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DJTeddyBear
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May 17th, 2011 at 1:48:47 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

Well, there's always the case of crooked bingo at Barona in California. I don't think, "Indian Gaming" has ever recovered from that black eye.

There's nothing in that article that would lead anyone to believe that this occurred because it was Indian Gaming.

On the contrary, it's just a story about individual employees that were dishonest.

It's very similar to a story about Slots of Trouble at Empire City / Yonkers Raceway.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition.
Nareed
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May 17th, 2011 at 1:53:34 PM permalink
In BJ a fixed deck, or a fixed shoe, requires that the cards be played a certain way. You'd need to be able to predict all the players' actions. This would be possible if you wanted to cheat the casino (assuming you can plant the fixed deck or shoe), because you can predict exactly what the dealer will do. Even then you'd need to pack the table with accomplices.

Fixing the deck would work for the casino in games like Pai Gow Poker and TCP. Possibly in Let it Ride and maybe in other poker variations. In short in any game where the players don't draw cards.
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Ayecarumba
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May 17th, 2011 at 2:28:17 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

In BJ a fixed deck, or a fixed shoe, requires that the cards be played a certain way. You'd need to be able to predict all the players' actions. This would be possible if you wanted to cheat the casino (assuming you can plant the fixed deck or shoe), because you can predict exactly what the dealer will do. Even then you'd need to pack the table with accomplices.

Fixing the deck would work for the casino in games like Pai Gow Poker and TCP. Possibly in Let it Ride and maybe in other poker variations. In short in any game where the players don't draw cards.



Like this story from the FBI's website about a ring of crooked dealers (who started in Indian Casinos with weak protection) working with accomplices to take advantage of pre-sorted sequences of cards in shoes. In this case the casinos were victims of crooked personnel, but isn't that always going to be the case. While I think the vast, vast majority of legal casinos in the U.S. have no need to cheat customers with underhanded gadgets, the lack of oversight noted when these stories do come out regarding crooked employees at Indian casinos doesn't fill me with confidence.
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MathExtremist
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May 17th, 2011 at 2:30:52 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

In BJ a fixed deck, or a fixed shoe, requires that the cards be played a certain way. You'd need to be able to predict all the players' actions. This would be possible if you wanted to cheat the casino (assuming you can plant the fixed deck or shoe), because you can predict exactly what the dealer will do. Even then you'd need to pack the table with accomplices.

Fixing the deck would work for the casino in games like Pai Gow Poker and TCP. Possibly in Let it Ride and maybe in other poker variations. In short in any game where the players don't draw cards.


Most commonly in baccarat. Deck-fixing in baccarat can be very dangerous, especially when done intelligently, i.e. with knowledge of how a specific baccarat tracking system works.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
gofaster87
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May 17th, 2011 at 3:45:58 PM permalink
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DJTeddyBear
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May 17th, 2011 at 4:14:21 PM permalink
Quote: gofaster87

Several years ago Chumash Casino in Santa Ynez was caught rigging machines and drawings. People did get fired over the events. Its in the LA paper archives. It hasn't hurt them a bit, you have to wait in line to get on a machine or table game.

Who was the beneficiary of the rigged machines? The casino, or the people that got fired?

I'll assume that it was the people. As such, it doesn't matter if the casino was an Indian casino or not.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition.
gofaster87
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May 17th, 2011 at 4:21:08 PM permalink
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buzzpaff
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May 17th, 2011 at 4:52:41 PM permalink
What most of theses geniuses overlook is that 3 people can keep a secret only if 2 of them are dead !
Face
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Face
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May 18th, 2011 at 12:20:19 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

Well, there's always the case of crooked bingo at Barona in California. I don't think, "Indian Gaming" has ever recovered from that black eye.



Quote: Ayecarumba

Like this story from the FBI's website about a ring of crooked dealers (who started in Indian Casinos with weak protection) working with accomplices to take advantage of pre-sorted sequences of cards in shoes. In this case the casinos were victims of crooked personnel, but isn't that always going to be the case. While I think the vast, vast majority of legal casinos in the U.S. have no need to cheat customers with underhanded gadgets, the lack of oversight noted when these stories do come out regarding crooked employees at Indian casinos doesn't fill me with confidence.



You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I wouldn't fault you a bit if you choose not to patronize a tribal casino. I'm just trying to figure out the stigma behind some of the comments, specifically the ones that state that the tribe, through use of the casino, is ripping someone off. Your first example looks to be the work of a shady employee, done for his benefit. It is certainly not a case of the tribe participating in any action that would short a player for their gain. The second one with the Tran orginization, those guys were running that scam for years in Asian casinos and made off with many more millions than the relatively paltry sum they got in the States. And besides, their deal affected the players in no way whatsoever, that was a scam against the casino.

Yes, I'm probably being defensive, but I also truely don't see where the concern is. In my personal experience, any gaming issue is handled jointly by the tribe and the state, and any legal issue is handled by County Sheriffs, State Police, and in some cases, the Secret Service and FBI, and I just don't see how the idea that tribal casinos are somehow lawless came to be.
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FleaStiff
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May 18th, 2011 at 3:42:00 AM permalink
Quote: gofaster87

Several years ago Chumash Casino in Santa Ynez was caught rigging machines and drawings. People did get fired over the events. Its in the LA paper archives. It hasn't hurt them a bit, you have to wait in line to get on a machine or table game.

I recall that a female floorperson from Vegas who was on a sort of girl's trip to California was playing blackjack at that casino and saw some things that alarmed her but she hesitated to reveal anything since she was trying to count cards at the time.

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