people who have never learned and never practiced can expect to find themselves good carpenters, golfers, bridge players, or pianists.

If AZ's experience with the "business world" is that managers do not value critical thinking and the other non-physical skills that should be learned as part of a good liberal arts education, the businesses he's interacting with are poorly managed.

Also, you aren't criticizing Donald Trump for going to Penn or Antonin Scalia for going to Harvard, so don't stereotype and suggest that all students who go to good schools are liberal elitists. I know of many Ivy League conservatives and so do you.

Personal responsibility or just business?

Quote:

The presumptive GOP presidential nominee sued Deutsche Bank to try to get out of $40 million in personal loans he'd taken out to build Trump International Hotel & Tower in Chicago in 2008, arguing the financial collapse was an unexpected "force majeure," or act of God, that negated his duties to repay the loan.

The lawsuit came just two years after Trump suggested he was rooting for a real estate collapse so he could swoop in and buy up property at a steep discount.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/trump-sued-bank-40m-debt-housing-crash-article-1.2648758

Quote: MathExtremist

There's a big difference between the substance of one's education and one's education level. AZ is arguing against the value of a liberal arts degree without actually having one, and that's as credible as a blind person criticizing a Monet.

Nonsense. I can see what courses someone took and get an idea for what they mean. Same as I can look at the global warming argument and draw intelligent conclusions. Your attitude here is a huge part of why I do not take educated elitists seriously. I am intelligent enough to draw conclusions. I do not think you need a degree to "understand" something.

Quote:

He thinks the real world is only about laying pipes, fixing air conditioners, or eliminating pests, and to him knowledge work isn't "real work." In other words, he thinks that white collar work isn't part of the "real world", which is a supremely naive viewpoint considering that, as he reads this, he is using forum code written by a software engineer.

Hardly. When I do title chains I often go home more physically tired than when I have done a day of labor. Minimal physical work there. I have been in white collar work much of my life. I consider my career "gray collar" as I have often had to know how to manage the P&L then later go figure out how to do something constructive.

What I despise is the idea that people are somehow less worthy because they so the physical work you say above. There is an idea among too many in the education class that they are better because they work in an office. The same people often cannot even assemble their IKEA purchase. Look at how many college freshman dropouts there are. Look at how many "general studies" majors there are. If you cannot select a major, you do not belong in college. Both groups would be better to learn some "hard" skills as they will make more money with far less debt.

Quote:

The answer is that money is not all that matters. The true value of a liberal arts degree lies not in the specific subjects studied or but in the way one learns to study them, and in turn learns how to learn.

Once again, faculty lounge talk. The person with a business or computer major is going to get hired out of college far faster than the liberal arts major. At the entry level, they want you to contribute NOW! Any degree shows you "can learn." Practical skill gets you hired.

Listen to some Dave Ramsey to get a feel for what I am talking about.

We're off on another tangent here regarding education.

College degrees are not "worthless" but some are worth less.

Sometimes people go to overly expensive colleges, borrow lots of money, and pursue degrees that are not a good value for their intended occupation.

Yes, there are great advantages to getting a degree. There are more advantages to getting a degree that prepares you for what you want to do instead of what you like to study. Major in Business; minor in the Fine Arts....or even do it as a double major...

Quote: RonC

Yes, there are great advantages to getting a degree. There are more advantages to getting a degree that prepares you for what you want to do instead of what you like to study. Major in Business; minor in the Fine Arts....or even do it as a double major...

Hear Hear, what I am trying to say. We are, however, in a society where nobody dares "judge" anymore. Years ago a kid would say he wanted to major in German Polka and his dad would slap him silly and tell him to straighten out. Today the kid wants such a major and the parents say, "we want him to follow his dream!" The kid then has to work some low-wage job to pay the monthly vig to the Feds for his loans because he is unemployable.

Guys like Mike Rowe are starting to make some progress in fixing the way we think, But the road is long.

Quote: AZDuffman

Years ago a kid would say he wanted to major in German Polka and his dad would slap him silly and tell him to straighten out.

Alrighty then!

Quote: Boz

Questioning peoples education seems to be a big issue for you and Mike BJ.

Let's be clear here: It doesn't matter to me one bit whether someone completed college or not. The *actual* issue for me is that when someone can't even correctly spell simple three-letter words (e.g., they can't differentiate homonyms I learned in third grade), then it's pretty hard to take their arguments seriously. And, it's not surprising that it's the people who can't spell their way out of a wet paper bag who are the ones making the most ridiculous arguments. Coincidence? I think not.

Caught the cats dancing on my keyboard again.
I know not why....