Please rag on religion here, not in FrGamble

Quote: MrV

source: study

OMG, they looked at some posts on an autism forum
and thats the 'study'? Thats a nothing, its a wisp of
nothing. You can prove anything you like by looking
at small parts of something and drawing big conclusions.

Quote: Keyser

Well Mr. V., It appears that my preconceived notions were spot on with regards to the study that you listed above. I was NOT aware of that study until you posted.

Don't pat yourself too hard on your back there, boyo: the study is not definitive and most certainly does not support your claim that all atheists are "likely autistic."

That would be like me claiming that ALL Catholic priests are altar boy banging pedophiles.

Some, sure, but not all: others prefer little girls, or dogs.

Ah, the price is steep to dedicate oneself to god ...

Are you sure that you're not short like Evenbob?

Quote: Keyser

Over the years, I have simply noticed that an unusually high number of people that call themselves atheist are also autistic.
In general, people that were heavily picked on by others while in school for various reasons, also tend to be devout atheists.
By the nature of the disease, autistic people are also heavily teased and taunted by others during adolescence as well.
This is where I see a large part of the unusual rebelliousness and antisocial behavior having been reinforced. As an adult, they tend to partly resent there fellow man and any and all sense of authority. Consequently they feel they will show everyone by making their desperate cries for attention by rebelling against the ultimate authority - God.

Interesting. I'm pretty sure I'm not autistic, if for no other reason that I can express myself, speak in front of an audience, etc, etc. Asperger's I think would be a stretch as well; I just don't see similarities between myself and some cases I've seen. I HAVE suffered high level bullying, been in quite a few fights in my day. Teased and taunted, sure. And yeah, I'm much more... aggressive... in real life than I am in this internet persona. Rebelliousness, antisocial behavior...do you know me in real life? Add in depression and drug abuse and you have my entire adolescence summed up in one paragraph. But what does this mean?

I have a hard time imagining God, at least when taking it to the point of as if he were real. Does that mean something? I'm not so sure. I know for a fact the speed of light. I know how far away the moon is, the sun is. I once knew how many helium molecules were in the Goodyear blimp. But if I'm honest, I can't truely imagine any of these things. I always assumed this was a common human problem. Sometimes things get so big or so small it's outside of the perameters of the mind. I thought that's why quantum physicists and quantum mechanists (?) were so rare. Can you imagine eternity? Infinity? Does the fact that you can or can't mean anything?

And if it does mean something, does that meaning have anything to do with the existence or nonexistence of God? For the life of me I don't see how it can. The Earth was always round, no matter peoples ability to conceive it as so. The surface of Io will always be colder than you could ever hope to percieve. You cannot possibly imagine or envision the size of the universe and it's contents, but it's out there nonetheless. So why such passion? I think that question is much more interesting that "does He exist".

Seriously though, doesn't it near hilarity? You insinuate that athiests may be mental defectives. Logan used to rail on how miserable we all are. Even FrGamble cannot find one single thing good to say about us. And you all can't help but constantly remind us of your feelings. And we're no better, comparing God to Santa, fairy tales, using the mental illness taunt, and on and on. Like sodium and water, reacting explosively is just how it has to go down. Why is that? Both sides have their beliefs, they're in stark contrast to one another, but we ALL would have to admit that NEITHER of us can possibly know. Personally, I think coming closer to an answer would be best done by examining the "why" and not the "what". That's why I took no offense at you basically saying I have brain problems, it was a question/answer of the "why". The Bible, texts, history, that's the "what", and it's been done to death. Nothing new is going to come of it. So what about the "why"? Could some answers be found there?

(P.S. thank you IKJL for the compliment ;))

Quote: Keyser

Evenbob,You are quoting the website's quotes, not me.

Whatever. Bottom line is, you for some reason have
to believe that atheists have to have some kind of
mental disorder in order not to believe in god. What
does that say about you..

It's the expressing that you're an atheist that gives it away.

Quote: Keyser

It's the expressing that you're an atheist that gives it away.

I'm in good company. Einstein and Hemingway. Good
enough for me.

A wise man may say, "I believe that there is a god, I believe that there is no god, or I'm not sure if there is a god."

A fool will say, "I know there is NOT a god."

A religious man looks at the night sky, and thinks "Wow, god does nice work."

An atheist looks at the night sky, and thinks "Where can I get some good weed and a hot chick to blow me?"

Quote: MrV

An atheist looks at the night sky, and thinks "Where can I get some good weed and a hot chick to blow me?"

LOL!

Quote: Keyser

A fool will say, "I know there is NOT a god."

Thats another good reason not to believe in god.
The twits that DO believe in him...

Quote: MrV

An atheist looks at the night sky, and thinks "Where can I get some good weed and a hot chick to blow me?"

So YOU were stalking me in my adolescence, too? ;)

Quote: Keyser

Question, when you smile does the left side of your smile tend to rise higher than the right side of your smile? In other words is it just a little lopsided? (It's just a little something I'm working involving some other preconceived notions.)

I'll bite. Full on smile, like belly laugh or overexagerating for my kid, it's pretty symetrical. If I just find light pleasure in something, or am amused, or pissed off, yeah, right side stays put, left side quirks up. Eyebrow too, the left is much more used in expression than my right. What do you believe this means? Like a right-side/left-side brain connection, or something more obscure?

Quote: Keyser

A wise man may say, "I believe that there is a god, I believe that there is no god, or I'm not sure if there is a god."

A fool will say, "I know there is NOT a god."

So when a man says "I know there IS a god", by your logic, wouldn't that make him a fool?

It depends, has the person somehow met God?

Quote: MathExtremist

So when a man says "I know there IS a god", by your logic, wouldn't that make him a fool?

God cannot be proven, so both statements are exactly
equal. Both are speculation.

No, actually they are not. If you actually met God in person, you could say that you know that there's a god.

However, if you never met God, all you could say is that you believe that there is or is not a god.

At this point I think we are trying to parse words.

Quote: Keyser

No, actually they are not. If you actually met God in person, you could say that you know that there's a god.

And if you could lick your own ass, you could say
you're as good as a dog. But you can't, and there
isn't. If you think you actually met god, you and
Jerry Falwell should get a room together. A rubber
room..

As I've said in the past, I feel that the Evangelicals-people like Jerry Falwell and company have given religion in general a bad name.

Quote: Keyser

As I've said in the past, I feel that the Evangelicals-people like Jerry Falwell and company have given religion in general a bad name.

How is him meeting god and you meeting god
different? Its still ass licking, neither one of you
has done it.

Bob,

Your bitterness is again showing.

You need to eat more moral fiber. You appear to be running a bit low.

Quote: Keyser

You need to eat more moral fiber.

Did god tell you to say that? (snicker)

I love the way this thread appears under the -annoucements- section as

"Please Rag on Religion".

Very droll, Mr Wizard.

If I understand Christianity, people who never heard of it, but are told about it and don't believe would have been better off never having been told.

So a certain percentage of people are likely always being doomed because conversions are never 100% (if the proposition is true)

Since this is a blog meant for ragging, I was wondering if anybody other than me has ever noticed how most Christians seem to be super judgmental of others? At least that's been my experience.

How can a Christian possibly be judgemental of others? Isn't being a Christian all about recognizing that you're faulty/sinful and acknowledging you need a savior? Not to mention things like "love your enemy" "judge not or you will be judged" etc etc.

Quote: rxwine

If I understand Christianity, people who never heard of it,.....

What about all those unfortunate folks who were born before Christianity was invented? All those folks born in 100 BC and before couldn't have asked Jesus for forgiveness and couldn't have been saved....what happened to those poor, poor people? Oohhhh, the humanity!

Quote: zippyboy

What about all those unfortunate folks who were born before Christianity was invented? All those folks born in 100 BC and before couldn't have asked Jesus for forgiveness and couldn't have been saved....what happened to those poor, poor people? Oohhhh, the humanity!

Or children or mentally retarded people who don't understand the concept of being born-again by "giving your life over to Christ"? Again this was brought up when I was a Christian and again I was met with some flimsy excuse.

Another thing that I wanted to comment on is the fact that in a lot of the readings I've done lately I've noticed that it's pointed out that life is experienced from the inside out, that there really is no "out there". So if I look at the world and see things wrong with it I'm confused because there can't be anything wrong with the world since there is nothing that exists outside myself. If I think that something is wrong with the world then in reality there is something wrong with ME because the world is nothing less than my own perception.

Anyway, the reason I bring this up here is because I was just thinking recently that it's possible that Christians, with good intentions of course, misunderstand a lot of what they read in the Bible. For example, in the gospel of John when Jesus says, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." that really what he was saying (easily misunderstood), "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through ME.", the I meaning ME, not the I as referring to Jesus himself who was speaking.

Now I know that, from what I understand, that all or most of the Bible was originally written in Hebrew and that it has been translated many times, and I don't know the exact processes of trying to restore the original meanings of the words and concepts and etc. But the above paragraph was just something that came to mind recently. Just curious if anyone has any thoughts on this.

The new testament was originally written in greek. You're incorrect in your translation. If Jesus was saying there was more than one way to the Father then why would Jesus need to die?

Quote: ikilledjerrylogan

The new testament was originally written in greek. You're incorrect in your translation. If Jesus was saying there was more than one way to the Father then why would Jesus need to die?

I don't know. The fact that Christians believe a lot of stuff that just doesn't make sense to a normal mind is just hard for me to comprehend. And again, I used to believe this stuff myself over the course of 4 years in my life. But that's what I was taught to believe. Jesus had to die so we could be saved, he died and woke up from being dead and flew into heaven, the Noah's ark story, the Adam and Eve story, etc., etc. I just find it crazy that people believe that this stuff ACTUALLY happened, that there was a time in life when things were this magical even though it's not like that now. There's an excuse for everything.

Well its really a matter of perspective. Some people (recovered drug addicts, homeless, starving, volunteers for the homeless etc.) cling to their faith in a God/heaven where they and those they love will be free from pain. They eagerly believe in all those stories and fantasies because their reality in this life is so miserable. The idea of a God can easily seem absurd when your belly is full, roof over your head and an expendable income for gambling.

Quote: HotBlonde

Or children or mentally retarded people who don't understand the concept of being born-again by "giving your life over to Christ"? Again this was brought up when I was a Christian and again I was met with some flimsy excuse.

Very good question.

As to language, the common language of the Eastern Roman Empire was a form of Greek. But the language of the people in what is now Israel was Ancient Hebrew (which is quite different from the modern version). In any case, the works have been translated, re-translated and so on, and undoubtedly there have been distortions along the way.

Remember, too, that until the invention of the printing press, books were copied by hand. The chance for introducing errors was very good. This goes for all ancient books, including notable Greek Tragedies, The Iliad, The Aeneid, The Book of the Death, etc.

Quote: HotBlonde

The fact that Christians believe a lot of stuff that just doesn't make sense to a normal mind is just hard for me to comprehend. ....... he died and woke up from being dead and flew into heaven, the Noah's ark story, the Adam and Eve story, etc., etc. I just find it crazy that people believe that this stuff ACTUALLY happened, ....

It doesn't make sense to a normal mind today, but back then people were ignorant and had to make up stories to explain the unknown. The smartest among them added punishments for NOT believing the made-up stories. And then they added tithing to avoid those punishments, and added military to help enforce the tithing, and so on and so on.

The stories were things the people with their limited knowledge of physics could comprehend (turn water into wine, part the Red Sea, rise from the dead, flooding of the world as they knew it...etc), notice our own fictional movies today have similar stories (living inside a Matrix grid, teleportation to other planets of a Galactic Empire, interstellar travel, vampires, aliens, etc) except our leaders today don't force us to believe them and punish us if we don't. Oh, zombies are as popular today as that Jewish Zombie was 2000 years ago.

I bet the average 4th grader today knows more about geography, medicine and nutrition than the wisest minds of 2000 years ago.

Quote: zippyboy

...except our leaders today don't force us to believe them and punish us if we don't.

I bet the average 4th grader today knows more about geography, medicine and nutrition than the wisest minds of 2000 years ago.

zippy you gotta show some respect. We are standing on the shoulders of giants who without all of the help from modern technology we rely upon so heavily today figured out all kind of stuff about math and philosophy we use to this very day. They built things without any of our modern tools that we couldn't build today. I remember an architect student telling me that they have some theories but how they built the dome of the Pantheon in Rome is still a mystery to us.

What you also forget is that the armies of mighty Rome and all those in power at the time tried their darndest to squash these stories about the resurrected Jesus Christ. The miltary of the known world was against a small group of fisherman and disciples who had encountered something so powerful in the person of Jesus that they could not be silenced. More proof that the truth will always win out, even against military oppression, government persecution, and ignorant internet posts.

The Romans were no better at killing roaches either.

Does it take any less faith to believe that in the beginning there was nothing and then it exploded (banged)?

Quote: FrGamble

More proof that the truth will always win out, even against military oppression, government persecution, and ignorant internet posts.

Something won, sort of, but it wasn't the truth.

One of my favorite sayings is, "The truth will out." It has proven itself over and over again. IMO it proves itself again in the case of Christianity.

p.s. Dear Wizard could you please move this thread to the off-topic or free speech category where these discussions usually take place? Announcements doesn't seem like the right place. Thanks for your consideration.

Quote: ikilledjerrylogan

Does it take any less faith to believe that in the beginning there was nothing and then it exploded (banged)?

One difference is, every science theory could change somewhat given some evidence either supporting or refuting some critical pillars.

And that's okay.

No matter how absent the proof, god could still be hiding somewhere. Not to mention, which god it might be.

Quote: FrGamble

zippy you gotta show some respect.

I appreciate your being here Father, to give the opposing side, but....um, what's the name of this thread again?

Quote: FrGamble

....a small group of fisherman and disciples who had encountered something so powerful in the person of Jesus that they could not be silenced. More proof that the truth will always win out, ...

Proof? Truth? Puh-leeeese. My belief is that Jesus (IF he existed at all) was a human carpenter who preached loving thy neighbor, along side all the other street preachers who had their own messages. He got to be too much of a threat to authority, was crucified along side the other criminals of the day, went into a coma where his lifesigns weren't readable by the primitive medicine of the day, came out it 3 days later and freaked out the ignorant masses, who created fantastic stories to explain what they thought was divine interference. No photos, no newspapers, only stories told around a bonfire like the Native Indians here in America. Story grew wilder with each telling until they were finally put to paper. I personally like how Moses himself is supposed to have written the Old Testament, making himself the hero, kinda like some bloggers do today, except Moses' stories have proven to have staying power. The uneducated people of the day probably couldn't question what he wrote since they couldn't read. Children believed it like they do Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, but after getting older, they realize it's ridiculous and physically impossible. Every schoolkid should know by now it's impossible to rain everywhere in the world at the same time, especially enough to flood the planet up to the top of Everest. Or that a man can shake a staff and cause an entire sea to part for long enough to lead an army of Israelites to Canaan. Makes a good story though. Way to go, Moses!

The Bible has been amended by every pope and king for hundreds of years to adapt it to his own agenda. And by "his", I mean having a penis, because women have been kept down throughout the centuries, haven't they? Is that fair? Mid-east religions (or pop culture) even make it a crime for women to be equal. Where is Jesus to protect his female children in Saudi Arabia?

My opinion is that with ALL the religions and beliefs of the world...if you guys can't get together and agree on things, they ALL lose credibility. In fact, if I can convert to a different religion just because I want to marry a hot Catholic, then my old beliefs must not have been very important, could they? How many times are we allowed to change religions in life anyway? If I don't like the idea of Hell, can I just switch to Buddhism? If people don't believe in Christianity's version of the hereafter, can they be saved? Or is it okay with you if they have a similar belief, just not Christianity? How about the aborigines of New Guinea? They believe in something don't they....just not Jesus? Sun God, maybe? Rain God? Is that okay with you? Is it okay that they fall under the mass hypnosis of the invisible man in the sky, just not your man in the sky, is that okay with you? Is it any of your business anyway? Is it your job as a priest to convert more people to the Sunday collection plate and add to the church's coffers? Isn't that the duty of every priest regardless of denomination? Isn't the Catholic Church the richest entity in the world and the biggest landowner in the world?

I remind you that this is just a post in the "rag on religion" thread. You can console yourself that I'll probably burn in hell for this.

Zippy that is an interesting story you tell about Christianity, again I think I will take the truth and not your made up version.

I know this is a rag on religion thread so I will leave you to your regularly scheduled craziness, but your zombie line struck me too hard to be ignored.
By the way I believe that everyone who is seeking God is doing something wonderful. One important and unique aspect of religion in general is that it draws us out of ourself to focus on something bigger. It is intuitive in all people to strive to find meaning and purpose to this life and to not be pulled into the selfish tendices we all have. So yes it is okay to me that everone follows their own path to their God, I'd like to invite them to travel on the path I have discovered because I believe it is the surest, safest, and straighest path, but ultimately we are all leading to the same place. By the way this is the thought of religious freedom, ecumenism, and interreligious dialogue found in Vatican II.

My hope is also that because you are at least thinking about these things and searching for truth in some capacity that you are on a path towards Heaven too. So happy searching, but might I recommend a different thread to find the truth and a little more research on your history. Peace.

Quote: FrGamble

Zippy ....

My hope is also that because you are at least thinking about these things and searching for truth in some capacity that you are on a path towards Heaven too. So happy searching, but might I recommend a different thread to find the truth and a little more research on your history. Peace.

Oh, Father, I do think of these things often, and I do wish it was so. I would LOVE there to be a peaceful place where there is no pain as portrayed in the cinema. My favorite movies of all time are about death and what lies beyond, and how man can find the path away from selfishness towards helping others. Think of All That Jazz, Fearless, A River Runs Through it, Groundhog Day, Leaving Las Vegas and Last Day (with Sandra Oh). I wish it, but it's so difficult to believe what I've been told. I tend to think of the world as inter-related. We die, and return to the Earth from where we came. Life goes on without us. It's like a crap table that's been going for 1000's of years. I walk up to it, play for a while and leave, but the game goes on without me.

Quote: zippyboy

Proof? Truth? Puh-leeeese. My belief is that Jesus (IF he existed at all) was a human carpenter.

Live by the nail, die by the nail.

I've wondered sometimes if Jesus could only drive nails straight. Seems like he wouldn't be allowed to bend one or drive it in crooked.

Quote: zippyboy

He got to be too much of a threat to authority, was crucified along side the other criminals of the day, went into a coma where his lifesigns weren't readable by the primitive medicine of the day, came out it 3 days later and freaked out the ignorant masses, who created fantastic stories to explain what they thought was divine interference.

In order to create a miracle such as resurrection, you need an identical twin no one has met.

Not that that happened, but hey it is at least in the area of worldly things that are not in the supernatural realm.

Quote: ikilledjerrylogan

Does it take any less faith to believe that in the beginning there was nothing and then it exploded (banged)?

It doesn't take any "faith" at all. Edwin Hubble discovered this. It wasn't even a theory. Hubble discovered that the universe was flying apart. If you reverse time, you discover that at some point, the universe was all in one spot. The evidence created the theory, not the other way around.

Quote: rxwine

In order to create a miracle such as resurrection, you need an identical twin no one has met.

Not that that happened, but hey it is at least in the area of worldly things that are not in the supernatural realm.

What makes you think the entire resurrection wasn't just woven out of thin air?

Let's think about it. Christianity did indeed make inroads in both halves of the Roman Empire, despite prosecution and persecution from Byzanthium and Rome. It established major centers in both capitals,eventually, too. It basically performed a hostile, spiritual takeover of the whoel Empire. Impressive indeed.

But it made little to no headway in its place of birth.

This may seem contradictory, but it makes sense. For one thing, Jesus is sold as being the Messiah and the fulfillment of prophecy, or so I've been given to understand. Now, from what I recall of prophecies about the Messiah, Jesus wasn't it. there was no beating of swords into plowshares, for one thing. So the native Hebrew people wouldn't buy the Jesus-centric gosspel, not in large enough quantities.

Outisde Israel, though, what or who Jesus was doesn't matter and isn't well known. Whether he was the Messiah or not, descended from King David or not, is irrelevant. What would pagans, Zoroastrians and others care whether he was or was not the fullfilment of another religion's prophecies? But being told he was the incarnation of god as well as the son of god does sound impressive. Being told he could work miracles, like killing off innocent fig trees, or healing the sick, or walking on water, is even better.

But it isn't enough.

At the time people believed in magic, miracles and all other related subjects. Oracles, diviners, etc were common. Major civilizations like the Greeks even fought side by side with their gods, agaisnt other gods. One more man who could do miracles, even if amny of them, was impressive, sure, but hardly unique.

Ah, but raising himself from the dead, now that's really something. That's unique and that's something different than what everyone knows, even from other magic and miracle workers. Even Achilles was only nearly invulnerable. Jesus does him one better, allowing himself to be killed ina brutal fashiona dn then rising from the grave as though nothing bad happened.

I'm not sayign it was thought out like that, or even that this was the only factor, but it surely played a role along such lines. It's possible Jesus was in a comma rather than dead and he recovered from it. It's alos possible the resurrection was simply made up to enhance his rpestige. Power over life and death is reserved to the gods, after all.

The moral of the story is "Don't bother to examine a folly. Simply ask yourself what it accomplishes."

Quote: s2dbaker

It doesn't take any "faith" at all. Edwin Hubble discovered this. It wasn't even a theory. Hubble discovered that the universe was flying apart. If you reverse time, you discover that at some point, the universe was all in one spot. The evidence created the theory, not the other way around.

Theory says that the universe was created 13.75 billion years ago, which is fine.

So, what was around BEFORE then?

Boggles the mind ...

Nothing? No one knows, but there's plenty of theories. Unknown and cannot know is perfectly acceptable to me, requires no faith either.

Quote: MrV

So, what was around BEFORE then?

We don't know for sure. We may never know for sure, either.

But as I like to say "Ignorance is only a lack of knowledge, not permission to fill in the blanks with whatever you want."

Quote: MrV

Theory says that the universe was created 13.75 billion years ago, which is fine.

So, what was around BEFORE then?

Boggles the mind ...

The answer is: I don't know.

And that's a perfectly fine answer.

If you want to speculate, then your question requires some clarification such as, what does "before" mean? Time is a measure of change. All change is measured by stuff made in the big bang. So is there even a "before"?

Quote: ikilledjerrylogan

Does it take any less faith to believe that in the beginning there was nothing and then it exploded (banged)?

The Big Bang Theory is just that - a theory. And logically it makes more sense than all of this magical religious talk. The thing is we can't know anything. Theories are theories because there is no way to actually prove them. But if I am to choose to believe in a world that was created in a bang versus one that was created by a god floating in the sky my wonderful and intelligent logical mind is going to choose the former.

Quote: FrGamble

One of my favorite sayings is, "The truth will out." It has proven itself over and over again. IMO it proves itself again in the case of Christianity.

So... if all this religious stuff is true then why has it not been proven as true?

Quote: zippyboy

I appreciate your being here Father, to give the opposing side, but....um, what's the name of this thread again?

I literally just laughed out loud reading this.

Quote: zippyboy

My belief is that Jesus (IF he existed at all) was a human carpenter who preached loving thy neighbor...

I have to say that I've found that when I think of Jesus and who he was I often don't even know if I believe that he existed in the first place. I thought I was the only one to think this.

Quote: zippyboy

...only stories told around a bonfire like the Native Indians here in America.

That's the thing... what religious followers don't seem to get is that these are all just stories no different than folklore, mythology, etc. The point is that these are all stories which could be entertaining but people believe this stuff to be actually true.

Quote: zippyboy

I personally like how Moses himself is supposed to have written the Old Testament, making himself the hero, kinda like some bloggers do today, except Moses' stories have proven to have staying power. The uneducated people of the day probably couldn't question what he wrote since they couldn't read. Children believed it like they do Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, but after getting older, they realize it's ridiculous and physically impossible. Every schoolkid should know by now it's impossible to rain everywhere in the world at the same time, especially enough to flood the planet up to the top of Everest. Or that a man can shake a staff and cause an entire sea to part for long enough to lead an army of Israelites to Canaan. Makes a good story though. Way to go, Moses!

But Christians have an excuse for everything, don't they? I appreciate their attempts at trying to do whatever it takes to cling to their religion, but at some point don't you think the truth would sink in? Spending your whole life defending your beliefs can be tiring.

Quote: zippyboy

My opinion is that with ALL the religions and beliefs of the world...if you guys can't get together and agree on things, they ALL lose credibility.

It is funny how people subscribed to their particular religion think theirs is the only truth.

Quote: zippyboy

I remind you that this is just a post in the "rag on religion" thread. You can console yourself that I'll probably burn in hell for this.

Again I am tickled with your humor. How have I not noticed your wit before? I'm loving reading your stuff. Did you say you were married? :)

Quote: MrV

Theory says that the universe was created 13.75 billion years ago, which is fine.

So, what was around BEFORE then?

Boggles the mind ...

All of life is mind-boggling. But I honestly think it is outside our realm as human beings to ever be able to actually understand what the hell is really going on. I appreciate that we as humans try to figure it all out but I do not believe that we ever can. A book I would like to pick up and start reading again (I only got maybe 1/6 of the way through) is WHAT THE BLEEP DO WE KNOW? I think the book came out after the documentary, but it'll just spin your mind. And although it's pretty out there it's actually not a hard read (with an open mind) and is not just print on paper but all the pages are colored with tons and tons of graphics. Fun stuff.

Quote: s2dbaker

The answer is: I don't know.

And that's a perfectly fine answer.

If you want to speculate, then your question requires some clarification such as, what does "before" mean? Time is a measure of change. All change is measured by stuff made in the big bang. So is there even a "before"?

You make a good point as humans created time and time doesn't actually exist.

As I've mentioned many times before I love reading Byron Katie. I just finished the 3rd of her books and I've taken away so much from what she says. Life is simple. I sit here and I breathe. The thing is I'm not breathing, my body is breathing itself. All the internal functions of my body do their thing without me getting in the way. I sit and can be in this moment and realize that any thoughts, words, stories, etc. are all make believe. They float through my mind but they are invisible and don't even really exist. All we have is this moment. Everything else is just commentary.