Should a priest gamble?

Quote: kp

Isn't judging others and telling them how to live their lives one of the primary foundations of religion?

Depends on how you look at it...or your "beliefs" if you will!

Quote: FleaStiff

Now if you are asking about moral correctness,

I'm not sure that he is not doing that. He opened the thread with a quote from the Catechism that said that gambling is okay under normal circumstances. So, the Catechism says its usually okay and the Bible doesn't mention the subject. Thus no scriptural problem. I thought that FrGamble was mainly concerned about what his parishioners would think.

I don't know a lot about Catholic clergy, but don't they all take a vow of poverty? Isn't their housing provided by the church? How much to they get paid, and is the payment expected to cover essentials, entertainment, or both? And, lastly, do their paychecks originate in their own church's collection baskets, or from the Nazi and Mesoamerican gold reserves in the Vatican?

I don't have a problem with you spending your own wage on gambling as entertainment. However, a few thoughts:

-- Ownership: Nothing is yours. It all belongs to God, who graciously lets you manage his assets. On the other hand, a worker is worthy of his wage, and all things are lawful..

-- Accountability: How will you know if you have pushed it too close to the "line" between entertainment and vice? I think you should have an open book with at least one, but if possible more, trusted friend(s) regarding your gambling budget and spending.

-- Advantage Play: While I agree with Paigowdan on many things, I'll split with him on this one. You are charged to be shrewed as a serpent in this area. Use every gift the good Lord has given you to count, and count well. It is good stewardship. However, this type of play means hours of study and practice, as well as time spent grinding through hours of mixed shoes waiting for an actionable advantage. Does your allocation of time toward this hobby allow it?

-- The Weaker Brother: While it may be allowed, will your participation cause a weaker brother to stumble? You are held to a higher standard than your flock, but I think you can edify them by not hiding nor disguising your gaming pursuits. Your extra abundance of accountability and caution in this area can be a great example of having fun in moderation.

Quote: Ayecarumba

-- Advantage Play: While I agree with Paigowdan on many things, I'll split with him on this one. You are charged to be shrewed as a serpent in this area. Use every gift the good Lord has given you to count, and count well. It is good stewardship. However, this type of play means hours of study and practice, as well as time spent grinding through hours of mixed shoes waiting for an actionable advantage. Does your allocation of time toward this hobby allow it?

Okay, okay....if FrGamble sees Blackjack card counting as okay, with no ethical pastoral or personal issue, then fine. WTH. Sometimes my own high horse growls at me, as he's reading this board, too. But if FrG marks/daubs cards, or hole cards, or pinches and caps bets, etc. (which are mortal gambling sins that cross the line,) I'll personally track down and fax the incident report to his Bishop and the Vatican. We all have to live by NGCB standards somewhere.
Edit: would Jesus count? Should one who enters "persona Christi" do so? Good Question for FrG.

Quote: Ayecarumba

-- The Weaker Brother: While it may be allowed, will your participation cause a weaker brother to stumble? You are held to a higher standard than your flock, but I think you can edify them by not hiding nor disguising your gaming pursuits. Your extra abundance of accountability and caution in this area can be a great example of having fun in moderation.

Good! Absolutely. Opus Dei might shudder, a little different that Dorothy Day. Puritanism should not be a Catholic thing, IMO.

Quote: Paigowdan

2. Don't wear the collar at the tables: civilian clothes.

Well, it is a vacation and a festive occasion, but I see nothing wrong with wearing a clerical collar at the time. Depends if you would wear it to a party or not. Not much difference between "You Going Out, Honey" and "You Going Out, Padre".

Quote: Paigowdan

How so?
EB sounds pretty intolerant and "off-the-mark" about casinos and casino gambling to me, perhaps to many of us, and at a gamblers' forum of all places.
I am pro-gambling. I am anti-cheating, anti-breaking the house rules, and anti-shot takers, which are actually anti-gambling acts.
A lot of us think EB's an absolute feather weight on all things gaming, to avoid using other adjectives and abverbs that may be inflamatory.

I'm not saying I agree with him; I made my observations in one of the very first answers. I'm saying that he's making a very good counter argument. If there is good counter argument to be made, within the parameters and limits that FrGamble has accepted for his life, EvenBob has framed it very pointedly. It's OK for him to go down that road. It's also OK to disagree, and say why, as many have done to good effect.

Isn't judging others and telling them how to live their lives one of the primary foundations of religion?

Quote: Paigowdan

Not in Buddhism (where letting others "live and let live" without religious judgement is extremely Buddhist),

I like the sound of this Buddhism.

Quote: Paigowdan

not in so-called Christiandom where we have separation of church and state, and not in any religion that doesn't try to impose honor killings on family members or Sharia law and their courts and goon squads on the populace.

Doesn't Christiandom say that if you sin that you will go to hell, and then define the sins?
This a telling you how to live, and then pronouncing judgment if you break their rules.

Quote: Mosca

I'm not saying I agree with him; I made my observations in one of the very first answers. I'm saying that he's making a very good counter argument. If there is good counter argument to be made, within the parameters and limits that FrGamble has accepted for his life, EvenBob has framed it very pointedly. It's OK for him to go down that road. It's also OK to disagree, and say why, as many have done to good effect.

Fine, it is indeed okay to go down that road, play devil's advocate and all that. But I thought EvenBob framed it in a very base manner, with very weak, accusatory, and ignorant arguments, - and simply for the purpose of sometimes being pointlessly inflamatory. My POV. Just not helpful, kind of like a Jerry Logan #2, and I say this with concern.
Comments like "To squander both [percious time and money] in a casino seems unproductive in the extreme, and beneath someone who others in the Church look to for guidance. " Squander? One can argue that his comments are quite ignorant and biased:
One can also argue that expensive shows, fancy dinners, and even having fun at a go-cart park are utter "squandering" or wasteful of money and not providing of personal growth when simply looking for entertainment - as one has an absolute zero chance of "winning back" the purchase price if the experience was not fun or providing of "action," or providing of "spititual growth."
Quite simply, EvenBob is openly condescending and ridiculing of gambling and the gaming industry as never a sort of a legitimate pasttime or recreation, which is the opposite of what we gamblers and we people in the gaming industry embody without any salient arguments from him...so who exactly is he to say otherwise? And at a Gambler's forum filled with gamblers, gaming industry workers, and support personal no less. One can argue that EvenBob is just shamelessly "baiting" a captive audience a la Jerry Logan, which is an abuse of a dedicated forum. As pointed out by Finsrule, one can also point out religion as a "crock industry of superstition of wars, judgemental oppression, and the imposition of discrimination and abuse" to non-believers or even believers of other faiths (aka "we are all infidels if you do not believe as I happen to do!") - if one wanted to do this also, - quite easily in fact! I judge neither a casino dealer nor a priest without knowing his actions, as most well-balanced people carry out, too.

Now, his view of Gaming as a valid career choice - whether for dealers, executives, and support personal like lawyers and mathematicians, EvenBob said:
"OK, tell me how flushing your money down the toilet by giving it to the casino is productive. Tell me how it advances careers, or gives you a higher standing in
the community."

One can argue that spending for movies is just flushing cash down the toilet, as all you do is sit in a seat in a darken house and just watch images flicker on a screen, some of which can be violent, anti-social, racist, hostile, and what you, shamelessly manipulating your emotions from a reel of plastic that a light shines through. Talk about an opportunity for mind control and brain-washing that people pay for! This can be claimed for Hollywood and the film industry, and has indeed. And that gaming and casinos provides for useless and blood-sucking careers that do not advance anything or anyone, and provides no useful social utility.

EvenBob selects his targets to hack, and he had come here. Believe me, I have sometimes found the casino table games environment a very social recreational milieu among players who operate on a high level (such as FrGamble), as well as an opportunity to provide need socialization or even home-training life lessons to needy shot takers and cheats at the hands of "fair but no bullshit" pit crews and security personal explaining the facts of adult life, - and everything in-between. "You can learn MORE of a person's true character in a hour of play than in a lifetime of conversation," and this is a quote from the great and ancient philosopher Plato.

As for KP's quip that "Doesn't Christiandom say that if you sin that you will go to hell, and then define the sins?
This a telling you how to live, and then pronouncing judgment if you break their rules."
No, that's what KP himself offered here, quite different. Some people feel that religious or spiritual teachings simply explain that "How you live and where you go in this life and the next is what you can choose," - is a very reasonable alternative view and approach within the same religion discussed. I have never had a Mormon or Jehova's witness put a machete to my neck and say, "You infidel, I will kill you if you do not submit to my beliefs." They've said, "Here's some religious literature you might be interested in; read it if you want, and if you have any questions, we're here for you with this way of life, if it's for you." I always said, "no, thanks anyway."

Sorry to arrive late. I, of course, approve of a priest, or anybody, gambling. Moderation is the key. Nobody has ever produced one verse in the bible specifically addressing the morality of gambling to me. Given the lack of direction, I assume that god leaves the decision up to us. I might also add that the Catholic church, as well as others, offer church bingo.

Does anyone ever confess gambling in confession? If so, what is the penance/response?

Quote: Paigowdan

As for KP's quip that "Doesn't Christiandom say that if you sin that you will go to hell, and then define the sins?
This a telling you how to live, and then pronouncing judgment if you break their rules."
No, that's what KP himself offered here, quite different.

I will admit that I am very ignorant of religious doctrines, and especially the differences between one religion and another. It has been my uneducated belief that (some) religions try to dictate how their flock should behave. Recent discussions here have served to reinforce that belief when I read things about Mormons and caffeine, but that's what I get for reading things off the internet. I even saw a movie once where some religious guy went out to the desert (not Vegas), talked to a bush (not George (senior or junior)), and came back with a set of rules for the people to follow. But, again, that was just Hollywood, and not something based upon theological studies.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand, on a related note, somewhat facetious but also a bit serious, if a priest does go gambling in a casino, should he be praying for a hard 8, or an ace, or a 27 black, or other winning twist of fate? If you have an inside track with God, should you be asking Him for help on something as frivolous as the outcome of a wager?

Quote: Paigowdan

Fine, it is indeed okay to go down that road, play devil's advocate and all that. But I thought EvenBob framed it in a very base manner, with very weak, accusatory, and ignorant arguments, - and simply for the purpose of sometimes being pointlessly inflamatory. My POV. Just not helpful, kind of like a Jerry Logan #2, and I say this with concern.

Oh, no doubt there is some tweaking going on. I ignored that, it's just Bob being Bob. I thought there was some real food for thought in his argument, and I also think that it has been nicely handled by the counter arguments, including some of your own.

I work with Mormons in the Gaming industry - a practice that is forbidden to them as a personal outlet. (I don't find it hypocritical: there are male doctors who are gynocologists, and female doctors who are urologists.) In the break room, I'll have a cup of coffee while they drink caffeine-free soda in the break room, and I never felt their personal choice was an issue, as they could care less about my coffee cup. They never imposed their "anti-coffee beliefs" on me, as they never judge me or themselves in the running of a dice game as part of the job. No one ever even noticed or remotely judged people on this stuff.

I don't think priests or monks have an inroad to God as to have the dice roll a certain way while playing. I've seen some very strange wins stave off a foreclosure like an answered prayer from God without it being asked, and others lose their asses while praying during playing. "Ask and Ye Shall Receive" as a prayer during a crap game is likely to be answered by God as just "No, don't you now scared money doesn't win?" most times. Don't ask or expect it, and a jackpot win might side-swipe you out of the blue.

If you pray during gambling, it ain't gambling, just like if you DON'T pray at a Mass, it isn't a Mass for you. IMO.

Quote: Mosca

Oh, no doubt there is some tweaking going on. I ignored that, it's just Bob being Bob. I thought there was some real food for thought in his argument, and I also think that it has been nicely handled by the counter arguments, including some of your own.

Nothing against the guy, but I occasionally feel there a bit of eye-poking, and less "presentation/development of a cogent argument." Maybe it's just how Bob's style is, "shoot from the hip and lip," and he's not a monster in my opinion. Me, I can rant, but good points and arguments as to why it is or is not are important, not just it being: "Casinos are evil" or "The Casino is your Friend" (our mutual positions) without the "Whys and Hows" of it all.

Quote: Paigowdan

In the break room, I'll have a cup of coffee while they drink caffeine-free soda in the break room, and I never felt their personal choice was an issue, as they could care less about my coffee cup. They never imposed their "anti-coffee beliefs" on me, as they never judge me or themselves in the running of a dice game as part of the job. No one ever even noticed or remotely judged people on this stuff.

Are you Mormon? If not, I don't see why they would care about your personal choices or you would care about theirs.

If you are Mormon, then why are you drinking caffeinated coffee? Doesn't part of being a Mormon require that you avoid caffeinated beverages (the control aspect) and by drinking caffeine you are being a bad Mormon (the judging aspect).

When I say the religions control actions or judge, I'm talking about the religious leaders or doctrines and followers of that religion, not the bystanders or followers of a different religion. The same could be said for the laws and members of any group or society.

But we're getting way off subject.

Paigowdan - I think it's more of a sin for him NOT to count. I'm assuming that at least 10% of his winnings would go back to the Church. A casino won't donate that much to charity. Therefore, since card counting is legal and not against any rules I'm aware of, I think he has a moral responsibility to count so that he will win money and benefit more people.

Quote: kp

Are you Mormon? If not, I don't see why they would care about your personal choices or you would care about theirs.

We don't - that's the point. So it certainly shouldn't be an issue with FrGamble.

As for me, No, I'm of Jewish and Protestant origins (Icelandic mother), from New York originally, and not religious, certainly not Mormon. I drink coffee, I gamble, etc.
I work with some Mormons, and they seem very fine, very well-adjusted, and very nice, functional people.
I don't believe in their doctorines (Jesus visited the Americas, the Gold Plates of Moroni scriptures, and that alcohol, gambling, and even coffee is always a bad thing.)
I remark that they work in Gaming, are around booze and coffee and gamblers all the time, and they never seem to have a problem with the environment, or with other people or what other people do, though they abstain from it all themselves as a personal religious choice without interest or Judgement on others - or themselves..

Quote: kp

I'm talking about the religious leaders or doctrines and followers of that religion, not the bystanders or followers of a different religion.

Bystanders of followers of different religions often receive or cause conflict among the main religious group, particularly being a Christian in Muslim lands, a muslim in Western China, a Hindu or Sikh in Pakistan, etc.

Some horrible things occur when intolerance or "consciousness" of religious aspects are needlessly brought into the picture, (as is a part of the thread's discussion), and some wonderful tolerance happens when the rejection of "religious applications" occur, like being a religious Mormon running casinos in Nevada, or being a Buddhist monk in some very hedonistic parts of Thailand.

In this regard, if a religious Mormon can run a casino gaming pit as a career - while being mortal sin for him or her to ever personally partake - where it is not allowed, then for Father Gamble to gamble - as a Catholic Priest where moderate gambling and drinking and a good cigar is allowed in his faith, then if it no problem for the Mormon, it should be fine for FrGamble.

What is striking the lack of concern or judgement that religious Mormons embody in this environment - so as long as their faith and practices are steadfastly maintained, then it should be fine for FrGamble.

Quote: FinsRule

Paigowdan - I think it's more of a sin for him NOT to count.

??!!..wow....

Quote: FinsRule

I'm assuming that at least 10% of his winnings would go back to the Church.

Why? This isn't a church bingo, it's at an external gaming corporation's operation and a priest's discretionary entertainment money, - not a business venture for the Catholic Church. As such, the Casino's house rules should be followed by all, especially by the priest and the casino, to including the backing-off and expulsive of card-counters regardless of religious affiliation. It's bad enough that the Taliban exports Afghan Heroin to fund their "religious charities" (to include terrorism); while not quite as ethically questionable, card-counting casino profits funding Catholic Church charity operations would be at the very least, still ethically qustionable, IMO.

Quote: FinsRule

A casino won't donate that much to charity. Therefore, since card counting is legal and not against any rules I'm aware of, I think he has a moral responsibility to count so that he will win money and benefit more people.

Station Casinos gives to Charity, name the Clark County School District, but avoids religion-affiliated charities.
Card-counting is OPENLY against the casino's house rules, even if it is not an issue for the Metropolitan Police department.
Again, for a Christian Clergyman to violate the ground rules of the casino concerning a gambling game's proper good faith operation would be an ethical question for the Padre.

Edit: any money won in straight game play (no casino rule-breaking) can be spent as anyone sees fit: home improvement, gas money, shopping, whatever. And have fun winning at gambling. But the concept of a clergyman counting cards in violation of a casino's ground rules for charity is weird.

Does that mean in a couple of weeks when I'm in the Golden Nugget, I should be able to get a copy of the house rules for black jack, and it will state I am not allowed to count the cards? Or similar wording?

I'm just curious.

Tithing is not part of Catholic doctrine, not even informally.

I understand, Dan. It comes across differently to me, is all I'll say. Keep in mind, I only read about 5% of everything on the forum, so my summed history might be different from yours.

Quote: Paigowdan

It's bad enough that the Taliban exports Afghan Heroin to fund their "religious charities" (to include terrorism); while not quite as ethically questionable, card-counting casino profits funding Catholic Church charity operations would be at the very least, still ethically qustionable, IMO.

Wow. A card counting priest is on par with the Taliban dealing heroin to fund terrorism. Someone needs to cut back on the kool-aid.

I gotta thank Ayecarumba for his insistence on accountability. In the life of a priest this is especially important as I do not have a wife who would be able to notice quickly if things get out of hand. It is essential for me to be an open book to my spiritual director and confessor as well as share my gambling expenses with a few good friends. I do tithe (a word unfortunately unfamiliar to most Catholic parishioners) and I see any winnings as subject to my commitment to help with charitable outreach, I don't see that as strange and I'm not uncomfortable with it.

Would Jesus count cards? I think the answer is yes. I was attracted to gambling because of the challenge it presented in trying to lower the house edge as much as possible and make the best bets. it should go without saying that this excludes any and all forms of cheating! I am not convinced at all that counting cards is cheating. However, the casinos have nothing to worry about from me right now, I'm still struggling with the ace-five count.

Finally, the Wizard asked about confession including gambling. As you may know breaking the seal of confession is grounds for an immediate excommunication so I have to be careful in answering this one. Let's just say a dark side don't player would rue the day he went to me for confession, the penance would be one Hail Mary for every dollar won (just kidding, ha, ha)!
Thanks so much for everyone's perspective.

Quote: FrGamble

Would Jesus count cards? I think the answer is yes.

Once casinos offer all their games (for instance, slots) with odds posted, I'll reconsider Paigowdan's argument about a casino being a fair arbiter of games and that counting is unethical.

Why my little old grandmother (just sayin') could have lost all her money thinking the 3 reel slot she played last week played the same as the one she played when it took all her social security and cat food money 'cause it was set real low return in the same bank of machines.

Quote: FrGamble

Finally, the Wizard asked about confession including gambling. As you may know breaking the seal of confession is grounds for an immediate excommunication so I have to be careful in answering this one. Let's just say a dark side don't player would rue the day he went to me for confession, the penance would be one Hail Mary for every dollar won (just kidding, ha, ha)!
Thanks so much for everyone's perspective.

Thanks, I understand. I know from Law & Order that anything said in confidence to a person of the cloth is afforded great protection.

Let me take a moment and welcome you to the forum, and I'm honored to say that I can count a priest as one of my members. In the past I've been a bit confrontational about religion, but I promised myself to tone to down after my last rant. In fact, as a self-imposed penance I am going to write a post next week saying something good about a Catholicism.

Again, welcome, stick around a while. Sorry to stray from the topic, please go back to it.

Quote: Paigowdan

A lot of us think EB's an absolute feather weight on all things gaming.

Yeah? Be specific. Give examples. Back up what you're saying.

Quote: FrGamble

Would Jesus count cards? I think the answer is yes.

Based on what? Where in scripture do you see a leaning
towards casting lots or any form of gambling being an
approved activity?

Bottom line is, you know your responsibility in the religious
community as far as casino gambling goes. Coming here
and asking the question is like going on a deer hunting forum
and asking if they like venison burger. Try going on one
of the forums for Catholic discussions and pose your question.

double post

Quote: Paigowdan

1. You can leave with more more than what you came in with

Is that why 95% of gamblers leave with less than they came in with?

Tell me how it advances careers.

>>Well, for starters: dealer -> floorman -> Pit Boss -> Shift Manager -> Casino Manager. This is along with other gaming professions like game designer, production manager, patent lawyer, and gaming mathematician.>>

You can say the same thing about the Mafia. So what.

>>Addiction Counselor -> Shift manager at a rehab -> Rehab Manager -> 12 step Self-help guru, etc.>>

More positive contributions by the casino.

>>A Shift Manager or Casino Manager has a lot higher standing in the community than most professions: Cab driver, cook, Bus driver, secretary, car wash attendant, etc. Forget about Being a Casinos OWNER....
At a cocktail party, would you rather answer a hot chick's question of "Well, handsome - what do YOU do?" with "Oh - I work at Pizza Hut!" or "I manage the Hard Rock Casino!">>

Again, the Mafia can talk the same talk.

>>Bob rants on Casinos and Casino workers, yet he rambles on here at a Gambler's forum, and probably gambles himself.>>

Nope, if I don't know for a fact if I'll win, I don't play. Why bother..
As another dealer on another forum says, casinos sell dreams and
bullshit in equal amounts, and you get what you pay for.

Quote: Paigowdan

Card-counting is OPENLY against the casino's house rules, even if it is not an issue for the Metropolitan Police department.

thecesspit asked the same question that occurred to me. I know you go on about how card counting is "wrong" in so many ways and for so many reasons but now you've stated that it is OPENLY against the casino house rules. Please define "house rules". Is there an actual hard copy of these rules I might find in a casino (or more specifically, your casino)? When EvenBob makes things up I gloss over it because it's expected but I hope you're actually stating fact and not just saying what you think should be so.

Let me get this straight--A casino offers to the general public a game of skill that it believes will be profitable. No one forces the casino to do this. But if a person has any skill at the game of skill, perhaps by counting, it is against the unpublished house rules and the person may then be barred, backroomed, handcuffed, and kidnapped by the casino while waiting for the police to cart him/her off to jail for the crime of using his/her brain in the game of skill. A more fortunate player is simply told that he/she can no longer play the game while others with lesser skills may play, even though the casino is open to the general public. In some cases the offending player is told that he/she may not vary the size of the wager in the game in spite of the fact there is a sign on the playing surface that states the minimum and maximum bets allowed. This, of course, means the casino is violating its own published rules.

If Paigowdan believes that the forgoing is in anyway justified, I suggest that he has swallowed the corporate pill and his brain is addled.

To keep this thread on topic--FrGamble, do you really want to enter into this lion's den?

Quote: matilda

Let me get this straight--A casino offers to the general public a game of skill that it believes will be profitable. No one forces the casino to do this. But if a person has any skill at the game of skill, perhaps by counting, it is against the unpublished house rules and the person may then be barred, backroomed, handcuffed, and kidnapped by the casino while waiting for the police to cart him/her off to jail for the crime of using his/her brain in the game of skill.

You got it. The casinos defense is, its presenting an
entertainment venue, not a way for someone to
make a living at their expense. They want your money,
they want all your money, and they want it every
time you come in. Casinos consider the people who
lose money in their casinos to be suckers. They
consider people who consistently win to be criminals
and cheats, even when they're not cheating. Card
counters in their books are listed as cheats, and are
right alongside the real cheaters. The casino see's
no difference between them.

Quote: EvenBob

Is that why 95% of gamblers leave with less than they came in with?

Not true, again EvenBob doesn't know the facts and stats -
1. 80% of gamblers' sessions have points in which they are ahead, comfortably ahead - could be more aptly put as, "they WERE ahead." That's the thing. Human excitement and avarice turn wining sessions into losing sessions; player lose it back, then "chase" losses. There were times my wife came to me at a table (Sunset Station, Cannery, etc.) and said, looking at my pile of chips: "Dan, we're leaving NOW" (she who must be obeyed...) with my response being "I can't! I'm $2,000 ahead, and had only been playing for three hours...." The fact of the matter is that gambling itself can be intoxicating.
2. The statistics on "Table Hold" - or the amount of money a casino table game actually keeps averages 25%, not anywhere near the 95% range. So three-quarters of the tables' buy-in money - 75% is won right back out and is cashed out to the players. If you don't think this is true, you can read the stats yourselves from the Missouri gaming commission right here at Missouri Gaming Statistics Click on Riverboat Revenue, drop down table on Slot/Table Payout Percentages.
3. Even if it were 95% (which it is not), also note that 100% of movie patrons, 100% of restaurant patrons, 100% of show patrons, 100% of amusement park patrons, 100% of any other entertainment venue - 100% of patrons leave with "less money than they came in with." Ture?

Quote: thecesspit

Does that mean in a couple of weeks when I'm in the Golden Nugget, I should be able to get a copy of the house rules for black jack, and it will state I am not allowed to count the cards? Or similar wording? I'm just curious.

Yes, you can. It's printed right on the table:
1. Dealer draws until 17, hits soft 17.
2. Insurance Pays 2:1.
3. Anything else that you feel you can do that isn't officially printed on the table (e.g., mark cards with invisible ink, use a miniature camera on the table to view hole cards, or count cards) the friendly floorman, pit boss, or security guard will advise you on.

Quote: heather

There is a story, certainly apocryphal but sometimes presented as fact, that Roulette was invented by a priest or a monk who was trying to raise money for his church/monastery. He was successful in what I suppose may have been the very first Casino Night fundraiser (a tradition that my local Catholic churches seem to be interested in maintaining, FWIW, albeit without games as expensive to set up as roulette, and always with terrible table limits). The cleric then became obsessed with beating the wheel, and spent the rest of his life trying to come up with a system that would allow him to do so, possibly at the expense of his own reputation. Incidentally, this is how we know the story is apocryphal; as the cleric himself would have been the House, he would have already had a system guaranteed to leave him ahead built right into the game in the form of HE.

That apocrypha is usually told about Blaise Pascal. He was not a cleric, but (later in his life) was a devout Catholic, and has written many works on Catholic philosophy.
He is said to have invented roulette as a byproduct of trying to invent a perpetual motion machine.
The last part of the story usually goes differently though - his invention quickly gained popularity, and has been adopted by several casinos, and he indeed became obsessed with beating it ... and he did (the primitive wheels had many imperfections, and he would be able to find bias in each of them), and got banned from all casinos in France.

Quote: matilda

Let me get this straight--A casino offers to the general public a game of skill that it believes will be profitable. No one forces the casino to do this. But if a person has any skill at the game of skill, perhaps by counting, it is against the unpublished house rules and the person may then be barred, backroomed, handcuffed, and kidnapped by the casino while waiting for the police to cart him/her off to jail for the crime of using his/her brain in the game of skill. A more fortunate player is simply told that he/she can no longer play the game while others with lesser skills may play, even though the casino is open to the general public. In some cases the offending player is told that he/she may not vary the size of the wager in the game in spite of the fact there is a sign on the playing surface that states the minimum and maximum bets allowed. This, of course, means the casino is violating its own published rules.

If Paigowdan believes that the forgoing is in anyway justified, I suggest that he has swallowed the corporate pill and his brain is addled.

To keep this thread on topic--FrGamble, do you really want to enter into this lion's den?

Matilda is a little overboard on this: backrooming, slapdowns, "Casino Kidnappings" - etc.

1. Casino cheats (those who get caught marking cards, pinching and capping bets, using devices to cheat slot machines and table games), may get detained by security, or get a warning by the shift manager, or even held for the police, much in the same way someone may get held by police if they are caught with a jamming device on a bank's ATM machine would also be held by security guards for the police. This is actually not unreasonable, my fellow gamblers. Really, this is what is done. There are NO backroom slapdowns, goon squad work overs, etc., like we saw in the recent movie "21" that half of us believe here. Defraud a casino or bank of money by open cheating, a security guard detains you for a police pickup with surveillance and statement evidence, and everyone calls their lawyers. That's it. No goon squads, or kidnappings, what have you. The good old days are gone!

2. Blackjack Card counting is against the casino house rules everywhere here in Nevada, but it is not Police matter. It is a casino matter to deny you service on this, flat bet you, or to ask you to leave. You are asked to play another game, or are asked to leave, and if a repeat offender, you do go into a "book" of known offenders. It is considered like showing up to a Buffett luncheon with a six-gallon Tupperwear container and saying, "Oh, I'm just taking home a little doggie bag!" For the record, I don't think Jesus would do either this OR count cards. It's just a non-starter. And people will honestly state, "But it DID say all you can eat??!! I do not see WHY I can't take a six gallon tub and LOAD UP??!!" We also consider card counters like the people who go into movie theaters with camcorders to copy new films, etc.,
It is this way because historically, Blackjack was once considered to be an uncountable game long by everyone before Edward Thorpe found a way to do it, and then publicly publish the method. Casinos kept blackjack as a popular game for the 90% of players who don't try to count, but instead use basic startegy and just play straight up. The job of the casinos is to pluck off the counters from "the innocents" at the tables, with the view that card-counting is a unacceptable bad faith gesture at the Blackjack table.

3. The Casino House set the rules of fair play, and it doesn't matter how unfair and horrible 'some' gamblers feel about it, be they members at this board or Anthony Curtis' LVA or where ever: 95% of players are fine with casinos and have a great time, and are happy with casinos being present as an entertainment outlet, and we are happy with them; 5% are not and feel casinos are supposed to be a "free bank" and HATE it because we are not, and do cause problems. We do 90% of our game protection work to handle the 5% of cheats, card muckers, and sadly yes, to include card counters, even though technically legal.

4. The MIT card counting team from Boston did not make their money for charity, and yeah, they took casinos down hard at times, [I can just hear the cheering of this at the board: "You GO, guys!]. I do not feel that anyone, including Clergymen, should refuse to play by the house rules, but for that matter, if I ran a Buffet Luncheon, I'd feel no one should be putting food into 6-gallon tubs, and if I owned a movie theater, I'd feel that no one should sneak in video cameras to copy movies, regardless of religious affiliation.

5. Even though you won't believe it, we like - no, LOVE our winners, that is our clean winners. We comp them, we even print articles in newspapers (August 6th lvrj: "Chastine M. won $172,929 playing EZ Pai Gow Progressive at the East Side Cannery 8/6/11 !!!") No one "sweats" the money, except for one fossilized old school floorman who is past his retirement. Either you trust mathematics, or you trust superstition like the old-school sweaters, who most of us casino workers cannot stand. Casinos run games, and we take the side of "casino mathematics" that we'll make our money, with GOOD feelings for those who come in to play. (I said play.) Casinos have a built-in house edge by the design of the games, and they're needed to finance our operations in order to offer a gambling outlet to you fine people in the first place. We don't need to cheat, or to hate our customers, or whatever: we just need to trust and enforce "the math," that's it. Mike publishes the house edges of virtually all games at his companion site at WOO.

6. It is NOT a lion's den!! It's Milquetoast if you behave yourself and just come for a good time. Play some cards, roll some dice, play some video poker, but treat it as an entertainment outlet without trying to turn it into a personal free bank.

So if you sit down at a new 6d bj game and 24 consecutive aces come out. What do you do? You're lying if you say you don't notice it and don't leave the game to find a better one. But if you do leave the game you consider that to be against the "house rules" because you happened to notice how the past cards affect your odds and act accordingly.

Dan, I do understand where you're coming from considering the fact that if most people in these forums had their way then there would be no house edge and money would rain down from the casino ceiling. So therefore, as someone in the gaming industry, you try to present more of a perspective from the other side as a counterbalance. We appreciate that perspective. But the analogies you provide like bootlegging are absurd. A better analogy is to say card-counting is like remembering a movie after its over instead of having to pay to see the same movie over and over. The movie theatre industry would love the latter but ban the former because the former would remind their bad memory friends about the plot and save them from constantly buying tickets to the same movie. This would cause the theatre to lose money and therefore people with a memory would be banned. Having a memory and acting based on that memory is against the "house rules". So if you believe Jesus wouldn't count cards then I guess he would have to turn a bunch of water into wine and then guzzle that wine so that his memory wouldn't be an issue ;)

IKJL -
I will give you that.
If I dealt 24 consecutive aces to a player from a fresh six-deck shoe, I will take it as an absolute sign from the God of Abraham that counting is kosher, I honestly will.
I will recount every "casino cop" position I every held in my life, and turn myself around to the dark side (or the light side, as it is viewed in this board). I will become an advantage player, will let players cap and pinch bets without reporting it to floor supervision, I will personally become what I had previously considered evil.
This is a promise to you and to God.
I once was playing at the Strat with my brother on a full table with a 6-deck shoe. The very first deal: 14 cards came out - all 6's and less, I swear. I REALLY debated to myself "should I bet the max?" I went up from green to a black as did everyone else (and I never FELT SO DIRTY!) and we ALL got 19s and 20s!!
AND THE DEALER FLIP OVER A BJ! AAUUUGG!!! Primal scream - f-me!! I actually felt relieved, as I though that little show was the price. I KNOW it was a random shuffle, but it was a freak hand. It happens.
The dealer smiled after that (a shit-eating grin) and quietly said, joking around, "ahh...you little fuckers thought you were slick! Na-HA!!
I busted out with a smiling laugh on the order of a Buddha baby.
I continued to play out the shoe and won $500 of off it, contrary to Even Bob's belief that that cannot ever happen. My brother and I went to a show with the cash.
But I took that freak hand to mean that larger forces are at play.
Not the Angels and deamons, but the forces of variance.

Edit:
As for the analogy of remembering a movie, no it isn't. I don't repeat movie views until a period of time has past, and the movie is great.
To become proficient in the "dark arts" of Advantage Play requires conscious effort and work, - with nefarious intent and purpose - to gain an edge in violating a know good faith house rule, plain and simple.
When I'm in the casino pit, it's my job - my calling - to make sure both sides play by the rules, no shenanigans, don't care who wins and loses, feel the same about players as I do my own management. And my official line is that I love them both!
I LOVE a clean winner - as my own game design - EZ Pai Gow - had lost $172,000 to a player I know from Fiesta Henderson, who is also a dealer. A seven-card straight flush with a dime ($10) on the bonus AND a progressive bet, on Agust 6th. (Hear that, Bob and you other people!! She paid off her house without card counting. THE LORD WORKS IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS, and he is even present in a casino. Especially in a casino!)
Orders for my game came flying in, much in the same way that junkies buy the dope that others had OD'ed on, as the cops say. There were more "Asses in seats" than a Brazillian porno movie....

Well well well the truth comes out lol You shouldn't feel dirty because you used your brain. WWJD :)

No, I feel dirty when I use my brain without conscience. That's different.
:)
I am STILL trying to reconcile with myself about my Gaming Industry career choice. To be a saint and a cop in a den of thieves.

Quote: matilda

If Paigowdan believes that the forgoing is in anyway justified, I suggest that he has swallowed the corporate pill and his brain is addled.

That's a little harsh.

I counter-suggesto Dan is a successful game developer with a number of installs, which hopefully will keep growing, and thus he has an interest in the house edge remaining an edge.

Quote: Nareed

That's a little harsh.

I counter-suggesto Dan is a successful game developer with a number of installs, which hopefully will keep growing, and thus he has an interest in the house edge remaining an edge.

Only a little harsh. I agree with your discription of Dan but maintain he has a huge blind spot on this subject. I do not appreciate being compared to card markers and buffet stealers because I have the ability to think. I do not work in a team and gang up on the casino. If a casino wants to be assured an edge on every game, then why offer one that they can lose at? Is it my fault that management has made a mistake by offering the game? They can remove it at any time. Have no games of skill at all. I actually think part of the current economic problem in Vegas is due to the reputation casinos have developed by heavy handed security. Many people are intimidated and simply do not go there.

>80% of gamblers sessions have points in which they are ahead, comfortably ahead - could be more aptly put as, "they WERE ahead"
You never count your money when your sitting at the table.

>The stats on Table Hold the amount of money a casino table game actually keeps averages 25%, not anywhere near the 95% range
Table Hold would be relevant here if all players colored up when leaving that table and no one arrived there with chips. I think Casino Win Rate is what you really want.

WWJD = "What Would Jesus DO"
Hold on a second here. Too many people are using God or Allah or the Lord to justify nefarious human things: Muslims killing Christians and burning chruches in the Middle east (Egypt, Syrian, Iraq, Pakistan, etc.) Muslims killing Hindus and burning temples and Hindu businesses (India and Pakistan); Muslims killing Catholics and burning churches in Minanao Phillipines, and Muslims killing Buddhist citizens in Southern Thailand (mainly the Songklha and Pattani areas); and plus we have the Mormons refusing to drink coffee "because Jesus wouldn't go to Starbucks!" Apparently we also have a large part of the world saying "What would Mohammed or Smith do!" Apparently, the Mormon Smith didn't like coffee, and Mohammed didn't like anyone who didn't submit to his ideology.

Now we hear that Jesus would indeed count cards, heard here on a gamblers' forum.
This is like telling us that Jesus would indeed drink a "Virgin Mary" simply because it contains no Vodka. I would think He'd just order a Mr. & Mrs. T's spicy tomato juice with no Vodka.

Too many people in the world are speaking on behalf of God and the saints to justify their actions.

It should stay out of gambling - and a lot of other things.

1. We do not know what Jesus would do, except in ourselves after a good Mass, and in rare moments of ethical inspiration.

2. We DO know what the Buddha would do - mind your own business and to disattach from others' nefarious activities, to save your own souls while always being kind and productive. Just don't judge. Buddhist education

3. We know what Mormon Smith should do: "All Gambling and intoxicants are out, including stimulants: Alcohol, Cocaine, Meth, - and Coffee." But you can work in the Gaming pit or at a Starbucks. Just don't judge anyone. Mormon education - and Harry Reid Senator of Nevada is their lead news article Interesting...

4. We know what Mohammed would do: Infidels submit to Sharia, or we kill them Info on Islam/Koran and ' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks] Wiki: World Trade Center attack Do indeed judge them all and kill them all if they don't submit, - and then we will have paradise.

5. We know what L. Ron Hubbard (Scientology) will do - Science Fiction as a money-making religion

6. We know what the Jews/King Solomon would do: Link to Yale Law School. Judge - but have a LAW DEGREE.

7. What would card counters do? Now here's the problem. We know what they would do, - and we take varying sides.

But let's leave religion out of the casino pit.
FrGamble - welcome.

Pretty sure this entire thread is about religion and gambling.

Quote: matilda

Only a little harsh. I agree with your discription of Dan but maintain he has a huge blind spot on this subject.

I'd call it a differenc eof opinion. He expresses it forcefully and with certainty, and that rubs some people the worng way. Why, sometimes you'd think he was deriding religion or soccer (if there is a difference bwteen the two).

Quote:

I do not appreciate being compared to card markers and buffet stealers because I have the ability to think.

He does ahve trouble finding a good analogy. Let's see, card marking is cheating. Going to the buffet with containers to take food home vioaltes the understanding that you'll eat from the buffet at the dining room. And both are far removed from taking any advantage you can from the casino in the games they offer.

Counting cards is a skill. Spotting hole cards isn't, but it does give you an advantage. In both cases the gambler isn't doing anything unethical or immoral. Though I do respect the casino's right to bar such players from playing a given game or any games at all. it's their property and they can do as they please, within reason.

If I could develop a card counting skill and if I enjoyed BJ, I'd count cards and try for the best. if I spot a hole card and can make use of the infomration to my advantage, I will. I won't mark cards, place bets after the outcome has been resolved, steal chips from the rack, load up at the buffet, and most times if the dealer pays me a bet she shoulnd't have I may point it out (I'm not completely certain about that).

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes, you can. It's printed right on the table:
1. Dealer draws until 17, hits soft 17.
2. Insurance Pays 2:1.
3. Anything else that you feel you can do that isn't officially printed on the table (e.g., mark cards with invisible ink, use a miniature camera on the table to view hole cards, or count cards) the friendly floorman, pit boss, or security guard will advise you on.

So there isn't a full list of official house rules. It doesn't say I get two cards, face count for ten, dealer plays with one card up, etc? What if I'd like to split sevens. Not on the felt. Or tip the dealer? I actually thought you'd meant there was an official booklet you handed to awkward people like me...

Sorry, Dan, but I'm not seeing how card counting (remembering previous events) is against the official house rules, if there isn't an official house rules for the player to have a copy of. If I'm allowed to remember that black came up three times in roulette, why can't I recall the number of aces and fives in the last three hands?

Quote: Nareed

He does ahve trouble finding a good analogy. Let's see, card marking is cheating. Going to the buffet with containers to take food home vioaltes the understanding that you'll eat from the buffet at the dining room. And both are far removed from taking any advantage you can from the casino in the games they offer.

An buffet analogy may be if the casino advertises all you can eat and then refuses to serve a very large person becauses he/she will eat too much.

Quote: matilda

An buffet analogy may be if the casino advertises all you can eat and then refuses to serve a very large person becauses he/she will eat too much.

Good one.

A friend of mine once went to an all you can eat pizza place. He is rather large, too. The story is that his dining companion fell asleep out of boredom while my friend kept eating. To their credit the pizza palce said nothing, nor did they refuse to keep serving him. But next day the all you can eat promo was gone.

This always reminds me of a Simpsons ep where Homer sues the Sea Captain for refusing him service after he'd eaten too much at the buffet. Marge testifies that after Homer had eaten prodigious amounts of sea food and been booted from the restaurant, he went to another place to eat more. Then the lawyer asks "Does that describe a man who had all he could eat?" :)

I think Dan has clearly given us the Casino position on dealing with people who they can't make any money from. Any business requires profit to survive and if they did not protect their profit they would not survive.

I have owned numerous business' over the last 40 years and occassionally had to do the same. Some customers are never happy and lie, refuse to pay, return perfectly functioning items that they only wanted for one use and generally make it impossible to make a profit from them. I have told such customers that I no longer want their business (backed them off to use casino terminolgy). Many people probably think that such action is fine and they are only being 'smart shoppers'. This is fine and I don't feel what they are doing is illegal but as a business owner I have the right to refuse to subsidize their purchase of goods and services for these consumers.

Quote: matilda

Only a little harsh. I agree with your discription of Dan but maintain he has a huge blind spot on this subject. I do not appreciate being compared to card markers and buffet stealers because I have the ability to think.

Matilda - We're not talking about the ability to "think" while gambling. We're talking about the ability to "think with a conscience" or to "think with the house rules of the game offered." A lot of people think, and then find successful ways to cheat a casino - and FULLY get away with it. Even with "slightly nefarious" methods that are well-known.
A semi-friend of mine was an Atlantic City Blackjack dealer who had successfully stolen $80,000 in two years of dealing about twenty years ago, before I was in the business. He never got caught. He used the money to start up a successful Travel Services business that made him a millionaire for almost life. The business he went into was a sex tourism business to Thailand, Japan, Bali, Costa Rica, the Domincan Republic, etc. (All adult, no child this or that, fully registered business operations). He tried to return the money - along with a confession - to the casino operator after becoming a millionaire. They refused on the basis that is was "water too far traveled under the bridge at this point, new management doesn't want to touch it, - so go away, Sir!"
As of late, his business is failing, and he is going blind in his 50's, and attributes his woes to "the law of Karma" or "devine justice" because his little very wealthy empire was "dirty money" based, or Stolen money based. He's like Lady MacBeth: "Out, damned spot!" The real story is that he did so much Coke when he had cash that it affected his business and damaged his eyes/occular tissues, and he's paying the price for that later sin. But stolen money can poisons things for many generations of spending or laundering, and there is a spiritual belief on durty money.
I might ask him to come forward his his story, it's essentially public domain after he had presented himself in Atlantic City. Mike - would this be a gambling story?

Quote: Matilda

I do not work in a team and gang up on the casino.

It doesn't matter if you steal alone or in a group. It matters if you steal at all. And while card counting is not stealing, in fact it is a very minor and ineffective trangresion even in my book, - trivial if you will - it does cross the line a breaking the house rules on a publicly offered game.

Quote: Matilda

If a casino wants to be assured an edge on every game, then why offer one that they can lose at?

Because 100% of the players would be at that ATM machine-game, none on the other games, and casino and gambling would cease to exist for YOU gamblers.
That Is Why. Matilda - What can you deduce as to what will happen??!!

Quote: Matilda

Is it my fault that management has made a mistake by offering the game?

No, it is not - and no one in gaming said it was your fault.
We said that the game of Blackjack continues on because MOST players play it in good faith, and MANY counters are so grossly incompetent that they give their money to ther casinos when trying to break the rules anyway, and with both the players and the house making their money at various times when played by the rules, or even not by the rules. Let me be CLEAR - Blackjack is not going away. We just deal with counters the way we deal with card counting, and I have been VERY clear on how casinos do this.

Quote: Matilda

They can remove it at any time. Have no games of skill at all. I actually think part of the current economic problem in Vegas is due to the reputation casinos have developed by heavy handed security. Many people are intimidated and simply do not go there.

No, the latest financial reports show that Vegas had bounced back to it's level of "pre-recession" performance, and in spite of even more out-of-state casinos coming online.
We'll always have games of skill: Poker, Pai Gow, and yes, even Blackjack. It's not going anywhere. And neither are you - as our customers. People who bitch most about the evil casinos ARE our biggest customers.

Steppenwolf: God Damn the Pusher man.
If we insist at looking at it all this way...