Prophecy of Paul VI in Humanae Vitae

Quote: FrGamble

I imagine the pressure to use these artificial means of birth control on the part of society and the men they know and love is fairly strong.

"Imagine" is the right word in our case. I never said a word about it. It was her idea to try the pill, and her decision to follow through and take it. I found out when she indicated I didn't need a condom. She hates condoms. When parts start rubbing, they'd better keep rubbing, without interruption. Her need, I just went along (seeing as how I agree).


You know nothing firsthand about real sex with other people. That's not vitriol, and it's not condescension. It is fact. You know what you've been told, and you repeat it as if it were fact, not understanding that words that have been passed from virgin men to virgin men for hundreds of years might not have any meaning to those of us out here in the real world, no meaning beyond their own lilt. They sound pretty, but do not withstand scrutiny.

Yes, we "need to change our minds and hearts about our sexual morality"; we need to accept that contraception has helped remove the need to prevent pregnancy through the social pressure known as "slut shaming".

"No one is immune to the problems caused when we allow our sexual desires to control us rather than us controlling them"; right. Let's allow women to take control of their sexuality, without fear.

+1 Mosca

While I appreciate the timing of your post, FrGamble, in that contraception is in the news these days, really, it is a non-issue today. I guess I am offended that a catholic priest, whose church is *still* very much under fire for its abuse allegations, speaks out so vehemently against contraception.

Its own membership does not practice what it preaches. Catholic women and men ignore the church and practices contraception, widely.

Watching Jon Stewart now:

Quote: Jon Stewart

...Two things. One, this isn't about paying for women to have or not have sex. It's about an insurance mandate from the government covering contraceptive medication as part of women's overall health care, and two - it's not your tax money that pays for it! I'm not going to get into your roundabout argument about how somehow money is taken out of your pocket to pay for Georgetown's private insurance plan whose contraception coverage would ultimately bring insurance rates down. I'm not even going to get into that. And I'm not going to get into the catholic church because you don't even pay taxes at all, so <motions to shut your mouth>.

I'm just saying to the people who are upset about their hard earned tax money going to things they don't like. Welcome to the fucking club. Everyone pays for shit they don't want to all the time. You know what, reimburse me for the Iraq war and oil subsidies and guess what, diaphragms are on me.

Quote: FrGamble

I admit it seems everyone is using contraception and I am a little taken a back at the vitriol and condescending tone

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Look, I think my position on sex isn't far from yours, albeit for different reasons. I find promiscuity highly objectionable, because I regard sex as a good thing. In any case, people will act the way they chose. If so, best they don't get pregnant or sick in addition to being depraved. And in the context of marriage, contraception permits sex at more times. What's wrong with that?

Talking about sex with a priest...
Like trying to describe color to a blind man.

Quote: WongBo

Talking about sex with a priest...
Like trying to describe color to a blind man.

More like trying to describe color to a person who intentionally wears blinders.

Quote: FrGamble

I also think it's crazy to say that because one does not have sex they can't speak about the topic. Can there be a male gynecologist?

Excellent analogy. Like I've always said, "Only babies should be allowed to perform surgery on babies."

Quote: reno

Excellent analogy. Like I've always said, "Only babies should be allowed to perform surgery on babies."

Because babies have a lot of experience in surgery?

You think that's an excellent analogy?
I don't.
A gynecologist is a physician specializing in female anatomy.
It requires no sexual experience whatsoever.
In fact a virgin could just as easily perform in that profession.

Very weak argument.

Quote: reno

Excellent analogy. Like I've always said, "Only babies should be allowed to perform surgery on babies."

Quote: WongBo

You think that's an excellent analogy?
I don't.
A gynecologist is a physician specializing in female anatomy.
It requires no sexual experience whatsoever.
In fact a virgin could just as easily perform in that profession.

Very weak argument.

Thus demonstrating that outrage dulls the perception of sarcasm.

I wasn't really thinking about what you said, lol.
You are right, I'm a little bleary from the pseudo morality present in this thread.

" Something old and useless that is paraded around in order to evoke irony. "

pseudo morality seems redundant as the above definition seems to fit both terms, would it not ?

Quote: WongBo

I wasn't really thinking about what you said, lol.
You are right, I'm a little bleary from the pseudo morality present in this thread.

Understood. But presumably, you wouldn't listen to a vegetarian arguing that steak tastes bad, or that cattle ranching is a blight on society -- instead, you'd dismiss those arguments as having no weight. Why is everyone giving so much weight to equivalent arguments made by a religious official?

That's a rhetorical question because I know the answer. But it's food for thought.

I generally ignore religious people as misguided fools clinging to an outdated mythology.
So it is out of character for me to even be in this thread.
I just found it particularly disgusting to see someone equating condom usage with increase in HIV infection.

Why don't we talk about this....

The 2004 John Jay Report[14]
was based on a study of 10,667 allegations against 4,392 priests
accused of engaging in sexual abuse of a minor between 1950 and 2002.
The report stated there were approximately 10,667 reported victims (younger than 18 years)
of clergy sexual abuse during this period:
Around 81 percent of these victims were male.
22.6% were age 10 or younger,
51% were between the ages of 11 and 14,
and 27% were between the ages to 15 to 17 years.[15][16][17]
A substantial number (almost 2000) of very young children were victimized by priests during this time period.
9,281 victim surveys had information about an investigation.
In 6,696 (72%) cases, an investigation of the allegation was carried out.
Of these, 4,570 (80%) were substantiated;
1,028 (18%) were unsubstantiated;
83 (1.5%) were found to be false.
In 56 cases, priests were reported to deny the allegations.
More than 10 percent of these allegations were characterized as not substantiated.
(This does not mean that the allegation was false;
it means only that the diocese or order could not determine whether the alleged abuse actually took place.)
For approximately 20 percent of the allegations,
the priest was deceased or inactive at the time of the receipt of the allegation
and typically no investigation was conducted in these circumstances.
In 38.4% of allegations, the abuse is alleged to have occurred within a single year,
in 21.8% the alleged abuse lasted more than a year but less than 2 years,
in 28% between 2 and 4 years,
in 10.2% between 5 and 9 years and,
in under 1%, 10 or more years.
The 4,392 priests who were accused amount to approximately 4% of the 109,694 priests in active ministry during that time.
Of these 4,392, approximately:
56 percent had one reported allegation against them;
27 percent had two or three allegations against them;
nearly 14 percent had four to nine allegations against them;
3 percent (149 priests) had 10 or more allegations against them.
These 149 priests were responsible for almost 3,000 victims, or 27 percent of the allegations.[15]
The allegations were substantiated for 1,872 priests and unsubstantiated for 824 priests.
They were thought to be credible for 1,671 priests and not credible for 345 priests.
298 priests and deacons who had been completely exonerated are not included in the study.
50 percent were 35 years of age or younger at the time of the first instance of alleged abuse.[15]
Almost 70 percent were ordained before 1970.[15]
Fewer than 7 percent were reported to have themselves been victims of physical,
sexual or emotional abuse as children.
Although 19 percent had alcohol or substance abuse problems,
9 percent were reported to have been using drugs or alcohol during the instances of abuse.[15]

I promised I would be nice to FrG. I certainly appreciate his efforts to procure a Vatican license plate for me when he was just there. However, I have to add my voice to those who find his position on contraception flawed and naive.

FrG, most of us are not as strong as you to avoid sex or do so only for the purpose of procreation. Most human being were not made from your mold. People are going to do it whether contraception is available or not.

You obviously view contraception use as a sin. However, I would argue the alternative leads to unwanted pregnancies (and thus abortions), STDs, and AIDS. Which is the lesser sin? I submit for your consideration, Father, that if you want to minimize the number of abortions you would not stand in the way of the use of contraception.

I try to be nice to everyone who posts here. And I respect the good father. But if he can not stand the heat, it is time to get out of the kitchen. I suspect he hopes to enlighten us sinners, and admire his choosing not to preach to the choir. But I have to admit his statement about sex being better when practiced less times a month to be ridiculous.
I am 71, have no need of Viagra ever, and due to medical reasons , the wife and I have reduced the occasions of love making.
I did not enjoy less sex more.
I believe that anytime you laugh at something, if you examine it, you will find truth. That being said,
Even bad sex is GREAT !!

Quote: buzzpaff

I suspect he hopes to enlighten us sinners,

Its more like he gets points for holding his own with
a bunch of godless atheists. Kinda like a getting a
scout badge for going into the lions den.

A farmer has the capability to sow 100 acres but the means to tend only 25 of these acres. Caring for 100 acres will result in starvation. Is it a sin to let the other 75 acres go to weeds and care for the 25 you can manage?

yes Hire a share cropper.

I understand the concerns that I or the Pope do not have any experience with sex. Maybe you don't know that I prepare couples for about 25 or more weddings a year. A good chunk of my meetings with parishioners revolve around relationship issues, especially with married couples. I look at good and healthy families as the building blocks of not only a vibrant Church community but also the most essential aspect to the survival of society as a whole. I spend a lot more time than you do thinking, praying, and studying about marriage and family issues.

The only way any of your arguments that contraception is needed or is beneficial hold any water is if it is absolutely impossible for human beings to control their sexual desires. I do not believe that. I believe very strongly that we don't want to, hence the strange and strong insistence that contraception is so important. Contraception is not working. The fact is that since contraception has become so prevalent the incidence of STDs, divorce, and unplanned pregnancy has only increased. Talk about having blinders on, take yours off and lets find a real solution. The real solution is to not sell ourselves short. I appreciate the Wiz's compliment but believe me we are all made from the same stuff and I know we can do it. Or in this case not do it. Anyway, what I am trying to say is that I believe in humanity and I think we can come up with a better solution than taking drugs and slapping latex on our junk to solving this problem. I think if we engage our reason and our will power we would be much better off.

" it is absolutely impossible for human beings to control their sexual desires." This is true for 99% and I have doubts about the other 1%

Please provide quotations from a reputable study that links contraceptive use to increases in divorce, STD and unwanted pregnancy.
You cannot. I find your posts incredibly deceptive and dishonest. You know what you are saying is not true.
And yet you call yourself a man of the cloth.
How disappointing.

Quote: FrGamble

The only way any of your arguments that contraception is needed or is beneficial hold any water is if it is absolutely impossible for human beings to control their sexual desires. I do not believe that. I believe very strongly that we don't want to, hence the strange and strong insistence that contraception is so important.

I am assuming that your comments are covering more than American/Canadian society. The proof should always be in some kind of demonstration. It avoids rhetoric on either side.

I take it as a reasonable assumption that any stable modern human society would desire to have a total fertility rate in the 2.0 to 2.3 range. If it is much higher, than the country cannot economically adapt, and much lower and the society is diminishing. Surprisingly few countries are in that range, but many are traditionally Catholic.

Peru 2.32
Argentina 2.31
Saudi Arabia 2.31
South Africa 2.30
Mexico 2.29
Indonesia 2.25
Brazil 2.18
Colombia 2.15
Nicaragua 2.12
Paraguay 2.11
El Salvador 2.08
United States 2.06
Ireland 2.02
Korea, North 2.02
France 1.96

It may be too much to ask for, but there should be some kind of evidence that a society can maintain reasonable levels of fertility, while still following the teachings of the Catholic church with regard to both artificial contraceptives and surgeries.

I am under the impression that the huge drop in fertility in Latin America is partly because of urbanization, but primarily because of widespread rejection of the Catholic teachings regarding artificial contraception.

With the growth of the Catholic church in Africa, there is the profound question of the consequences of the huge existing fertility rate. At some point we will see deaths of famine numbering in the hundreds of millions.
Niger 7.60
Uganda 6.69
Ethiopia 6.02

<Duplicate>

The thing is that I don't feel enlightened. I can appreciate AZ's argument that contraception coverage for health care should not be covered as it just is more regulation. As for the morality of it, I can appreciate FrGamble's thoughts but in this day and age where we're at 7 billion and counting humans on this planet, where wars are constantly breaking out because of resource shortages, where the elasticity of commodities such as oil and gold are so crazily strong, that contraception is a great way to lower birth rates overall, and stop disease.

Now, FrGamble told of the parable of the man who took a bag of condoms into town and had his way with a pile of diseased women in Zimbabwe, and claims that this behaviour would not happen had he not had condoms. And I agree, that with promiscuity comes a risk of catching STDs or AIDS, (much lower than an condom), birth control or no. The Catholic church argues that the existence of contraception comes with a great increase in promiscuity, and that's a bad thing. I agree. While promiscuity is a great deal of fun, it carries risk, and it not living the life of the pious as the catholic church (and most churches, actually, dictate).

That said, I think the Catholics church's view has got to be abstinance between unmarried couples, and to simply get away from the contraception argument. I think the overpopulation of this world, and the cruelty of the AIDS virus are two excellent reasons to abandon the church's view against contraception. Even Pope Benedict advocated that males prostitutes should wear condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS... unfortunately, no movement since then.

The RC church's position is very parsimonious. I can't blame them. They say "If you believe our doctrine, unmarried sex is a sin" and "contraception is a sin".

It may not meet a human reality, but that's hardly the point. It's the doctrine and belief of the RC church. I can say they are WRONG in that belief, but there denial of handing out condoms is with their doctrine. It'd be like a staunch tea party councillor suddenly deciding that $100k spending on one TV for a single mother was acceptable.

Quote: thecesspit

The RC church's position is very parsimonious. I can't blame them. They say "If you believe our doctrine, unmarried sex is a sin" and "contraception is a sin".

It may not meet a human reality, but that's hardly the point. It's the doctrine and belief of the RC church.

So is the underlying concept of "sin". If you don't believe in Original Sin, you probably don't need salvation from it.

Quote: FrGamble

The only way any of your arguments that contraception is needed or is beneficial hold any water is if it is absolutely impossible for human beings to control their sexual desires.

Loaded argument aside, of course it's not impossible. But it also is NOT absolutely necessary. If a couple wants to engage in sex, why shouldn't they? WHy must they conform to an arbitrary standard for lack of effective contraception?

Quote: MathExtremist

So is the underlying concept of "sin". If you don't believe in Original Sin, you probably don't need salvation from it.

Good point. Original sin is just a concept, its not
a reality. There isn't a shred of evidence to support
it. You only need salvation when you buy into the
concept.

Here are a couple of videos that tallk about the overpopulation question:

7 Billion people: Everybody Relax!

Food: There's Lots Of It

Quote: WongBo

Please provide quotations from a reputable study that links contraceptive use to increases in divorce, STD and unwanted pregnancy.
You cannot. I find your posts incredibly deceptive and dishonest. You know what you are saying is not true.
And yet you call yourself a man of the cloth.
How disappointing.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Maybe we can try to figure out what is causing such increases in divorce, STDs, and unwanted pregnancy. I'm not going to say it is all because of contraception. Contraception could be a symptom of a larger problem concerning our sexual morality. While I don't doubt your honest and I don't think you mean to be deceptive I hope you can see that we have a problem in society. You are so hung up on contraception that you can't see the bigger picture.

Think of this analogy I heard recently. If your kids were doing something dangerous like playing hopscotch on the freeway would you run out there and say, "What are you kids doing? Don't you know how dangerous this is? Here put on a helmet!" or would you grab the kids and get them off the freeway? When we misuse the awesome gift of our sexuality we are doing dangerous stuff and we need to get back on the sidewalk not put on more pads.

Opps, duplicate

Padre, do you honestly believe women are going to
give up the pill and buy a thermometer and devote
a bunch of time they don't have to not having a
baby? You're living is a dream world, only 2% of
married Catholic women do it, the majority of the
rest are on the pill. This discussion is silly.

Close, Bob.

2% of Catholics use Natural Family Planning. 31% use the pill. More than that use sterilization (tubal ligation / vasectomy). Other methods are slightly less prevalent than others.

My point exactly -- this discussion is silly! The Catholic Church should be working on so many other things and causes and let the contraception thing go. I think FrGamble's Original Post was timed with the political controversy of last week. Just stay out of it. Church and state are separated and the Catholic church should be a very minor player when it comes to reproductive issues.

What could be a bigger or a more important cause for all of society then the problems stemming from sexual immorality? I recognize that people don't want to talk about it and I'm sorry to bring it up. We always want to ignore the issues we find very challenging and we are slow to acknowledge changes that need to happen, especially when it requires what amounts to another revolution in how we think about sex. This is the source of the orginial post. The Catholic Church is the lone voice crying out in the desert calling us to a change of mind and heart, but like the prophets of old they are usually ignored and often persecuted. However because of the importance of this issue we cannot be quiet and must speak out and play a major role in the discussion of reproductive issues. We did not bring up this issue but we cannot stay out of it - it is far too important.

Quote: FrGamble

What could be a bigger or a more important cause for all of society then the problems stemming from sexual immorality?

Famine, Slavery, Genocide come to mind off the top of my head.

Quote: FrGamble

What could be a bigger or a more important cause for all of society then the problems stemming from sexual immorality?

A bigger question is, why has the Church been obsessed
with sex for 1500 years? Padre, this is what happens when
you tell intelligent adults they can't have sex. They become
obsessed with it. I know you think you have good reasons
for the obsession. You don't...

Quote: FrGamble

What could be a bigger or a more important cause for all of society then the problems stemming from sexual immorality?

I have to hand it to you father. I imagine that discussing the prohibition against artificial contraception is difficult with a group of married Catholic parishioners, let alone a more general forum. Perhaps I can add some comments in support of your position.


There are now 2 billion people in the world living in countries that have fertility levels that will produce incredible aging populations, little or no families, generations of single children, and very long term the destruction of their society just as surely as overpopulation.

Many of these countries have bought some short term financial stability, that is until most of the population exceeds retirement age. As someone observed, however, single children are not naturally communists, when making his commentary on the little emperor generation.

Within my lifetime, many of these countries were almost stereotyped by their large families; countries such as Greece, Italy, Spain,Portugal, and China. Sometimes it seems as if the mostly Catholic countries adopted to birth control with a zeal that exceeded that of the mostly Protestant countries that had adopted birth control a generation before.

Disasters such as the tsunami in Japan are magnified by video of millions of elderly as the oldest population on the planet struggles with the physical demands of evacuating.

1.54 China
1.54 Guernsey
1.53 Liechtenstein
1.52 Malta
1.50 Monaco
1.50 Montenegro
1.50 Portugal
1.48 Albania
1.47 San Marino
1.47 Spain
1.46 Switzerland
1.45 Cyprus
1.45 Georgia
1.44 Cuba
1.44 Estonia
1.43 Croatia
1.42 Bulgaria
1.42 Russia
1.41 Germany
1.40 Austria
1.40 Hungary
1.40 Serbia
1.39 Italy
1.38 Greece
1.37 Armenia
1.37 Slovakia
1.35 Andorra
1.32 Latvia
1.30 Poland
1.30 Slovenia
1.29 Moldova
1.29 Romania
1.28 Ukraine
1.27 Bosnia and Herzegovina
1.26 Belarus
1.26 Czech Republic
1.26 Montserrat
1.25 Lithuania
1.23 Korea, South
1.21 Japan
1.15 Taiwan
1.11 Singapore
1.07 Hong Kong
0.92 Macau

Quote: s2dbaker

Famine, Slavery, Genocide come to mind off the top of my head.

I think even you and I could agree that those are all big problems. The uniqueness of the problem regarding sexual immorality such as contraception, casual sex, pornography, etc. is that people are still bamboozled or brainwashed into thinking these are not serious problems.

Quote: MathExtremist

Thus demonstrating that outrage dulls the perception of sarcasm.

:) Yes, my snarky comment was definitely meant as sarcasm. There's a lot of great things about Catholicism, but they simply refuse to accept the fact that God gave humans a sex drive. Contraception prevents abortions, so the Church's opposition to contraception is... uh, weird.

Quote: Humanae Vitae

Another effect that gives cause for alarm is that a man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and, disregarding her physical and emotional equilibrium, reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires, no longer considering her as his partner whom he should surround with care and affection.

Occasionally my wife initiates sex. Yes, she occasionally uses me as a mere instrument to satisfy her own desires, but I don't mind. Why must the Church criticize women for using the clitoris that God gave them?

Asking humans to use sex only for procreation is like asking humans to eat only to prevent starvation. We eat more than we need to, and we have sex more than we need to. Why must the Church criticize humans for being human? Jesus said something about not judging....

Quote: FrGamble

sexual immorality such as contraception, casual sex, pornography,.

Whats immoral about watching consenting adults having
sex. You can't get pregnant or get an STD while watching,
can you.

Quote: FrGamble

I think even you and I could agree that those are all big problems. The uniqueness of the problem regarding sexual immorality such as contraception, casual sex, pornography, etc. is that people are still bamboozled or brainwashed into thinking these are not serious problems.

Actually, it's quite the opposite. The bamboozled ones are the people who think that having sex is a serious problem.

Quote: FrGamble

What could be a bigger or a more important cause for all of society then the problems stemming from sexual immorality?

There are too many to list. The fact that you think sexual morality could possibly be the biggest problem facing society is an unfortunate testament to how far removed from reality that view is.

Currently on Earth we have tyrannical warlords oppressing their citizens; institutionalized slavery and discrimination, and the threat of nuclear war promulgated by a regime sworn to wipe another "off the map". We also have a global several year-long recession and, far worse, a coming structural change in the nature of the capitalist economic system which the world is wholly unprepared to manage.

If you ask any random sampling of Americans what the biggest problem facing the country today is, you'll hear one of two related answers: "Jobs" or "The Economy". If you ask your own parishioners the same question, you'll get the same answers. You will not hear, not from even one in one hundred, that "the biggest problem facing our society today is sexual immorality and the problems stemming from it."

I am flabbergasted that you could even possibly consider this to be the case.

Admittedly those problems are all bigger, I misspoke or misswrote. What I find very troubling about the very real problem of sexual immorality is what you give voice to, namely that no one is talking about it. We are all worried about jobs, the economy, war, tyrants, slavery, discrimination and for good reason. No one seems to recognize how sick and distorted our view of sex is and people refuse to acknowledge the negative consequences it is causing. The ordorless, undectable, slow acting poision is as deadly as the nuclear bomb. I am flabbergasted too!

Quote: FrGamble

What I find very troubling about the very real problem of sexual immorality is what you give voice to, namely that no one is talking about it.

How is birth control sexual immorality? That is to equate driving a car with vehicular homicide. Father I think you are overly confused on this topic. Can you please list scripture that explicitly talks of birth control? Yes it was common back then. Remember the Greeks said Minos used a goats bladder as a condom.

Also I notice a lack of the discussion of Birth Control in the Bible however the Church seems to talk a lot about it. Conversely in the Bible The Lord has spoken without any doubt on usury. What is the Church's stand on the worlds banking industry when it is clearly against Gods Law? I think that usury does more to enslave people than condoms. But I am interested since the whole banking industry goes against Gods law why has the Church not come out against it?

I have attached a few examples:

25 " If you lend money to any of My people who are poor among you, you shall not be like a moneylender to him; you shall not charge him interest.
26 "If you ever take your neighbor's garment as a pledge, you shall return it to him before the sun goes down.
27 "For that is his only covering, it is his garment for his skin. What will he sleep in? And it will be that when he cries to Me, I will hear, for I am gracious. (Exodus 22:25-27)
----------------

35 ' If one of your brethren becomes poor, and falls into poverty among you, then you shall help him, like a stranger or a sojourner, that he may live with you.
36 'Take no usury or interest from him; but fear your God, that your brother may live with you.
37 'You shall not lend him your money for usury, nor lend him your food at a profit. (Leviticus 25:35-37)
---------------

19 " You shall not charge interest to your brother -- interest on money or food or anything that is lent out at interest.
20 "To a foreigner you may charge interest, but to your brother you shall not charge interest, that the LORD your God may bless you in all to which you set your hand in the land which you are entering to possess. (Deuteronomy 23:19,20)
--------------

10 "I also, with my brethren and my servants, am lending them money and grain. Please, let us stop this usury!
11 "Restore now to them, even this day, their lands, their vineyards, their olive groves, and their houses, also a hundredth of the money and the grain, the new wine and the oil, that you have charged them." (Nehemiah 5:10,11)
-------------

5 He who does not put out his money at usury, Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things shall never be moved. (Psalm 15:5)
------------

8 One who increases his possessions by usury and extortion Gathers it for him who will pity the poor. (Proverbs 28:8)
-----------

24:1 Behold, the LORD makes the earth empty and makes it waste, Distorts its surface And scatters abroad its inhabitants.
2 And it shall be: As with the people, so with the priest; As with the servant, so with his master; As with the maid, so with her mistress; As with the buyer, so with the seller; As with the lender, so with the borrower; As with the creditor, so with the debtor.
3 The land shall be entirely emptied and utterly plundered, For the LORD has spoken this word. (Isaiah 24:1-3)
-----------

10 Woe is me, my mother, That you have borne me, A man of strife and a man of contention to the whole earth! I have neither lent for interest, Nor have men lent to me for interest. Every one of them curses me. (Jeremiah 15:10)
----------

7 If he has not oppressed anyone, But has restored to the debtor his pledge; Has robbed no one by violence, But has given his bread to the hungry And covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not exacted usury Nor taken any increase, But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity And executed true judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutes And kept My judgments faithfully -- He is just; He shall surely live!" Says the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 18:7-9)
---------

13 If he has exacted usury Or taken increase -- Shall he then live? He shall not live! If he has done any of these abominations, He shall surely die; His blood shall be upon him. (Ezekiel 18:13)
---------

17 Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor And not received usury or increase, But has executed My judgments And walked in My statutes -- He shall not die for the iniquity of his father; He shall surely live! (Ezekiel 18:17)
--------

12 "In you they take bribes to shed blood; you take usury and increase; you have made profit from your neighbors by extortion, and have forgotten Me," says the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 22:12)

Quote: FrGamble

Admittedly those problems are all bigger, I misspoke or misswrote. What I find very troubling about the very real problem of sexual immorality is what you give voice to, namely that no one is talking about it. We are all worried about jobs, the economy, war, tyrants, slavery, discrimination and for good reason. No one seems to recognize how sick and distorted our view of sex is and people refuse to acknowledge the negative consequences it is causing. The ordorless, undectable, slow acting poision is as deadly as the nuclear bomb. I am flabbergasted too!

So sayeth the guy who isn't having sex by his own choice. From inside your ivory tower, you can have no idea how ridiculous you look.

Maybe its the vantage point I have, but I wish you would come on up here and see how scary ridiculous you look.

FrGamble, I must admit I agree with you. Our view of sex is sick and distorted, absolutely. And the Catholic Church and other church groups should be staunch against our perceptions of sex in society. It is your belief, and to defend it is the right thing to do. I think that your clergy could get behind a prolonged campaign that supports abstinance, for example. I think it's foolish to speak out against contraception at this time -- your own congregation does not practice it and sees it as backwards thinking.

However, contraception to some, is simply a tool to er, practice our view. I realize that contraception has been on the church's radar for a long time because it's been around for a long time. But if you're going to unload on contraception, the Church should also be unloading on cable networks, television, the internet, and any other medium that spreads the bad message. The problem is that the church doesn't have any meaningful statements when it comes to the real problem, which is not contraception, but the immorality and the spread of immorality as well. I use the internet, everyday. The internet spreads a pile of porn and immorality, only a click away. Why isn't the Catholic church coming down hard on the internet, on cable networks. Catholics all over the world should be banning the internet, stop getting cable, and stop frequenting stores that help spread immorality through the world. No?

I mean, there are valuable benefits for contraception in any form outside of the realm of birth control. While condoms may be a form of contraception, others use it purely to control disease. I mean, women may be on the pill but for new partners will use a condom to prevent the spread of STDs. Folks who are on the pill may use it to control their periods and to lessen bloating and pain around these times. Those are are sterlized may do so because of uterine fibroids or other medical reasons. These are all forms of "contraception" whose prime purpose is to lessen disease and make women more comfortable, and I don't see how any biblical text can argue against that.

So, FrGamble, I would ask you to ask your superiors that question. What's the big deal about contraception, when there are so many other ways to fight sexual immorality in this world that would have much better results?

Quote: s2dbaker

Famine, Slavery, Genocide come to mind off the top of my head.

Too easy. I mean, what with no prohibitions on slavery in the Bible, the locusts unleashed on egypt, and plenty of divine acts of genocide detailed in the Bible. For some reason the term "doubleplusgood" comes to mind...

Quote: s2dbaker

Actually, it's quite the opposite. The bamboozled ones are the people who think that having sex is a serious problem.

+1. I don't understand the term "sexual immorality". It's a non-sequitur, an oxymoron. What is immoral about sex?

On the other hand, if you think that there is something immoral about sex, then it only makes sense that you'd want to REGULATE it.