Please rag on religion here, not in FrGamble

Quote: rxwine

Oh I assume, not much.

:) I should have stated that slightly better as "what if God is outside of time and past/present/future is meaningless... it's all there already complete?"

I should add: to judge you when I created you. It makes a difference if I didn't.

Quote: FrGamble

If someone knows I am going to do something, how does it effect my free will to choose it? It seems to me that my freedom is not removed just because my choices are known to God.
I think it helps to remember that God is outside of time, where there is no suspense or succesion of seconds.

Oops, edited my whole post.

If I know what you are going to do every time, no exeptions there's no difference, particularly if I created you and am planning on judging you.

Quote: rxwine

Oops, edited my whole post.

If I know what you are going to do every time, no exeptions there's no difference, particularly if I created you and am planning on judging you.

better to have loved and lost?

I had to look something up.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
"And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

There is time in heaven? Is God in Heaven?

Quote: rxwine

I had to look something up.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
"And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

There is time in heaven? Is God in Heaven?

That is a prophetic vision.... seems odd that the original text included such a specific measure of time. I would think this was something added much later. But I am not smart enough to know when people started measuring hours and half hour. I cant imagine that G_D would measure time and for those in heaven for that matter. If the physical life is just a small part of our soul's existence time would really be meaningless.

I think the crux of the issue is: did God create people where he knew some were going to reject him and go to Hell, and why would he do that? Versus, if he did not know that before they were created how can he be omniscient?

By some people, I actually mean, he already knew their names and all. Very specific knowledge.

Quote: rxwine

I think the crux of the issue is: did God create people where he knew some were going to reject him and go to Hell, and why would he do that? Versus, if he did not know that before they were created how can he be omniscient?

Ours is not to question why :)

Seriously. The way the god character is conceived, he can help but to pile on contradictions and nonsense. As an intellectual exercise, though, if I were to take the notion of god seriously, I'd stick to what makes sense. Namely the line about god creating man in his image and likeness.

Of course this means god is some kind of humanoid creature. But his actual appearance is irrelevant. Instead the passage also means god has a mind not dissimilar to a human being's. Therefore god would also enjoy the thrill of the unexpected, pleasant surprises, an element of chance in the workings of the universe, and so on. I mean, if he already knows all that is going to happen, he'd be bored out of his mind.

God still thinks that the Moon is a light source:

Genesis1:14 - And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years

How many people consider the psychology of the conversion experience? There have been studies of it. (though I think mostly only free abstracts are available online)

Actually, I think there is a new term (or at least now popular) for a conversion experience that's come to the fore lately. Radicalization. As applied to the "radical" Islamists. But the experience itself can apply to other conversions in different faiths.

Although there can be an analytical slow approach to conversion with much study and immersion, there is quite a bit of radical turns too.

While it's tough to prove that someone is simply overwhelmed with much confusing and mind altering concepts instead of the awareness of a god that they may claim, it's worth considering. Many of the ideas are difficult to suss out properly even with much time. And some ideas, (as far as I'm concerned) are too murky to even be sure what's understood, though there's no lack of claiming.

If conversion were simply an intellectual experience there probably wouldn't be many converts. An emotional experience is a confirming force of proof. I'm not really sure what the success of places like the Salvation Army in converting with the down and outers and such. There's the idea of being more susceptible in a weakened state. Although I've met a few street people that are pretty tough shells and will listen to preaching if they have too and are no different afterwards other than less hungry.

Just my opinion, of course.

Quote: Scotty71

That is a prophetic vision.... seems odd that the original text included such a specific measure of time. I would think this was something added much later. But I am not smart enough to know when people started measuring hours and half hour. I cant imagine that G_D would measure time and for those in heaven for that matter. If the physical life is just a small part of our soul's existence time would really be meaningless.

"about (the space of) half an hour" is not all that specific.

Doesn't the fact that "the good of the many outweighs the wants of one" mean that people are more important than God?

Quote: rxwine

Isn't any religious belief better than none?

Isn't a rational or empirically sound explanation for a causality better than a superstitious one?

Quote: NowTheSerpent

Isn't a rational or empirically sound explanation for a causality better than a superstitious one?

It probably is. I've not followed this thread, which supposedly is my thread, even though it started with an on-topic reply to another post that was not at all religious or anti-religious.

Religion seems based on fear, training and habits. As with most fears, fear of the unknown is the greatest. There is also the component of the unpreventable which is why we fear earthquakes and air crashes more than we should.

Religions are institutions and in many societies they hold sway over vast areas of society and various priests, ministers, shaman, etc. want power and want to protect their institutional power as it is entrenched in society.

People believe in strange things all the time. I know some people are utterly convinced in Multi Level Marketing schemes. It seems to me no better or worse than a belief in something that might be viewed as more religious in nature. Comparisons of virginal births to spontaneous consumption fall on deaf ears because all believers choose to close their ears to contrary evidence.

We teach little brats certain rules of behavior but we only live by them if we fear we might get caught. Health is better than wealth is often uttered but I hereby present you with a "virtual cartoon": Everyone is sitting around the lawyers office for the absolutely imaginary formal reading of the will. At the line "And to Harold who always said that Health Is Better Than Wealth, I leave my rowing machine". What do you think the expression on Harold's face is? How much do you think Harold got from his wife that night?
Sure honesty is the best policy. Any Enron executive will tell you that, particularly those that are rich and now the largest private land holder in the state of Colorado. Any recruiting officer will tell it to you too. Just about anyone will say it, but only the absolute idiots (Bible thumpers, Multi Level Marketing gurus, etc.) actually believe it.

Be they Old Wives Tales, Superstitions, Urban Legends, or Hollywood Rumors,,, people believe all sorts of nonsense. Throw in the mass media and you can easily get True Believers in such things as Facilitated Communication, Child Sexual Abuse in daycare centers, trafficking of White Slaves, Dimes for Polio, Dimes for Liberating Slaves in Africa, Public Transportation, Tenure for Teachers and Civil "Servants", Medical care for [African, Bangladesh, Jamaican, etc] Poor, Working Hard and Saving Your Money, Voting, etc.

I see little difference between these people who believe in the triumph of good over evil and those who were sending off One Hundred Dollars to get Wal Mart Gift Cards worth Two Hundred Dollars. It is a voluntary suspension of belief and suspension in all critical reasoning processes. Its the keno playing heroin addict who keeps playing keno and keeps doing heroin. Those who constantly thump Bibles are not going to stop thumping their Bibles. And those who are forever playing Keno are not going to stop playing Keno. Rational thinking is not part of the equation. It rarely is.

If believing any old thing had real immediate consequences, maybe more people would be disinclined to do so.

Quote:

STATESVILLE, N.C. — Authorities say a man who was waiting with several friends for a "ghost train" from a North Carolina legend was killed when a real train came down the tracks.

Iredell County Sheriff Phil Redmond says 29-year-old Christopher Kaiser of Charlotte was killed about 2:45 a.m. Friday as he waited with friends at a railroad trestle. Redmond says witnesses said about 12 people were on the trestle hoping to see a ghost train when the real train rounded a bend.

Everyone but Kaiser was able to clear the tracks at the end of the trestle. The train struck Kaiser, who was thrown into a ravine.

The legend developed from a train wreck on Aug. 27, 1891, that killed about two dozen people and injured many others. Folklore Web sites claim the accident can be heard on each anniversary.

Quote: rxwine

How many people consider the psychology of the conversion experience?

Conversions have to be followed up by almost
constant positive reinforcement. And even then,
most of the converted backslide. Conversion is
an illusion, but its fun while it lasts. Any church
service you go to is populated by 99.9% true
believers. In other words, those who were born
into it. They couldn't shake it if they wanted to..

I would say that probably 70% are true believers with the other 30% being married into it. I was born into a Lutheran family (my Dad converted into it), going to church every Sunday and partipating in Communion classes when I was in middle school. After that, my mother had a falling out with the church and my eyes were opened.

I've found that a great majority of people who are posting here (on the forum overall, not in this thread) are not believers. It's fair I think to say that organized religion has brought a great deal of joy into some people's lives and has brought a great deal of misery to a few. Can you state that the Catholic church should be destroyed because of a few bad priests? Can you forgive the Catholic church for the dark ages?

Some people require a belief that there is something beyond this world in order to live a fulfilled life, and that's something that I ascribe to. I think that without God in some people's lives, they would be living an aimless existence with no goals and no definition of what's truly right or wrong in the world. There are alot of people in this world who didn't have strong parents or a strong belief system until they found God. Think of all of the sporting heroes in this world who thank God for their success.

I'll be called on for personal weakness because I believe that there is a greater purpose on this world and that God is in my heart, despite the overwhelming lack of evidence to support my belief. You can be an athiest and live you life with purpose, drive, and goodness. After all, the presence of God in one's life can be an excuse for laziness (after all, life is eternal). At least if you're athiest, you know that you have one life and you gotta make the best of it.

Quote: FleaStiff

Just about anyone will say (health is better than wealth), but only the absolute idiots (Bible thumpers, Multi Level Marketing gurus, etc.) actually believe it.

By "Bible thumpers", I assume you only mean naive literalists?

Quote: boymimbo

At least if you're athiest, you know that you have one life and you gotta make the best of it.

I don't know how many atheists believe in life after death, but that's actually possible while remaining an atheist.

Most would argue it's more logical to adopt a consistent strategy for believing in things rather than decide willynilly what to believe.

But technically, you could still believe in an endless list of incredible things, since atheism is really only about deity belief (rejection or lack of)

I laughed at yesterday's Dear Abby.

DEAR ABBY: I am a middle-aged woman who is Baptist by faith. I believe that when I die I will go to heaven. My problem is, if going to heaven means being reunited with my parents and other family members, then I don't want to go! The idea of spending eternity with them is more than I can stand, but I don't want to go to hell, either. Any thoughts? -- ETERNALLY CONFUSED IN MISSISSIPPI

DEAR ETERNALLY CONFUSED: Yes. When you reach the pearly gates, talk this over with St. Peter. Perhaps he would be willing to place you in a different wing than the one your parents and other family members are staying in. And in the meantime, discuss this with your minister.

Quote: rxwine

Proselytizing is annoying but effective. Stuff and ideas have spread the world round through sales techniques.

Plenty of people have bought crap they never knew they needed or wanted because of salespeople.

Just consider the Jehovah's Witnesses - they're probably the most aggressive salespeople in the entire world.

Quote: rxwine

I don't know how many atheists believe in life after death, but that's actually possible while remaining an atheist.

Life after death: How you exist perpetually in minds of others, based on the way you lived your life while present among them.

True happiness is dying with the answer, like being old when you're young to be young when you're old. Thinking about things like, "Does the other exist?" And how to "kill two birds with one stone".

Sounds similar to King Solomon's story about finding the true baby mama:

Quote:

One day when Prince Siddhartha and his cousin Devadatta were walking in the woods, they saw a swan. Quickly, Devadatta drew his bow and shot the swan down. Siddhartha rushed to the wounded swan and pulled out the arrow. He held the bird in his arms and caressed it.

Devadatta angrily shouted at Prince Siddhartha, "Give me the swan. I shot it. It belongs to me!"

"I shall never give it to you, You will only kill it!" said the prince firmly. "Let's ask the ministers of the court and let them decide."

The ministers all had different views. Some said, "The swan should be given to Devadatta." Others said, "It should go to Prince Siddhartha." One wise minister stood up and said, "A life belongs to one who saves it, not to one who will destroy it. The swan goes to the prince."

Prince Siddhartha took care of the swan until it could fly again. Then he turned it loose so it could live freely with its own kind.

The Basic Teachings of Buddha