Life after death
Quote: s2dbakerWhen properly understood, that was a whole big pile of rationalization. Dude, you'd be wearing a chair with a helmet if Jesus had been electrocuted. Sick and perverted!
I really like the element in Planet of the Apes, where the (remaining) humans after the global nuclear war worship and practise the religion of the "holy atomic bomb".
I just checked. I don't actually have any fork jewelry.Quote: FrGambleHey at least I don't wear a fork around my neck to honor a flying spaghetti monster.
Bill Hicks
"If Jesus had been killed twenty years ago, Catholic school children would be wearing little electric chairs around their necks
instead of crosses".
Lenny Bruce
of churches. This isn't frightening? This
wasn't intended to frighten the crap out
of uneducated and illiterate people?
Quote: s2dbakerI just checked. I don't actually have any fork jewelry.
Oh my bad, I thought we were criticizing each other for made up and hypothetical jewelry we had.
Quote: FrGambleI don't know why one would call Judaism a sophisticated religion.
Sophisticated:
Complex or intricate; refined or cultured; wise.
You don't think that describes Judaism? You don't
think Jesus was a sophisticated Jew? Would you
ever describe Jesus as crude, vulgar or lower
class? I don't think so. When you read what Jesus
said, do you ever think 'What a bumpkin.' No,
he was sophisticated. Even 2000 years later, his
sophistication would serve him well in modern
society. He knew what to say and when to say it.
Quote: EvenBobSophisticated:
Complex or intricate; refined or cultured; wise.
You don't think that describes Judaism? You don't
think Jesus was a sophisticated Jew? Would you
ever describe Jesus as crude, vulgar or lower
class? I don't think so. When you read what Jesus
said, do you ever think 'What a bumpkin.' No,
he was sophisticated. Even 2000 years later, his
sophistication would serve him well in modern
society. He knew what to say and when to say it.
Bob I know you don't like being called a troll but one of the characteristics of a troll is to say ridiculous things to get a rise out of people and then when confronted or called out on it you change your statements so you become like trying to nail jello to the wall. You are making a mess of this thread.
Now all the sudden your use of sophisticated is not pejorative but positive?!? While I am grateful for your change of heart, I am puzzled. I think you already know I would certainly never call the great religion of Judaism crude or my Savior Jesus a bumpkin. I would like you to re-read your original post again:
Quote: EvenBobEver notice primitive cultures never worry about
what happens after death, they accept it as a part
of life. Its only as people get sophisticated and away
from their roots that they start to worry about it.
Judaism is a sophisticated religion from a sophistcated
society. It gave birth to Christianity and later, Islam.
Its a lot of sturm and drang and politics and hand wringing.
Mormonism is another offshoot.
I'd rather trust primitive societies where the ridiculous
concept of sin doesn't exist. I pity the padre, he has
an antiquated product he's selling to a modern world.
Along with other strange statements you have yet to justify, you use sophisticated here to mean full of politics and hand wringing - a very different definition than your new one. You also close your new post by saying Jesus would do well in modern society and yet you ended the other post by saying you pity me for promoting a person too antiquated for the modern world. I don't mean to be harsh Bob, but I am confused, frustrated, and a little upset. Peace.
Quote: FrGamble
Along with other strange statements you have yet to justify, you use sophisticated here to mean full of politics and hand wringing -
And so it is. A sophisticated person learns all the
tricks of the trade. Being sophisticated doesn't mean
you're a saint. It means you're a person wise to the
ways of the world, and that also means getting what
you want. Which can include politics and hand wringing.
You don't think Jesus was wise and sophisticated enough
to get along in even the higher ranges of our modern
society? You don't think the Rabbi's he dealt with in his time
were wise to the policics of the era, as was Jesus? Didn't
they try and trick Jesus with their sophistcated know it
all attitudes, and he outsmarted them?
Quote: FrGambleyou pity me for promoting a person too antiquated for the modern world.
Its not so much that Jesus is antiquated, the religion
is antiquated. I have no doubt Jesus could hold his
own on other subjects, he'd have a hard time explaining
Christianity. He'd have to get real cryptic, like most
mystics do. Shroud it in mystery.
Quote: WongBoModern American Christianity bears little resemblance to the teachings of Jesus.
Correct. Thats why I said he'd have a very hard
time explaining the religion he supposedly started.
Ever read the Book of Thomas?
Quote: WongBoModern American Christianity bears little resemblance to the teachings of Jesus.
Amen! brother.
He said some very good things, nobody can deny
that. But was he savior of the world, born of a
virgin, the only hope of mankind? Highly doubtful.
Quote: WongBoModern American Christianity bears little resemblance to the teachings of Jesus.
You're right, that is why Jesus Himself founded Roman Catholicism.
(oops, I meant Peter... not Paul... ah well)
Quote: WongBoCatholicism...inquisition, nazi sympathizing, homosexual pedophilia...Christlike? Not!
The list is almost endless. Celibate priests and nuns? Putting
Jesus on a little cross and hanging it around your neck?
Schooling only the priests and clergy and purposely keeping
the public illiterate? Squashing scientific thought?
In the hall of fame of victimizers the catholic church is right up there near or at the top.
Quote: WongBoCatholicism...inquisition, cultural genocide, nazi sympathizing, homosexual pedophilia...Christlike? Not!
None of those things are Christlike. Men are not Christ... I imagine Fr Gamble covered that in his homily this week as did our priest. FWIW the athiest communists executed and starved millions of their people in the soviet union, Cambodia as did the Romans when conquering lands. Talking shit about the church for actions hundreds of years old holds no water. The pedophile issue was/is shameful and the priests involved should be jailed in criminal court PERIOD.... Cover Ups and turning a blind eye should result in conspiracy charges for the higher ranks directly involved IMO. Most of the time unfortunately the victims take money and don't force the issue further in the criminal court.
I dont know what address you write god at if any at all but I sure dont recall seeing the "Atheist Relief Services" raising money or more importantly getting their hands dirty after the earthquake in HATI or running orphanages and hospitals for the poor in 3rd world countries. I know exactly how much $$ and service hours our church gave towards missions in Africa, Latin America as well as soup kitchens in Downtown Chicago. We fund a group of battered women's shelters (any race,denomination are welcome) but you and EBOB probably think that's a big waste too. I am curious what either of you CHUMPS did in the last week, month or year to help improve the condition of your community or the world in general?
Quote: FrGambleOne of the things that makes Catholicism so Christlike is the persecution against it and the lies told about it.
Yes, lets all pity the poor little weak Catholic
church. It tries to manipulate the truth at
every turn for the last 1000 years and now
has to tolerate naysayers. The problem is,
padre, the Chuch are the original creators
of the KoolAid, and to remain in good standing,
you have to drink from that spigot on a regular
basis. I understand completely and I don't hold
it against you. But neither do I condone it.
Quote: Scotty71Talking shit about the church for actions hundreds of years old holds no water.
Oh yes it does! And here's why. The Church did
nothing to clean up its act, its was always forced
to by outside pressure. Conversion by force? That
would still be going on today if it wasn't illegal.
The various Inquisitions? The church only stopped,
after a very long time, because it was no longer
politically in their best interests to continue. The
Church has never been accused of being at the
forefront of modern change, no matter what era
it was. Quite the opposite.
bringing up atrocities committed by regimes with no religious affiliation
is one of the weakest arguments I have ever heard.
Do you not get that the church did this while claiming to represent the ideals of Christ
and holding themselves up as a moral authority.
It is almost too ridiculous to believe that anyone could use this argument.
As far as orphanages go, why are there nearly universal stories of them
being used as sexual harems by the priests who ran them?
As far as missions in Africa and South America,
why in the face of AIDS is misinformation about condom use promoted as fact by the church?
How can their doctrine trump the very lives of the populace?
And Scotty, you don't know me or what I do, so if you want to call me a chump, in violation of the forum rules,
That's fine. But don't presume that just because
I am revolted by religious buffoonery and hypocrisy that I don't care about humanity.
I do more in my personal time for others in a week than most so called Christians do in a year.
Quote: Scotty71FWIW the athiest communists executed and starved millions of their people in the soviet union,
FYI, the Communists and the Nazis are not atheists. The Communists may deny god formally, but they function through faith in the state instead, complete with theology, and following the same earthly ends as most religions. The Nazis don't even deny god.
Quote:[..]as did the Romans when conquering lands.
Before and after the Empire adopted Christianity.
Quote:I am curious what either of you CHUMPS did in the last week, month or year to help improve the condition of your community or the world in general?
Mind the personal insult (I know they're not directed at me, but with the hypersensitive powers that be here you never know).
Anyway, I don't consider it in any way my obligation to improve anyone else, much less the world. But I do engage in such actions. his week I've argued against religion and for Laissez-Faire Capitalism.
Quote: EvenBobOh yes it does! And here's why. The Church did
nothing to clean up its act, its was always forced
to by outside pressure.
I know you think I am drunk on the kool-aid but this is just not true. We can actually look at the Second Vatican council as the most recent example of change motivated solely by the Holy Spirit working inside the Church.
Quote:Conversion by force? That
would still be going on today if it wasn't illegal.
Again pure hogwash, the Church has always preached against conversion by force. See Pope Benedict's recent comments at Regensburg to get a fuller picture.
Quote:The various Inquisitions? The church only stopped,
after a very long time, because it was no longer
politically in their best interests to continue.
We have already many times discussed how different our views on the inquisition period is. One of the big differences is that my view is supported by facts not myths and my view is shared by modern historical research.
Quote:The Church has never been accused of being at the
forefront of modern change, no matter what era
it was. Quite the opposite.
We can look at science, philosophy, architecture, or art to name a few where we see that the Church has often been on the forefront and cutting edge of modern change and development in these important areas.
Quote: NareedFYI, the Communists and the Nazis are not atheists. The Communists may deny god formally, but they function through faith in the state instead, complete with theology, and following the same earthly ends as most religions. The Nazis don't even deny god.
I wonder why this argument doesn't get WongBo upset. Isn't this like saying those who did such atrocious acts in the history of the Church really aren't Christians. Those awful priests may accept God formally, but they function through sick selfishness and atheistic based morality instead, complete with double lives.
Quote: WongBo
Do you not get that the church did this while claiming to represent the ideals of Christ
and holding themselves up as a moral authority.
You do understand that "the Church" did not do this or that horrible thing, human beings claiming to represent the Church did. In doing any of these awful and sinful things certain people went against the moral teachings of the Church. The problem is not the Church it is that people don't follow the moral authority of the Church.
Especially given the fact that in the case of the pedophiles, the monsignors, bishops and cardinals
played a huge role in shuffling the guilty into new locations rather than just calling the cops.
The church has officially sanctioned the teachings of the priests in Africa who spread misinformation about condoms.
Loathsome and reprehensible behavior is not only tolerated, it is coddled, encouraged, and widespread.
Quote: FrGambleYou do understand that "the Church" did not do this or that horrible thing, human beings claiming to represent the Church did. In doing any of these awful and sinful things certain people went against the moral teachings of the Church. The problem is not the Church it is that people don't follow the moral authority of the Church.
On, that's a good one... the people in the Church aren't people in the Church if the Church decides they aren't? The Church's moral authority has been hugely suspect in the paedophile priest scandals. It's been a whitewashed and hidden by multiple people in the Church... so we can therefore say NONE of those involved are actually in the Church? Their moral authority is suspect, so any confession, marriage, baptism or advice these people gave was not actually in the Church's name?
That's a nice bit of gymanastics, which I realize you have to do to keep the Church Infallible... but really only the Holy Trinity is infallible, man is fallible, and it's organizations are fallible, whether that be IBM or the Roman Catholic Church. It's the sort of Hubris that made many priests think they were infallible that led to abuses the Church has been guilty of.
Men sin, and men can ask forgiveness through the blood of Christ. Thus organizations will sin and should ask forgiveness too...
Quote: FrGambleWe can actually look at the Second Vatican council as the most recent example of change
Oh no, you want to go alllllll the way back to
1960's? How brave of you. Yes, lets start the
history of the Church at Vatican II, no need
to go back any farther.
Good grief.
Quote: thecesspitIt's the sort of Hubris that made many priests think they were infallible that led to abuses the Church has been guilty of.
..
And it still continues across the planet with
the pedophile priests. Pedophiles feel justified
in what they do anyway, pedophile preists
doubly so. Thats why the church never prosecuted
them, just moved them to a new hunting ground.
Quote: thecesspitMen sin, and men can ask forgiveness through the blood of Christ. Thus organizations will sin and should ask forgiveness too...
I agree and the Pope on behalf of the Church has done this many times. I don't think it should come as a surprise that people in the Church, including bishops and priests sin. Remember all have fallen short of the Glory of God. It reminds me of that old joke: If you find a perfect Church don't join it because it won't be perfect anymore. You can still be a member of the Church and have committed grave sin, in fact some of the greatest saints were great sinners before their conversion. The Church even dealt with an old heresy back in the day asking the same question you did about the validity of the sacraments of priests who have committed mortal sin. The answer came that God can work even through broken instruments and we did not have to re-marry or re-baptize everybody as long as the rites were performed in the correct manner, no matter how sick the individual celebrating was.
Also we should be clear that it is the teaching of the Church guaranteed by Christ's promise and the Holy Spirit that is infallible not the individual members of the Church, including the Pope. I will reiterate the fact that the problem is not with the Church's moral teaching but the weakness and unwillingness of mankind to follow that teaching.
Quote: WongBoTrying to negate the officially sanctioned activities of the catholic chuch by
bringing up atrocities committed by regimes with no religious affiliation
is one of the weakest arguments I have ever heard.
Do you not get that the church did this while claiming to represent the ideals of Christ
and holding themselves up as a moral authority.
It is almost too ridiculous to believe that anyone could use this argument.
As far as orphanages go, why are there nearly universal stories of them
being used as sexual harems by the priests who ran them?
As far as missions in Africa and South America,
why in the face of AIDS is misinformation about condom use promoted as fact by the church?
How can their doctrine trump the very lives of the populace?
And Scotty, you don't know me or what I do, so if you want to call me a chump, in violation of the forum rules,
That's fine. But don't presume that just because
I am revolted by religious buffoonery and hypocrisy that I don't care about humanity.
I do more in my personal time for others in a week than most so called Christians do in a year.
I'll take the ban, I meant CHUMP from the standpoint of lots of talking and no action which is usually what you get from the whiners. When I see wrong I take personal action- I question and I challenge my church.
I also understand everyone is fallible and corruptible. I really don't feel guilty about empire building that took place over the last thousand years... church and state were one. I support orphanages because the world needs orphanages and any pedophilia is inexcusable as I stated before and should be dealt with quickly and with the severest consequence. If I left the church in disgust I could not use my voice and money to influence the actions of the church. The church is a church of its members and we have to improve every day. The church doesn't condone premarital sex but does teach natural family planning....I dont really get it either and got clipped after 3 kids... but a mission that educates , feeds and cares for the poor to the best of its abilities is doing much more good than harm. The church is limited by the expertise of its clergy.... starvation, cholera and malaria may have been seen more as more preventable/curable issues than AIDS. Many Catholic groups stand in protest of the AIDS/HIV decision and were very vocal about it. The church doesn't want to be in the condom distribution business and any other group is welcome top come to the same areas and educate and distribute condoms. I hope the church changes the HIV position on this but I understand why they don't feel compelled to encourage intercourse outside of marriage. It is a very big battleship to turn and I expect it will never live up to your expectations.
Your contempt leads me to believe that you think their faults negate all of the good that is being done. The world is run by people who show up and I am proud to say we show up, faults and all. If we waited for every opinion to be heard or fear to be resolved nothing would ever get started or done.
You are right I don't know a thing about you other than the comments you have made on this forum. I would love to hear about your service projects and volunteer work. Maybe some of us could glean some good ideas or learn about important causes on how you think we should best solve them.
Any mention of religion in the WoV forums will innevitably unleash a vicious flame war about the sins of organized religion. Lather, rinse and repeat. Or block the thread.
I would say it is closer to nearly all of them.
Or are you saying that scientists have an agenda?
Frankly, I've broken people's choices about life after death into four possibilities. Take your pick.
1. Like most Western religions, we can decide that we go to another plane of existence - heaven, hell, purgatory, Valhalla, our own private Idaho, I don't care.
2. Like most Eastern religions, we can decide that we come back in another body. Reincarnation as another person, a cow, a blade of grass, again, I don't care.
3. Like most skeptics, we can decide that this is all there is and we go into eternal oblivion. Kind of hard to picture.
4. Or like almost no one, we can just simply accept that we don't know the answer and get on with it, leaving it to whatever higher power is out there. This, of course, is next to impossible for a curious species such as our own.
Quote: hwccdealer3. Like most skeptics, we can decide that this is all there is and we go into eternal oblivion. Kind of hard to picture.
I'm not sure why #3 should be hard to picture. Your consciousness has already endured billions of years of oblivion before you were born. How'd that feel? The billions of years of oblivion after you're dead should be quite similar.
Quote: PapaChubbyI'm not sure why #3 should be hard to picture. Your consciousness has already endured billions of years of oblivion before you were born. How'd that feel? The billions of years of oblivion after you're dead should be quite similar.
And then what?
Do you remember anything from your current consciousness?
Probably not - and if not, then how do you know this is the first time "you" have had consciousness?
Remember, "forever" is a long, long, long, longlonglong, long, long, did I mention "long", long time.
Quote: PapaChubbyI'm not sure why #3 should be hard to picture. Your consciousness has already endured billions of years of oblivion before you were born. How'd that feel? The billions of years of oblivion after you're dead should be quite similar.
Maybe it did, maybe it didn't; I don't know. The idea of a before-life is every bit as possible as the afterlife. We just don't think about it because it's before us, we can't get it back, it doesn't affect where we're going.
I could describe eternal oblivion as like an eternity under anesthesia; the problem with that is this - when you're under anesthesia, that time is pretty much instantaneous as far as your mind is concerned. Nothing happens. So eternity of that is kind of, for lack of a better term, messed up.
Quote: hwccdealer- when you're under anesthesia, that time is pretty much instantaneous as far as your mind is concerned.
Good description. It's as if you're gone, and then you're back. Not just from sleep but consciousness itself. It's kind of weird actually.
Unless of course, you're one of the unfortunate few to experience wakefulness during surgery. Horrors.
Quote: DeMangoPeople having near death expieriences usually become Christians. Kinda like no atheists in foxholes! There sure is a lot in these expieriences that scientists can't explain.
This is getting out of my area, but I think the scientists could offer an explanation. Just before death, the brain releases a flood of dopamine. Between that and the effects of a dying brain vivid hallucinations are possible. If the hallucination were of an after life, I imagine the person who had it would make the best use of his "second chance" to improve his standing in the perceived afterlife when he really goes.
I hope FrankScoblete finds this thread. Based on his "Virgin Kiss" book, I think he may have something profound to add on the topic.
Quote: FrGambleIt is also simple minded and childish to believe only what you are told. Who told you there is no God or do you have physical proof there is no God?
By the way can we get back on track? This thread is about life after death and some interesting testimony from a skeptic turned believer through a personal experience. I can't tell you how many times so far in my short priesthood I have encountered amazing things that have happened to people at the moment of death. It is very real in my book.
I don't have proof that there is not a magical pile of gold that disappears whenever I enter the room but I am pretty sure I don't need to prove that negative...do I?
