There Is No God
Quote: HotBlondeI've been to a wedding and saw one on tv where dancing wasn't allowed.
Can we play "can you top this?"
I've been to two strict Jewish Orthodox weddings where the reception hall was divided by sex. Women and girls on one side, men and boys on the other, and a partition in between! Worse yet, there's loud music but no dancing. Though they did serve alcohol.
Weird!Quote: NareedCan we play "can you top this?"
I've been to two strict Jewish Orthodox weddings where the reception hall was divided by sex. Women and girls on one side, men and boys on the other, and a partition in between! Worse yet, there's loud music but no dancing. Though they did serve alcohol.
Quote: MrVGod is dread.
And He might even toke a roller
That is cool mountain stream water.
98Clubs
Quote:Is it too much to ask of an omnipotent and omniscient deity to speak plainly and say what he means to say?
That depends upon when in human history, and to whom He speaks.
Perhaps picture-words do better
98Clubs
Salvation from what exactly?Quote: rpw612Without free will there can't be salvation. Choices by man, not God cause problems. All the best.
Quote: rpw612Without free will there can't be salvation. Choices by man, not God cause problems. All the best.
Recent research shows that free will may be an illusion. (Scientific American)
Free will is an illusion, biologist says (Money quote: "In a recent study, Cashmore [professor of biology at Penn] has argued that a belief in free will is akin to religious beliefs, since neither complies with the laws of the physical world.") (PhysOrg.com)
Why You Don't Really Have Free Will (Money quote: "Our brains are simply meat computers that, like real computers, are programmed by our genes and experiences to convert an array of inputs into a predetermined output.") (USA Today)
Is Neuroscience the Death of Free Will? (New York Times) (a rebuttal)
Haven't you heard? We're all destined for eternal damnation! Let us join together and travel the world and share the Gospel of Jesus so that all may be saved before it's too late!!! We must tell EVERYONE!!!Quote: rpw612Without free will there can't be salvation. Choices by man, not God cause problems. All the best.
Quote: s2dbakerSalvation from what exactly?
P.S. The sky is falling
Quote:Recent research shows that free will may be an illusion.
Since scientists can't explain the phenomenon of Consciousness, why are they tackling Free Will?
It would have dire consequences for theology, however. And many sci-fi stories have touched upon the idea to a lesser or greater degree. Dark City, the Matrix movies, Star Wars ("These are not the droids you're looking for"), the general notions of brainwashing, hypnosis, etc.
What would you do if you learned you could be programmed like a computer? How would you know your thoughts were your own?
Quote: MoscaRecent research shows that free will may be an illusion. (Scientific American)
Next they'll be telling us that bacon doesn't
really taste good, its our brains making a
mistake. Is nothing sacred?
Don't they know people like the padre depend
on free will being real? Whats Christianity to
do if its proven free will doesn't exist? They
won't do anything, they'll just find an obscure
verse in the OT that covers it, and everything
will go on as always. The Bible can be anything
to anybody at any time..
Quote: MathExtremistThat's what scientists do. They ask questions. The free will question is quite interesting, but ultimately one that current (and near future) science will not be able to answer conclusively.
IMO it is a real world example of the incompleteness theorem.
Quote: Scientific American article
Scientists have postulated that consciousness is populations of neurons firing in certain brain areas, no more and no less. To most people, however, it seems bizarre to think that the distinctive tang of kumquats, say, is just a pattern of neural activation.
I'm not sure it's so bizarre -- it was the central premise of "The Matrix". Are we so certain that it's not possible to cut off natural stimuli and hook up our brains to a cable which provides a surrogate? How do you know you're not in The Matrix right now?
At a more basic level, centuries of research have already gone into how our senses are not infallible. I was at the San Francisco Exploratorium recently and looked at several illusions. The optical ones you're probably familiar with -- the distorted room, the fake spiral, the two lines that are the same length but don't appear to be. But there was a great physical illusion too: a foam cube about 8" per side and a metal puck about 2" diameter. The foam cube was heavier according to a balance scale, but the metal puck felt heavier in my hand. Intellectually, I knew it wasn't so, but I couldn't get my body to accept that. It doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to get from such gross illusions (gross as in large, not disgusting) to finer-grained phenomena. Scientists have been working for at least 3 decades on electrode implantation to directly stimulate parts of the brain. It's possible to directly trigger the visual cortex using electrodes and have it appear like the old green-screen dot-matrix displays -- but you'd see it overlaid on your vision or without your eyes even being open. Interestingly, US Pat. No. 8,000,000 was issued to just such a device. The specification reads "The present disclosure relates to visual prostheses configured to provide neural stimulation for the creation of artificial vision."
Isn't it just a matter of degree, rather than type, between that and "The Matrix"?
Quote: MathExtremistHow do you know you're not in The Matrix right now?
If I am, I wish they'd clean my office more often,
and empty the cat boxes.
Quote: MathExtremista foam cube about 8" per side and a metal puck about 2" diameter. The foam cube was heavier according to a balance scale, but the metal puck felt heavier in my hand. Intellectually, I knew it wasn't so, but I couldn't get my body to accept that.
You fell for it...
Yes, the cube is heavier, but the puck generates more pressure as it concentrates its weight on a smaller area. That's why it feels heavier. This is very basic highschool physics. Also the cube is easier to pick up with two hands rather than one, furthering the feeling of lightness.
I see this all the time when packing samples. A one kilo bag of dried chiles, about the size of a pillow, seems lighter than a half kilo box of rice flour, about the size of a fat paperback book. It's not an illusion per se, it's a difference in perception.
Quote:Isn't it just a matter of degree, rather than type, between that and "The Matrix"?
So it's just a little bit of engineering that stands between us and a mediocre SF action movie? ;)
Quote: rpw612So if free will is an illusion, then one is not able to make there own choices?
I think what the articles are saying is, thinking
we can act any way we want, any time we want,
is an illusion. I might think I could hit my neighbor
in the head with a hammer if I wanted to, but the
reality is, push come to shove, I probably couldn't
do it. All my experiences up to this point would
prevent me from killing a person for no reason. I
have no free will here. And if thats true for one
thing, how many others don't I have free will over.
They used to call it 'being set in your ways', 'old
habits die hard', etc. We're mostly self programmed
robots with little free will at all.
I think the fact that people believe that there is an all-loving God who gives us free will but tells us if we don't choose his way we will burn for all of eternity when we die is something way more troubling.Quote: MoscaMy take is that if you can't tell the difference then practically speaking it doesn't matter. But if you believe that a god has given you free will and then judges you on how you exercise it, then it is a big deal if it really doesn't exist.
"Free will" is but one of many twisted threads which make up this this whacked out tapestry.
Hey, good thread, btw, MrV!Quote: MrVThe entire notion that there will be a day of judgment, when we will be measured and if found wanting cast into a fiery furnace ... ah, the stuff dreams are made of.
"Free will" is but one of many twisted threads which make up this this whacked out tapestry.
Quote: MrVThe entire notion that there will be a day of judgment, when we will be measured and if found wanting cast into a fiery furnace ... ah, the stuff dreams are made of.
I'm pretty sure that judgment day is a more recent concept, relatively speaking. The Old Testament is more direct and refers to punishment in this life, not afterwards:
Quote: Deuteronomy 28, NIV
15 However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:
16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The LORD will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking me. 21 The LORD will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The LORD will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The LORD will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.
25 The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The LORD will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The LORD will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.
30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The LORD will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.
36 The LORD will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the LORD will drive you.
38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.
43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.
45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the LORD your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the LORD your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the LORD sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.
49 The LORD will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the LORD your God is giving you.
53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the LORD your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.
58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the LORD your God— 59 the LORD will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The LORD will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the LORD your God. 63 Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.
64 Then the LORD will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods—gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your ancestors have known. 65 Among those nations you will find no repose, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the LORD will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary with longing, and a despairing heart. 66 You will live in constant suspense, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life. 67 In the morning you will say, “If only it were evening!” and in the evening, “If only it were morning!”—because of the terror that will fill your hearts and the sights that your eyes will see. 68 The LORD will send you back in ships to Egypt on a journey I said you should never make again. There you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.
Quote: s2dbakerHoly Crap!!! All that will happen to me if I wear cloth made of two different threads?
Don't worry read Matthew chapter 23 or this quote from Mt. 25:31-46:
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [a]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Quote: wrragsdaleWhy take the chance that I MIGHT be right, because here's the thing.....
Even if you don't believe in Hell doesn't mean you won't go!
Remember free will.......
He loves you and so do I!
I remember John Calvin saying that God's sovereign will predestines certain depraved souls for Heaven and other noble altruists to Hell (this is how he described his Predestination, not as just God knowing ahead of time who would ultimately "accept" or "reject" Christ). And Calvin's pious disposition is well-founded: could God be truly sovereign if he allowed himself to be subject to human notions of final divine justice? And does Hell have to be such a bad place to those who are designed to go there? Is the desire to be forgiven a sign of faith in, or fear of God? Is fear a sign of faith?
SINE SINE TEKEL UPHARSIN.
Quote: wrragsdaleWhy take the chance that I MIGHT be right, because here's the thing.....
Even if you don't believe in Hell doesn't mean you won't go!
Frightening people into becoming Christians is the
oldest tactic there is. Live your whole life because
you're scared it 'might' be true, better not take the
chance. No thanks, I prefer to think for myself than
run around like Chicken Little screaming 'The sky
is falling, the sky is falling!'
Quote: NowTheSerpentIs fear a sign of faith?
Isn't fear always a sign of faith? If you don't believe the mugger will touch you, you'll just keep walking down the dark alley.
The World Harvest Television station announces:
"The Jewish Jesus... There's Hope for the Hung!"
(Yes, I actually took this picture off of my tv screen.)
I wanted to watch Hope For The Hung, of course!Quote: boymimboMy question to you is what are you doing up at 7:54 on a Sunday morning?
Quote: MrVThat didn't stop you from responding now, did it?
I started it as a "There is no God" thought piece, as it is what I believe ... or should I say, it is what I do NOT believe.
"Red herring?"
What item of significance might I be attempting to divert attention from?
No, like it or not, whether we believe in god or not IS a fundamental question: better we focus our efforts in making this world a better place, instead of blowing it off in hopes of a mulligan in "the hereafter."
How is making the world a better place related to the question of belief in God?
I do this near-daily, in different ways.
My choice.
This lets me satisfy my altruistic desires, yet leaves me sufficient time to devote to myself and my and my family's needs.
Contrast this with the time I'd waste in church, on my knees praying, mouthing platitudes, eating a wafer and all in service of ... what, exactly?
Certainly not peace of mind.
The time I used to waste in church is now spent helping people directly.
Again, my choice ... my conscious choice.
Would I have helped people the way I do now, had I not quit going to Catholic church after an epiphany as a teen?
Not likely: I'd probably have the notion that going to church was enough: it isn't.
Quote: MrVI believe that it is a better and more productive use of my time to devote a portion of my efforts to doing "good works," i.e. engaging activities which by design benefit others directly, and not myself.
I do this near-daily, in different ways.
My choice.
This lets me satisfy my altruistic desires, yet leaves me sufficient time to devote to myself and my and my family's needs.
Contrast this with the time I'd waste in church, on my knees praying, mouthing platitudes, eating a wafer and all in service of ... what, exactly?
Certainly not peace of mind.
The time I used to waste in church is now spent helping people directly.
Again, my choice ... my conscious choice.
Would I have helped people the way I do now, had I not quit going to Catholic church after an epiphany as a teen?
Not likely: I'd probably have the notion that going to church was enough: it isn't.
I'm glad you believe you should do "good works" and you should follow these mysterious altruistic desires. While Christianity has this practice written into its DNA it is good to see that you are doing good, as you repeated too many times, by your own conscious choice (I guess you are trying to say that I am not choosing to do good consciously because my faith says I should??). Anyway, I think you could do even more good if you went back to Church and joined a community dedicated to serving and caring for those in need, spiritually and materially. Your faith and worship should directly inspire you to go out and help make the world a better place. No Church worth its salt would ever say just going to Church is enough. Faith needs to be practiced and lived. You should have gone to a different Church and not given up altogether.
This is why the Catholic Mass ends with the words, "Ite, Missa est." The meaning being, "Go, you are sent on mission!" You come get refreshed, recharged, encouraged, nourished, and equipped to do good and spread faith, hope, and love to all you meet. Keep up the good work and when you need some help, inspiration, or encouragement come back to Church.
No, the focus was always on trying to control ME, to influence MY behavior, inducing me to respond in a "church-approved manner:" this was done primarily by implanting notions and feelings of GUILT.
In the end, the Catholic Church attempted to use FEAR to try to control me: fear of going to hell, fear of offending god.
I chose to pass: I opted for No Fear.
These days, I help people using the particular skill set I have, and individualize my focus.
I'm not working a soup kitchen (although I thought of doing that): rather, I help people one on one, using my particular talents to fix their lives / problems, for free.
Works for me.
Quote: NowTheSerpentHow is making the world a better place related to the question of belief in God?
History clearly shows us that belief in God makes a big difference in making the world a better place. Take a look at what has happened in this last century in regards to governments who rejected belief in God - it is not a pretty picture. This state sponsored atheism has lead to more death, torture, persecution, and destruction than in any other century.
Quote: FrGambleHistory clearly shows us that belief in God makes a big difference in making the world a better place. Take a look at what has happened in this last century in regards to governments who rejected belief in God - it is not a pretty picture. This state sponsored atheism has lead to more death, torture, persecution, and destruction than in any other century.
It wasn't atheism, it was nationalism.
Please make a note of it.
Quote: MrVIt wasn't atheism, it was nationalism.
Please make a note of it.
I think you are confusing the radical nationalism or fascism of Nazi Germany for example with the explicit state sponsored atheism of places like the Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, and North Korea. They are equally bad, almost equally anti-religious, clearly destructive and deadly, but are also different in their ideology.
Quote: FrGambleI think you are confusing the radical nationalism or fascism of Nazi Germany for example with the explicit state sponsored atheism of places like the Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, and North Korea. They are equally bad, almost equally anti-religious, clearly destructive and deadly, but are also different in their ideology.
They're "atheists" only in the sense that they deny belief in the Biblical good. They're not anti-religious, seeing as they made a religion out of Communism, complete with deities, demigods, rituals, etc. They also favored doing "good" for others.
Quote: FrGambleI think you are confusing the radical nationalism or fascism of Nazi Germany for example with the explicit state sponsored atheism of places like the Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, and North Korea. They are equally bad, almost equally anti-religious, clearly destructive and deadly, but are also different in their ideology.
The Khmer Rouge was a definitely a radical nationalist movement. Pol Pot's ideologies stemmed from a fear and loathing of the Vietnamese and their brand of Communism.
North Korea is a cult of personality.
Atheism is not the driver behind any of these nations. It's a net cause of their ideologies, not a net source.
Quote: FrGambleI think you are confusing the radical nationalism or fascism of Nazi Germany for example with the explicit state sponsored atheism of places like the Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, and North Korea. They are equally bad, almost equally anti-religious, clearly destructive and deadly, but are also different in their ideology.
The Khmer Rouge was a definitely a radical nationalist movement. Pol Pot's ideologies stemmed from a fear and loathing of the Vietnamese and their brand of Communism.
North Korea is a cult of personality.
Atheism is not the driver behind any of these nations. It's a net effect of their ideologies, not a net source.
Quote: FrGambleHistory clearly shows us that belief in God makes a big difference in making the world a better place. Take a look at what has happened in this last century in regards to governments who rejected belief in God - it is not a pretty picture. This state sponsored atheism has lead to more death, torture, persecution, and destruction than in any other century.
Oh come on. Surely you are not advocating sharia, are you? It sure reads that way. Because if you are, I think EvenBob has covered the Catholic side of that territory fairly comprehensively, when he brings up the Inquisition.
You have raised a specious argument and I'm surprised you've gotten away with it so far. But since you brought it up, let's put the misery of women across the world on the "belief in God" side of the ledger, the total subjugation of half of humanity in the Arab world. Let's put the destruction of the native American cultures on the "belief in God" side. Let's put the Inquisition on the "belief in God" side. Let's put American slavery on the "belief in God" side. Let's put the Israeli/Palestinian conflict on the "belief in God" side. Let's put the second class (or criminal, in most of the world) status of everyone who is not heterosexual on the "belief in God" side. Let's put the war against medical research on the "belief in God" side.
I could go on... should I stop here, or would you like more examples?
My cursory read of history is going to say that I don't really see anything particularly convincing here, about believing in god making the world better, seeing as how it is used to justify so much misery.
Quote: MoscaLet's put American slavery on the "belief in God" side.
Most people don't realize that slavers used the
OT as their permission and blueprint for modern
day slavery in the 16th-19th centuries. Not only
does it give god's approval, it lays out all the rules
for buying selling and owning slaves. And since
Jesus and his followers never condemned it, that
was another stamp of approval.
It would be nice to see your more unlikely comments (such as this one) backed up with at least some shred of evidence. If, as you assert, most people are unaware of this fact, you must have been privy to information not generally available to the masses. Please let us know how you know this to be true. I know you read a lot (as you've told us before) but just saying you read it somewhere doesn't really cut it.Quote: EvenBobMost people don't realize that slavers used the
OT as their permission and blueprint for modern
day slavery in the 16th-19th centuries. Not only
does it give god's approval, it lays out all the rules
for buying selling and owning slaves. And since
Jesus and his followers never condemned it, that
was another stamp of approval.
Quote: TheNightflyI know you read a lot (as you've told us before) but just saying you read it somewhere doesn't really cut it.
Both pro slavery and abolitionists fiercely used the
Bible to bolster their side of the argument, right
up to the Civil War. The Bible was more on the side
of the slavers, so it was a good debate. Ever since
the KJV became widely available, the slave owner
community has always used the OT to prove slavery
has god's blessing, its there in black and white, clear
as a bell. You do the research, I don't have time right
now.
