Arrested for playing on someones players card

When using another players card one has to ask who is the victim

When someone uses your credit card without authorization what do you say?

"I was the victim of credit card fraud. I was the victim of identity theft"

You dont say "someone stole my identity and credit card. The bank was the victim of credit card fraud"

The person whose name is on the card is the victim. They are the one who notifies police and fills out reports and complaints.

Naturally the bank is a co-victim but as the card holder you are the victim

And this is where casinos have a problem when their cards are used by other people with the cardholders permission

Those people are not victims. They will not testify for the casino they were victims (in fact all my people would be called on my behalf if it ever went to court)

Basically the casino now has to tell the judge and jury their customers were victimizing them by accepting their free gifts and letting someone else obtain them

Sorry but the victim simply is not the casino. They are giving offers. The players are saying they want to give them to others. The offers were "purchased" through past play.

In fact imo the casinos steal from thosr players by reneging on offers they promised. Essentially taking money with promises of hotels and gifts and then stealing by not delivering what was promised

I know they wont see it that way but casinos often have skewed views of reality so there you go

Quote: darkoz

I am talking about criminal charges

They cannot pursue those

Casinos dont get to make up laws or crimes

Perhaps they could try some civil proceedings and as you stated they would most likely not be successful

Partially correct.

CASINOS cannot make up laws or crimes.... BUT.... TRIBES can. When you are on a Reservation or Rancheria, you legally leave the State and go onto sovereign territory. The laws there can and will be very different than what they are outside the Rez.

Caveat Emptor.

Quote: FCBLComish

Partially correct.

CASINOS cannot make up laws or crimes.... BUT.... TRIBES can. When you are on a Reservation or Rancheria, you legally leave the State and go onto sovereign territory. The laws there can and will be very different than what they are outside the Rez.

Caveat Emptor.

Yeah tribal casinos are tricky

Even Nersessian says stay away

Casinos outside the US are also exempt from my above comments

Probably my fault for being USA centric

It's simple. Just have the original owner of the card verbally tell the Player's Club Worker that he wants to allow his friend to use his Player's Card. A simple,"Hi, I'm Bill, this is my Player's Card, and here is my friend Tom. I want to allow Tom to use my Player's Card," is all there is to it. There is the possibility that the PC will say something like,"No, Sir, that's against Casino Rules and Regulations," and at that point it's a no go, but it wouldn't hurt to try to verbally say you want to allow a friend to use the card.

Quote: Nathan

It's simple. Just have the original owner of the card verbally tell the Player's Club Worker that he wants to allow his friend to use his Player's Card. A simple,"Hi, I'm Bill, this is my Player's Card, and here is my friend Tom. I want to allow Tom to use my Player's Card," is all there is to it. There is the possibility that the PC will say something like,"No, Sir, that's against Casino Rules and Regulations," and at that point it's a no go, but it wouldn't hurt to try to verbally say you want to allow a friend to use the card.

Sage advice

Dont forget to mention you can also count down a double deck of cards in 6 seconds flat and are well respected in the Blackjack community. Is it okay if you wong out occasionally and do the Hi-lo count

Simple solutions for simple people. You could also ask the dealer to slow down. Explain that you are counting and he is too fast. If they object, go over their head. Casinos paramount reason for existing is to give their valued patrons a positive experience.

Quote: darkoz

Yeah tribal casinos are tricky

Even Nersessian says stay away

Casinos outside the US are also exempt from my above comments

Probably my fault for being USA centric

I believe the OP was about a casino in Oklahoma. 100% tribal. They have the ability to arrest, detain, and even try someone for what they consider is a crime on their territory.

Quote: FCBLComish

I believe the OP was about a casino in Oklahoma. 100% tribal. They have the ability to arrest, detain, and even try someone for what they consider is a crime on their territory.

There has to be some sort of state or federal imposed limitations?

They can’t give someone a life sentence for spitting on sacred ground, correct?

Quote: gamerfreak

There has to be some sort of state or federal imposed limitations?

They can’t give someone a life sentence for spitting on sacred ground, correct?

They have to be able to compete in the free market. If their laws are too restrictive (AKA something out of a Star Trek episode) then nobody will patronize their establishment.

As far as gaming is concerned, they have to adhere to a compact that they negotiate with the state.

As far as non-gaming is concerned, it gets murkier. I am not sure any tribe has tried to offer legalized prostitution for example.

This is taken from https://system.uslegal.com/tribal-governments/

Generally, states do not interfere with tribal governments. Congress, however, has the power to pass laws that govern Indian tribes and their members. Congress tries to make laws that help American Indians, while respecting each tribe's authority to pass its own laws and govern itself.

Quote: FCBLComish

They have to be able to compete in the free market. If their laws are too restrictive (AKA something out of a Star Trek episode) then nobody will patronize their establishment.

As far as gaming is concerned, they have to adhere to a compact that they negotiate with the state.

As far as non-gaming is concerned, it gets murkier. I am not sure any tribe has tried to offer legalized prostitution for example.

This is taken from https://system.uslegal.com/tribal-governments/

Generally, states do not interfere with tribal governments. Congress, however, has the power to pass laws that govern Indian tribes and their members. Congress tries to make laws that help American Indians, while respecting each tribe's authority to pass its own laws and govern itself.

Sounds like AP'ing a tribal casino is a real gamble :)

There is an often told tale of a BJ AP taking a tribe for a couple of thousand only to find his car towed away, fresh blue lines drawn around the parking spot and a handicap parking sign installed. Anyone want to guess what the fine for parking in the spot was?
I first heard it on a forum, but then later read it in a book. Only thing was in both cases, it was a first person story.

I think you are incorrect on this point, man. When they issue someone that card, they input a scan of that person’s ID into database. It’s got your ID attached to it. So in a way, it is an ID substitute. That’s why if you sit at a table, they more often than not, accept your players card in place of your ID. When in the casino, you need one or the other or they won’t let you play a table game at all. It is exactly like stealing an identity of another person. Let’s compare it to obtaining a CVS rewards card, which does not require your ID to be presented in order to be issued. You can literally have a CVS rewards card bearing the name of Angelina Jolie if you so wish. The only problem you might have is getting a prescription in your name. If they scan your CVS card and the real Angelina Jolie had picked up a bunch of OXI pills in her last refill two days ago and here you are with the prescription for OXI, they could refuse you your meds or worse put you on a suspected drug-dealer list to have police interview you. Similarly, it is illegal to use another person’s debit card even with their pin, and that person’s full consent. Even when it’s your spouse or your parent/child, if you get caught withdrawing funds and the card does not match your ID, you’re screwed. Back in the day cards often got trapped inside ATM and in order to get it out, you needed to go into the bank and ask them to give it back to you. Can you imagine the horror if the card it turned out wasn’t yours?

So, back to casino cards and why it may not work out as you hope. Let’s say you have a winning strategy and you are looking to only profit about $1,000 at a table game while risking about $3,000 of your own money. It’s a one-time win and leave situation. 10 minutes play at most. Once you win, they will start looking for any excuse to not pay out. If your eyes look different than the eyes of the player the card was given to, you may not get paid your table win.

Additionally, every win and loss goes into the card activity history. When filing taxes you will be asked to verify with a statement from the casino how much you earned. Let’s say your friend who gives you his players card is not a gambler but you won a $1,000 at a table using his card. Now he’s got to pay taxes on that $1,000 that he didn’t even really earn, because you were the one who earned it. Depending on his current income level, that $1,000 might put him over a threshold where his tax bracket gets higher for the year. He may no longer be eligible for section 8 housing, or food stamps. In truth you are screwing him even if you don’t use his comps. Not a very “friend” thing to do.
Casino rules is one thing but breaking tax laws is a far more serious crime. And I promise you, if you win, your friend will be pissed about paying more taxes. If you manage to get away with it, at what cost? Is it worth it? Again nevermind even using their comps. I’ve been tempted to pick up a few abandoned cards so I can sneak in to play incognito (under another person’s name) and run right after I win tossing the card in the trash right after I used it. Because let’s face it, they all already have a file on me in their system and they all know my strategy. I can’t fool anyone that I’m a novice or don’t know what I’m doing. The strategy I have will only work for a dumb tourist they rarely encountered in the past. But as much as I want to try it, I know I will get caught as being not the person on the card and that will get me locked up.
Walking into a casino with multiple people’s cards is what actually the issue was for the OP’s friend. Casinos scan everything in your pockets for personal info. You can not be multiple people obviously so that was the signal for them to come grab the guy. Best way to avoid it is to only walk in with a single player’s card, leave your driver’s licence/ids, Costco club card, CVS card and all and any cards that bear your or someone else’s name on them, and your cell phone at home or in the motel room. Take a taxi to and from the casino, bring cash. But even then, if you don’t visually match the friend who’s card you borrowed, you will be spotted and tossed out like a used rag without your winnings. Again, don’t even attempt to get other people’s comps. That WILL 100% get you in trouble.

Try going into Costco with someone else’s club cards and see if you can buy anything…spoiler:you can’t. Their club discount is only for members of their club. You probably won’t be arrested but you will be prevented from taking advantage of their low priced merch.

Quote: DRich

Quote: darkoz

Too bad. They can go play a violin. But they CANNOT pursue any legal ramifications under the law

That statement is 100% WRONG. They can definitely pursue legal ramifications although they most likely will not be successful.
link to original post

Depends. Did the person win or lose while using the card? If they lost, it might fly. If they won, they will get in trouble. They just ran up someone else’s tax bill with their winnings. Now that person the card belongs to can’t say “I didn’t make $5,000 at a casino” that year to the IRS. They will expect their cut of that money regardless.

Just imagine getting a bill from a hospital for $30,000 that you never went to. It turns out another person used your SSN to get a surgery. You may or may not know who it was. But your SSN being on the bill now means you are on the hook to pay this bill which you never racked up. The benefit of the surgery went to another person, but you are stuck with the bill.

Imagine making a new account just to speak authoritatively about this subject with irrelevant analogies.

Lol at the IRS will want copies of your win-loss record from the casino to verify part. They don’t accept those as proof because they’re notoriously inaccurate, they want you to keep your own records.

Quote: nonentity

I think you are incorrect on this point, man. When they issue someone that card, they input a scan of that person’s ID into database. It’s got your ID attached to it. So in a way, it is an ID substitute. That’s why if you sit at a table, they more often than not, accept your players card in place of your ID. When in the casino, you need one or the other or they won’t let you play a table game at all. It is exactly like stealing an identity of another person. Let’s compare it to obtaining a CVS rewards card, which does not require your ID to be presented in order to be issued. You can literally have a CVS rewards card bearing the name of Angelina Jolie if you so wish. The only problem you might have is getting a prescription in your name. If they scan your CVS card and the real Angelina Jolie had picked up a bunch of OXI pills in her last refill two days ago and here you are with the prescription for OXI, they could refuse you your meds or worse put you on a suspected drug-dealer list to have police interview you. Similarly, it is illegal to use another person’s debit card even with their pin, and that person’s full consent. Even when it’s your spouse or your parent/child, if you get caught withdrawing funds and the card does not match your ID, you’re screwed. Back in the day cards often got trapped inside ATM and in order to get it out, you needed to go into the bank and ask them to give it back to you. Can you imagine the horror if the card it turned out wasn’t yours?

You're correct about the ID scan, at least, usually.

I think absolutely needing to present an ID or Players Card to play Table Games is an exception, rather than the rule. In fact, I can't think of a time someone was made to show one or the other.

The CVS comparison is bizarre and totally irrelevant to anything.

Another person's Debit Card goes to banking information and the conduct of banks has a whole bevy of regulations. Secondly, most casino's players club materials that I have perused say something to the effect that, "Free Play has no cash value," so you can't steal something that they declare valueless in the first place. I have heard, secondhand, about someone being arrested for using another card...but I haven't heard back on how that went, if they were charged with anything or what they were charged with. Last time I heard about an arrest along those lines, it turned out that they were also using a Fake ID for that person, which does get into impersonation.

Quote:

So, back to casino cards and why it may not work out as you hope. Let’s say you have a winning strategy and you are looking to only profit about $1,000 at a table game while risking about $3,000 of your own money. It’s a one-time win and leave situation. 10 minutes play at most. Once you win, they will start looking for any excuse to not pay out. If your eyes look different than the eyes of the player the card was given to, you may not get paid your table win.

Is this common? What casinos are you visiting? Why would they refuse to pay $1,000 in winnings? I've never heard of this. Beyond that, it gets back to the point that, in general, I don't think casinos force either Players Card or ID to play Table Games.

Quote:

Additionally, every win and loss goes into the card activity history. When filing taxes you will be asked to verify with a statement from the casino how much you earned. Let’s say your friend who gives you his players card is not a gambler but you won a $1,000 at a table using his card. Now he’s got to pay taxes on that $1,000 that he didn’t even really earn, because you were the one who earned it. Depending on his current income level, that $1,000 might put him over a threshold where his tax bracket gets higher for the year. He may no longer be eligible for section 8 housing, or food stamps. In truth you are screwing him even if you don’t use his comps. Not a very “friend” thing to do.

As has been stated, these win/loss reports are notoriously inaccurate in the first place and are probably even worse for Table Games than they are machines. And, on Table Games?. No. The only way anything could have potential tax ramifications is if a W2G was hit, then the person might have a problem, but that would also require the casino itself to be unscrupulous. In the event of anything taxable, the casino should require physical ID and process the W2G in the name on the ID regardless of what the players club card in the machine says.

Quote:

Casino rules is one thing but breaking tax laws is a far more serious crime. And I promise you, if you win, your friend will be pissed about paying more taxes. If you manage to get away with it, at what cost? Is it worth it? Again nevermind even using their comps. I’ve been tempted to pick up a few abandoned cards so I can sneak in to play incognito (under another person’s name) and run right after I win tossing the card in the trash right after I used it. Because let’s face it, they all already have a file on me in their system and they all know my strategy. I can’t fool anyone that I’m a novice or don’t know what I’m doing. The strategy I have will only work for a dumb tourist they rarely encountered in the past. But as much as I want to try it, I know I will get caught as being not the person on the card and that will get me locked up.
Walking into a casino with multiple people’s cards is what actually the issue was for the OP’s friend. Casinos scan everything in your pockets for personal info. You can not be multiple people obviously so that was the signal for them to come grab the guy. Best way to avoid it is to only walk in with a single player’s card, leave your driver’s licence/ids, Costco club card, CVS card and all and any cards that bear your or someone else’s name on them, and your cell phone at home or in the motel room. Take a taxi to and from the casino, bring cash. But even then, if you don’t visually match the friend who’s card you borrowed, you will be spotted and tossed out like a used rag without your winnings. Again, don’t even attempt to get other people’s comps. That WILL 100% get you in trouble.
link to original post

They, "Scan everything in your pockets for personal info?" Dude, their facial recognition still mostly sucks. You really think they can read through your pants and wallet what the cards in your pocket say?

I honestly can't believe you took the time to type all of that what with 80-90% of it being either flatly wrong or not always true.

This is a gambling forum, although I can understand how someone might mistake it for a creative writing-oriented one.
Thanks for joining. You will do well here.

As Mission says 90% of what he said is untrue and I speak from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, not second hand accounts.

I have PERSONALLY been detained with as many as 28 players cards in my possession, handed them over, had police called, had police ask if I had permission to use the cards and to prove it, I handed over all the phone numbers.

The officers then called most everyone, asked them to verify their birthdays (which they had in front of them supplied by the casino) and then asked if I had their permission to use the cards

Of course everyone said yes and the police told the casino they could do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Of course, the casino was free to issue me a trespassing ban for the future. That's it.

That's not "I guess" or "imagine this". This is real life, spoken by me who actually has had this happen.

To be clear, it's happened to me in the following states (getting caught with cards not necessarily police intervention)

NY (no police, no charges, lawsuit filed[I posted about the lawsuit elsewhere and while I didn't prevail for unlawful detainment the defendant attorneys stressed on the record that what I did was not criminal)

NJ (DEG officer called in, refused to issue anything, except trespassing violation which casino had incorrect (long story) and even that was thrown out.

Pennsylvania (state troopers called in (this is where they phoned nearly every cardholder while I was being backroomed by the officers themselves) I was released and asked to phone them a week later (some cardholders hadn't answered the phone). One week later state trooper in charge said he was closing the case.

Mississippi (no police called. One JACKPOT on another person card WHILE using their Freeplay. Took an hour to get paid and a bunch of questions. BUT was finally paid (not banned but all my cards killed at that casino for comps the next day).

From FIRST-HAND experience I can guarantee you that what that new poster said is bunk.

Also, because it's part and parcel of my business I am aware of state laws involving use of another person players card and pretty much they are always lumped in with credit cards. They are almost always the same laws!!!!

They are usually called "Access Device Laws" and state it is illegal to use them (any device that gives you temporary access to a company like credit cards or comps cards etc) WITHOUT the permission of THE CARD HOLDER but is legal if used with the card holders permission.

Finally just to squash this notion about the IRS bill for playing on another person card. Unless you win over ten gees, casinos do not ask for social security information so they aren't sending anything to the IRS for 90% (don't hold me to the percentage just off the cuff from experience) of players.

And imagine if you ACCIDENTALLY left your card in the machine and the next player did have a good run. You really think you are getting the tax bill for that accident?

Seriously, LMAO!

Just to be clear, my statements related to arrests were secondhand. I have also been 86’ed for having other cards on me.

ADDED: My experience with this in PA was similar to that of DarkOz, except they were able to get ahold of people while I was there. Actually, they didn’t even try to call the players card people, but made one phone call to someone who I shared a checking account with because the debit card associated with that account was in the other person’s name.

Using another person players card WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission is about the same as driving another person's car WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission.

If you can't grasp why, it beats me

Quote: Mission146

Just to be clear, my statements related to arrests were secondhand. I have also been 86’ed for having other cards on me.

ADDED: My experience with this in PA was similar to that of DarkOz, except they were able to get ahold of people while I was there. Actually, they didn’t even try to call the players card people, but made one phone call to someone who I shared a checking account with because the debit card associated with that account was in the other person’s name.
link to original post

I suspect they didn't bother to call everyone because Mission doesn't go hard like I do.

It was in Pennsylvania I was caught using 28! Cards so I can see them finding it difficult to believe I had everyone's permission however it soon became clear they were being hit by a team.

I should also point out they had actually caught me twice inside the same casino. First, the casino said don't use other players cards but didn't ban me.

Since I wasn't banned but I knew they would follow me whenever I was in the casino I began using my now notorious masks. And I pulled over a month before the card activity made them realize they were still being hit. They kept getting fooled by the masks.

The same state trooper saw my mannerisms were the same and when he finally approached me asked me if I was related to Mr. Xxx (the trooper thought I was my father because I had an old man mask on.). Eventually in the backroom I took the mask off as I had to produce ID).

I still didn't get arrested for using other players cards not even for doing it wearing a mask!!!

Come on guys. It's just not illegal!

If you tried to use someone else's player card to draw a marker you'd be in big trouble including with the law if caught, which you almost assuredly would be caught. Using someone else's card to play and give credit to the card holder, that is against casino rules, but probably not against the law. Drawing benefits off someone else's card without permission, obviously a theft against the law, with permission, again, against casino rules, but probably not against the law.

It's clear that the days of people using others' players cards and getting away with it for whatever purposes are numbered, but in the rinky dink casinos it might go on enough years that it wouldn't matter to most.

Machines are generally unmanned, which is why they try to police the misuse of player cards by requiring input of a PIN code. At the tables, most casinos do not require a PIN code (although, Resorts World Vegas, does), but your ID is already scanned into the system and appears on the pit boss' screen when the card is presented. These are the current measures employed to head off at the pass misuse of player cards but there are far more sophisticated measures coming.

And of course it would be the security force’s fault not management’s or the patron’s fault, you know.

Quote: MDawg

If you tried to use someone else's player card to draw a marker you'd be in big trouble including with the law if caught, which you almost assuredly would be caught. Using someone else's card to play and give credit to the card holder, that is against casino rules, but probably not against the law. Drawing benefits off someone else's card without permission, obviously a theft against the law, with permission, again, against casino rules, but probably not against the law.

It's clear that the days of people using others' players cards and getting away with it for whatever purposes are numbered, but in the rinky dink casinos it might go on enough years that it wouldn't matter to most.

Machines are generally unmanned, which is why they try to police the misuse of player cards by requiring input of a PIN code. At the tables, most casinos do not require a PIN code (although, Resorts World Vegas, does), but your ID is already scanned into the system and appears on the pit boss' screen when the card is presented. These are the current measures employed to head off at the pass misuse of player cards but there are far more sophisticated measures coming.
link to original post

I would never take markers nor even use the card where I have to present ID (like picking up a comped toaster).

As for security measures in the future, sometimes they kill a play, often I find they open up more doors

Or as I like to say, "the casino shut the doors but opened the windows".

Quote: darkoz

Using another person players card WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission is about the same as driving another person's car WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission.

If you can't grasp why, it beats me
link to original post

You are too close to the situation to make a good analogy. How about this.... Using another person's prescription narcotics WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission..... You realize YOU do NOT have the right to give another person 'permission' to use YOUR prescription narcotics? It won't be theft, but it will be some other crime.....
In our society you do NOT have the inalienable right to give something you own to someone else. Guns would be another easy example.

I am NOT saying what you do is illegal, by the way. What I am saying is if I were the one making the laws it would be. Intentionally using a card issued to to someone else without the permission of BOTH the named entity AND the casino/store is FRAUD. Some sort of misdemeanor in the land of SOOPOO.

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: darkoz

Using another person players card WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission is about the same as driving another person's car WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission.

If you can't grasp why, it beats me
link to original post

You are too close to the situation to make a good analogy. How about this.... Using another person's prescription narcotics WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission..... You realize YOU do NOT have the right to give another person 'permission' to use YOUR prescription narcotics? It won't be theft, but it will be some other crime.....
In our society you do NOT have the inalienable right to give something you own to someone else. Guns would be another easy example.

I am NOT saying what you do is illegal, by the way. What I am saying is if I were the one making the laws it would be. Intentionally using a card issued to to someone else without the permission of BOTH the named entity AND the casino/store is FRAUD. Some sort of misdemeanor in the land of SOOPOO.


link to original post

Would using someone's prescription inhaler with permission be a crime in Soopoolandia?

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: darkoz

Using another person players card WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission is about the same as driving another person's car WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission.

If you can't grasp why, it beats me
link to original post

You are too close to the situation to make a good analogy. How about this.... Using another person's prescription narcotics WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission..... You realize YOU do NOT have the right to give another person 'permission' to use YOUR prescription narcotics? It won't be theft, but it will be some other crime.....
In our society you do NOT have the inalienable right to give something you own to someone else. Guns would be another easy example.

I am NOT saying what you do is illegal, by the way. What I am saying is if I were the one making the laws it would be. Intentionally using a card issued to to someone else without the permission of BOTH the named entity AND the casino/store is FRAUD. Some sort of misdemeanor in the land of SOOPOO.
link to original post

I disagree that it should in any way be criminal, misdemeanor or otherwise. I can see it as a breach of contract claim for the casino against the person who’s player card it is, and against DarkOz if he has his own players card.

States have theft by deception laws. The fact it’s never resulted in a conviction for that anywhere tells everything.

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: darkoz

Using another person players card WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission is about the same as driving another person's car WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission.

If you can't grasp why, it beats me
link to original post

You are too close to the situation to make a good analogy. How about this.... Using another person's prescription narcotics WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission..... You realize YOU do NOT have the right to give another person 'permission' to use YOUR prescription narcotics? It won't be theft, but it will be some other crime.....
In our society you do NOT have the inalienable right to give something you own to someone else. Guns would be another easy example.

I am NOT saying what you do is illegal, by the way. What I am saying is if I were the one making the laws it would be. Intentionally using a card issued to to someone else without the permission of BOTH the named entity AND the casino/store is FRAUD. Some sort of misdemeanor in the land of SOOPOO.
link to original post

You are comparing controlled substances (ownership controlled by government for protection of citizen safety) such as guns and prescription drugs with uncontrolled substances like credit cards and casino cards.

The reason for sharing prescription drugs or guns is for safety of the general public. There is to my knowledge no such legal comparisons with fiduciary reasons.

I find a lot of people"think" this or that should be illegal when they simply aren't. I suppose this is one.

Quote: mcallister3200

States have theft by deception laws. The fact it’s never resulted in a conviction for that anywhere tells everything.
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So you mean, in casinos? because theft by trick convictions are sustained all the time.

Stop being intentionally obtuse you KNOW I’m referring to the players card issue when I say “it’s” and “for that.”

Quote: mcallister3200

States have theft by deception laws. The fact it’s never resulted in a conviction for that anywhere tells everything.
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If you purchase a television can you give to who you wish?

Of course. You fully own it.

If the casino gives you a free television can you give it away? Of course, because you still fully own it.

For the most part casino comps aren't even free. They are considered rebates on prior purchases (your rating).

If you collect the free TV without making a purchase and give it to me in the parking lot is it any different than if I just came to collect it myself?

Quote: darkoz

Quote: mcallister3200

States have theft by deception laws. The fact it’s never resulted in a conviction for that anywhere tells everything.
link to original post

If you purchase a television can you give to who you wish?

Of course. You fully own it.

If the casino gives you a free television can you give it away? Of course, because you still fully own it.

For the most part casino comps aren't even free. They are considered rebates on prior purchases (your rating).

If you collect the free TV without making a purchase and give it to me in the parking lot is it any different than if I just came to collect it myself?
link to original post

Ok maybe it wasn’t so obvious....why are you arguing with me for pointing out that it DOESN’T fall under theft by deception?

Quote: mcallister3200

Quote: darkoz

Quote: mcallister3200

States have theft by deception laws. The fact it’s never resulted in a conviction for that anywhere tells everything.
link to original post

If you purchase a television can you give to who you wish?

Of course. You fully own it.

If the casino gives you a free television can you give it away? Of course, because you still fully own it.

For the most part casino comps aren't even free. They are considered rebates on prior purchases (your rating).

If you collect the free TV without making a purchase and give it to me in the parking lot is it any different than if I just came to collect it myself?
link to original post

Ok maybe it wasn’t so obvious....why are you arguing with me for pointing out that it DOESN’T fall under theft by deception?
link to original post

Responding to multiple posters at once is all


It was clear to me you and I are in agreement.

Quote: billryan

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: darkoz

Using another person players card WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission is about the same as driving another person's car WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission.

If you can't grasp why, it beats me
link to original post

You are too close to the situation to make a good analogy. How about this.... Using another person's prescription narcotics WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission..... You realize YOU do NOT have the right to give another person 'permission' to use YOUR prescription narcotics? It won't be theft, but it will be some other crime.....
In our society you do NOT have the inalienable right to give something you own to someone else. Guns would be another easy example.

I am NOT saying what you do is illegal, by the way. What I am saying is if I were the one making the laws it would be. Intentionally using a card issued to to someone else without the permission of BOTH the named entity AND the casino/store is FRAUD. Some sort of misdemeanor in the land of SOOPOO.


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Would using someone's prescription inhaler with permission be a crime in Soopoolandia?
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Interesting question! No! In general, I am for individual responsibility. I would eliminate the need for a ‘prescription’ for most drugs. An asthmatic who has been on a rescue inhaler his entire life should not be required to get a prescription for that inhaler. Aspirin has as many if not more side effects but needs no prescription.

But I think I’m every state using the other person’s prescription inhaler is a no no.

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: darkoz

Using another person players card WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission is about the same as driving another person's car WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission.

If you can't grasp why, it beats me
link to original post

You are too close to the situation to make a good analogy. How about this.... Using another person's prescription narcotics WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission..... You realize YOU do NOT have the right to give another person 'permission' to use YOUR prescription narcotics? It won't be theft, but it will be some other crime.....
In our society you do NOT have the inalienable right to give something you own to someone else. Guns would be another easy example.

I am NOT saying what you do is illegal, by the way. What I am saying is if I were the one making the laws it would be. Intentionally using a card issued to to someone else without the permission of BOTH the named entity AND the casino/store is FRAUD. Some sort of misdemeanor in the land of SOOPOO.
link to original post

In the land of SOOPOO would you make it illegal to allow a friend the use of your credit card to fill up your gas tank, and then for you to use the miles/points/free gas earned from that purchase?

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: darkoz

Using another person players card WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission is about the same as driving another person's car WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission.

If you can't grasp why, it beats me
link to original post

You are too close to the situation to make a good analogy. How about this.... Using another person's prescription narcotics WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission..... You realize YOU do NOT have the right to give another person 'permission' to use YOUR prescription narcotics? It won't be theft, but it will be some other crime.....
In our society you do NOT have the inalienable right to give something you own to someone else. Guns would be another easy example.

I am NOT saying what you do is illegal, by the way. What I am saying is if I were the one making the laws it would be. Intentionally using a card issued to to someone else without the permission of BOTH the named entity AND the casino/store is FRAUD. Some sort of misdemeanor in the land of SOOPOO.
link to original post

In the land of SOOPOO would you make it illegal to allow a friend the use of your credit card to fill up your gas tank, and then for you to use the miles/points/free gas earned from that purchase?
link to original post

Yes. But I don’t do that. All my friends have their own credit cards and want the points for themselves.

Quote: darkoz

Using another person players card WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission is about the same as driving another person's car WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission.

If you can't grasp why, it beats me
link to original post

I presume you have a player's card or 560 nearby.

I just checked the boilerplate disclaimers on the back of about a dozen of mine.

For the most part, they all say right on them, some collection of the following (paraphrased) points:

• This card remains the property of (casino)
• Non-transferrable
• Use is authorized by the named individual only
• Subject to (casino's) terms and conditions, which we can change whenever

So, it seems pretty clear that the casino can justifiably say "We gave this card to darkoz to use; Dieter, you're not supposed to use it", take the card from me, show me the parking lot, and express their sincere desire for me to have a nice day somewhere else.

Fraud charges and arrest would seem harsh.
Flagging the account and zeroing the offers (DNI) would be annoying, but within their rights.


To continue the car analogy, yeah, I have a right to be annoyed if Joe loans you my car.

Quote: Dieter

Quote: darkoz

Using another person players card WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission is about the same as driving another person's car WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission.

If you can't grasp why, it beats me
link to original post

I presume you have a player's card or 560 nearby.

I just checked the boilerplate disclaimers on the back of about a dozen of mine.

For the most part, they all say right on them, some collection of the following (paraphrased) points:

• This card remains the property of (casino)
• Non-transferrable
• Use is authorized by the named individual only
• Subject to (casino's) terms and conditions, which we can change whenever

So, it seems pretty clear that the casino can justifiably say "We gave this card to darkoz to use; Dieter, you're not supposed to use it", take the card from me, show me the parking lot, and express their sincere desire for me to have a nice day somewhere else.

Fraud charges and arrest would seem harsh.
Flagging the account and zeroing the offers (DNI) would be annoying, but within their rights.


To continue the car analogy, yeah, I have a right to be annoyed if Joe loans you my car.
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Yes, those are terms and conditions of the club.

There seems some disconnect over what terms and conditions set by any business are versus laws set by the state.

For example it may be terms of service that shoes and shirt must be worn at all times. If you insist on not wearing them, as you are violating the properties terms, they can ask you to leave.

But they can't surround you and hold you until the police arrive to charge you with not wearing shoes and shirt.

(This is where someone will say it's not an inalienable right to take off your clothes because if you run around butt naked you get arrested).

I constantly violate the terms and conditions of casinos. I break all their rules. And I don't care!

What I don't do is break any laws so when the casino catches me, the worst they can do is trespass me and cut my offers

Jail time is off the table.

Quote: Dieter

Quote: darkoz

Using another person players card WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission is about the same as driving another person's car WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission.

If you can't grasp why, it beats me
link to original post

I presume you have a player's card or 560 nearby.

I just checked the boilerplate disclaimers on the back of about a dozen of mine.

For the most part, they all say right on them, some collection of the following (paraphrased) points:

• This card remains the property of (casino)
• Non-transferrable
• Use is authorized by the named individual only
• Subject to (casino's) terms and conditions, which we can change whenever

So, it seems pretty clear that the casino can justifiably say "We gave this card to darkoz to use; Dieter, you're not supposed to use it", take the card from me, show me the parking lot, and express their sincere desire for me to have a nice day somewhere else.

Fraud charges and arrest would seem harsh.
Flagging the account and zeroing the offers (DNI) would be annoying, but within their rights.


To continue the car analogy, yeah, I have a right to be annoyed if Joe loans you my car.
link to original post

And you are pretty spot on, this is almost what happens 99.9% of the times someone is caught using another’s card.

I have never seen in many years as a security employee/supervisor a Casino patron arrested for the simple use of another person’s card unless it was tied to something else much more “criminal’ and then the charges still didn’t include using another’s card. Unless it was were the person created cards. But then that is sheer criminal and not the use of another’s card, such as a friend or family member loaning his card out.

We've had this debate before.

To the best of my knowledge all casinos say player club cards cannot be used by others.

And to the best of my knowledge I dont know of any law saying using another's casino card is a crime.

This can easily be resolved. If you believe it's a crime cite the law.

I remember checking the Nevada Gaming Regulations and I found nothing about using someone else's card to be a crime or even a violation.

Again, casinos can have their own club rules.

Quote: AlanMendelson

We've had this debate before.

To the best of my knowledge all casinos say player club cards cannot be used by others.

And to the best of my knowledge I dont know of any law saying using another's casino card is a crime.

This can easily be resolved. If you believe it's a crime cite the law.

I remember checking the Nevada Gaming Regulations and I found nothing about using someone else's card to be a crime or even a violation.

Again, casinos can have their own club rules.
link to original post

In other states people have been arrested for using other peoples cards with that person's permission and had significant legal bills. I don't know if anyone has ever been prosecuted. From what I know it's always been settled, dropped, or pleased down.

Quote: AlanMendelson

We've had this debate before.

To the best of my knowledge all casinos say player club cards cannot be used by others.

And to the best of my knowledge I dont know of any law saying using another's casino card is a crime.

This can easily be resolved. If you believe it's a crime cite the law.

I remember checking the Nevada Gaming Regulations and I found nothing about using someone else's card to be a crime or even a violation.

Again, casinos can have their own club rules.
link to original post

In other states people have been arrested for using other peoples cards with that person's permission and had significant legal bills. I don't know if anyone has ever been prosecuted. From what I know it's always been settled, dropped, or pleased down.

Quote: AlanMendelson

We've had this debate before.

To the best of my knowledge all casinos say player club cards cannot be used by others.

And to the best of my knowledge I dont know of any law saying using another's casino card is a crime.

This can easily be resolved. If you believe it's a crime cite the law.

I remember checking the Nevada Gaming Regulations and I found nothing about using someone else's card to be a crime or even a violation.

Again, casinos can have their own club rules.
link to original post

Yes, you are correct as far as I know and every been told or read by memo from corporate council and management. I would really like to see any state criminal law statute cited defining the crime.

The "crime" usually is grouped under state laws called "Access Device" and is described as any device such as a card or pin activated mechanism whereby a company entitles a customer to temporary access to their electronic systems.

This groups credit cards with shoppers club cards and with casino cards.

These laws usually state that it IS a crime for anyone who is NOT authorized by the lending company to use the access device WITHOUT the express permission of the person authorized to use the access device.

The wording is usually something similar to that

Translation:. It's illegal to use someone else's player's card WITHOUT their permission!

Translation: It's NOT illegal to use it WITH their permission.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: AlanMendelson

We've had this debate before.

To the best of my knowledge all casinos say player club cards cannot be used by others.

And to the best of my knowledge I dont know of any law saying using another's casino card is a crime.

This can easily be resolved. If you believe it's a crime cite the law.

I remember checking the Nevada Gaming Regulations and I found nothing about using someone else's card to be a crime or even a violation.

Again, casinos can have their own club rules.
link to original post

In other states people have been arrested for using other peoples cards with that person's permission and had significant legal bills. I don't know if anyone has ever been prosecuted. From what I know it's always been settled, dropped, or pleased down.
link to original post

I haven't been in every state but I know Pennsylvania was a state of contention at one point.

A group of people were arrested and charged with using other people's cards. This came PRIOR to my own backroom at a Pennsylvania casino and once I proved I had the players permission was released same day with no arrest.

The people who did get arrested in the Pennsylvania case either were doing something different (uploading freeplay from employees or stealing pins) or didn't have the support of the players(that is the people whose cards they used didn't admit to giving permission to use the cards).

"Not illegal" doesn't mean you won't experience a pain in the neck hassle from the ensuing ordeal.

Quote: Dieter

"Not illegal" doesn't mean you won't experience a pain in the neck hassle from the ensuing ordeal.
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Even a dream vacation can become a pain in the neck ordeal.

Comps being turned off and sudden backrooms are part of the AP experience. I know what to expect and how to handle them.

Police officers may get shot in the line of duty. Soldiers in our army may get sent off to wars to return maimed or in body bags. Football players may get career cut short by broken bones.

You pick your career and deal with the consequences.

In my case the worst is a backroom, trespassing and offers I worked hard to obtain denied by the casino.

It's all baked in

I suppose when one makes $20,000 a week, one must put up with the minor inconveniences.

Quote: billryan

I suppose when one makes $20,000 a week, one must put up with the minor inconveniences.
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Exactly. DarkOz has found a lucrative career, but it is not all roses. Some of it is the thorns attached. My career had 24 hour shifts. Not as bad as being backroomed, but it sucked.