Celebrate Religion here
Quote: FrGamblethe Church is not scared
Not only is the Church scared, they're scared to
death. They're losing everything they hold dear
as they move into the future.
Quote: FrGambleMy argument is only that billions of people testifing to the truth of something is indeed good solid evidence that should be weighed and not dismissed out of hand.
Let's say I hand you a box and you determine it to be empty. If billions of people testified it was full, would you consider that good, solid evidence that should be weighed and not dismissed out of hand?
Quote:There is no scientific proof (nor can there be) that God exists or does not exist,
You lost me at "or." There is no "or" in this argument. You claim god exists. Fine. Prove it. Until you do, or someone else does, there is no reason to believe any kind of deity exists or, as far as we know, can exist.
Quote:therefore we have to consider the evidence.
"There you go again," attributed to Ronald Reagan.
Quote:I am suggesting that it is quite amazing the hubris in declaring worthless the fact that so many millions upon millions of people who are much smarter than you, me, and all on this forum and who have dedicated their lives to study of theology, philosophy, history, and religion believed with all their heart and mind that there is indeed a God.
1) I don't think there are millions upon millions of people smarter than the average user of this forum (especially since Logan/Singer left).
2) Studying history, philosophy, religion and science is a useful way to determine why so many people believe in deities, and why such beliefs have persisted for so long.
3) There are many other misconceptions and simply wrong assumptions people make regarding the world. Some far more consequential than religion, like for example the value of eye-witness testimony.
Quote:I think we need to take a reality check and recognize how strange it sounds to say everyone was completely wrong and I am right.
See the empty box example above. Would you consider you need a "reality check," or that everyone is completely wrong and you are right?
Quote:It is prideful, childish, foolish, not logical and it would not make the Xaverian Brother's very proud.
You go two things right. The first, for certain, and I assume the second. Also, it's interesting you can deride and uphold pride in the same paragraph.
Quote: FrGambleI'm not sure everyone is clear on a few things regarding the Galileo case.
I'm sure you're not clear on the Galileo case.
Regardless of what the actual controversy was, the Church reacted by threatening Galileo and later by keeping him under house arrest. That's what people find abhorrent and horrible, and extremely offensive. This institution that purports to represent an all-loving deity, when challenged intellectually responds, effectively, by saying "Shut up, or I'll kick the crap out of you!"
Defend that.
Quote: Nareed
Regardless of what the actual controversy was, the Church reacted by threatening Galileo and later by keeping him under house arrest. That's what people find abhorrent and horrible, and extremely offensive. This institution that purports to represent an all-loving deity, when challenged intellectually responds, effectively, by saying "Shut up, or I'll kick the crap out of you!"
Defend that.
This is why Pope John Paul II prayed for the forgiveness of the Church's sins in the year 2000. Below is an excerpt form the litany of prayers:
A representative of the Roman Curia:
Let us pray that each one of us,
looking to the Lord Jesus, meek and humble of heart,
will recognize that even men of the Church,
in the name of faith and morals,
have sometimes used methods not in keeping with the Gospel
in the solemn duty of defending the truth.
Silent prayer.
The Holy Father:
Lord, God of all men and women,
in certain periods of history
Christians have at times given in to intolerance
and have not been faithful to the great commandment of love,
sullying in this way the face of the Church, your Spouse.
Have mercy on your sinful children
and accept our resolve
to seek and promote truth in the gentleness of charity,
in the firm knowledge that truth
can prevail only in virtue of truth itself.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.
R. Amen.
R. Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie eleison.
A lamp is lit before the Crucifix.
Quote: FrGambleThis is why Pope John Paul II prayed for the forgiveness of the Church's sins in the year 2000. Below is an excerpt form the litany of prayers:
Ah, well that explains it.
You see, the prayer says nothing about forgiveness. It does recognize mistakes, barely, then has some begging and flattery of god (I must admit that, if this is typical Christian flatter, it's milder than the Jewish kind).
But that would explain why Catholics still try to justify or explain away the Church's treatment of Galileo.
Quote: FrGambleYour arrogance is unbelievable. Excuse me if I represent frankly the fact that the Church is not scared about surviving after these two thousand years because EvenBob armed with a incorrect and prejudiced view of history says we need to change to fit his vision of what is right. I think we will stick with the truths of God and we'll see you in another couple thousand years or when the Lord returns. Good grief!
That's why there's a shortage of priests, at the same time congregations and attendance are shrinking.
The church is at least concerned, if not scared. And if they are not, then they should be.
Quote: FrGambleMy argument is only that billions of people testifing to the truth of something is indeed good solid evidence that should be weighed and not dismissed out of hand.
Non-Christians outnumber Christians by a factor of 2.5 to 1. Can 5 billion people be wrong?
Quote: MathExtremistNon-Christians outnumber Christians by a factor of 2.5 to 1. Can 5 billion people be wrong?
He was waiting for that one. He's arguing for God, not the nature of that god. Once we accept God (based on the weight of numbers), then the argument turns toward which god is God.
Quote: Mosca..........then the argument turns toward which god is God.
My money is on Zeus.
Zeus made me $15 at the Gold Coast. He's got my vote!!Quote: victorimmatureMy money is on Zeus.
Quote: s2dbakerZeus made me $15 at the Gold Coast. He's got my vote!!
Or Nareed not praying for you. Another miracle! (LOL)
Quote: s2dbakerZeus made me $15 at the Gold Coast. He's got my vote!!
That settles it then, Zeus it is.
Quote: NowTheSerpentOr Nareed not praying for you. Another miracle! (LOL)
I can testify I did nothing about it.
Quote: NareedQuote: NowTheSerpentOr Nareed not praying for you. Another miracle! (LOL)
I can testify I did nothing about it.
Yes. And for your non-intervention, we are eternally grateful and wish to return the favor! LOL.
Quote: FrGambleI'm going to need a lot more evidence to believe in Zeus or Nareed.
How much evidence to believe in Mohammed ??
Quote: NowTheSerpentYes. And for your non-intervention, we are eternally grateful and wish to return the favor! LOL.
I'll take a 1% commission on all winnings I do nothing about ;)
Behold! It is yet another miracle from our blessed Nareed :)Quote: NareedQuote: NowTheSerpentOr Nareed not praying for you. Another miracle! (LOL)
I can testify I did nothing about it.
Quote: FrGambleI'm going to need a lot more evidence to believe in Zeus or Nareed.
That's an interesting statement. What don't you believe about Nareed? That Nareed exists?
... the camera pans away to a group of grey-cloaked figures standing in a torch-lit catacomb surrounding a brazier, all chanting "Nareed" in a low, deliberate monotone. The fire grows higher with the fervor of the chanting until a central figure, taller than the rest and wearing an onyx-black cloak, raises his hands ...
Nah, that's all I have for now. I've probably been watching too many movies. :)
Quote: MathExtremistNah, that's all I have for now. I've probably been watching too many movies. :)
You should read Science Fiction.
I don't have a Nareed story, actually. She's a background character in what I call the Federation Universe. If you're interested, she was the daughter of the king of Antheria, who went further than her father and grandfather did in liberalizing her country. Going so far as abolishing the role of monarch, instead turning over the kingdom to an elected chief of the executive. Generations later, when people from Antheria formed the nucleus of a colony in another world, they named their new world Nareednia in her honor.
I have two stories, yet to write, set there "Betrayal" and "Birth."
One that can put aside trivial issues like famine, disease and war to focus on, more important matters like, helping multi millionaires achieve maximum success in their chosen sporting professions.
Praise!!
Quote: s2dbakerI'm totally switching to Zeus!! He just gave me another $150
Praise!!
That's enough evidence for me.
As soon as someone frames a market on which god is God, I'm going all in on Zeus.
Quote: s2dbakerI'm totally switching to Zeus!! He just gave me another $150
Praise!!
Don't forget Nareed's $1.50 cut off the top!
Quote: NowTheSerpentDon't forget Nareed's $1.50 cut off the top!
That's $1.65 including the $15 win.
Naturally I don't pay off %1 off losses. only take credit for positive results. Anything else was meant to be, is for the best, god's will, etc.
And also naturally, if you don't pay up I'll begin to hope you win. You wouldn't want that, would you? ;)
Quote: MathExtremistThat's an interesting statement. What don't you believe about Nareed? That Nareed exists?
Of course I believe Nareed exists. I guess I could think that because I have never seen Nareed, that there is no Nareed. However, then what about all the writting in the posts. Well I guess they could just have come together at random and just happened to make sense (sometimes;). Nahhh, it would be crazy to believe Nareed doesn't exist.
Quote: FrGambleWell I guess they could just have come together at random and just happened to make sense
You want proof that god exists, so you think
you've found it. People always find what they
search for, one way or another. If actual
proof doesn't exist, pseudo proof works just
as well. Whats the difference.
Quote: FrGambleOf course I believe Nareed exists. I guess I could think that because I have never seen Nareed, that there is no Nareed. However, then what about all the writting in the posts. Well I guess they could just have come together at random and just happened to make sense (sometimes;). Nahhh, it would be crazy to believe Nareed doesn't exist.
Of course Nareed exists! We know that, because we've never seen Nareed. Isn't the burden of proof on the skeptic to prove that there is only a ghostwriter claiming to be Nareed, typing "Methinks it is like a weasel"? LOL.
Why does it flourish in humans?
Quote: AyecarumbaWhy does it flourish in humans?
I view religion the same as superstition. Whats the
difference, they both try and fill the void of knowledge
thats lacking. At one time the world was far more
superstitious that it was religious. Superstition is more
powerful, IMO.
Why does the Sun, the Earth's moon, the stars and the clouds float above our heads? Why do they not fall down to the ground like all other things? Who is pulling them across the sky? There is an effect, there must be a cause and that cause must be a God because no other explanation makes any sense.Quote: AyecarumbaFor those who claim religious expression is delusional, how do you explain its presence from an evolutionary standpoint? Religious expression is found throughout human history, across continents, across income and education levels. It may not have always expressed itself in exactly the same way, but the knowledge that there is, or could be, something beyond our mere physical reality, and the urge to interact with it seems to be a universal human trait.
Why does it flourish in humans?
These things, I warmly wish for you-
Someone to love, some work to do,
A bit of o' sun, a bit o' cheer.
And a guardian angel always near.
Quote: FrGambleWas at a wonderful rally today to celebrate religious freedom in our country! .
Thats right, the Church supports religious freedom now.
Or so they claim. Old habits die hard..
Quote: FrGamblebut that they will reject this ridiculous and insulting mandate which forces many religious people to violate their own conscience.
What's insulting is that Catholics and evangelicals think they get to make decisions concerning the reproductive health of all women in the US. Blood transfusions are for forbidden by Jehovah's Witnesses but they are covered under medical insurance. Should we all rally for revoking blood transfusion coverage?
Quote: PopCanWhat's insulting is that Catholics and evangelicals think they get to make decisions concerning the reproductive health of all women in the US. Blood transfusions are for forbidden by Jehovah's Witnesses but they are covered under medical insurance. Should we all rally for revoking blood transfusion coverage?
One step further, Christian Science eschews medical treatment altogether. Does that mean the individual health insurance mandate in Obamacare (which is in front of SCOTUS, btw) is invalid on religious grounds?
Note: I'm not sure about the legitimacy of the individual mandate, but that's a constitutional concern, not a religious one.
He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them, and to effect this,
they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon,
unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purposes.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio G Spafford, March 17, 1814
Quote: WongBoIn every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty.
He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
Of course this is true. I always think
FrG is pulling our leg when he talks
about the Church supporting religious
freedom.
Quote: WongBoIn every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty.
He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
Quote: EvenBobOf course this is true. I always think
FrG is pulling our leg when he talks
about the Church supporting religious
freedom.
Of course Jefferson is wrong and is bitterly generalizing when refering to, in the context of the letter, specifically those priests who were loyal to the English Crown. I find the quote especially wrongheaded as the Pope arrives in Mexico where the Church was so viciously persecuted. The Church has always been persecuted and attacked by despots because they know they must first get rid of the annoyning priests who remind people of their God given dignity, rights, and freedom, which no government can take away.
Anyway I thank you for the quote because it reminded me of Horatio Spafford's son who wrote the beautiful hymn "It is well with my soul" after the tragic loss of his daughters in a shipwreck. His Christian faith gave him true liberty to get through that moment. Here are the lyrics to that song to give us hope that our precious religious freedom and the Bill of Rights will always be respected.
"[A] bill of rights is what the people are entitled to against every government on earth, general or particular, and what no just government should refuse."
--- Thomas Jefferson December 20, 1787
It Is Well With My Soul
When peace like a river, attendeth my way,
When sorrows like sea billows roll;
Whatever my lot, Thou hast taught me to say,
It is well, it is well, with my soul.
Refrain:
It is well, with my soul,
It is well, with my soul,
It is well, it is well, with my soul.
Though Satan should buffet, though trials should come,
Let this blest assurance control,
That Christ has regarded my helpless estate,
And hath shed His own blood for my soul.
My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought!
My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more,
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!
For me, be it Christ, be it Christ hence to live:
If Jordan above me shall roll,
No pang shall be mine, for in death as in life,
Thou wilt whisper Thy peace to my soul.
But Lord, 'tis for Thee, for Thy coming we wait,
The sky, not the grave, is our goal;
Oh, trump of the angel! Oh, voice of the Lord!
Blessed hope, blessed rest of my soul.
And Lord, haste the day when my faith shall be sight,
The clouds be rolled back as a scroll;
The trump shall resound, and the Lord shall descend,
Even so, it is well with my soul.
Horatio Spafford
Quote: FrGambleOf course Jefferson is wrong and is bitterly generalizing
Thomas Jefferson is wrong and you're right.
Isn't your attitude covered under one of the
7 deadly sins?
So now that the shoe is on the other foot, it's really hard not to want to see them try to walk a mile like that.
But they do have a point. This time.
It's too bad they won't address the root of the problem, which is we've let government dictate and regulate things it has no business messing with for far too long. It's too bad they won't remember the separation between Church and State, either. But worst of all, they won't ever acknowledge that freedom of religion also implies freedom from religion.
No. Once they win this battle, and even if they lose it, they'll be pushing the governments' guns to force everyone else into something else they support, or away from something they oppose.
Quote: NareedIt's hard not to enjoy the spectacle of the Church squirming, or of the religious right suddenly discovering, and praising to the heavens, the separation of Church and State. After all, these people would have no problem with using government power to, say, ban legal abortion, or mandating the teaching of creationism, or banning contraceptives, or restricting the sale of liquor, or for that matter criminalizing drugs. These are the same people who keep bringing up the Bible to oppose any kind of same-sex marriage, too.
So now that the shoe is on the other foot, it's really hard not to want to see them try to walk a mile like that.
But they do have a point. This time.
It's too bad they won't address the root of the problem, which is we've let government dictate and regulate things it has no business messing with for far too long. It's too bad they won't remember the separation between Church and State, either. But worst of all, they won't ever acknowledge that freedom of religion also implies freedom from religion.
No. Once they win this battle, and even if they lose it, they'll be pushing the governments' guns to force everyone else into something else they support, or away from something they oppose.
Nareed makes a very good point. This time.
On this 32nd anniversary of the martyrdom of Archbishop Romero here is a brief excerpt from the homily he was giving when he was shot and killed:
"You have just heard in Christ’s gospel that one must not love oneself so much as to avoid getting involved in the risks of life that history demands of us, and that those who try to fend off the danger will lose their lives, while those who out of love for Christ give themselves to the service of others, will live, live like the grain of wheat that dies, but only apparently. If it did not die, it would remain alone. The harvest comes about only because it dies, allowing itself to be sacrificed in the earth and destroyed. Only by undoing itself does it produce the harvest....
This is the hope that inspires us as Christians. We know that every effort to better society, especially when justice and sin are so ingrained, is an effort that God blesses, that God wants, that God demands of us.... "
Quote: WongBoIn every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty.
He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.Quote: EvenBobOf course this is true. I always think
FrG is pulling our leg when he talks
about the Church supporting religious
freedom.
I have to disagree. "Liberation Theology" put the Catholic Church, and its priests at odds with South America's despots in the 1970's.
So, if a janitor who is employed by the Watchtower Society in Brooklyn, NY gets hit by a bus leaving work one night and needs a blood transfusion, and he's not a JW, then you're okay with him not getting that transfusion because his employer doesn't believe in it, even though he himself wants the transfusion but can't afford to pay for it outside of his insurance plan.Quote: FrGambleThat is probably why you don't see many Jehovah's Witnesses Hospitals. If there were any hospitals run by that religious group I wouldn't expect to get a blood transfusion there. There are plenty of places you can get a blood transfusion including every Catholic hospital, so I don't think we need to have the government force Jehovah's Witnesses into giving blood transfusions or making them pay for other people's blood transfusions.
I am also not okay with you seeming to equate blood transfusions with contraceptives. I see a big difference between blood transfusions and artificial birth control on many levels. The Church does not believe in contraceptions, sterilizations, or abortificiants but no one is talking about banning or making them illegal. They are very common, easily avaliable, and affordable or free (I should add IMHO also destructive to society).
By the way your example, which is used in a lot of moral theology textbooks except the victim who needs a transfusion is a JW, is a tough one. Do you break his religious beliefs and give him one anyway to save his life or in respecting his religious traditions withold possible life saving treatment? I always though it would help to have some rational reason behind JW's teaching against blood transfusions, but I have never heard a good one.
