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3102yuma
3102yuma
Joined: May 11, 2011
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May 11th, 2011 at 8:30:39 PM permalink
I have made my last trip to Winstar Casino in Thackerville in Oklahoma. I have played blackjack for 30 years all over the country, but never at the Indian Casinos. I have won and lost, and admit to being somewhat of a sore loser. I have come to the conclusion you simply cannot win there. When I sit at a table, eventually everybody ends up disgusted from losing over and over and leave. It seems like know one wins. I wander if there are any former pit bosses from Vegas that work there and through their years of experience can see that something is just not right. It is uncanny how many blackjacks, aces up in a row that the dealers get. They crack me up when they put on what seems to be an act that they are so suprised by all their blackjacks, standing 20's, and hitting and not busting. I wish I had kept statistics on the percentage of hands I win. What I am sure of is that I can play 75-150 hands and maybe win three hands in a row during that stretch of playing. I can play 50 hands and never see a two-card 20 until the dealer has the samething. It does not matter if I am playing at a table with six decks or tables where they re-shuffle once they get through about two decks.

I cannnot go there and even play a leisurely game at the $5.00 minimum table. We just seem to lose and lose and lose. I want to repeat that I am a very experienced player, aware of bad streaks and the possibility of losing 10,15 or more hands in a row. But this is rediculous. I wrote the gaming commission, but I am already aware of the setup in Oklahoma and know it will fall upon deaf ears.

Could the machines be set up where once 'card-rich' hands that lean towards the house began to be shuffled into the machines in away that really increase the houses chance of winning. I play almost 99% by the mathmatics of the game.

i truly believe that one day it will be proven that somehow those shuffling machines are rigged.

Not one more .50 cent ante from me. I am done.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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May 12th, 2011 at 4:38:44 AM permalink
Is it possible to rig the shuffler? Sure. Anything is "possible".

Would they? My knee-jerk answer is "no".

It's easy enough for a casino to implement rules to give themselves a higher house edge, that to risk bad publicity and possible loss of their gambling license on a rigged shuffler.

Then again, if it's an Indian casino, even if caught, would they lose their license? Possibly not, which may increase the odds that they actually did it.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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May 12th, 2011 at 4:51:28 AM permalink
the machine would have to be rigged so that it feeds the right cards to just the dealer. That is quite an ambitious cheat seems to me.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: 典hanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
WizardofEngland
WizardofEngland
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May 12th, 2011 at 4:56:33 AM permalink
It is so unlikely, it can not be possible.

First, the machines cost $1,000's to purchase, and you can never get the full spec on how they work. So even if you had your own technician, he would need to know exactly how the machine worked to be able to alter it. He could end up making a very expensive paperweight if he got it wrong.

Next, what logic do you give the shoe? Give all the players hard 17-20 and the dealer blackjack? Unlikely that sort of logic would work.

Also the shoe outputs clumps of cards, so there is always a card ready to be drawn, you would need to plan in advance for it work, how many players are playing, how many boxes are open, what if a player leaves, splits tens, or doubles down on a hard 15?

All these make it so remote, its not even worth doing. The time and investment spent does not outweigh the gain, on a game that already makes money.
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
thlf
thlf
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May 12th, 2011 at 7:00:28 AM permalink
I worked at shufflemaster for several years. The shufflers are not nor can they be rigged. I had all of the internal passwords to set up the software, firmware, etc. and there is nothing there that can be altered to gain advantage either way. They are exactly as u see them.
thecesspit
thecesspit
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May 12th, 2011 at 2:25:51 PM permalink
I'd worry less about a shifty shuffler and more about a shifty deck of cards being fed in. Hold out a few cards from the deck and you could improve the house's chances.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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May 12th, 2011 at 2:32:42 PM permalink
You mention a 50 cent ante. Do you realize you will never beat that! 70 hands = $35 an hour in ante fees. The best any counter can expect is 1.5% profit. That includes " George " the greatest counter per Ken Uston. You would have to bet over $2300 per hour, count perflecthy and be able to spread your bets from 1 to 8 just to break even.
Are you paying a 50 cent ante, playing $5 BJ and somehow expecting to win ? If you are stay away from that firewater LOL
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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May 12th, 2011 at 3:10:11 PM permalink
Quote: 3102yuma



Not one more .50 cent ante from me. I am done.



Help me out, forum. Is there a blackjack game where you have to pay a fee for the right to play the game? And people complain about 6:5?
In my wildest dreams I could not envision playing ONE hand where I had to pay an 'ante'. Yuma- it is possible you have had disproportionately bad hands, but if you are really paying an 'ante' you have NO CHANCE.
gofaster87
gofaster87
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May 12th, 2011 at 3:12:07 PM permalink
.....
Mosca
Mosca
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May 12th, 2011 at 4:46:11 PM permalink
As soon as a player took a goofy hit, the whole rest of the shoe would be off. If you think they're cheating, hit a 19, and then you'll get all the other guy's cards.
NO KILL I
3102yuma
3102yuma
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Thanks for this post from:
ChumpChange
May 12th, 2011 at 7:54:26 PM permalink
All of the responses have been incredible to my question. You are also spot on. I have asked myself what is the point of betting $5.00 on a hand if you are going to automatically put up 10% for the vic so to speak. I used to fly from Dallas to Bossier City out of Love Field on puddle jumpers for about $60 round trip. My style of play is failing me. I used to play at the one black chip minimum table and do a lot better. I would bring $5000, buy in for $1600. Once I would be ahead $1100 I was disiplined enough to quit the first hand I dipped below being ahead $1000. I had 22 winning sessions in a row following that stradegy. I bet the minimum of 1 black chip and a maximun of four black chips. The first time I surrendered all $5000 I quit making the trip.

Thanks
7outlineaway
7outlineaway
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May 12th, 2011 at 9:25:32 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

As soon as a player took a goofy hit, the whole rest of the shoe would be off. If you think they're cheating, hit a 19, and then you'll get all the other guy's cards.



Or just randomly sit a hand out. How would the shuffler figure out how many people are playing? I think it's far more likely they're using irregular decks.

If dealer and player hands are dealt from separate decks, as I believe they are in a few places (Pennsylvania?) the task becomes much easier.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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May 13th, 2011 at 11:09:01 AM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

I'd worry less about a shifty shuffler and more about a shifty deck of cards being fed in. Hold out a few cards from the deck and you could improve the house's chances.


Most new-generation shufflers have built-in deck-checking code. If the cards in the shoe aren't what they're supposed to be, the shuffler errors out and won't deal at all.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
thecesspit
thecesspit
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May 13th, 2011 at 11:45:29 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Most new-generation shufflers have built-in deck-checking code. If the cards in the shoe aren't what they're supposed to be, the shuffler errors out and won't deal at all.



So it knows there should be, say 6 9's of diamonds?

Coo....
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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May 13th, 2011 at 12:14:13 PM permalink
I think it's more of a simple number-of-cards thing.

Anybody who has played poker has seen a shuffler get a Red Light. Usually it's just a jammed / bent card. Not sure why it happens more with poker, except that the cards get more abuse by players.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
WizardofEngland
WizardofEngland
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May 13th, 2011 at 12:15:05 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

So it knows there should be, say 6 9's of diamonds?

Coo....



Yeah, it also knows exactly how many cards there are, if they are the same brand/size. So you couldn't switch in your own cards.

EDIT the new shoes can also 'count' and signal the pit when the count it favourable for the player, then they just look for high bettors.
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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Thanks for this post from:
ChumpChange
May 13th, 2011 at 12:55:23 PM permalink
Quote: WizardofEngland

EDIT the new shoes can also 'count' and signal the pit when the count it favourable for the player, then they just look for high bettors.

Those are electronic shoes. They do not know the sequence of the cards, but can read them as they are being dealt.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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May 13th, 2011 at 1:51:57 PM permalink
Quote: 7outlineaway



If dealer and player hands are dealt from separate decks, as I believe they are in a few places (Pennsylvania?) the task becomes much easier.



Another one I don't believe!! Separate decks of cards for the players and the dealer?? Can anyone verify this one?
Croupier
Croupier
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May 13th, 2011 at 9:54:16 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Another one I don't believe!! Separate decks of cards for the players and the dealer?? Can anyone verify this one?



the only time Ive heard of different decks is in relation to virtual BJ.
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Bluechip
Bluechip
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May 15th, 2011 at 6:30:20 PM permalink
Croupier is right -- the virtual BJ machines in Pennsylvania deal from separate shoes for each player and the dealer. The regular table games use 6-deck or 8-deck shoes or a CSM. I live in Pennsylvania and have checked into them for a newspaper column.
Croupier
Croupier
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May 15th, 2011 at 11:11:58 PM permalink
Quote: Bluechip

Croupier is right



Looks like there is a first time for everything :D
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DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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May 16th, 2011 at 7:06:25 AM permalink
Quote: Bluechip

Croupier is right -- the virtual BJ machines in Pennsylvania deal from separate shoes for each player and the dealer.

I don't think that's isolated to Pennsylvania.

I'm under the understanding that ShuffleMaster's TableMaster machines does that for ALL games that can use multiple decks, and in all jurisdictions.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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May 16th, 2011 at 8:59:05 AM permalink
A good deal of your post relates to what is a perception regarding the dealers actions and facial expressions. This is not evidence, the dealers are bored and often have fixed expressions in place.

I think you might want to rephrase the question as: Assuming that rigging the shoe is indeed going to work, how long would it take to rig it and how much additional money would be made for the time and effort the casino invested in that cheating.

Normally a casino has no need to cheat. Normally a casino manager is worried about losing a license if there is ongoing pervasive cheating.

In an Indian casino there is usually no fear about losing a license. Still there is no need for it to cheat, they just change the payout. With this mandated ante to play and a 6:5 payout, I sure don't see how you could really expect to win.

So on balance I'd say, its probably not rigged simply because its not worth their time and effort to do such a thing. Indian casinos are not noted for being cash cows for the players, they are noted for being cash cows for the tribes. I don't think anyone would play at an Indian casino if they happened to have an alternative that was close to them. Whether this one particular casino has a reputation or not, I don't know but your response should simply be to save up your money and go to Vegas where the exact same financial results may occur but you will not have the slightest worries about the fairness involved. It may not be a comfort to your wallet but it will be a comfort to your peace of mind.

Indian casinos often declare a slot machine jackpot to be a malfunction and the player has no recourse. If it happens in Vegas, you at least get an armed Gaming Officer and a right to a hearing. Thats the difference between a state being worried about its primary industry and a Tribe that has no worries about anything at all.
WizardofEngland
WizardofEngland
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May 16th, 2011 at 9:19:41 AM permalink
Forgive my ignorance, but why is the there no fear of losing a licence in an Indian casino?

I recently stayed at the Seminole Hard Rock in Florida, and noticed no difference between an indian casino and a traditional casino. I wasn't sure what to expect, but all was normal.
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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May 16th, 2011 at 9:56:22 AM permalink
Quote: WizardofEngland

Forgive my ignorance, but why is the there no fear of losing a licence in an Indian casino?

Every time I see a statement like that, I wonder the same thing.

I'm assuming that, unlike state licensed casinos, there is no outside authority available to oversee and/or settle dispites. There generally IS a self-appointed authority, but the feeling is, who do you think they will side with? And even if something is uncovered, who do you think they will report it to?

For the record, I don't believe any of it. I gotta believe that they have to answer to someone. Maybe not on the state level. Maybe on the federal level, but there's got to be some form of oversight.


Quote: WizardofEngland

I recently stayed at the Seminole Hard Rock in Florida, and noticed no difference between an indian casino and a traditional casino. I wasn't sure what to expect, but all was normal.

I think even if the allegations were true, to a casual observer, you'd never notice anything different - except that the decor may have an Indian theme.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
WizardofEngland
WizardofEngland
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May 16th, 2011 at 10:34:50 AM permalink
Not really an indian theme, just guitars and music related stuff everywhere. for some reason?
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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May 16th, 2011 at 11:01:53 AM permalink
Seminole may be Indian owned, and on soverign Indian land, but it's managed by, themed as, and named, Hard Rock.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
WizardofEngland
WizardofEngland
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May 16th, 2011 at 11:19:21 AM permalink
I believe the casino in question is just outside the indian land, but with the amount of money the seminole's have, they can pretty much buy ANYTHING. I believe they loaned the state of Florida $1BN in return for legalized blackjack. They say roulette there is a matter of time.
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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May 16th, 2011 at 11:51:07 AM permalink
Quote: WizardofEngland

Forgive my ignorance, but why is the there no fear of losing a licence in an Indian casino?

Some Indian tribes are mere concoctions by lawyers, some Indian tribes are more cults than tribes. The main thing is that usually the licensing authority is a rubber-stamp entity created by the tribe itself. Some Indian tribes have tremendous political clout and economic clout.

>I recently stayed at the Seminole Hard Rock in Florida, and noticed no difference between an indian casino and a traditional casino.
You didn't notice any craps or roulette, you didn't notice any significant Comps being awarded, you were in what was essentially a monopoly and therefore not required to be responsive to customers who have complaints.
WizardofEngland
WizardofEngland
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May 16th, 2011 at 12:35:52 PM permalink
I did get my whole bill comped for the stay though, meals, drink and mini bar, was circa $1,800. Not to shabby I think.
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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May 16th, 2011 at 1:02:10 PM permalink
Quote: WizardofEngland

I did get my whole bill comped for the stay though, meals, drink and mini bar, was circa $1,800. Not to shabby I think.

Was it comped by the casino? Or part of the prize package that came with the $10K buy-in?
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
WizardofEngland
WizardofEngland
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May 16th, 2011 at 1:18:14 PM permalink
the casino players club

EDIT I know whats coming next

I played the $10,000 ME
I played 2x $2,000 events
3x $550 events
4x $120 events
$1/$2 cash table for about 8 hours total
$25 blackjack most evenings for about 3 hours, sometimes 2 boxes, HS17. One pitboss was very generous on my rating when I quizzed him on the value of my play.
I made about $4,000 on poker
I was up on the blackjack by about $1,000 mostly due to a suited blackjack draw worth $750.
I lost about $800 on the slots
Girlfriend lost about $400 on the slots
The players club were aware of my status at the main event. I have no idea if this was a factor.
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
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May 16th, 2011 at 3:49:41 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

the machine would have to be rigged so that it feeds the right cards to just the dealer. That is quite an ambitious cheat seems to me.

As a computer programmer, I would say that it's not as hard as you might think. All I would need to know is how many players are sitting at the table.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
Face
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Face
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May 16th, 2011 at 5:37:29 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Indian casinos often declare a slot machine jackpot to be a malfunction and the player has no recourse. If it happens in Vegas, you at least get an armed Gaming Officer and a right to a hearing. Thats the difference between a state being worried about its primary industry and a Tribe that has no worries about anything at all.



Quote: FleaStiff

Some Indian tribes are mere concoctions by lawyers, some Indian tribes are more cults than tribes. The main thing is that usually the licensing authority is a rubber-stamp entity created by the tribe itself. Some Indian tribes have tremendous political clout and economic clout.



Is it really 'often'? Speaking for the Seneca's, I know a patron hit a multi-million dollar j/p the first day Seneca Allegany opened. After the tech's and IGT attended the machine, it was found that the reels had been installed backwards. The patron was informed as to what happened, congratualted, and paid in full. I assume they realized bad publicity costs more than a few million dollars.

As far as 'the licensing authority (being) a rubber-stamp entity created by the tribe itself', well, yes and no. I am employed as a member of such an authority, and while it's true that it was created by the tribe itself, we are in no way influenced by the tribe nor are we the sole overseers. We (the tribal side of regulation) work hand in hand with our NYS counterpart. Issues which are severe enough to require involvement of the Tribal Authority are equally participated in by a member of the State's Official. The idea that the Tribe, through use of the casino, could swindle the general public without being held accountable or being outright shut down is absurd, at least in this area. The State (and in some cases the Fed) has standards which must be met in order for us to operate. The tribe has taken it a step further, and many of the standards are set higher than required.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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May 16th, 2011 at 5:44:48 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

As a computer programmer, I would say that it's not as hard as you might think. All I would need to know is how many players are sitting at the table.

And how would you program the device to feed the cards to the dealer when one or two of those players at the table are nutcases who do really weird things or sharpie players who will indeed split two tens from time to time.
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
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May 16th, 2011 at 6:02:00 PM permalink
What if all you did was hold cards with 10 values until the dealer's position was being dealt? A higher than normal frequency of natural 20's should be enough to grind players to the felt quickly. The number of player spots bet could be fed into the shuffler automatically from a feed in the overhead security camera, or the dealer could enter the number of spots bet. Less sophisticated, the dealer could simply lean on a switch when it was time to get their cards, the machine would then spit out the 10 value card it was holding back.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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May 16th, 2011 at 6:51:31 PM permalink
Face -

Thanks for that 'voice of reason.'

Too bad it seems to be falling on deaf ears.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Maverick17
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May 16th, 2011 at 6:56:42 PM permalink
I am no fan of the auto shuffling machines. When the deck gets changed, they push a button and the cards come out in order, just like out of the deck. If a button can do that, why can it not shuffle more low value cards vs 10 value cards that make hands?

If the basic card counter looks for a shoe with lots of 10 value cards still in play, I would assume if the shoe consistently dealt 10%-20% more of the low value cards, then the house would get a bigger advantage, no?

I understand the theory of "Why would the casino risk it?" but the reality is the human nature of someone who's job is dependent on casino revenue may make him attempt to cheat. I have the same theory with any and all online gambling, sure they might not cheat, but why wouldn't they? They are committing or allowing others to commit illegal acts, so what would prevent them from doing something illegal, just like their customers are doing?
Statistics don't lie, they deceive.
Face
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Face
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May 16th, 2011 at 7:04:36 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Face -

Thanks for that 'voice of reason.'

Too bad it seems to be falling on deaf ears.



Thanks DJTeddy. I was kind of hoping for a rebuttal, not so much to fight, but I'm just curious if there actually IS a documented case of a Tribe having done whatever it wants without repercussion. Granted, I'm not saying any or all Tribes are the gold standard for anything, as corruption is found in all places and at all levels. It's just that the whole 'Indian casino's are corrupt' mantra is heard quite frequently, but I haven't really be shown an example. Sure, there's bound to be a complaint by a patron who didn't get what they want, that happens everywhere. But statements implying j/p's are not paid out 'just because the Tribe didn't want to and there's nothing you can do about it' seemed a stretch. I'd be interested to hear if it had happened.
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Ayecarumba
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May 17th, 2011 at 1:31:53 PM permalink
Quote: Face

I'd be interested to hear if it had happened.



Well, there's always the case of crooked bingo at Barona in California. I don't think, "Indian Gaming" has ever recovered from that black eye.
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DJTeddyBear
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May 17th, 2011 at 1:48:47 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

Well, there's always the case of crooked bingo at Barona in California. I don't think, "Indian Gaming" has ever recovered from that black eye.

There's nothing in that article that would lead anyone to believe that this occurred because it was Indian Gaming.

On the contrary, it's just a story about individual employees that were dishonest.

It's very similar to a story about Slots of Trouble at Empire City / Yonkers Raceway.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Nareed
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May 17th, 2011 at 1:53:34 PM permalink
In BJ a fixed deck, or a fixed shoe, requires that the cards be played a certain way. You'd need to be able to predict all the players' actions. This would be possible if you wanted to cheat the casino (assuming you can plant the fixed deck or shoe), because you can predict exactly what the dealer will do. Even then you'd need to pack the table with accomplices.

Fixing the deck would work for the casino in games like Pai Gow Poker and TCP. Possibly in Let it Ride and maybe in other poker variations. In short in any game where the players don't draw cards.
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Ayecarumba
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May 17th, 2011 at 2:28:17 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

In BJ a fixed deck, or a fixed shoe, requires that the cards be played a certain way. You'd need to be able to predict all the players' actions. This would be possible if you wanted to cheat the casino (assuming you can plant the fixed deck or shoe), because you can predict exactly what the dealer will do. Even then you'd need to pack the table with accomplices.

Fixing the deck would work for the casino in games like Pai Gow Poker and TCP. Possibly in Let it Ride and maybe in other poker variations. In short in any game where the players don't draw cards.



Like this story from the FBI's website about a ring of crooked dealers (who started in Indian Casinos with weak protection) working with accomplices to take advantage of pre-sorted sequences of cards in shoes. In this case the casinos were victims of crooked personnel, but isn't that always going to be the case. While I think the vast, vast majority of legal casinos in the U.S. have no need to cheat customers with underhanded gadgets, the lack of oversight noted when these stories do come out regarding crooked employees at Indian casinos doesn't fill me with confidence.
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MathExtremist
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May 17th, 2011 at 2:30:52 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

In BJ a fixed deck, or a fixed shoe, requires that the cards be played a certain way. You'd need to be able to predict all the players' actions. This would be possible if you wanted to cheat the casino (assuming you can plant the fixed deck or shoe), because you can predict exactly what the dealer will do. Even then you'd need to pack the table with accomplices.

Fixing the deck would work for the casino in games like Pai Gow Poker and TCP. Possibly in Let it Ride and maybe in other poker variations. In short in any game where the players don't draw cards.


Most commonly in baccarat. Deck-fixing in baccarat can be very dangerous, especially when done intelligently, i.e. with knowledge of how a specific baccarat tracking system works.
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gofaster87
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May 17th, 2011 at 3:45:58 PM permalink
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DJTeddyBear
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May 17th, 2011 at 4:14:21 PM permalink
Quote: gofaster87

Several years ago Chumash Casino in Santa Ynez was caught rigging machines and drawings. People did get fired over the events. Its in the LA paper archives. It hasn't hurt them a bit, you have to wait in line to get on a machine or table game.

Who was the beneficiary of the rigged machines? The casino, or the people that got fired?

I'll assume that it was the people. As such, it doesn't matter if the casino was an Indian casino or not.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
gofaster87
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May 17th, 2011 at 4:21:08 PM permalink
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buzzpaff
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May 17th, 2011 at 4:52:41 PM permalink
What most of theses geniuses overlook is that 3 people can keep a secret only if 2 of them are dead !
Face
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May 18th, 2011 at 12:20:19 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

Well, there's always the case of crooked bingo at Barona in California. I don't think, "Indian Gaming" has ever recovered from that black eye.



Quote: Ayecarumba

Like this story from the FBI's website about a ring of crooked dealers (who started in Indian Casinos with weak protection) working with accomplices to take advantage of pre-sorted sequences of cards in shoes. In this case the casinos were victims of crooked personnel, but isn't that always going to be the case. While I think the vast, vast majority of legal casinos in the U.S. have no need to cheat customers with underhanded gadgets, the lack of oversight noted when these stories do come out regarding crooked employees at Indian casinos doesn't fill me with confidence.



You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I wouldn't fault you a bit if you choose not to patronize a tribal casino. I'm just trying to figure out the stigma behind some of the comments, specifically the ones that state that the tribe, through use of the casino, is ripping someone off. Your first example looks to be the work of a shady employee, done for his benefit. It is certainly not a case of the tribe participating in any action that would short a player for their gain. The second one with the Tran orginization, those guys were running that scam for years in Asian casinos and made off with many more millions than the relatively paltry sum they got in the States. And besides, their deal affected the players in no way whatsoever, that was a scam against the casino.

Yes, I'm probably being defensive, but I also truely don't see where the concern is. In my personal experience, any gaming issue is handled jointly by the tribe and the state, and any legal issue is handled by County Sheriffs, State Police, and in some cases, the Secret Service and FBI, and I just don't see how the idea that tribal casinos are somehow lawless came to be.
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FleaStiff
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May 18th, 2011 at 3:42:00 AM permalink
Quote: gofaster87

Several years ago Chumash Casino in Santa Ynez was caught rigging machines and drawings. People did get fired over the events. Its in the LA paper archives. It hasn't hurt them a bit, you have to wait in line to get on a machine or table game.

I recall that a female floorperson from Vegas who was on a sort of girl's trip to California was playing blackjack at that casino and saw some things that alarmed her but she hesitated to reveal anything since she was trying to count cards at the time.

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