3rd Tale of the Hustling Wars
A very darkly shaded grey.
Greyhound buses arrive nearly every half-hour throughout the day in Atlantic City. The cost of a bus ticket is currently $38 ($45 Friday and Saturday). To ease the pain to NYC patrons, the casinos all hand out a $25 free-play rebate. They used to hand out cash but we all know what happened with those. Many people simply left to enjoy a day at the beach without gambling.
So today, there are free-play rebates only that must be wagered in a slot machine.
Tropicana, Taj Mahal, and Resorts International all have pretty much the same setup. A greeter swipes your players card as you get off the bus and your free-play is directly loaded onto this card. You simply insert your players card into a slot machine and download the free-play using your pin number. The free-play is only valid until end of gaming business day which is usually 6 am the following morning.
The CET properties work somewhat differently. Caesars, Bally's and at the time of this hustle, Showboat used a free-play coupon or voucher system. (They still use this but with Showboat closed, its now Harrah's that takes customers from Greyhound.) When disembarking from the bus, the greeter leads the group into the bus lobby where she stands in front of a computer terminal. Customers line up there and hand over their bus rebate ticket section and casino players card. After swiping the card, the host will hand you a voucher from a stack she is holding for $25 free-play. If you do not have a players card, then you just show your ID and she will still hand you this same voucher with instructions to get your players card from the rewards desk. You need the card to use the vouchers when you insert them into a slot machine.
However, the vouchers themselves are anonymous. There is nothing that ties them to your personal account. For example, if you arrived with five friends and none of them wanted to gamble, they could hand you all of their vouchers and you could insert all of them into the slot machine with your own players card.
One reason this is possible is because the vouchers, unlike the free-play from other casinos which have daily time limits, are good for a quite generous and open period of play -- generally about 2-3 months. The dates seem to have no rhyme or reason, an example being from April 4th to June 15th. The longest period I have seen was valid for over one year and was handed out this past December.
Perhaps CET does this to save printing costs. A huge lot of vouchers are printed and from this lot, the hosts hand out the vouchers, the expiration date and range unchanging until either 1) they run out of that current set or 2) three days are left until expiration at which point they will begin handing out a newly printed set of vouchers.
This means the vouchers barcode has to be generic and not matched to any individual players account. It also means it is completely legit to save up your vouchers on a daily basis and just stick them all in on the last day of the valid period. While there is no intrinsic advantage to doing this, the benefit of playing several hundred all at once versus small $25 allotments on a daily basis cannot be undervalued. It is easier to hit a bonus round that makes it profitable with so much free-play together at one time.
All of this may be why the CET properties receive so much more business through Greyhound. While the other casinos get about 2-5 drop-offs per day, a bus is leaving for a CET property almost every trip. Approximately 20 buses per day drop of at Caesars, Bally's and (Showboat nee Harrah's) each and every day.
It is the generic free-play vouchers that also made CET properties the perfect target for a casino hustle that hit them beginning late Spring/early Summer of 2013. Caesars, Bally's and Showboat were about to fall victim to one of the most prodigious counterfeiting rings to hit the Atlantic City market.
And most confounding of all for them... it was all completely legal.
To be continued
Quote: HunterhillI enjoy the stories but just one comment. It makes no difference as far as hitting a bonus round whether you play the coupons one per day or all at once.I realize the time savings by using them all at once but it doesn't change your odds of winning.
For me there are certain machines I have played so often, I can see some of the "tells" when a bonus round is close to hitting. This doesn't guarantee it will be soon but I can often predict a bonus round is close.
With $25 free-play I am more likely to lose everything I've won by chasing this if I see the bonus is close whereas with a large amount of free-play I have a better chance of hitting it before playing through my winnings.
It is also psychologically better strategy since you feel you won a more satisfying amount when playing from large amounts of free-play at once. Turning over your $25 voucher eighty percent is not satisfying since you only won $20 but adding them all up and walking away with a couple hundred feels good.
Mathematically its the same thing but $20 bucks won each day does not add up in my pocket (because its gonna be spent on dinner before it adds up).
For the most part it is. However there are machines that DO have situations like this however I highly doubt he is playing them.Quote: Hunterhill"But I often can predict when a bonus round is going to hit" . No disrespect but this sounds like Voodoo nonsense.
There are two methods of purchasing your Greyhound bus ticket for Atlantic City. The first is directly from the live teller window where the salesclerk will hand you a four-part serrated-edge linked-ticket printed on a heavy cardboard paper stock. You rip off each portion as you go. The departure, bus bonus for casino, return and an itinerary receipt.
You can also get all of these by purchasing your tickets at the kiosk via cash or credit card. The kiosk will print out each portion of the ticket on separate sheets of flimsy computer paper -- one side of each ticket with all the trip info printed and the other side left a shiny blank. It is this flimsy computer paper that interested an enterprising Mr. X in this hustle. The computer paper was nothing special and could be purchased at any Kinko's or Staples and the ink used to print out the info was, well, ink from a printer.
After scanning in a ticket and using photo-shop to change dates, he was pretty much off and running. He only needed to print out the bus bonus section of the ticket. He didn't care about riding the bus round trip for five hours of the day. He was going to make this enterprise a bit more profitable than that. He was simply going to go to each casino the bus arrived at, every half-hour and hand in his bus bonus. Since the greeter at all the CET properties walked every one inside the lobby to accept the bonus and hand passengers the free-play vouchers, he simply had to mosey on up to the queue and insinuate himself as if he too was a passenger disembarking from the bus.
But Mr. X wanted to not only make this extremely profitable, but also expose himself to as little danger as possible. So, he decided not to actually do this himself. After all, he was the head honcho and should not be in the line of fire. He was the magic man with the printing process. Instead, he convinced a bunch of homeless people to do the dirty work for him.
With every half-hour bus arrival at a CET property, up to 4 homeless people, that were decently presentable, would mosey on into the line and present their bogus bus bonus. They were so well printed that the greeter didn't even notice they were counterfeits and these people would walk off with the legitimate $25 free-play voucher. They would exit the casino where they would rendezvous with Mr. X who would pay them $5 for their work. At two buses an hour, these guys were making a decent ten dollar an hour wage and Mr. X was getting $200 in free-play an hour for very little investment or risk. And since these were good at both video poker and video blackjack, he managed a very decent return.
This hustle went seemingly unnoticed for most of the summer of 2013 but eventually someone saw that sales and redemption numbers were not matching. The bus bonus is not something reimbursed by Greyhound which is probably why it managed to go on for so long. Most likely, there is some accounting done for the number of Greyhound bus tickets sold within a certain time-frame and number of redeemed bus bonus vouchers. And the numbers were very incongruously not lining up.
Certain there was some type of counterfeiting scheme, the bus company instituted a new Greyhound image watermark on the back of all their computer printing paper from the kiosk. And indeed, this seemed to shut down the entire operation. The numbers began to fall back into place.
But Mr. X wasn't about to let a great opportunity go by and he was very enterprising. It took him about two months to perfectly match up the watermark and printing process for both sides of the computer paper. The paper was still the same, after all, it was only the watermark pre-printed with a certain panache from the manufacturer he had to duplicate and as most everyone knows, if it's man-made, it can be duplicated.
By November of 2013, he and his crew were back in business.
By mid-winter, Greyhound and the CET casinos were once again seeing their numbers not matching up. They decided they had to do what any law-abiding business would with counterfeiters. They called in the police. A sting was set-up where the casino security would keep an eagle's eye out for anyone slipping into the line from a newly arrived bus.
Sure enough, they saw the culprits and security sprung on them like jackals. While not everyone in the ring, (there were quite a few people who switched up when they would do the hustle by this time) nonetheless, the casino had some people to throw the book at. And they most certainly planned on making an example of these counterfeiters.
They were brought to the local precinct for booking. There a representative of the CET properties arrived to file the formal complaint and charges. The conversation with the authorities went something like this:
"They've been counterfeiting these. The bus bonus portions of the Greyhound tickets," said the casino representative.
"So, they arrive by bus? What about the actual tickets for Greyhound? You have a sample of those being counterfeited?"
"No, they don't counterfeit the tickets for riding. They don't even ride the bus," stated the casino rep, certain that NOT riding the bus made the case even more heinous.
"Well, if they aren't riding the bus, then they aren't stealing anything from the bus company. There is no theft of service from riding without a legit ticket."
"That's correct. The only thing they do is come up and get the free-play. Here is a voucher for $25. This is what they have been stealing."
The authorities examined the voucher. "This is worth $25 each? Cash?"
"No, it's not cash. It must be wagered in a slot machine. There is no way of knowing what the actual value is until played."
"So, it's basically a freebie, a complimentary that you hand out?"
Seeing where this was going, the casino rep was quick to point out, "Yes, but only qualified bus patrons are allowed to have it. Everyone else is stealing them when they acquire them."
"So, what is the stated value of the voucher?"
Now, most businesses that deal with tickets, coupons or vouchers like to protect themselves from possible scalpers. That is why coupons for a free hamburger at McDonald's might state the value of the coupon is 1/20th of a penny. Even though the free food that it buys is worth a lot more, a scalper technically cannot sell the coupon for more than what its worth.
CET was no different in this respect. But this was about to bite them on the ass.
The authorities turned over the free-play vouchers and saw quite clearly the statement printed, "This voucher has no cash value."
Everyone arrested was free to go. You cannot steal something with no value that is freely handed out.
And now, CET had a big problem on their hands. Instead of making an example of these arrested citizens, they had just shown how they could not be prosecuted. They were facing an empowered counterfeiting ring...one that was completely legal.
To be continued.
Quote: Hunterhill"But I often can predict when a bonus round is going to hit" . No disrespect but this sounds like Voodoo nonsense.
Good. Keep thinking that. Protects my hustle, lol.
And my exact quote was I can often predict when a bonus round is "close". Not when it's going to hit. May sound like splitting hairs but they aren't the same claim.
Seriously, being able to predict the bonus round does not overcome the HE. And its not like I can say, "here it comes on the next spin." There are certain teases some machines give usually between 20 - 50 spins before the bonus round occurs. You will start getting two out of the three symbols lined up needed for a bonus round and they will keep repeatedly falling down but you will be one short. Usually this will then be followed by a period of several spins with almost no wins (I call it the dry spell before the storm where they try to suck you dry so you just give up before the bonus hits) and then a few more teases with the symbols and bam, you got the bonus.
This doesn't work for all games and doesn't work all the time but trust me, when you've played the same games for years, you can easily see when its coming. Works about 80% of the time.
But still doesn't eliminate house edge. However, helps a lot when trying to maximize free-play turnover.
Quote: darkoz
Seriously, being able to predict the bonus round does not overcome the HE. And its not like I can say, "here it comes on the next spin." There are certain teases some machines give usually between 20 - 50 spins before the bonus round occurs. You will start getting two out of the three symbols lined up needed for a bonus round and they will keep repeatedly falling down but you will be one short. Usually this will then be followed by a period of several spins with almost no wins (I call it the dry spell before the storm where they try to suck you dry so you just give up before the bonus hits) and then a few more teases with the symbols and bam, you got the bonus.
This isn't even remotely close to how slots work...
Quote: darkozQuote: Hunterhill"But I often can predict when a bonus round is going to hit" . No disrespect but this sounds like Voodoo nonsense.
Good. Keep thinking that. Protects my hustle, lol.
Voodoo or otherwise, if the monkey makes you money, go with the monkey.
Quote: DieterVoodoo or otherwise, if the monkey makes you money, go with the monkey.
That's pretty much it. I have to go with what makes me money.
I tell people I win at the casino almost every time I play (using advantage plays of course) and almost no one ever believes me. Yet, my rent is paid, my bills are paid, my vacations are paid from gambling. I haven't worked a day in years except gambling.
I must be delusional from what everyone says but oh well, the money in my pocket and draw says otherwise.
After you finish with this story can you update us with the current way they hand out the freeplay coupons. Can you still do it anonymously? I've taken the bus a few times and refused the coupon because I didn't want to use my cet card. Also, do you know how the Asian bus coupons work?
Can you tell us the name of the slot?Quote: darkoz
When in doubt whip the little fellow out.Quote: DieterVoodoo or otherwise, if the monkey makes you money, go with the monkey.
The Lovely Outlaws are one.
Bulls Eye is another (they have several versions of this game)
To a lesser extent triple double diamond with 12 free games.
This is true. The free coupon must state a number value.
Reminds me of the movie " wolf of wall street". The wolf in his boat tried to bribe the federal agent. He mentioned that if the agent work for him he will be paid several hundreds of thousands of dollars. The agent call his partner as 2 witnesses are required and a exact number like say $200,000 must be mentioned for the charge of bribery to stick.
I assume you are the said Mr X. Working with 4 homeless people day in and day out must be tiresome. Much as you said you made plenty of money this way I am awaiting your final concluding posting here.
By the way playing a bunch of coupons instead of one at a time is Voodoo.
Quote: randompersonDarkoz,
After you finish with this story can you update us with the current way they hand out the freeplay coupons. Can you still do it anonymously? I've taken the bus a few times and refused the coupon because I didn't want to use my cet card. Also, do you know how the Asian bus coupons work?
One more installment to go on the story.
They still hand out the free-play the same in AC. You don't need to use your CET card. Just show your ID and don't get on the line for your players card. However, you will need to use someone's card when you eventually play the voucher. At Bally's, current vouchers expire on April 30.
Can you be more specific about what you are looking for as far as Asian bus coupons go and I should point out I have not ridden an Asian casino bus in almost two years so don't know if my info would be relevant.
Quote: Deck007
I assume you are the said Mr X. Working with 4 homeless people day in and day out must be tiresome. Much as you said you made plenty of money this way I am awaiting your final concluding posting here.
By the way playing a bunch of coupons instead of one at a time is Voodoo.
Wrong on both statements!
Quote: darkozOne more installment to go on the story.
They still hand out the free-play the same in AC. You don't need to use your CET card. Just show your ID and don't get on the line for your players card. However, you will need to use someone's card when you eventually play the voucher. At Bally's, current vouchers expire on April 30.
Can you be more specific about what you are looking for as far as Asian bus coupons go and I should point out I have not ridden an Asian casino bus in almost two years so don't know if my info would be relevant.
For the Asian bus coupons, are they anonymous too or do you have to use a card?
Quote: randompersonFor the Asian bus coupons, are they anonymous too or do you have to use a card?
The Sands bus is anonymous. See "Another Tale of the Hustling Wars." All the others I believe use a players card. I never took the Asian bus to AC.
So this is a IGT multi line. If you can predict within 80% accuracy when the bonus round is coming. Why not bet min bet until you believe its about to come up then bet max? I cant imagine this wouldn't be a huge advantage.Quote: darkoz
The Lovely Outlaws are one.
Assuming you have never went x amount of spins without a bonus round lets say 300.
You could ramp your bet up as soon as you believe its "due" go from min bet to $1 at spin @ # 225 then $2 @ # $250 max @ $275
This would be the slot holy grail.
but even if you find a reason that doesn't work, you could just stalk people playing watch and one the leave and it's "due" you jump on.
NVM all this FP that's a wast of time concerning the bonus rounds at max bet are very valuable.
Quote: darkozHere is the second part of this story.
There are two methods of purchasing your Greyhound bus ticket for Atlantic City. The first is directly from the live teller window where the salesclerk will hand you a four-part serrated-edge linked-ticket printed on a heavy cardboard paper stock. You rip off each portion as you go. The departure, bus bonus for casino, return and an itinerary receipt.
You can also get all of these by purchasing your tickets at the kiosk via cash or credit card. The kiosk will print out each portion of the ticket on separate sheets of flimsy computer paper -- one side of each ticket with all the trip info printed and the other side left a shiny blank. It is this flimsy computer paper that interested an enterprising Mr. X in this hustle. The computer paper was nothing special and could be purchased at any Kinko's or Staples and the ink used to print out the info was, well, ink from a printer.
After scanning in a ticket and using photo-shop to change dates, he was pretty much off and running. He only needed to print out the bus bonus section of the ticket. He didn't care about riding the bus round trip for five hours of the day. He was going to make this enterprise a bit more profitable than that. He was simply going to go to each casino the bus arrived at, every half-hour and hand in his bus bonus. Since the greeter at all the CET properties walked every one inside the lobby to accept the bonus and hand passengers the free-play vouchers, he simply had to mosey on up to the queue and insinuate himself as if he too was a passenger disembarking from the bus.
But Mr. X wanted to not only make this extremely profitable, but also expose himself to as little danger as possible. So, he decided not to actually do this himself. After all, he was the head honcho and should not be in the line of fire. He was the magic man with the printing process. Instead, he convinced a bunch of homeless people to do the dirty work for him.
With every half-hour bus arrival at a CET property, up to 4 homeless people, that were decently presentable, would mosey on into the line and present their bogus bus bonus. They were so well printed that the greeter didn't even notice they were counterfeits and these people would walk off with the legitimate $25 free-play voucher. They would exit the casino where they would rendezvous with Mr. X who would pay them $5 for their work. At two buses an hour, these guys were making a decent ten dollar an hour wage and Mr. X was getting $200 in free-play an hour for very little investment or risk. And since these were good at both video poker and video blackjack, he managed a very decent return.
This hustle went seemingly unnoticed for most of the summer of 2013 but eventually someone saw that sales and redemption numbers were not matching. The bus bonus is not something reimbursed by Greyhound which is probably why it managed to go on for so long. Most likely, there is some accounting done for the number of Greyhound bus tickets sold within a certain time-frame and number of redeemed bus bonus vouchers. And the numbers were very incongruously not lining up.
Certain there was some type of counterfeiting scheme, the bus company instituted a new Greyhound image watermark on the back of all their computer printing paper from the kiosk. And indeed, this seemed to shut down the entire operation. The numbers began to fall back into place.
But Mr. X wasn't about to let a great opportunity go by and he was very enterprising. It took him about two months to perfectly match up the watermark and printing process for both sides of the computer paper. The paper was still the same, after all, it was only the watermark pre-printed with a certain panache from the manufacturer he had to duplicate and as most everyone knows, if it's man-made, it can be duplicated.
By November of 2013, he and his crew were back in business.
By mid-winter, Greyhound and the CET casinos were once again seeing their numbers not matching up. They decided they had to do what any law-abiding business would with counterfeiters. They called in the police. A sting was set-up where the casino security would keep an eagle's eye out for anyone slipping into the line from a newly arrived bus.
Sure enough, they saw the culprits and security sprung on them like jackals. While not everyone in the ring, (there were quite a few people who switched up when they would do the hustle by this time) nonetheless, the casino had some people to throw the book at. And they most certainly planned on making an example of these counterfeiters.
They were brought to the local precinct for booking. There a representative of the CET properties arrived to file the formal complaint and charges. The conversation with the authorities went something like this:
"They've been counterfeiting these. The bus bonus portions of the Greyhound tickets," said the casino representative.
"So, they arrive by bus? What about the actual tickets for Greyhound? You have a sample of those being counterfeited?"
"No, they don't counterfeit the tickets for riding. They don't even ride the bus," stated the casino rep, certain that NOT riding the bus made the case even more heinous.
"Well, if they aren't riding the bus, then they aren't stealing anything from the bus company. There is no theft of service from riding without a legit ticket."
"That's correct. The only thing they do is come up and get the free-play. Here is a voucher for $25. This is what they have been stealing."
The authorities examined the voucher. "This is worth $25 each? Cash?"
"No, it's not cash. It must be wagered in a slot machine. There is no way of knowing what the actual value is until played."
"So, it's basically a freebie, a complimentary that you hand out?"
Seeing where this was going, the casino rep was quick to point out, "Yes, but only qualified bus patrons are allowed to have it. Everyone else is stealing them when they acquire them."
"So, what is the stated value of the voucher?"
Now, most businesses that deal with tickets, coupons or vouchers like to protect themselves from possible scalpers. That is why coupons for a free hamburger at McDonald's might state the value of the coupon is 1/20th of a penny. Even though the free food that it buys is worth a lot more, a scalper technically cannot sell the coupon for more than what its worth.
CET was no different in this respect. But this was about to bite them on the ass.
The authorities turned over the free-play vouchers and saw quite clearly the statement printed, "This voucher has no cash value."
Everyone arrested was free to go. You cannot steal something with no value that is freely handed out.
And now, CET had a big problem on their hands. Instead of making an example of these arrested citizens, they had just shown how they could not be prosecuted. They were facing an empowered counterfeiting ring...one that was completely legal.
To be continued.
Pure sloth on the part of the casinos. Part of the greeter's job is to make sure the bonus is paid out, one or 2 at a time, only to those who exit from the bus.
Quote: AxelWolfSo this is a IGT multi line. If you can predict within 80% accuracy when the bonus round is coming. Why not bet min bet until you believe its about to come up then bet max? I cant imagine this wouldn't be a huge advantage.
Assuming you have never went x amount of spins without a bonus round lets say 300.
You could ramp your bet up as soon as you believe its "due" go from min bet to $1 at spin @ # 225 then $2 @ # $250 max @ $275
This would be the slot holy grail.
but even if you find a reason that doesn't work, you could just stalk people playing watch and one the leave and it's "due" you jump on.
NVM all this FP that's a wast of time concerning the bonus rounds at max bet are very valuable.
I have done that and won some money but as I stated, having a feel for when the bonus round is about to hit does not overcome HE so no, its not a holy grail.
The bonus round itself is not guaranteed to be big. On Lovely Outlaws I have won anywhere from $15 to $400 on max bet. So losing $300 to win $15 on the bonus round is not an advantage play.
I cannot predict when they will hit. Only they are close or due. There is no set number of spins when its guaranteed. I have a pretty good idea when they will not happen because the predictors on those machines aren't happening.
Stalking people doesn't work because you never know if they will leave while the machine is hot. What if the guy never gets up when you need it? I find that a stupid maneuver.
At any rate, you asked for the names of some machines. Why don't you go play them day in and day out for a few weeks and then relate your experience to mine. Otherwise, don't knock what you have not tried.
CET had to be careful now not to open themselves up to a lawsuit for imprisonment as nothing illegal was being done with the counterfeit bus tickets. On top of that, the tickets were not being redeemed by the same four people. It was obvious quite a few people were being employed now in the scheme since seeing the same faces over and over might have tipped off the greeters.
Since it was the kiosk printed tickets that were the disadvantage, the greeters began asking to see the entire tickets when presented with kiosk slips. Those people who could not present the return ticket and itinerary portion of their ticket were denied their bus bonus.
But this inconvenience only lasted a short time. Those were printed on the same computer paper and it wasn't long before Mr. X began supplying those as well. Since they were not to be used for any actual bus travel, there still was no theft or crime being committed.
Seeing that this was still not enough to curb the counterfeiters, CET asked the bus drivers to begin placing markers on the bus bonus portions of the tickets. On a daily rotating basis, the drivers would switch from placing a generic sticker on the bus bonus to stamping the word "Paid" on the bus bonus as people were boarding the bus. If you didn't have this stamp or sticker when you went to the greeter, they knew you had not boarded the bus in New York.
Luckily for Mr. X we live in a technological world. He started paying someone to ride the bus each morning to find out what the days marker would be. After boarding the bus, this confederate would take a snapshot of the marker and text message the picture to Mr. X. He now had over two hours to prepare his tickets to match before the first bus would arrive.
By the Fall of 2014, the hustle was still in full swing and CET was getting pretty annoyed at how obnoxious the whole thing was. They needed to nip this in the bus (pun intended).
In the end, it was good old due diligence, a combination of checks and balances and the tried and true method of trespassing individuals that seemed to end the entire hustle.
Bus drivers were asked to take head counts of their passengers for the greeter. Also, they were requested to scan passengers faces upon boarding and especially as they were disembarking and to watch as the free-play vouchers were being redeemed. If the bus driver was certain you were not on the bus they would state that to the greeter and that person would be denied their bus bonus. (This also worked to the advantage of a few people who accidentally got off the bus too early as I witnessed the driver vouching for the person having been on the bus).
The full tickets needed to be shown upon request and security would also keep a lookout for people sneaking into the line.
Eventually, faces were identified and those people were verbally trespassed. Reports were made of those verbal trespasses and when people returned, they were taken in and arrested for that in lieu of the actual counterfeiting.
And as it became less and less profitable and less and less people were walking away with the vouchers, it all came to an end and Mr. X seemingly disappeared like a wisp of smoke.
But perhaps the hustle will reappear. It was just two weeks ago that I overheard someone being denied their bus bonus by the greeter as I left Bally's. "You were not on THIS bus, I guarantee you, my friend," was what the greeter told the guy who finally gave up and left the casino with his head down.
Thus ends this 3rd Tale of the Hustling Wars
Many of you may surmise I was mister X. That is the furthest from the truth.
As many of you who read my posts know, I am proud of my hustles and will vociferously argue in their defense. Counterfeiting is not a hustle I would stoop low enough to perform.
I first became aware of this hustle in November of 2013 when an associate of mine who was involved lamented he had lost two months of work because of the Greyhound Watermark. However, his "guy" had figured out how to duplicate it and the team was back in business. It was he who told me he was being paid $5 per voucher.
Most passengers, I am sure, were oblivious to the goings-on but as I was aware of the hustle, it was painfully obvious when I saw it in action which was pretty much every time I came to AC by Greyhound in 2014.
I witnessed a group of these people one afternoon leave Bally's and meet someone on the street corner right outside where they handed him the vouchers. He nodded and I assume paid them. I also assume this was the Mister X although I could be wrong. There isn't much room for a middleman in a hustle with such a small edge.
I saw many of the countermeasures as they were enacted including the bus drivers shaking their heads at the greeter and stating loudly, "Not him. He wasn't on my bus." Some drivers took more offense at the hustle than CET, yelling at those people to get off their bus line, they don't play that.
Finally, it was a CET greeter who informed me of the arrests that had been made and how no charges could stick due to the nature of the free-play having no cash value. The actual conversation at the police precinct (and even if it happened there or over the phone) was my embellishment to relay what the CET greeter had told me.
It was CET greeters who informed me of the trespassing and final eradication of the problem.
I hope you enjoyed this latest escapade in the Hustling Wars.
Can you quote the sentence where I knocked it?Quote: darkozI have done that and won some money but as I stated, having a feel for when the bonus round is about to hit does not overcome HE so no, its not a holy grail.
The bonus round itself is not guaranteed to be big. On Lovely Outlaws I have won anywhere from $15 to $400 on max bet. So losing $300 to win $15 on the bonus round is not an advantage play.
I cannot predict when they will hit. Only they are close or due. There is no set number of spins when its guaranteed. I have a pretty good idea when they will not happen because the predictors on those machines aren't happening.
Stalking people doesn't work because you never know if they will leave while the machine is hot. What if the guy never gets up when you need it? I find that a stupid maneuver.
At any rate, you asked for the names of some machines. Why don't you go play them day in and day out for a few weeks and then relate your experience to mine. Otherwise, don't knock what you have not tried.
I'm sure someone can come up with some estimations on what having the ability to predict bonus rounds within 80% accuracy is worth. I'm willing to bet it's a huge advantage.
Yes losing $300 to win $15 every time isn't good, however what about the times you only lose $5 to win $400?
Either you can predict within 80% and its +EV, Or you can't predict it as you claim.
Perhaps a par sheet is available and we can figure out how many spins on average the bonus round comes up. It should also tell you what percentage the bonus round adds and what the overall machine percentage possibilities are available.
Quote: AxelWolfCan you quote the sentence where I knocked it?
I'm sure someone can come up with some estimations on what having the ability to predict bonus rounds within 80% accuracy is worth. I'm willing to bet it's a huge advantage.
Yes losing $300 to win $15 every time isn't good, however what about the times you only lose $5 to win $400?
Either you can predict within 80% and its +EV, Or you can't predict it as you claim.
Perhaps a par sheet is available and we can figure out how many spins on average the bonus round comes up. It should also tell you what percentage the bonus round adds and what the overall machine percentage possibilities are available.
It would not be possible to lose just $5.
Let me make it clear. I am not stating that from the LAST time you had a bonus round, you now have a certain number of spins to go. It might be 100 spins or 1000 spins. I'm just stating that when you begin to see the bonus round symbols come down with a certain frequency that the machine is "more likely" to hit than when you don't see that. And not "Guaranteed", just more likely. There seems to be some confusion with that. The 20% of the time when it doesn't work could easily wipe out any gains you made the other 80% of the time. Like I said, I have not figured out how to overcome the HE.
On those games where I find it "works", Its most likely the RNG is cycling through the bonus symbols heavier at certain times and therefore you are more likely to get all three upon a spin. Again, there are 20% of the time when the symbols keep coming down and you don't get the bonus round. Trust me, don't discount the losses you can incur on that 20%.
Quote: darkozIt would not be possible to lose just $5.
Let me make it clear. I am not stating that from the LAST time you had a bonus round, you now have a certain number of spins to go. It might be 100 spins or 1000 spins. I'm just stating that when you begin to see the bonus round symbols come down with a certain frequency that the machine is "more likely" to hit than when you don't see that. And not "Guaranteed", just more likely. There seems to be some confusion with that. The 20% of the time when it doesn't work could easily wipe out any gains you made the other 80% of the time. Like I said, I have not figured out how to overcome the HE.
On those games where I find it "works", Its most likely the RNG is cycling through the bonus symbols heavier at certain times and therefore you are more likely to get all three upon a spin. Again, there are 20% of the time when the symbols keep coming down and you don't get the bonus round. Trust me, don't discount the losses you can incur on that 20%.
This is exactly what slot machine makers want suckers to think so they keep playing, lol...
Quote: sc15This is exactly what slot machine makers want suckers to think so they keep playing, lol...
Which part is that? The part where I state you still cannot overcome the HE?
I can think of 3 or 4 ways CET could have shot this dead in the tracks. I mean, it's really sad that they couldn't figure any of these out, and clearly I'm not going to share them to give anyone ideas.
It doesn't matter how you determine it. number of spins or because you start to notice bonus rounds symbols are showing up more frequently.Quote: darkozIt would not be possible to lose just $5.
Let me make it clear. I am not stating that from the LAST time you had a bonus round, you now have a certain number of spins to go. It might be 100 spins or 1000 spins. I'm just stating that when you begin to see the bonus round symbols come down with a certain frequency that the machine is "more likely" to hit than when you don't see that. And not "Guaranteed", just more likely. There seems to be some confusion with that. The 20% of the time when it doesn't work could easily wipe out any gains you made the other 80% of the time. Like I said, I have not figured out how to overcome the HE.
On those games where I find it "works", Its most likely the RNG is cycling through the bonus symbols heavier at certain times and therefore you are more likely to get all three upon a spin. Again, there are 20% of the time when the symbols keep coming down and you don't get the bonus round. Trust me, don't discount the losses you can incur on that 20%.
If you can tell when the bonus rounds are "due" within 80%>> it's an advantage.<<,
Personally what I think you're experiencing is normal. you notice that you had many bonus symbols come up and during that time you received a bonus round.
Of course you did purely because you had so many shots at it. its more likely that it had to happen at that time because you had so many chances. It's purely luck that they all bunched up. It's selective memory.
Quote: RomesFun, interesting read darkoz... Do you have links to the 1st and 2nd Tale of the Hustling Wars? =p
I can think of 3 or 4 ways CET could have shot this dead in the tracks. I mean, it's really sad that they couldn't figure any of these out, and clearly I'm not going to share them to give anyone ideas.
I mean, there's a lot of obvious ways, but all of them have some kind of downside. Remember, they don't want to inconvenience legitimate customers, and they're probably cheap too. Anything that involves additional staff = more costs.
For example:
Putting a sticker with a hologram on the voucher. Makes it much harder to counterfeit, but then they have to get the stickers printed, and get the bus company to put them on all the tickets.
Handing out the vouchers as people are getting off the bus, so it's impossible to get one unless you were actually on the bus. This would make unboarding the bus an extremely slow process, and would piss off bus customers who aren't getting the voucher.
Making the vouchers specific to an account, so that nobody can redeem the voucher except the person who owns the player card it was issued for. This would involve all kinds of logistics problems since their system doesn't currently support doing it this way. Sure, the smart thing to do is make people go to the player's club desk to redeem the coupon and have the play added to their player's card (like other casinos do), but CET doesn't want to invest in upgrading the system to do that.
Quote: darkozHere is the second part of this story.
There are two methods of purchasing your Greyhound bus ticket for Atlantic City. The first is directly from the live teller window where the salesclerk will hand you a four-part serrated-edge linked-ticket printed on a heavy cardboard paper stock. You rip off each portion as you go. The departure, bus bonus for casino, return and an itinerary receipt.
You can also get all of these by purchasing your tickets at the kiosk via cash or credit card. The kiosk will print out each portion of the ticket on separate sheets of flimsy computer paper -- one side of each ticket with all the trip info printed and the other side left a shiny blank. It is this flimsy computer paper that interested an enterprising Mr. X in this hustle. The computer paper was nothing special and could be purchased at any Kinko's or Staples and the ink used to print out the info was, well, ink from a printer.
After scanning in a ticket and using photo-shop to change dates, he was pretty much off and running. He only needed to print out the bus bonus section of the ticket. He didn't care about riding the bus round trip for five hours of the day. He was going to make this enterprise a bit more profitable than that. He was simply going to go to each casino the bus arrived at, every half-hour and hand in his bus bonus. Since the greeter at all the CET properties walked every one inside the lobby to accept the bonus and hand passengers the free-play vouchers, he simply had to mosey on up to the queue and insinuate himself as if he too was a passenger disembarking from the bus.
But Mr. X wanted to not only make this extremely profitable, but also expose himself to as little danger as possible. So, he decided not to actually do this himself. After all, he was the head honcho and should not be in the line of fire. He was the magic man with the printing process. Instead, he convinced a bunch of homeless people to do the dirty work for him.
With every half-hour bus arrival at a CET property, up to 4 homeless people, that were decently presentable, would mosey on into the line and present their bogus bus bonus. They were so well printed that the greeter didn't even notice they were counterfeits and these people would walk off with the legitimate $25 free-play voucher. They would exit the casino where they would rendezvous with Mr. X who would pay them $5 for their work. At two buses an hour, these guys were making a decent ten dollar an hour wage and Mr. X was getting $200 in free-play an hour for very little investment or risk. And since these were good at both video poker and video blackjack, he managed a very decent return.
This hustle went seemingly unnoticed for most of the summer of 2013 but eventually someone saw that sales and redemption numbers were not matching. The bus bonus is not something reimbursed by Greyhound which is probably why it managed to go on for so long. Most likely, there is some accounting done for the number of Greyhound bus tickets sold within a certain time-frame and number of redeemed bus bonus vouchers. And the numbers were very incongruously not lining up.
Certain there was some type of counterfeiting scheme, the bus company instituted a new Greyhound image watermark on the back of all their computer printing paper from the kiosk. And indeed, this seemed to shut down the entire operation. The numbers began to fall back into place.
But Mr. X wasn't about to let a great opportunity go by and he was very enterprising. It took him about two months to perfectly match up the watermark and printing process for both sides of the computer paper. The paper was still the same, after all, it was only the watermark pre-printed with a certain panache from the manufacturer he had to duplicate and as most everyone knows, if it's man-made, it can be duplicated.
By November of 2013, he and his crew were back in business.
By mid-winter, Greyhound and the CET casinos were once again seeing their numbers not matching up. They decided they had to do what any law-abiding business would with counterfeiters. They called in the police. A sting was set-up where the casino security would keep an eagle's eye out for anyone slipping into the line from a newly arrived bus.
Sure enough, they saw the culprits and security sprung on them like jackals. While not everyone in the ring, (there were quite a few people who switched up when they would do the hustle by this time) nonetheless, the casino had some people to throw the book at. And they most certainly planned on making an example of these counterfeiters.
They were brought to the local precinct for booking. There a representative of the CET properties arrived to file the formal complaint and charges. The conversation with the authorities went something like this:
"They've been counterfeiting these. The bus bonus portions of the Greyhound tickets," said the casino representative.
"So, they arrive by bus? What about the actual tickets for Greyhound? You have a sample of those being counterfeited?"
"No, they don't counterfeit the tickets for riding. They don't even ride the bus," stated the casino rep, certain that NOT riding the bus made the case even more heinous.
"Well, if they aren't riding the bus, then they aren't stealing anything from the bus company. There is no theft of service from riding without a legit ticket."
"That's correct. The only thing they do is come up and get the free-play. Here is a voucher for $25. This is what they have been stealing."
The authorities examined the voucher. "This is worth $25 each? Cash?"
"No, it's not cash. It must be wagered in a slot machine. There is no way of knowing what the actual value is until played."
"So, it's basically a freebie, a complimentary that you hand out?"
Seeing where this was going, the casino rep was quick to point out, "Yes, but only qualified bus patrons are allowed to have it. Everyone else is stealing them when they acquire them."
"So, what is the stated value of the voucher?"
Now, most businesses that deal with tickets, coupons or vouchers like to protect themselves from possible scalpers. That is why coupons for a free hamburger at McDonald's might state the value of the coupon is 1/20th of a penny. Even though the free food that it buys is worth a lot more, a scalper technically cannot sell the coupon for more than what its worth.
CET was no different in this respect. But this was about to bite them on the ass.
The authorities turned over the free-play vouchers and saw quite clearly the statement printed, "This voucher has no cash value."
Everyone arrested was free to go. You cannot steal something with no value that is freely handed out.
And now, CET had a big problem on their hands. Instead of making an example of these arrested citizens, they had just shown how they could not be prosecuted. They were facing an empowered counterfeiting ring...one that was completely legal.
To be continued.
Great story, Darkoz. If you ever write a book I'll probably buy it (but I found 200 Proof Blackjack in the library. If your book is there I'm going to just check it out).
It does seem to me that individuals using the counterfeit vouchers should be charged with a crime. They were handed out freely but were only supposed to be for legitimate bus passengers. So if the vouchers said they were worth 1/20th of a cent then the counterfeiter's would be guilty of a crime but because they had no value imprinted on them it's okay to use counterfeit vouchers? I seems that knowingly using a counterfeit voucher should be illegal.
But then again it is the Evil Empire.
So let's say you are playing however many spins maybe 100 mabey 1000 all of a sudden you notice Bonus symbols are showing up (or whatever indications you use) at that point you think you know within 80% accuracy that the bonus round is coming. At this point on average you should get into the bonus round 80% faster than the average.Quote: darkoz
On those games where I find it "works", Its most likely the RNG is cycling through the bonus symbols heavier at certain times and therefore you are more likely to get all three upon a spin. Again, there are 20% of the time when the symbols keep coming down and you don't get the bonus round. Trust me, don't discount the losses you can incur on that 20%.
For arguments sake lets assume normally it takes 400 spins on average(that can be determined). As soon as you notice the indications its coming, you should on average be able to predict its coming within 80 spins. I realize it might be within 10 spins or 300 spins however it should come up 80% faster than normal on average. This would be easy to prove.
You may not believe it to be an advantage but I do. If you can prove within my satisfaction that you can predict when a bonus round is coming/due above 79% of the normal expectation on average. Ill give you 1k for the information.
Quote: AxelWolfYou may not believe it to be an advantage but I do. If you can prove within my satisfaction that you can predict when a bonus round is coming/due above 79% of the normal expectation on average. Ill give you 1k for the information.
You worded that perfectly. One of his earlier posts said he could determine within 10 to 50 spins when it would come up. For $1000 I will show you slots where the bonus round will come up 80% of the time before 50 spins. I like you, I will even give you a discount, five slots for $3k.
Yea and that offer excludes any banking or accumulator slots or a obvious situation like a guarantee bonus slot, something like a must hit that triggers a bonus round. A no weasel clause is attached. it's obvious what i'm after regarding this offer.Quote: DRichYou worded that perfectly. One of his earlier posts said he could determine within 10 to 50 spins when it would come up. For $1000 I will show you slots where the bonus round will come up 80% of the time before 50 spins. I like you, I will even give you a discount, five slots for $3k.
Quote: AxelWolfYea and that offer excludes any banking or accumulator slots or a obvious situation like a guarantee bonus slot, something like a must hit that triggers a bonus round. A no weasel clause is attached. it's obvious what i'm after regarding this offer.
Well, damn! and my plan was to go find a bank of those "bonus every 6 minutes or less" slots!
Like everybody else said it is Voodoo.
My offer of 1k stands just like what Axel says,
"If you can prove within my satisfaction that you can predict when a bonus round is coming/due above 79% of the normal expectation on average. Ill give you 1k for the information. "
The other part of your claim I think requires more explanation,
"I tell people I win at the casino almost every time I play (using advantage plays of course) and almost no one ever believes me. Yet, my rent is paid, my bills are paid, my vacations are paid from gambling. I haven't worked a day in years except gambling."
How do you make so much money hustling these $25 coupon and work with a team of homeless people who has to be paid.
Quote: darkozI have not ridden an Asian casino bus in almost two years
Oddly specific. I like it.
At the risk of identifying myself, I like the phrase "I have never served time in a federal penitentiary."
That kind of error and the subsequent defending of the error makes me call into question almost everything else he has posted.
"darkoz portrays himself as this in-the-know professional gambler, someone who knows every angle"Quote: sodawaterIt's kind of weird that darkoz portrays himself as this in-the-know professional gambler, someone who knows every angle, but then slips up and posts one of the oldest misconceptions about slot machines.
That kind of error and the subsequent defending of the error makes me call into question almost everything else he has posted.
I didn't get that impression. I got the impression he stumbled on to something and exploited it. It seems he's more interested in being an AP writer than actually APing.
He probably thinks for the most part his APing opportunities are dwindling.
There's no reason to give so many details about this stuff if you're interested in APing full time because such details help ensure it's less likely to happen again.
This time it may have only been worth a few bucks per card, but imagine if it was worth $25 a card.
Perhaps he will tell us he has something much better and so it's all good.
As HH pointed out, no one is bashing hit stories just the slot prediction aspect.Quote: FroggerWhat's wrong with you people? Darkoz gives us some interesting history and a good read and you guys get on him? Come on.
If he understood more about AP he would realize the potential value of such a claim.
If this predictions work on 2 or 3 machines that he's found already, imagine all the untested machines out there, certainly he didn't find the only ones doing this.
Even if by some small chance the machines he's found are not +EV if he can truly do what he's clamming there's got to be hundreds that are worth a fortune.
We have a member here that actually designs slots and AP's If this were possible I have to Imagine he has far more access, skill and knowledge and his predictions would be far more accurate. As far as I know he's not out breaking the bank on slots. Perhaps we need to put a tail on him.
Lets see. I was asked for a couple of slots where I can predict the bonus round. I gave them. Now everyone wants me to prove it. Not sure how I am supposed to do that except to videotape thousands of pulls to show it and I'm not doing that.
Why thousands? Because if I just videotape me predicting it once successfully, I will be accused of getting lucky and using selective videotaping.
And I'm not going to spend my time videotaping thousands of pulls.
BTW, I said there is still no advantage play to being able to predict when the bonus round is coming (and I stated I can only give a decent estimate, it's not a dead-on guess and can be wrong 20% of the time). You don't know how much that round is going to be worth. It is a very good play if you are using free-play and you have an advantage already.
Funny, I don't claim to be able to overcome HA or HE and yet everyone still believes I am making some fantastic claim. I've mentioned some of the games. Go play them tens of thousands of times and you will hopefully begin to predict like I can.
I stated I had nothing to do with the counterfeiting scheme and I hold to that. I was doing small time hustles like the card flipping and riding the busses but that was two years ago. I've moved onto much bigger and better things.
Quote: darkoz
BTW, I said there is still no advantage play to being able to predict when the bonus round is coming (and I stated I can only give a decent estimate, it's not a dead-on guess and can be wrong 20% of the time). You don't know how much that round is going to be worth. It is a very good play if you are using free-play and you have an advantage already.
Funny, I don't claim to be able to overcome HA or HE and yet everyone still believes I am making some fantastic claim. I've mentioned some of the games. Go play them tens of thousands of times and you will hopefully begin to predict like I can.
This is not how slot machines work. You are under a very common misconception that you can predict patterns where there are none.
Quote: sodawaterThis is not how slot machines work. You are under a very common misconception that you can predict patterns where there are none.
The only problem with that statement is I see the patterns and when I say to myself a bonus round is coming I get it right 80% of the time. So should I ignore what I see and predict because its a common misconception?
Even if its a misconception I plan on using it since, guess what, I'm right 80% of the time.
Quote: darkozThe only problem with that statement is I see the patterns and when I say to myself a bonus round is coming I get it right 80% of the time. So should I ignore what I see and predict because its a common misconception?
Even if its a misconception I plan on using it since, guess what, I'm right 80% of the time.
Wow, it is amazing you are right 80% of the time. That is such a nice round number.
This is a simple example of confirmation bias. You remember the times you were right, and forget the times you were wrong. This happens every day in almost every area of human existence. There is no shame in falling for it.
The only way to be sure you can predict the bonus round is to set a strict standard of what you are trying to predict, when you expect it will come, and keep detailed records. As you collect more and more records, your confidence in your prediction ability will grow.
Failing that, it's simply confirmation bias, nothing more, nothing less.
