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JuniorWiz
JuniorWiz
Joined: Jul 15, 2011
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November 9th, 2012 at 7:09:54 AM permalink
Quote: thlf

I worked at shufflemaster for several years. The shufflers are not nor can they be rigged. I had all of the internal passwords to set up the software, firmware, etc. and there is nothing there that can be altered to gain advantage either way. They are exactly as u see them.



Then that would be a machine that makes anything but a random shuffle that clumps the highs and lows together and screws up the AP.
Buzzard
Buzzard
Joined: Oct 28, 2012
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November 9th, 2012 at 8:30:36 AM permalink
I am just amazed at the mind control abilities of CSM's. I mean they know when I am going to take a card at third base or not. Every, and I mean every time, I decide not to take a dealers bust card, it is a little card.

If I take the card, I bust. I think the government
should investigate the casino's mind control instead of beaming those " Vote Democraic" infer red rays into my house.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
FarFromVegas
FarFromVegas
Joined: Dec 10, 2010
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November 9th, 2012 at 8:39:52 AM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

I am just amazed at the mind control abilities of CSM's. I mean they know when I am going to take a card at third base or not. Every, and I mean every time, I decide not to take a dealers bust card, it is a little card.

If I take the card, I bust. I think the government
should investigate the casino's mind control instead of beaming those " Vote Democraic" infer red rays into my house.



Dammit, Buzz! You weren't supposed to talk about the vast left-wing conspiracy! Now we have to kill you.
Each of us is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts. Preparing for a fight about your bad decision is not as smart as making a good decision.
Buzzard
Buzzard
Joined: Oct 28, 2012
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November 9th, 2012 at 8:53:57 AM permalink
Ha-Ha i am wearing my triangular shape aluminum hat, so the death rays can not hurt me.

Seriously, while working at AT&T, besides fixing telecom troubles, I would also help the clerks with troubled customers

And I do mean troubled. People concerned with the FBI tapping their phones, or neighbors hearing their conversations over the
phone while it was on the hook etc.

And the Indians who complained we were blocking circuits to India on weekends to make them call at higher rates during the week.
Their proof, the recordings were from USA and not India. Maybe 1 in 10 understood when I explained with out of band signalling, we did not have to tie up a trunk to give him a busy signal from India. But the other 9 were still adamant.

Gee, I had fun. And as a shop steward, I could always tweak management from time to time. And I got paid too. LOL
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Ahigh
Ahigh
Joined: May 19, 2010
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November 9th, 2012 at 9:33:05 AM permalink
Here's a good talk on this subject of exploiting shufflers such as ShuffleMaster's.

In this talk, Persi Diaconis from Stanford talks about ShuffleMaster hiring him to find out if the shuffler was exploitable. I believe they did make changes based on his expertise .. I recommend start listening at 8 minutes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAxEzxHkqyY
BigJer
BigJer
Joined: Sep 16, 2012
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November 9th, 2012 at 10:58:56 AM permalink
Quote: FarFromVegas

Dammit, Buzz! You weren't supposed to talk about the vast left-wing conspiracy! Now we have to kill you.



NOOO! It's from the left and the right!! The Freemasons and Illuminati are in on it too!! AAAHHH!
The Terror of Casinos.
MonkeyMonkey
MonkeyMonkey
Joined: May 1, 2012
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November 9th, 2012 at 3:03:43 PM permalink
Quote: JuniorWiz

Then that would be a machine that makes anything but a random shuffle that clumps the highs and lows together and screws up the AP.



onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
Joined: Jan 26, 2012
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February 2nd, 2013 at 2:41:18 AM permalink
Pretty sure Bally has a patent to mark locations of cards to catch a rich shoe and not deal it.
Looks like sh!t just got imaginary!
lacasinoman
lacasinoman
Joined: Jul 13, 2013
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July 13th, 2013 at 4:07:18 PM permalink
Well let's look at what can be done here with some logic and throw all superstition out. I have read from one article on the net something that did make a lot of sense.(which I won't post here because I don't know the rules of this forum.)

In life, the only thing that is truly random is in nature. A dealer shuffling cards by hand is truly random. BUT there isn't a computer designed that has a truly random number, they are just overly complicated algorithms. I've been writing software and administering servers for over twenty years, so I know this to be true.

The notion that for a blackjack game to be rigged by the order of the cards is not as ridiculous as someone might think. And I'll explain why:

Anyone that has played long enough in the game of blackjack knows certain things need to happen in order to gain even a slight edge. First thing you need is a decent spread every once in a while. This is where an experienced player takes advantage knowing where the higher valued cards are more likely to be by keeping track of a deck. And for the non experienced, this is where they usually win or lose and don't know why. Now with that said, a machine could very easily make sure that the cards are spread so that the count never gets very high or low either way. This would in also eliminate a card counter by creating a more predictable back and fourth shoe. It wouldn't matter who takes a hit or how the deck is cut, the cards will still be more evenly distributed, But considering the High Low and neutral cards, the deck would not be predictable to any advantage other than being able to predict that it is going to be a bad shoe. So there, no matter who takes a hit, the card count will never change.

Now secondly, what most people never seem to add into the mix is that the dealer always goes last, thus giving the edge to the house. Even if the dealer busts, as long as the player busted also, the dealer wins. So the fact is, the dealer is the only player on the table that can bust and still win because he immediately took all the players money that busted before him. So to create a shoe where everyone will likely get stiff hands including the dealer is a huge plus for the house. So the fact is, the cards don't have to be stacked in the dealers favor for the shoe to be bad for the players. The house doesn't care how many times a dealer gets a bad hand, as long as the players get them also. You will never know that hole card until all players have made thier play, and if you busted, it doesn't matter if the dealer busted, you still lose.

If you notice, the casinos that are the hardest to beat are the ones that makes sure the tables are full all the time, even if they have to close as many tables as possible to make that happen they will. The theory in this is that the more people playing then more hands are in play for the house which means the more money. But with an auto shuffler, this would make sure that if cards of similar values (highs and lows) are grouped tighter together, then they would produce more stiff hands across the table. Remember, it doesn't matter if the dealer gets a bad hand as long as the players get them also, it's still in his advantage. with a full table it is easier to create bad hands by clumping more cards together, and I'm not talking just highs and lows, add the neutrals in the mix. And you think well, that means I have an idea of what card I might get? No, you don't, that's the beauty of it.

Way back before the computers, Ken Uston,(probably the most brilliant person to ever play the game) noticed a pattern at the MGM casino and went to his room to duplicate and found that a shoe that had not been washed before dealing gave a similar pattern and realized because of the house edge(dealer going last) that it was devastating to the player. The highs and lows weren't mixed and in a full deal created a bunch of stiff hands. If Ken only knew that computers could do this in the future!

Now lets look at the technology: The shufflemaster, in it's patents speaks of language like "any predetermined order" and some even put the cards back in order when the table is done. That doesn't sound to me like it can't do what is described above. And also why a RNG(random number generator) or optical card recognition if it supposedly uses a haphazzard mechanism?... because simply put, it doesn't. And remember, the technology knows how many people are sitting at the table because of the built in smarts on the table itself. This is how they keep track of how many people are playing and at what spots. And last, they claim the machines are only better for the casino because there is no downtime for shuffling. While this IS true, if the rest is also true then they are getting a double advantage.

So lets see what happens if a new shoe comes out, is cut and then 5 of the six people get up and leave only one to play. Again it doesn't matter, because you're at no advantage to the dealer with a pretty even count all the way through.

Now, last. All I ever hear is that casinos make way too much money and would never risk trying to gain an extra edge. This is far from from the truth. In Louisiana at just one casino earlier this year, over 40 people lost their jobs just on the floor alone. The economy, weather, competition and a zillion other factors can effect a casino just like any other business. Something has to pay for all those fancy lights, marble walls, free drinks, free rooms, etc. With that said, technology such as slots and video poker(machines in general) are the casinos bread and butter because they are programmed to make sure the take is consistent for the house. Table games have always been unpredictable for casinos. Although simply because of the odds, they will come out ahead, there are times when a table can simply lose money in a bad night. This is the only spot where they can essentially take a hit. And not because of cheating or advantage players, etc. They just didn't beat the odds that were ironically on thier side. In the southern states such as MS and LA, the public profit reports shows months where the income wasn't nearly as good as expected, which in turn cost profits, jobs and tax revenue.

So No they wouldn't cheat, because they have too much too lose, but they will execute any legal means whatsoever to gain an edge. And if this means using a machine that could possibly shuffle cards that are more consistent for the casino, then yes they would definitely do so. I personally, feel that these machines should not be legal simply because I feel they are misleading people into thinking it's the same as a dealer shuffle, when in fact they are not. (Humans don't use RNGs). But who are you going to tell that to? the gaming commission? In reality, they're just another tax collector. But still, I would voice concern to them regardless.

My solution is for everyone to just refuse to play anything but a hand shuffled shoe. Even if it means going elsewhere to play. That way, we all know what we are presented with.
wroberson
wroberson
Joined: May 11, 2011
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July 24th, 2013 at 11:44:34 AM permalink
I don't trust shuffle machines for blackjack. I like them for mississippi stud, carribean stud, but not for blackjack. The reason is that I've played the hand dealt studs and didn't get one pair dealt to me. But with the machine dealt cards, I've hit winning hands more often.

By definition the shuffle master is a rig so the game is rigged with a device designed for a specific purpose. When I do stroll around the local casinos, 90% of the time I walk past the machine dealt blackjack to see all the players having pat hands and lose. Alot of the time the dealer has a blackjack.

Every pit, every game has a computer nearby. With player's being ID by a number and FR software and even RFID chips, Anything attached to a machine is sketchy. The machines can be programmed to deal 58 different games. This can include being programmed for a stand on soft 17 or hit soft 17. Then there is this thing called "plausible deniability".
Buffering...

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