AlanMendelson
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August 7th, 2021 at 10:02:43 AM permalink
What's the best SLOT game for converting free play to cash? I'm including video poker as a slot game.

I would say it's 9/6 Jacks but because I've hit AAAA too many times on Jacks my game of choice is 8/5 Bonus.

Would you rank 9/6 Jacks first and 8/5 Bonus second?
sabre
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August 7th, 2021 at 10:12:55 AM permalink
101.6% LDW.

10k must hit at 9999

100.17% 10/7 DB

I'd rank any of these above 9/6 jacks.
Mission146
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August 7th, 2021 at 10:58:57 AM permalink
It depends on what your goals are.

You'd have to specify what your goals are before I offer something that is a matter of opinion. I'll probably get skewered for offering something that is a mere opinion anyway.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
AlanMendelson
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August 7th, 2021 at 11:25:21 AM permalink
I want to run my freeplay through once and cash out. In double bonus two pair is even money.
Dieter
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August 7th, 2021 at 11:29:59 AM permalink
How much do you like variance?
May the cards fall in your favor.
billryan
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August 7th, 2021 at 11:40:24 AM permalink
If the idea is to run it thru once and cash out as much as possible, I'd look into video blackjack. Video poker has a better payback overall but that includes the very rare straight flush and the even rarer Royal.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
AlanMendelson
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August 7th, 2021 at 11:43:00 AM permalink
I dont have that much free play to tolerate variance. Let's say its $45.

Lately I've been playing it thru on single line 25-cent 8/5 bonus.
AlanMendelson
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August 7th, 2021 at 11:44:54 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

If the idea is to run it thru once and cash out as much as possible, I'd look into video blackjack. Video poker has a better payback overall but that includes the very rare straight flush and the even rarer Royal.



Not a bad idea. Thanks.
joedol
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August 7th, 2021 at 11:53:43 AM permalink
I use 100 play VP. It works best for me.
Dieter
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August 7th, 2021 at 11:59:59 AM permalink
Video blackjack is likely available in a useful denomination.
9/6 Jacks or 8/5 BP may not be.

Any of the higher variance options are great if you think you'll hit a 4 of a kind or a jackpot; less if you miss.
May the cards fall in your favor.
AlanMendelson
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August 7th, 2021 at 12:00:45 PM permalink
Quote: joedol

I use 100 play VP. It works best for me.



This is what I used to do. One cent per line, 100 play, $1 per bet.

But the pay tables are reduced even with 5 coins and higher denominations. Bonus was at 6/5. TDB was at 8/5. Jacks wasn't even offered.
billryan
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August 7th, 2021 at 12:04:24 PM permalink
100 play VP is good if the pay tables are decent, but I rarely see any machine worth playing.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
Mission146
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August 7th, 2021 at 12:08:32 PM permalink
I don’t know if any of those goofy little stand up Roulette machines are there, or will even take FP if they are, but you can basically fix your actual return within about a dollar range.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
joedol
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August 7th, 2021 at 12:23:17 PM permalink
The lower limit BJ machines I've been seeing lately are all 6/5 with limited options like double down.
100 play VP is the best I've found lately to cut down on the variance and get the most back.
darkoz
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August 7th, 2021 at 12:30:11 PM permalink
The value of using video blackjack is the wager is returned to you.

So wager $5 and push, you just turned $5 fp into cash
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
joedol
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August 7th, 2021 at 12:46:16 PM permalink
I never thought of it that way. Is that enough of an advantage to make it preferable over 100 play.
I'm not a math wiz.
darkoz
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August 7th, 2021 at 2:08:27 PM permalink
Quote: joedol

I never thought of it that way. Is that enough of an advantage to make it preferable over 100 play.
I'm not a math wiz.



I'm not a math wiz either but let's examine when you win.

Jack or better:. Wager $5, get pair of Jack's, win $5 and handed back $5.

VBJ: wager $5 and beat dealer, win $5 and get handed back $10($5 win plus $5 original wager)

Personally I prefer the VBJ
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AxelWolf
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August 7th, 2021 at 2:19:14 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

.

I would say it's 9/6 Jacks but because I've hit AAAA too many times on Jacks my game of choice is 8/5 Bonus.

And yet you probably didn't notice all the flushes and full houses you got along the way.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Mission146
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August 7th, 2021 at 2:23:48 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

The value of using video blackjack is the wager is returned to you.

So wager $5 and push, you just turned $5 fp into cash



What's the difference between that and getting something like a pair of Jacks on JoB?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
darkoz
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August 7th, 2021 at 2:27:07 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

What's the difference between that and getting something like a pair of Jacks on JoB?



I will go with $45 Freeplay since Alan says that's what he has and let's assume one hand even though he probably intends to stretch it out.

Jacks or better
$45 freeplay, get pair of jacks, have $45 to cash out.

VBJ
$45 Freeplay, beat dealer, have $90 to cash out.

Which would you prefer?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Mission146
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August 7th, 2021 at 2:32:37 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I will go with $45 Freeplay since Alan says that's what he has and let's assume one hand even though he probably intends to stretch it out.

Jacks or better
$45 freeplay, get pair of jacks, have $45 to cash out.

VBJ
$45 Freeplay, beat dealer, have $90 to cash out.

Which would you prefer?



A Royal Flush.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
AxelWolf
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August 7th, 2021 at 2:33:57 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Video blackjack is likely available in a useful denomination.

This may be a good option. If you play lower limit VP or whatever, you are likely to have some paybacks, so now you have to take the time to cash out and redeem your ticket. If he were to bet the entire amount on one hand of blackjack he wouldn't have to cash out and redeem his ticket about 54% of the time, therefore, giving him the opportunity to clutch those sweet little blue dice faster.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
joedol
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August 7th, 2021 at 2:37:08 PM permalink
I just posed the question in a separate thread.
We'll see if someone wants to figure it out.
billryan
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August 7th, 2021 at 3:30:26 PM permalink
Quote: joedol

The lower limit BJ machines I've been seeing lately are all 6/5 with limited options like double down.
100 play VP is the best I've found lately to cut down on the variance and get the most back.



Most VBJ games pay even money for a BJ but with free play you convert free play to cash for wins and for pushes.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
tyler498
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August 7th, 2021 at 7:59:08 PM permalink
I'm also quite interested in this discussion. I have recently started getting a lot more free play, and the only time I ever sit on a slot machine is to convert it. Trying to do that with VP but I don't know the strategy so it takes some effort to look it up everytime.

No virtual Blackjack where I play.

Any advice on the best type of VP to convert with minimum variance, and also, minimum contribution of taxable hits to the return?
Phrased differently, if we look at a VP paytable, and take 30% off of the taxable hits but not the rest, what would be the best return?
Dieter
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August 7th, 2021 at 8:25:59 PM permalink
Quote: tyler498


No virtual Blackjack where I play.

Any advice on the best type of VP to convert with minimum variance, and also, minimum contribution of taxable hits to the return?



Virtual blackjack is different from video blackjack.
Video blackjack looks a lot like video poker, and can sometimes be found on the game king and all star machines.
Virtual blackjack looks like an ETG variant of stadium blackjack, and it's not uncommon for places to disallow slot freeplay to be used.

Denomination will change how much of the paytable is in the taxable threshold. Single line 25c/5 coin max, nothing is. Hundred play $1, you're on a W2G for any dealt hand.

The paytable for Jacks or Better is more weighted towards the bottom. Bonus poker moves some of the RTP toward the top. Double bonus, double double bonus, triple double bonus... all move a lot of the return to the premium hands. If 2 pair pays 2 for 1, you're probably at a machine you're looking for.
May the cards fall in your favor.
tyler498
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August 7th, 2021 at 11:11:08 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Virtual blackjack is different from video blackjack.
Video blackjack looks a lot like video poker, and can sometimes be found on the game king and all star machines.
Virtual blackjack looks like an ETG variant of stadium blackjack, and it's not uncommon for places to disallow slot freeplay to be used.

Denomination will change how much of the paytable is in the taxable threshold. Single line 25c/5 coin max, nothing is. Hundred play $1, you're on a W2G for any dealt hand.

The paytable for Jacks or Better is more weighted towards the bottom. Bonus poker moves some of the RTP toward the top. Double bonus, double double bonus, triple double bonus... all move a lot of the return to the premium hands. If 2 pair pays 2 for 1, you're probably at a machine you're looking for.



Thank you sir, super helpful!
camapl
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August 8th, 2021 at 1:29:52 AM permalink
These days, I use my weekly FP for Ultimate X and other such opportunities left behind, because I’m a low-life vulture. 😄 Right now those are my normal plays, so that’s where my FP goes.

When I would play $1 Loose Deuces to cover Promotions X, Y, or Z, and in the process earn FP, win FP in a drawing, or receive FP in a mailer, guess where it went? Right back into those $1 Loose Deuces! If that’s the best play for your bankroll and time constraints when playing cash, why not use it for FP?

Why is any FP “session” any more important or crucial than a cash “session”? Why is it more important to squeeze every dollar out of FP than our cash play? I guess you could say that I buy into the “lifetime session” idea, which includes all bets on all games, free or paid.

How about you?
Expectation is the root of all heartache.
tyler498
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August 8th, 2021 at 2:55:01 AM permalink
Quote: camapl

These days, I use my weekly FP for Ultimate X and other such opportunities left behind, because I’m a low-life vulture. 😄 Right now those are my normal plays, so that’s where my FP goes.

When I would play $1 Loose Deuces to cover Promotions X, Y, or Z, and in the process earn FP, win FP in a drawing, or receive FP in a mailer, guess where it went? Right back into those $1 Loose Deuces! If that’s the best play for your bankroll and time constraints when playing cash, why not use it for FP?

Why is any FP “session” any more important or crucial than a cash “session”? Why is it more important to squeeze every dollar out of FP than our cash play? I guess you could say that I buy into the “lifetime session” idea, which includes all bets on all games, free or paid.

How about you?



Everything you mentioned is correct. It's just that as I said the only times I sit on a machine is to use FP. So you can guess I only play table games, and indeed that's where I would use my FP if I could.
Mission146
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August 8th, 2021 at 5:59:13 AM permalink
Quote: camapl

These days, I use my weekly FP for Ultimate X and other such opportunities left behind, because I’m a low-life vulture. 😄 Right now those are my normal plays, so that’s where my FP goes.

When I would play $1 Loose Deuces to cover Promotions X, Y, or Z, and in the process earn FP, win FP in a drawing, or receive FP in a mailer, guess where it went? Right back into those $1 Loose Deuces! If that’s the best play for your bankroll and time constraints when playing cash, why not use it for FP?

Why is any FP “session” any more important or crucial than a cash “session”? Why is it more important to squeeze every dollar out of FP than our cash play? I guess you could say that I buy into the “lifetime session” idea, which includes all bets on all games, free or paid.

How about you?



I don't like to do short turnaround vulture plays with a card in, (hence no free play) myself. I would maybe do it on free play if I knew that the setups on a single machine would likely be sufficient to run all of the FP through on one machine.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Dieter
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August 8th, 2021 at 6:27:08 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I don't like to do short turnaround vulture plays with a card in, (hence no free play) myself. I would maybe do it on free play if I knew that the setups on a single machine would likely be sufficient to run all of the FP through on one machine.



I would generally agree.
Still, if Ultimate X is an acceptable way to run it off, picking a machine with a game you might like that happens to be more interesting than the others for the first hand, playing it at 10 coins until the freeplay is gone... should be fine.

Ultimate X is likely higher variance than is sought.
May the cards fall in your favor.
darkoz
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August 8th, 2021 at 8:46:37 AM permalink
If you are multi-carding freeplay, video Blackjack is the way to go.

99% return.

$50 max bet (usually ten units at $5 denom is available).

No possibility to win Jackpots on someone else card.

$500 freeplay on one person's card takes me ten hands. It takes me longer to switch seats and put my pin info and download the freeplay than to actually play it off.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AlanMendelson
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August 8th, 2021 at 9:18:49 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

No possibility to win Jackpots on someone else card.



I wonder about this.

I don't think a casino checks if a jackpot was won on freeplay.

If you hit a jackpot and your card is not in the machine but someone else's card is, you just withdraw your card before an attendant shows up.

Some personal experiences:

1. I hit a $2000 hand pay with my son's card in the machine. When the attendant noticed the name and addressed me by my son's name I said "oops, wrong card" and that was the end of it. I was paid and there was no further duscussion.

2. About three years ago I hit a $4000 royal using free play. There was no mention about free play. This was at Red Rock.

3. One of my $100k royals at Caesars was hit using free play. No mention of free play though techs were called to check the machine for irregularities. That is a normal procedure. I've hit three such royals.
Dieter
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August 8th, 2021 at 9:33:52 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson


If you hit a jackpot and your card is not in the machine but someone else's card is, you just withdraw your card before an attendant shows up.



Some casinos take notice of this, some may not.
Some of the casinos that take note may be more particular than others about the practice.
It is certainly possible that the handpay verification screen the attendant reads may show which card was in before the pull.
May the cards fall in your favor.
AlanMendelson
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August 8th, 2021 at 10:12:23 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Some casinos take notice of this, some may not.
Some of the casinos that take note may be more particular than others about the practice.
It is certainly possible that the handpay verification screen the attendant reads may show which card was in before the pull.



I'd like to know if anyone has been denied a handpay?

In Vegas the card inserted in the machine has no bearing. That's the law.

The card could have been there before you sat down at the machine.

If you've been denied a hand pay provide details.
Dieter
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August 8th, 2021 at 10:42:22 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

I'd like to know if anyone has been denied a handpay?

In Vegas the card inserted in the machine has no bearing. That's the law.



I am speaking of elsewhere. Most casinos are not in Nevada.

Even in Nevada, they may pay your current wager, and discontinue any future freeplay offers if they get persnickety. Nothing firsthand, but the grapevine says that casinos have been increasingly hostile to shared player cards over the last few years.
May the cards fall in your favor.
darkoz
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August 8th, 2021 at 11:08:34 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

I'd like to know if anyone has been denied a handpay?

In Vegas the card inserted in the machine has no bearing. That's the law.

The card could have been there before you sat down at the machine.

If you've been denied a hand pay provide details.



Yes, I have. Golden Nugget AC.

I had to call in the DGE which ruled in my favor and forced golden Nugget to pay.

All Freeplay offers on that card were killed. In addition the owner of the card was banned for life from all Golden Nugget casinos which he discovered when he went to get a card on vacation in Biloxi. Security surrounded him, said there was some unknown to them incident in Atlantic City and he was not allowed on golden Nugget property anywhere (he reported they were quite cordial about it and practically apologized but he had to leave)

When you are running an operation like mine, casinos don't play games.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AlanMendelson
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August 8th, 2021 at 11:20:47 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Yes, I have. Golden Nugget AC.

I had to call in the DGE which ruled in my favor and forced golden Nugget to pay.

All Freeplay offers on that card were killed. In addition the owner of the card was banned for life from all Golden Nugget casinos which he discovered when he went to get a card on vacation in Biloxi. Security surrounded him, said there was some unknown to them incident in Atlantic City and he was not allowed on golden Nugget property anywhere (he reported they were quite cordial about it and practically apologized but he had to leave)

When you are running an operation like mine, casinos don't play games.



Casinos can ban you. But the money was paid.
coachbelly
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August 8th, 2021 at 11:42:11 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I'm not a math wiz either but let's examine when you win.

Jack or better:. Wager $5, get pair of Jack's, win $5 and handed back $5.

VBJ: wager $5 and beat dealer, win $5 and get handed back $10($5 win plus $5 original wager)



Quote: darkoz

Jacks or better
$45 freeplay, get pair of jacks, have $45 to cash out.

VBJ
$45 Freeplay, beat dealer, have $90 to cash out.



A pair of jacks in JOB VP returns 1 for 1...it's a push.

It's not a win because the player hasn't won anything, he's only had his original wager returned.

But you are comparing that to a win in VBJ, when you should be comparing it to a push.
AlanMendelson
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August 8th, 2021 at 11:48:22 AM permalink
Quote: coachbelly

Quote: darkoz

I'm not a math wiz either but let's examine when you win.

Jack or better:. Wager $5, get pair of Jack's, win $5 and handed back $5.

VBJ: wager $5 and beat dealer, win $5 and get handed back $10($5 win plus $5 original wager)





A pair of jacks in JOB VP returns 1 for 1...it's a push.

It's not a win because the player hasn't won anything, he's only had his original wager returned.

But you are comparing that to a win in VBJ, when you should be comparing it to a push.



I think we all understand that what is considered to be a win in video poker is nothing more than a push.

Darkoz was correct in his post.
darkoz
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August 8th, 2021 at 11:56:26 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Casinos can ban you. But the money was paid.



Well, you asked if anyone was ever denied a handpay.

I consider having to call in DGE which forced GN to pay me being an example of having been denied a handpay.

If you are asking can they legally deny a handpay the answer is no hence my victory when calling in DGE
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coachbelly
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August 8th, 2021 at 11:56:53 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

I think we all understand that what is considered to be a win in video poker is nothing more than a push.

Darkoz was correct in his post.



Obviously not, because DO compared a win in VBJ to a push in VP, as his basis for preferring VBJ over VP.

He asserted that a pair of Jacks is a win...but it's not, it's a push.

Pushes pay the same for both games, so how can that be a basis for preferring one over the other?
darkoz
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August 8th, 2021 at 12:06:22 PM permalink
Quote: coachbelly

He compared a win in VBJ to a push in VP, as his basis for preferring VBJ over VP.

Pushes pay the same for both games, how can that be a basis for preferring one over the other?



No, you simply are wrong but if you wish to examine a win against a win because you don't think getting a pair of Jack's is considered a win then here goes.

VP:

Download $10 freeplay into machine.

Wager $10 freeplay on VP hand, winning combination is 2 pair. THAT PAYS 2:1 You are paid $20 and now have $20 in your VP machine. You did not get the initial $10 wager returned.

Video Blackjack

Download $10 Freeplay into machine.

Wager $10 Freeplay on a hand. Beat the dealer. GET PAID 1:1 INSTEAD OF 2:1 LIKE THE ABOVE VIDEO POKER EXAMPLE.

You now have $20 in cash. $10 from your win plus $10 from your initial wager.

EDIT: Most VBJ doesn't give 3:2 but if that was the case you would have $25 in cash returned. The $15 win from the winning blackjack plus the original Freeplay wager now returned as cash
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coachbelly
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August 8th, 2021 at 12:10:30 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

VP:

Download $10 freeplay into machine.

Wager $10 freeplay on VP hand, winning combination is 2 pair. THAT PAYS 2:1 You are paid $20 and now have $20 in your VP machine. You did not get the initial $10 wager returned.

Video Blackjack

Download $10 Freeplay into machine.

Wager $10 Freeplay on a hand. Beat the dealer. GET PAID 1:1 INSTEAD OF 2:1 LIKE THE ABOVE VIDEO POKER EXAMPLE.

You now have $20 in cash. $10 from your win plus $10 from your initial wager.



Are you asserting that after your FP redeeming exercise explained above, the $20 in a VP machine is not equal to the $20 in a VBJ machine?
darkoz
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August 8th, 2021 at 12:12:05 PM permalink
Quote: coachbelly

Quote: darkoz

VP:

Download $10 freeplay into machine.

Wager $10 freeplay on VP hand, winning combination is 2 pair. THAT PAYS 2:1 You are paid $20 and now have [b}$20 in your VP machine. You did not get the initial $10 wager returned.

Video Blackjack

Download $10 Freeplay into machine.

Wager $10 Freeplay on a hand. Beat the dealer. GET PAID 1:1 INSTEAD OF 2:1 LIKE THE ABOVE VIDEO POKER EXAMPLE.

You now have $20 in cash. $10 from your win plus $10 from your initial wager.



Are you trying to make the point that $20 in a VP machine is not equal to $20 in a VBJ machine?



I'm making the point that having to achieve 2:1 odds isn't the same as having to only achieve 1:1 odds for the same payout.
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coachbelly
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August 8th, 2021 at 12:22:17 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I'm making the point that having to achieve 2:1 odds isn't the same as having to only achieve 1:1 odds for the same payout.



A $10 wager on JOB returns $20 for 2 pair...that amounts to your initial wager of $10, plus $10 won for the hand.

A $10 wager on a winning hand of VBJ returns your initial wager of $10, plus $10 won for the hand.

The results are the same.

The payouts may be labeled differently on the game, but you haven't achieved different odds, you haven't achieved anything different.
darkoz
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August 8th, 2021 at 12:40:25 PM permalink
Quote: coachbelly

A $10 wager on JOB returns $20 for 2 pair...that amounts to your initial wager of $10, plus $10 won for the hand.

A $10 wager on a winning hand of VBJ returns your initial wager of $10, plus $10 won for the hand.

The results are the same.

The payouts may be labeled differently on the game, but you haven't achieved different odds, you haven't achieved anything different.



Whether you like it or not, VP takes your initial wager and does not return it to you similar to a slot machine.

VBJ does return it similar to a table game.
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Dieter
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August 8th, 2021 at 12:48:40 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz


VBJ does return it similar to a table game.



VBJ takes freeplay or cash funded credits as coin in and pays cashable coinout credits.
0 for 1 for a loss.
1 for 1 for a push (tie).
2 for 1 for a win.

Various other payouts are possible in the event of splits and doubles.

I personally have never seen a VBJ machine "return" freeplay in the event of a push, but I suppose it could happen.
May the cards fall in your favor.
coachbelly
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August 8th, 2021 at 1:01:06 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Whether you like it or not, VP takes your initial wager and does not return it to you



What are you talking about?

If you wager 5 credits on JOB, your initial wager is returned to you for a pair of jacks.

What else do you think is happening?

VP returns your initial wager to you as part of the payout for any paying hand.
billryan
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August 8th, 2021 at 1:08:47 PM permalink
Quote: coachbelly

What are you talking about?

If you wager 5 credits on JOB, your initial wager is returned to you for a pair of jacks.

What else do you think is happening?

VP returns your initial wager to you as part of the payout for any paying hand.



The Blackjack game is only a better bet when trying to convert free play into credits you can cash out. If you play a hundred hands at $1 each you will turn $1 in FP into $2 cash when you win, and $1 for ties. When using your own money, a push doesn't pay, but using FP ,it does
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