is it possible to rig the shuffling machines in blackjack?
Do you have a source of information on this story? The value on that would be worth over 50% on your big bets. Why did he only know the first card would be an ACE and not what all the cards would be?Quote: TomspurI am most certainly not cunfusing the two, in fact I know both very, very well.
There was a case a few years back in Macau where a gentleman of South African decent (I believe he was a musician) managed to track how the cards would come out in a CSM (Continuous shuffling machine) by listening to the machines internal workings. He apparetnly practiced at home (he had one) for a while and managed to find out how the sequencing of cards went with that particular brand of CSM. He figured out that, due to a defect with the algorythms of the shuffle machine, the same two cards always preceeded the dealing of an ACE. He sat in first base and when he knew the first card dealt would be an ACE he would increase his bet. Obviously this gives him a substantial advantage over the game.
He was caught but he didn't cheat, he was simply a skilled AP.
SHFL has in the interim recalled those shufflers and fixed the faulty algorythm.
Also CSM's can be counted too.............
In closing I know what an ASM is as well, they save the casino on time and motion issues but i have never seen one shuffle in a way that would stack the deck either for the house or against the house, then again I have not yet investigated all brands and all types.
I do have a little bit of experience in this field you know :)
Quote: AxelWolfDo you have a source of information on this story? The value on that would be worth over 50% on your big bets. Why did he only know the first card would be an ACE and not what all the cards would be?
I have it from the horses mouth so to speak (the Surveillance director involved in the apprehension).
The faulty algorythm only allowed for one particular card to be placed inside this pocket with these two other cards. When those "lead cards" were dealt and the next card was to be dealt, he knew only the value of that card.......
This is as far as I know. Because I'm in the industry I will most assuredly not divulge my source but as far as I can tell it is reputable.
As mentioned though the problem has been fixed and there are no more opportunities.....HOWEVER SHFL until this day deny that there was ever any problems.
Oh well, who really cares if there is no longer any opportunities right?
Imagine if card counters said that when they added more decks and shoes. One should not give up so fast if the information is true. Not sure how this was fixed however things break or things are forgotten, I can think of a few scenarios, who knows.Quote: TomspurI have it from the horses mouth so to speak (the Surveillance director involved in the apprehension).
Oh well, who really cares if there is no longer any opportunities right?
I only asked because of people like Varmenti and his wild inaccurate stories. This sounds legit however.
Quote: IbeatyouracesBut there is one thing you do that will thwart any "rigging" the machine may have. It has no clue how you'll play the hand.
You're right. Sometimes I'll hit an 11.
Every deck of cards is marked. The cards I have from OShea's have a crosshatch pattern like fabric. There are pits and flats loww spots and raised. It's the same stitching as bicycle cards. Even to the naked eye you can she this but under an eyepiece, every card is different. If you can control the ware pattern as cards are constantly being rubbed together and generating spots where the paper is worn. I was shocked when I was think in about this a few weeks ago. I was looking at the back of the top car and guessed it based on the light pattern that projected the number 7. It was the only card I got right, but I found it amusing.
Quote: TomspurI'm sure most of you guys know this but the shuffle machines have been "tracked" successfully (even thought he algorythms have since been fixed) AND shuffling machines can be counted.
It is not a very high +EV game. There are two large advantages though.....
1) Nobody will question you if you spread 20 units or larger as "it is a shuffle machine, nobody can beat it"
2) The technique is not very well proven but it is incredibly easy.
I don't think you could make a living from it but you could enjoy a few hands and spread your bets without worrying about heat?
I'm not sure if this is reallyw aht this thread is about, I just thought I would give my penny's worth :)
Quote: AcesAndEightsYou are confusing CSM with ASM.
CSM: Continuous Shuffling Machine. Continuously shuffles the cards as they are played, yielding a game that is impossible (or highly unprofitable) to count, since it's effectively a game with half a deck or so penetration (depending on how long the dealer lets the discards pile up).
ASM: Automatic Shuffling Machine. Automates the process of shuffling a full 6-deck shoe (or 4-deck, or 2-deck, or whatever). Resultant shuffled cards are placed into the shoe and dealt like normal, to a preset cut card. Just as countable as a traditional hand-shuffled game, but not shuffle-trackable for the "advanced" APs.
Most of this thread is about ASMs and the possibility that they are "stacking" the deck in favor of the house via any number of nefarious, and yet unproven schemes.
Quote: TomspurI am most certainly not cunfusing the two, in fact I know both very, very well.
There was a case a few years back in Macau where a gentleman of South African decent (I believe he was a musician) managed to track how the cards would come out in a CSM (Continuous shuffling machine) by listening to the machines internal workings. He apparetnly practiced at home (he had one) for a while and managed to find out how the sequencing of cards went with that particular brand of CSM. He figured out that, due to a defect with the algorythms of the shuffle machine, the same two cards always preceeded the dealing of an ACE. He sat in first base and when he knew the first card dealt would be an ACE he would increase his bet. Obviously this gives him a substantial advantage over the game.
He was caught but he didn't cheat, he was simply a skilled AP.
SHFL has in the interim recalled those shufflers and fixed the faulty algorythm.
Also CSM's can be counted too.............
In closing I know what an ASM is as well, they save the casino on time and motion issues but i have never seen one shuffle in a way that would stack the deck either for the house or against the house, then again I have not yet investigated all brands and all types.
I do have a little bit of experience in this field you know :)
I know you have experience in the casino industry and don't doubt you know the difference between the 2 machines. I was only stating that the thread was started about ASMs, and in your post I replied to (quoted first above), you were clearly talking about CSMs. That's all.
I understood what you meant, but wanted to make sure it was clear for everyone. Some gambling newbies confuse the two types of shuffling machines, and it's very important to know the difference, especially if you are an aspiring counter.
Quote: AcesAndEightsI know you have experience in the casino industry and don't doubt you know the difference between the 2 machines. I was only stating that the thread was started about ASMs, and in your post I replied to (quoted first above), you were clearly talking about CSMs. That's all.
I understood what you meant, but wanted to make sure it was clear for everyone. Some gambling newbies confuse the two types of shuffling machines, and it's very important to know the difference, especially if you are an aspiring counter.
I absolutely agree with you :)
/// Playing two-deck or one-deck blackjack at home and two-deck or one-deck hand-shuffled blackjack at a casino (where available) is VERY different than playing at a table with 4-8 decks using shuffle machines. ///
*I have noticed that the probability strategy (which I use) does not work well with machine-shuffled tables or tables with more than 2 decks.
*There is a chance that the machines that shuffle the cards do not shuffle the decks randomly (at the very least) and with possibility of missing cards. Furthermore, unlike the hand-shuffled one and two deck tables, you do not get to see all the cards on the table (when they change decks). What would happen if the tens are clumped together in certain sequence? Probability goes out the window. Only people that will have a chance at an even game with the dealer would be someone with a big bank roll and consistent betting (i.e. betting $10 for all hands). And what if a few tens are missing from the decks? It gives the dealer a much higher chance of not busting and getting a much higher chance of getting 3-5 card 20's for the dealer.
If you are a BJ player using probability and betting strategy (betting high when you have a higher probability of getting better cards), avoid machine-shuffled tables at all cost. In my opinion, many of these casinos are going far and above to take your money and rip you off using whatever (legal and not so legal)strategy they can even with the dealer advantage they have (i.e. whether dealer wins or loses, anyone that busts on the table loses first and the dealer gets the money).
I have found a few casinos that work well for me, and I feel safe playing blackjack there because they have hand-shuffled blackjack tables. These two casinos here in CO are run by the same company called, Affinity Gaming. Whatever the case, I recommend a casino that have one, two, or three hand-shuffled tables (three would even better since they only use half of the cards. So two-deck would feel like playing with one and three would be like 1.5 decks).
The casinos could very easily rig a game to be very advantageous to the casino by clumping Aces together within the shoe... SO EASY right??
Aces are 1 or 11, so when someone has a 12, then get A, 2,A,A.. There is 3 aces removed from the 6 deck shoe, limiting the players ability get a blackjack.. then on top of that you deal 5 players (A,5) (A,2)(A8) ect ect. you burn through more aces.. this would probably give the casino about a 5% more advantage then normal..
The only thing the "automatic shuffler machine" would have to do is group aces together and therefore cutting the shoe should not matter since either way Aces will still be grouped together..
Quote: dabomboo7oI want to make this easy for people..
The casinos could very easily rig a game to be very advantageous to the casino by clumping Aces together within the shoe... SO EASY right??
Aces are 1 or 11, so when someone has a 12, then get A, 2,A,A.. There is 3 aces removed from the 6 deck shoe, limiting the players ability get a blackjack.. then on top of that you deal 5 players (A,5) (A,2)(A8) ect ect. you burn through more aces.. this would probably give the casino about a 5% more advantage then normal..
The only thing the "automatic shuffler machine" would have to do is group aces together and therefore cutting the shoe should not matter since either way Aces will still be grouped together..
That would be completely noticeable if they did that.
Card counting advantage is mostly made through the player getting blackjack..
Even with card counting there will be many pushes where dealer and player both get 20, but the idea is to get pay and a half with blackjack... and it is totally possible for those machines to group aces.. they could group them in 3 sections or all at once..
Quote: dabomboo7oRight, and it should not matter since grouping the aces is just a way to "burn" through them fast, limiting the possibility for player blackjack..
Card counting advantage is mostly made through the player getting blackjack..
Even with card counting there will be many pushes where dealer and player both get 20, but the idea is to get pay and a half with blackjack... and it is totally possible for those machines to group aces.. they could group them in 3 sections or all at once..
None of this changes the house edge. Not that it's not possible for the casino to cheat, just that this method won't work. If they want to cheat they just need to leave some 10s and As out of the shoe.
Those shuffle machines are leased for thousands, can "read" each card to make sure all the cards are there each time shuffled ect. Of course they could program the machine to group aces in order to give a higher percentage to the house.
Quote: dabomboo7oIf there was a audit by the gaming commission and cards were left out of the "shoe" their license would be revoked ect, not to mention a PR nightmare. This method would work, it is just a way of "removing" aces from the shoe by technically not removing them.. It is basically impossible to prove and would increase the casino edge (not as much as actually removing cards from the shoes) but none the less, a big disadvantage to the player.. If they really wanted to cheat they would remove 10's and Aces and replace them with 5 and sixes, that would be devastating to the player.
Those shuffle machines are leased for thousands, can "read" each card to make sure all the cards are there each time shuffled ect. Of course they could program the machine to group aces in order to give a higher percentage to the house.
Once again, clumping the aces together does not increase the house edge in the game. In fact, if smart players were to catch onto it, it would lead to a huge player advantage.
Furthermore, it would be much, much (much much much) easier to get away with leaving a few cards out of the shoe than to get away with hacking and reprogramming the machine. It's not like you destroy the cards. You leave them in the box, and when you switch the decks out, the used cards rejoin the ones that were left out. This would be extremely difficult to catch.
The bottom line is that the house has a built-in edge, and most people play terribly and lose at a much higher rate than that built-in edge. You don't need to look for crazy conspiracy theories to explain your losses. You are losing because the house has the edge. You're supposed to lose.
Its a losing game, but one of the best odds in the house, IF it is a fair game. Card counting only provides a 1-2% edge, and they can surely lose a lot of money with variance as well.
Quote: dabomboo7ocasino edge is .66% if basic strategy is played perfect with a 6 deck shoe with standard rules HS17, one card on aces, split 4 times, double down anytime ect. That is a small casino edge and easily overcome by variance. .66c lost on each 100 bet is not a lot of money considering slot machines are in the realm of 25% edge and roulette is about 5-6% casino edge.
Its a losing game, but one of the best odds in the house, IF it is a fair game. Card counting only provides a 1-2% edge, and they can surely lose a lot of money with variance as well.
1. Edges are not overcome by variance.
2. Have you ever been inside a casino? Ever seen people play blackjack in a casino? I don't know what they are doing but I can guarantee you this: they are sure as hell not following basic strategy perfectly.
3. Slot machines are not in the realm of 25% edge. Where did you hear that?
another huge advantage of casino is the limitless money they have. Even if a game was 50/50 a player would still most likely lose in the long run due to their limited bankroll unable to handle the variance of the game (since most gamblers do not stop while ahead)..
Quote: dabomboo7oanother huge advantage of casino is the limitless money they have. Even if a game was 50/50 a player would still most likely lose in the long run due to their limited bankroll unable to handle the variance of the game (since most gamblers do not stop while ahead)..
That does not increase the casino's advantage.
1. Increased chance of getting two high cards in the deal. (For 17-21)
2. Increased chance of doubling and receiving a ten.
3. Increased chance of dealer busting, if it draws.
4. Increased chance of a blackjack.
I feel that a clear answer on this might resolve some of the more outlandish proposals.
Quote: VenthusSomething I've been wondering for some time now, that's somewhat related to the discussion at hand-- where exactly does the advantage in counting come from? I see primarily four sources:
1. Increased chance of getting two high cards in the deal. (For 17-21)
2. Increased chance of doubling and receiving a ten.
3. Increased chance of dealer busting, if it draws.
4. Increased chance of a blackjack.
I feel that a clear answer on this might resolve some of the more outlandish proposals.
1 isn't a source, because the dealer has the same chance of getting the same hands. It is from more blackjacks paying 1.5, more dealer busting, good insurance bets, more doubling and more successful doubling, more splitting and more successful splitting. The ones mentioned early on in Pro. Blackjack are the naturals and the dealer busting.
Quote: dabomboo7oa casino having unlimited money vs. a players limited amount of money IS a edge the casino has.. another edge they have is table limits so one cannot execute the martingale system of betting..
That is not an edge. You seem to not understand expectation or variance.
Quote: VenthusSomething I've been wondering for some time now, that's somewhat related to the discussion at hand-- where exactly does the advantage in counting come from? I see primarily four sources:
1. Increased chance of getting two high cards in the deal. (For 17-21)
No edge here; the dealer is just as likely to receive two high cards as you are. The only exceptions are blackjack (mentioned below: since you get a 3:2 payout on your blackjacks, you gain EV when both of your blackjack chances increase) and AA (since you can split it and the dealer cant -- it's worth more to you than it is to the dealer). If you're willing to split TT in very high counts there is some small edge gained there (TT becomes worth more to you than to the dealer) but that is tiny, and probably mostly offset by the increased number of pushes.
Quote:2. Increased chance of doubling and receiving a ten.
There is some edge here, since you can double and the dealer can't. It is somewhat offset by the decreased chance of receiving a doubling hand (most doubling hands are two small cards, or a small card and a medium card)
Quote:3. Increased chance of dealer busting, if it draws.
This is huge. The dealer draws to all his stiffs; you only draw to some of yours. A higher percentage of busts therefore helps you.
Quote:4. Increased chance of a blackjack.
Also huge. You win 1.5 bets when you get a blackjack, but lose only 1 bet when the dealer does.
Remember that it's you against the dealer, so don't only think of what you might get or what the dealer might get -- you need to think of both.
That was what I was going to say as well. Why wouldn't he RUN back with a bag of cash and look for that happening and then crush it ? But then I thought, he must have been thinking they can control the aces to never come out with high cards or something goofy like that.Quote: AxiomOfChoiceOnce again, clumping the aces together does not increase the house edge in the game. In fact, if smart players were to catch onto it, it would lead to a huge player advantage.
Quote: 3102yumaI have made my last trip to Winstar Casino in Thackerville in Oklahoma. I have played blackjack for 30 years all over the country, but never at the Indian Casinos. I have won and lost, and admit to being somewhat of a sore loser. I have come to the conclusion you simply cannot win there. When I sit at a table, eventually everybody ends up disgusted from losing over and over and leave. It seems like know one wins. I wander if there are any former pit bosses from Vegas that work there and through their years of experience can see that something is just not right. It is uncanny how many blackjacks, aces up in a row that the dealers get. They crack me up when they put on what seems to be an act that they are so suprised by all their blackjacks, standing 20's, and hitting and not busting. I wish I had kept statistics on the percentage of hands I win. What I am sure of is that I can play 75-150 hands and maybe win three hands in a row during that stretch of playing. I can play 50 hands and never see a two-card 20 until the dealer has the samething. It does not matter if I am playing at a table with six decks or tables where they re-shuffle once they get through about two decks.
I cannnot go there and even play a leisurely game at the $5.00 minimum table. We just seem to lose and lose and lose. I want to repeat that I am a very experienced player, aware of bad streaks and the possibility of losing 10,15 or more hands in a row. But this is rediculous. I wrote the gaming commission, but I am already aware of the setup in Oklahoma and know it will fall upon deaf ears.
Could the machines be set up where once 'card-rich' hands that lean towards the house began to be shuffled into the machines in away that really increase the houses chance of winning. I play almost 99% by the mathmatics of the game.
i truly believe that one day it will be proven that somehow those shuffling machines are rigged.
Not one more .50 cent ante from me. I am done.
I 100% agree with 3102Yuma, I really believe the decks are rigged there too, and that the odds are stacked against the players. I have traveled around the world and I have never ever seen more people lose at blackjack at this place than any other place in the world. To be fair, I actually broke even, after buying a buffet for 3 buddies of mine, but I bet smart and got out real fast because of that insane ante of .50 cents one must pay after every hand, which I believe is criminal.
This place needs to be shutdown and needs to go out of business.
A complete joke.
At .50cents ante per bet, you're losing $30.00-$60.00 per hour. A damn joke, I will never ever go there to gamble.
Quote: thlfI worked at shufflemaster for several years. The shufflers are not nor can they be rigged. I had all of the internal passwords to set up the software, firmware, etc. and there is nothing there that can be altered to gain advantage either way. They are exactly as u see them.
Hi
I have a question. I know the shufflers can tell if a card is missing. Does the shufflers have different shuffle sequences or do they have card recognition on them? If they have any of those features they can be rigged.
Quote: odiousgambitthe machine would have to be rigged so that it feeds the right cards to just the dealer. That is quite an ambitious cheat seems to me.
Seems to me too.
A lot of people lose? With a 50 cent ante per hand I would think so. But that doesn't account for the poor outcomes the OP seems to always encounter. Double whamy.
Perhaps some expert in cheating could speculate. I very much doubt the shuffle machine could be compromised to deliver the dealer just the right second card or hit card to his hand. It sounds impossible unless internally 10 different cards were held in separate mechanisms and a confederate viewing the game (surveillance comes to mind) could manipulate the draw of any of those 10 cards with precision timing. Too many people would be in on the fix. Someone will brag or drop the dime to avoid time for some other felony.
Of course, this being an Indian casino anything's possible. The U.S. would be unenthusiastic about getting involved. Their intrusion might lead to a lawsuit that would last fifty years and in the end Oklahoma would be rechristened Indian Territory and would truly be a Sovereign Indian Nation with complete autonomy.
Quote: GreasyjohnSeems to me too.
A lot of people lose? With a 50 cent ante per hand I would think so. But that doesn't account for the poor outcomes the OP seems to always encounter. Double whamy.
Perhaps some expert in cheating could speculate. I very much doubt the shuffle machine could be compromised to deliver the dealer just the right second card or hit card to his hand. It sounds impossible unless internally 10 different cards were held in separate mechanisms and a confederate viewing the game (surveillance comes to mind) could manipulate the draw of any of those 10 cards with precision timing. Too many people would be in on the fix. Someone will brag or drop the dime to avoid time for some other felony.
Of course, this being an Indian casino anything's possible. The U.S. would be unenthusiastic about getting involved. Their intrusion might lead to a lawsuit that would last fifty years and in the end Oklahoma would be rechristened Indian Territory and would truly be a Sovereign Indian Nation with complete autonomy.
The machines only have to be rigged to hold back the 10 cards. If that is possible the casino will win almost every time.
Quote: 3102yumaI have made my last trip to Winstar Casino in Thackerville in Oklahoma. I have played blackjack for 30 years all over the country, but never at the Indian Casinos. I have won and lost, and admit to being somewhat of a sore loser. I have come to the conclusion you simply cannot win there. When I sit at a table, eventually everybody ends up disgusted from losing over and over and leave. It seems like know one wins. I wander if there are any former pit bosses from Vegas that work there and through their years of experience can see that something is just not right. It is uncanny how many blackjacks, aces up in a row that the dealers get. They crack me up when they put on what seems to be an act that they are so suprised by all their blackjacks, standing 20's, and hitting and not busting. I wish I had kept statistics on the percentage of hands I win. What I am sure of is that I can play 75-150 hands and maybe win three hands in a row during that stretch of playing. I can play 50 hands and never see a two-card 20 until the dealer has the samething. It does not matter if I am playing at a table with six decks or tables where they re-shuffle once they get through about two decks.
I cannnot go there and even play a leisurely game at the $5.00 minimum table. We just seem to lose and lose and lose. I want to repeat that I am a very experienced player, aware of bad streaks and the possibility of losing 10,15 or more hands in a row. But this is rediculous. I wrote the gaming commission, but I am already aware of the setup in Oklahoma and know it will fall upon deaf ears.
Could the machines be set up where once 'card-rich' hands that lean towards the house began to be shuffled into the machines in away that really increase the houses chance of winning. I play almost 99% by the mathmatics of the game.
i truly believe that one day it will be proven that somehow those shuffling machines are rigged.
Not one more .50 cent ante from me. I am done.
Try this
On the CSM's
Stand back and watch the game for a time and do the high - low count. If your count continues to go up ether direction, something is wrong.
On the 6 deck game w/cut card at 1/3 just count the high cards including the aces. Each shoe should have on average 80. Let me know what you get. Or are you truly done. Lol!!!
Quote: TomspurI am most certainly not cunfusing the two, in fact I know both very, very well.
There was a case a few years back in Macau where a gentleman of South African decent (I believe he was a musician) managed to track how the cards would come out in a CSM (Continuous shuffling machine) by listening to the machines internal workings. He apparetnly practiced at home (he had one) for a while and managed to find out how the sequencing of cards went with that particular brand of CSM. He figured out that, due to a defect with the algorythms of the shuffle machine, the same two cards always preceeded the dealing of an ACE. He sat in first base and when he knew the first card dealt would be an ACE he would increase his bet. Obviously this gives him a substantial advantage over the game.
He was caught but he didn't cheat, he was simply a skilled AP.
SHFL has in the interim recalled those shufflers and fixed the faulty algorythm.
Also CSM's can be counted too.............
In closing I know what an ASM is as well, they save the casino on time and motion issues but i have never seen one shuffle in a way that would stack the deck either for the house or against the house, then again I have not yet investigated all brands and all types.
I do have a little bit of experience in this field you know :)
Just came across this post.
I think I met this guy in person some years ago. It was in Sands Macau. This post made my mind clear about what and how he was doing at that time.
He sat in the first base and made minimum bet every hand. Suddenly he bet maximum and then his first card was dealt an Ace.
There was one occasion that he was dealt a pair of Ace. After he split, he made a big bet on pairs. You know the result.
There was also a fat lady that possessed the same skill.
Quote: thlfI worked at shufflemaster for several years. The shufflers are not nor can they be rigged. I had all of the internal passwords to set up the software, firmware, etc. and there is nothing there that can be altered to gain advantage either way. They are exactly as u see them.
I agree because the shuffler can't predict if someone leaves the table or deviats from basic strategy.
Quote: jjjooogggI agree because the shuffler can't predict if someone leaves the table or deviats from basic strategy.
Don't need to. There are certain sequences of cards, including certain types of clumping that will increase the house advantage regardless how many players and/or whether players enter or lave the game. Where a player cuts the decks also will not effect this increased advantage.
As for the passwords that the guy that worked for shufflemaster spoke of, it is my understanding the casinos are also in possession of these 'codes'. I have a friend that works at one of the strip casinos's that tells me there are several sequences they can program the shuffler to do, including low to high by suit to determine that all cards are there. They just need to enter the code to access this feature. In the case of his particular casino, the codes aren't available to all in the pit, only the supervisor.
So the technology is there. It would be illegal in Las Vegas and most jurisdiction, but the technology is definitely there, which does make me a little uncomfortable and a little cautious against ASM's. In my own case, there is a store that I play regularly on boulder highway, (maxpen knows) where my lifetime results are suspiciously below expectation. I am not making any accusations, just something I am keeping an eye on.
CSM can identify the number of each card and "eye in the sky" can read each palyer's card
and provide the dealer an appropriate card. It might be that the sysytem is capable of
adjusting the degree of dealers winning not to make the rigging completely obvious.
I went to macau recently and experienced dealer winning in almost an impossible rate.
Several yeras ago. I experiened a similar situation in Las Vegas, and mind you, the casino
was one of the most famous casinos at that time. The common thing in two cases was
they happened on Dec.31 and a lot of guests were playing.
Well that is enough proof. Case closed. Whats the old saying? First time shame on them, 2nd time shame on you. It's beyond me why you guys go back for more. Hidden cameras are like $30. Next year go at the same bat time and the same bat place, STAND don't play and record "the evidence", once you have gathered enough evidence sue them or something. Everyone wants to talk about it, but no one wants to do anything about it. I'm certain it's all in your heads but anything is possible.Quote: wtbI agree with wroberson on the possibility of CSM being rigged.
CSM can identify the number of each card and "eye in the sky" can read each palyer's card
and provide the dealer an appropriate card. It might be that the sysytem is capable of
adjusting the degree of dealers winning not to make the rigging completely obvious.
I went to macau recently and experienced dealer winning in almost an impossible rate.
Several yeras ago. I experiened a similar situation in Las Vegas, and mind you, the casino
was one of the most famous casinos at that time. The common thing in two cases was
they happened on Dec.31 and a lot of guests were playing.
The shufflers used are not just shufflers, they are computers. At the end of the day we used to sort or count the cards to verify. Now we just hit "sort" and the machine spits them out, suited and in order.
Are they cheating you? I've seen posts that say the dealer gets pat 20's and BJ's more than any players. Hit a 19, split 10's, etc, and it will mess up the rest of the shoe. That's pretty much impossible because the shuffler doesn't know where the cards are going to land.
HOWEVER, Think about this and post a reply. If a shuffler grouped 10's, say 2-3 clumps of 8-10 cards, it would be probable that one of the groups of 10's would be cut off the shoe (behind the cut card) With everything else being equal, the shoe would start off at minus 10. I don't want to get into true counts and such but... Play that game for a couple hours and let me know how you do.
Personally, I don't see how this can be rigged. It seems completely implausible. Yes, in theory, cameras could monitor the number of players and the choices each makes. (Some have talked about how such cameras could also monitor which cards each player gets. That's true -- but if the game is rigged to the extent that some claim, why would it would be necessary to monitor which cards each player has? If it is rigged to that extent, the machine would already know which cards each player gets -- isn't that assumption inherent in the whole idea of rigging such a game?)
The shoe always has the next card ready to be dealt. Imagine Steve is at third base. Steve can see the next card face down in the shoe, waiting. Whether he takes it or not, the value of that card is already determined. If Steve stands, it will go to the dealer. If Steve hits or splits, it will be dealt to him. As soon as it is removed from the shoe, the next card pops into place, ready to be dealt. Steve may or may not take that card as well, but before he gets to make that call, the value of that card is already locked in. The value of each card is determined before Steve has to decide whether to take that card or not.
Now follow the same logic back around the table. With a table of seven players, you might get one or two who sit on their original 2 cards. The others will take 1-3 cards each (sometimes more, if they've split). Around the table, there could easily be 10-15 (or so) decision points, where a player decides to take another card or not. At each decision point, there is always a "next card" waiting to be pulled from the machine, with a value that is already set. Who gets that card will depend on what decision the current player makes. Those decisions are not predictable. They are not only unpredictable from one player to the next, but based on my observations, the average player is also inconsistent in the decisions that he or she makes. In fact, for most players that I see (especially late at night, when the booze has been flowing!) those decisions are wildly unpredictable. In order to rig the game, the whole chain of those decisions would have to be predicted from the outset. The machine would have to predict every decision that every player would make, before any cards have been dealt, including for players who have just sat down (or have not been playing long enough to detect any consistency in their decision-making). It just doesn't seem plausible.
It is even less plausible in Australia and other places where the dealer does not take a hole card. This means the dealer's second card is not dealt until after all the players have finished their hands. So, in order to guarantee the dealer a strong hand, the machine would have to predict every decision by every player, and do so even before the initial cards are dealt (that is, before the first player has made any decision or even seen any cards).
For the casino, the bottom-line outcome, even in a rigged game, also depends on how much each player bets. Because, even if all these decisions could be predicted, no cheating casino would surely be dumb enough to ensure that every player loses on every hand. It would have to "allow" some players to win, while being careful to manipulate the outcome after taking into account the bets each player actually makes (so that it wins more than it would in a "straight" game). Between the dealer closing the bets and dealing the first card, there is very little time (only 2-3 seconds) in which to compute the predictions and, after taking the bets into account, figure out the optimum card arrangement -- and then rearrange the physical cards inside the shoe to match that arrangement.
It seems impossible, and it also seems unnecessary. The casinos make bucket-loads of money anyway. Also, for those casinos that offer them, you have to factor in side bets too. I don't know about the States, but all the Australian casinos also offer side bets, usually based on pair-matching. (Players, even those who don't have a "seat", can bet on the first two cards being a pair. You can make this bet for any player on the table. The Star in Sydney offers simple pairs, where any pair pays 11-1. Jupiters, on the Gold Coast, offers "perfect pairs", which pay a sliding scale depending on a simple pair, which is two cards of the same value but different color, then pairs with matching color but different suits, and finally a pair with matching suit, which pays 30-1.) The amount of money bet on these silly side-bets is unbelievable! And in a rigged game, you would think the cheating casino would want to factor this in too, which would require taking into account which hands have side bets and the value of those bets, further adding to the complications.
So my conclusion: not possible, not plausible and not necessary!
(Apologies for the long post!)
As for the second part, about stacking the shoe with a pile of 10s, I don't know for sure. But my guess is that they would be randomly scattered -- but that random scattering can still result in clumps. In fact, that happens now, in fair games that use multiple decks and are randomly shuffled: you'll still get clumping. After all, there are only 13 different cards, so clumping is inevitable, especially for 10s, which make up 30.8% of a deck.
Welcome to the forum! Great first posts, thanks.
Quote: BeerKegBelly....
The shoe always has the next card ready to be dealt. Imagine Steve is at third base. Steve can see the next card face down in the shoe, waiting. Whether he takes it or not, the value of that card is already determined. If Steve stands, it will go to the dealer. If Steve hits or splits, it will be dealt to him. As soon as it is removed from the shoe, the next card pops into place, ready to be dealt. Steve may or may not take that card as well, but before he gets to make that call, the value of that card is already locked in. The value of each card is determined before Steve has to decide whether to take that card or not.
....
what you described is a "cold deck". If you are playing poker, then you need a cold deck to bait your victim. exactly what card to whom at what time.
but if you are playing blackjack, that kind of precision is really not necessary. all you have to do is to withhold a few high cards and you gain an edge.
but of course, i am not saying the casino WILL do that, i am just saying they COULD.
Quote: billionairebenSome of them only charge the ante if you don't use a players card. If it's an "ante" you get it back if you win, is that the case (I haven't been there.) Still too high, they'd be better off giving a nice looking game that has a high edge like Mississippi stud. I'd like to see a draw version of MS, that would be a good game. :)
At WinStar you are charged the ante on each hand, and you never get it back. And you'll still see people playing $5 games. :smh:
Quote: KelmoIs it possilbe to rig a shuffler? It would be tough, as most gaming regulators require independant certification and testing of harware and software (such as GLI - Gaming Labrotories Internation) before approving them for use. In any case, the casino probably lack the engineering/software development expertise to rig a shuffler.
Actually, this is not true for Indian Casinos. The Federal regulations on Indian Casinos are mute on automated shufflers and no where require independent lab certification of shufflers - because they were written before shufflers came into wide usage and were never modified. I checked the specific Cherokee tribal regulations on North Carolina Cherokee casinos and they exactly mirror the federal regulations - and there are no requirements for independent lab testing on automated shufflers. Independent lab testing may be required in Nevada, NJ and California but it is an absolute falsehood that automated shufflers provided to Indian casinos must undergo outside certification in North Carolina.
And any number of independent contractors could write the software for rigging a shuffler. But it probably would not be necessary, since it must certainly exist.
Quote:Most casinos wouldn't risk their license and negative publicity for a few percentage points on blackjack. The real money is made in the machines in most jurisdictions; tables are an afterthought. I see some incidents cited, but they are generally crooked staff taking advantage of poor operational controls.
In Oklahoma, there would be no reason that the house would want to cheat a player; quite the opposite in fact. That jurisdiction is a "Player Banked" jurisdiction, which means that all the winning (except for a small % of operating cost) must be returned to the players in some form of prize. That is why they collect a commission on each hand (and with that, they make more money off players than they could by scamming them). cheating a player only to give his winnings to another player sound logical???
This might be true in Oklahoma - in player -banked games. But the argument "Most casinos wouldn't risk their license ..." has been argued before in this forum and I don't believe it. At Indian casinos there is 0.000% chance of a casino losing their license in a state like NC because the tribal gaming authority is a fiction and everyone is making too much money. Saying that casinos have no incentive to cheat their customers is like saying that men have no incentive to cheat on their wives.
With that being said, I used to work as a dealer for an Indian casino where when we opened and closed the table, the QUANTITY of the cards was checked, but not the actual cards. Could the casino get away with swapping an ace for a five? Probably, yes, because we were strictly not allowed (including the pit boss and floor supervisors) to check the cards themselves to determine if the deck was composed fairly.
The casino has every reason to keep their game as legitimate as possible seeing as how they are already making hand over fist. They don't need nor do they have any reason to rig their games.
On a personal note however, there were many times were my supervisor explained to me that the shuffle machine was "broken" when sometimes it would show that there was a missing card, for example I can clearly remember an instance where the shuffle machine showed that there was a Jack of diamonds missing from the shoe and when I mentioned this to my supervisor he said that it was just a broken machine.
Even with this information I still don't think casinos, especially poorly regulated ones like the Indian casino I worked for, rig their machines in terms of removing and adding cards that add to their advantage because there would be no reason to as that small advantage would jeopardize a multi-billion dollar company, and I've yet to see real evidence.
