Long USA Today article about the decline of A.C.
Main point is that A.C. is losing business to "Walmarts with slot machines" that are closer and more convenient.
The article includes a great map that shows how Atlantic City has become literally surrounded by competition in recent years.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/06/10/atlantic-city-gambling-competition/2408065/
My reaction to the core market of AC is although the closest patrons may come more often, the people from outside the core market have to travel longer and will come prepared to spend more to make the trip worthwhile. People in Ohio and CT should not be given up on. I think if they come, they'll like the total experience of gambling in AC and will return. It's new to them, it's big, slot offerings are diverse, it's fun stumbling on the boardwalk playing in all the casinos.
Casino/hotel wise, the hotels are getting to have a reputation of being unsafe from the employees breaking into rooms stealing and stealing from the safes. Some have said there aren't even cameras in the hallways and this doesn't bode well once someone tells you their BR, Ipad or jewelery was stolen. Staff and security has to step on big time on this.
Once you leave the boardwalk, it's depressing seeing all the pawnshops and gold stores. Plus, they operate as if owned by the local mob at those gold places, which leaves a bad taste in down on their luck tourists and takes away from revenue in the casino. Then you see mobile HIV testing and people think it's rampant there. The businesses off the boardwalk have not been keeping up their shops and all you see is desperation and fear on the people there. Something has to be done. Street walking is also visible at night and people don't like seeing transvestites trying to offer sex acts to people walking on the street.
They shouldn't give up on much they're doing, because they need all the business they can get.
Quote: sodawaterWell regardless of whether or not the same companies are stealing market share for themselves, it still is not good for NJ that AC is losing revenue to PA, MD, DE, and NY.
It's my first reaction, because they had such a head start, how can they not be prepared to deal with this. I want to believe their answer is to go bigger and not smaller, because it will kill them. All the people going there like so many different things and once they start feeling getting less value there, they might not come back.
Quote: HunterhillIt might be new to the Ohio people but not to CT. The first CT casino opened in 92 and Mohegan in 96 and they are not what you would call Wal-Marts with slots.
I refer to Atlantic City casinos being different and new, not casinos in general. In my circles of Western PA, NE Ohio, WV, you don't hear AC mentioned much in casino talk. We're under marketed. I can take a GH Lucky Streak from Pittsburgh for $88 advance purchase with FP, but if I come from Ohio 60 miles away, I pay $102, ride the same exact buses to AC from Pittsburgh and get $0 FP.
There are some people who take junkets from around here, but they're not advertised locally. It's just return customers and word of mouth additions, which is fine, but new people aren't brought in as much as they can be.
I hate all casinos overcharging cigarettes, but AC does it big time charging 50% more than what is paid at the off casino stores. For just $2-3 less, it would provide good will. New Yorkers can think it's great not to be respected and Ohioans can think it's just a little expensive, but about the same or a bit cheaper than sold at their casinos. I think gouging smokers is very short sided and a good way to get them to leave the casino.
Quote: sodawaterYeah, the article says that the CT casinos are too far away to really be hurting AC. AC is getting hurt by the PA, DE, NY, and MD casinos specifically.
If the people go to AC from Ohio, they aren't going to say, lets drive 5 hours instead of 7 so we can feel like we're held prisoner at Sands, Parx or Sugarhouse. They're saying lets go all the way to AC, stay 3 days and gamble the whole time. Lets bring more money than we would too since we've travelled so far, etc. If they can't they aren't coming, I can say from experience.
Judging by the map it appears that the article is probably talking about AC's local competition, but if AC were as easily accessible to tourists as Las Vegas is, it might not be suffering so much from the "diet casinos" in neighboring states.
ACY is one of the three federal airports. It is more than real enough. It is also the base for the planes that secure the No. 1 terrorism target in the nation. And it is also the training center for the TSA.Quote: JBSurely part of AC's problem has to be the lack of a real airport. At least with Vegas you can fly directly into the city and be at your hotel minutes later.
Currently only one percent (!!) of AC's casino customers arrive by air!
Quote: sodawaterYou are right, JB. The article cites AC's lack of investment in its airport as one of the major problems.
Currently only one percent (!!) of AC's casino customers arrive by air!
It's Spirit Air which makes it even worse. This is definitely a HUGE problem. People need to fly to Philly and find a way to AC.
Even in nearby central Jersey counties like Middlesex, Monmouth and Ocean, regularly scheduled public buses to AC have basically disappeared, leaving much of that traffic to charities, retirement communities and senior centers.Quote: onenickelmiracleI refer to Atlantic City casinos being different and new, not casinos in general. In my circles of Western PA, NE Ohio, WV, you don't hear AC mentioned much in casino talk. We're under marketed. I can take a GH Lucky Streak from Pittsburgh for $88 advance purchase with FP, but if I come from Ohio 60 miles away, I pay $102, ride the same exact buses to AC from Pittsburgh and get $0 FP. There are some people who take junkets from around here, but they're not advertised locally. It's just return customers and word of mouth additions, which is fine, but new people aren't brought in as much as they can be.
Quote: SanchoPanzaEven in nearby central Jersey counties like Middlesex, Monmouth and Ocean, regularly scheduled public buses to AC have basically disappeared, leaving much of that traffic to charities, retirement communities and senior centers.
Control freaks who think they are so powerful, they can ignore the facilities built to handle the buses like no other casinos in the world.
Almost every bus leaving a casino is a gain for the casino, but it's not a cash cow, so they undervalue the intangibles they receive with them.
Reno suffered from California's Indian casinos that are closer and "good enough" making the extra driving time and effort to go all the way to "The Real Thing" in Reno needless. Sure there are a few loyal die hards who really think that final destination is somehow "worth it" but in reality it probably is not.
Many of the competitors are growing with the Indian casinos becoming more and more "vegas like"... adding hotels and spas and near naked dealers. No longer are the "Reno Alternatives" merely "Walmarts with Slots". So I see no reason why the Atlantic City Alternatives should remain Walmarts with Slots.
The competition does not have to be "Walmarts with slots" ... the competition is learning to attract traffic rather than just bask in the sun while enjoying the traffic that they are bleeding off from Atlantic City. Going all the way to the "Boardwalk" is great, but in reality it does mean decay and lack of safety in an older property without proper cameras or proper security measures. Atlantic City may "sound better" than some of those interim destinations but to those who actually make the trip, those interim destinations are certainly good enough and are getting better all the time.
The "Vegas Experience" is now available all over the country. Atlantic City used to be a major bleed off, now its far less of one. All those interim casinos are learning. Atlantic City may soon become more of a memory phrase than anything else. The reality is that all those alternative destinations are "good enough and getting better".
I agree. The main problem with AC is that it lacks a real airport. The closest real airport is Philadelphia and that's a solid 45 min - 1 hour drive. Newark is the next closest and it's a much longer haul.
The next biggest problem is that they don't understand customer service. They need to fire most of the people working within the casinos and hire people from out west.
Quote: onenickelmiracle
My reaction to the core market of AC is although the closest patrons may come more often, the people from outside the core market have to travel longer and will come prepared to spend more to make the trip worthwhile. People in Ohio and CT should not be given up on. I think if they come, they'll like the total experience of gambling in AC and will return. It's new to them, it's big, slot offerings are diverse, it's fun stumbling on the boardwalk playing in all the casinos.
What "total experience" is this? True AC has the Boardwalk Effect where you can walk from one joint to the next, but that is about it. I still remember the disappointed look on the face of the guy just moved to NYC from IN when we drove in. Guy had never seen the ocean in his life and was all excited. But then he saw the ghetto that the area outside the casinos was.
As to inside the casinos, what do they really offer? Maybe a show on the weekends, but the other joints have that. There is no game they have there that is special (eg: sports betting in NV) and rules for BJ are better in PA.
Anyone who lived in PA for years wondered why the state let AC take all that money all those years, and the same people suspected AC would become a ghost-town after PA legalized gaming. They had 30 years to make it Vegas-east, build more into the resort experience. Instead they were happy to get day-tripper tour bus crowds of seniors feeding slots. Sorry if I don't shed a tear.
The problem with throwing money directly at the rest of AC from the casino revenue won't do anything. There are ways to gentify a community and one can look at Harlem or parts of Vancouver for that. The problem with AC is that it's a fairly small community of 40,000, its poor have nowhere to go, and the desirable middle class do not want the shadows of the casinos to be their eastern skyline when they wake up in the morning. Look around the nation at areas just around casinos and you see lower class homes nearby with higher criminal activity. Therefore, the cheapest homes in the region will be closest to the casinos which is the least desirable place to be in the region: you get the inevitable rows of pawn shops, the sex trade, the drug trade all next to the casinos because its patrons attract that element. Nobody wants to live close to that. To bring back desirable residents, you've got to police the hell out of the area, build up very attractive properties, and remove the casinos. You have to be very careful with zoning and not allow residential zoning within a 1/2 mile or so from the casions and fill that area up with a buffer zone of light industrial and commercial activities. That ain't going to happen as the area near the ocean is too desirable and there is not enough attraction for commerce to fill the buffer zone (location, no railway, no viable airport).
So what AC has begun to do instead is expand the "tourist zone" which is now well funded by the AC casinos through parking revenue and a tax on gaming revenue to include the areas of the main corridor coming into AC and the Atlantic street corridor. For people coming into AC, (like LV), the goal would be to be able to take the AC Expressway, have their stoplight (on Atlantic Street) and the trip along Atlantic Street to the casino to be a pleasant experience.
Quote: boymimboAZ is essentially correct.
Never thought I would hear that! :-)
Quote:The problem with throwing money directly at the rest of AC from the casino revenue won't do anything. There are ways to gentify a community and one can look at Harlem or parts of Vancouver for that. The problem with AC is that it's a fairly small community of 40,000, its poor have nowhere to go, and the desirable middle class do not want the shadows of the casinos to be their eastern skyline when they wake up in the morning. Look around the nation at areas just around casinos and you see lower class homes nearby with higher criminal activity. Therefore, the cheapest homes in the region will be closest to the casinos which is the least desirable place to be in the region: you get the inevitable rows of pawn shops, the sex trade, the drug trade all next to the casinos because its patrons attract that element. Nobody wants to live close to that. To bring back desirable residents, you've got to police the hell out of the area, build up very attractive properties, and remove the casinos. You have to be very careful with zoning and not allow residential zoning within a 1/2 mile or so from the casions and fill that area up with a buffer zone of light industrial and commercial activities. That ain't going to happen as the area near the ocean is too desirable and there is not enough attraction for commerce to fill the buffer zone (location, no railway, no viable airport).
Seems true for in-city joints. Out-in-the-country places (eg: Salamanca) have not as much problem of course. What should work is how PIT has done it with Rivers Casino. Nicely built property in an "entertainment zone" of sorts with football and baseball venues close by. There are a few high-end condos and some higher density office space. Within 10 blocks it is great though some people don't like it. Further out is where the lower-income housing starts. But that is kind of kept away by a "moat" in the form of a highway. AC can't do this, but clearly they need something else to act as a co-anchor of sorts to the community.
EWR is one of the busiest and most chaotic airports in the U.S. And it goes morning, noon and night. In contrast to, say, JFK, which is mostly afternoon and early evening traffic, as JetBlue was smart enough to take advantage of.Quote: KeyserThe closest real airport is Philadelphia and that's a solid 45 min - 1 hour drive. Newark is the next closest and it's a much longer haul.
Not true.Quote: sodawaterYeah, the article says that the CT casinos are too far away to really be hurting AC. AC is getting hurt by the PA, DE, NY, and MD casinos specifically.
Most NJ residents (myself included) live in the north east corner - bordering NYC. From there it's a coin toss whether its closer / easier to go to CT vs AC.
CT has been hurting AC since day 1, but AC has been slow to react.
All valid points, but meaningless to a tourist.Quote: SanchoPanzaACY is one of the three federal airports. It is more than real enough. It is also the base for the planes that secure the No. 1 terrorism target in the nation. And it is also the training center for the TSA.
ACY has two big problems:
1. A lack of commercial air travel. (One airline with just a handful of daily flights does not cut it.)
2. It is far from the city it serves, with no easy way to get to the city.
NJ's problem is that it is the only state that has casinos where the casinos are located in one city. Now, rather than give up on AC and add casinos elsewhere, the state is allowing much of the gambling dollar to go to other states.
If they took all the casinos in PA and put them in one city, that would be a fair comparison. Let's say Pittsburgh. I doubt the people in the Philly area could travel there when AC is closer.
It will never be a fair comparison until the Governor lifts the ban on only allowing casino gambling in AC.
If the Governor of NJ would allow gambling in other NJ locations like the Meadowlands or Monmouth Park, we could compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.
I can see the conference center as being a big deal, but a Bass Pro Shop? Really?Quote: USA TodayJust two major developments are on the city's horizon. One is a conference center at Harrah's, underwritten in part by state support and tax credits. The other is a Bass Pro Shop.
That is correct. Don't shed any tears. They were not able to stop squabbling over State Revenue and City Infrastructure expenditures. It was mainly several decades of swallowing the immediate revenue while letting the city deteriorate. Now they have extreme competition and very little to compete with that sets them apart from the larger, closer, cleaner, safer, newer, different, etc. casinos.Quote: AZDuffmanThey had 30 years to make it Vegas-east, build more into the resort experience. Instead they were happy to get day-tripper tour bus crowds of seniors feeding slots. Sorry if I don't shed a tear.
So go to Atlantic City, sit in a dingy, dowdy hotel that is unsafe, write your article about missed opportunities and on the way back... stop in one of the newer, brighter and safer casinos and have some fun.
Quote: sodawater:(
Main point is that A.C. is losing business to "Walmarts with slot machines" that are closer and more convenient.
The article includes a great map that shows how Atlantic City has become literally surrounded by competition in recent years.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/06/10/atlantic-city-gambling-competition/2408065/
And that doesn't even have Twin River, Newport Grand, or the New York racinos.
Quote: chickenmanThe Grand fronton just asked for "temporary relief" (can you say bailout?) by means of a higher take. Table games open next week at Twin River which should be the death knell of the Grand and certainly grab much action from Foxwoods/Mohegan by attracting patrons in eastern Mass. Figure three years and Mass opens its casinos and another shift will take place.
Mohegan Sun continues to be the front runner for central Massachusetts. They've just added a second hotel and a water park to their plans.
As far as destinations go, ACY will never, ever have the air traffic to support it. The wonderful thing about Las Vegas is Southwest. You can take a direct flight from anywhere in the US to Las Vegas on Southwest pretty much, and it they don't serve it, another airline will. Because ACY is in the middle of a corridor with a bunch of other big and overcrowded airports (EWR, LGA, PHL, JFK, BOS, DCA, BWI) adding flights there will be a pain. The best you could hope for is a regional connector but with the hubs being so close why bother. Even if they got in on the act now, most people would rather fly 4 hours to LAS over an hour hop (still a flight) to shitty ACY.
Or visit that. Even on a day trip.Quote: boymimboYou get the inevitable rows of pawn shops, the sex trade, the drug trade all next to the casinos because its patrons attract that element. Nobody wants to live close to that.
The last move is a little hard to do, but it may occur naturally. The first move was promised by Christie a couple of years ago, when he formed the tourism district and promised state troopers. Except for VIP visits, nobody has ever reported seeing any state troopers at work in the so-called BS of a "tourism district."Quote: boymimboTo bring back desirable residents, you've got to police the hell out of the area, build up very attractive properties, and remove the casinos.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_v9-OARrVlLU/Sps-Z5HBRxI/AAAAAAAAAvI/M798-31LDmk/s400/02cadff890765720_landing.jpg&imgrefurl=http://odd-facts.blogspot.com/2009/09/diving-horses-of-atlantic-city.html&h=314&w=400&sz=21&tbnid=x4pSkrXHhzOm7M:&tbnh=103&tbnw=131&zoom=1&usg=__MjiZh1YGKwBUqrsHPNE6XZxnL3c=&docid=dw06EuevibUiBM&sa=X&ei=8JO3UeyGM4LBywHinICgDg&ved=0CJoBEPUBMAw&dur=6703
The thing that jumped out at me from the article is one simple fact. 2005 gaming revenue in AC 5.9B, which was their best year ever. 2012 gaming revenue, 3.1B. 2012 PA gaming revenue 3.2B...so lets assume for a minute that most of that PA money went to NJ, over simplification I know, but bear with me. They'd be at right around 6B which would make everyone thrilled again. So for all the blah blah blah, about all the issues AC has, and they are valid concerns for the most part. The biggest issue by far, is the massive sucking sound of PA gambling money leaving NJ. Now obviously some of that is from western PA which probably wouldn't effect AC that much, and NY, DE, CT, and now MD. are hurting them some too. But it's the real close PA stuff that's just killing them. No Bass Pro Shop is going to fix that.
Quote: vendman1Love the diving horse picture Buzz....but seriously.
The thing that jumped out at me from the article is one simple fact. 2005 gaming revenue in AC 5.9B, which was their best year ever. 2012 gaming revenue, 3.1B. 2012 PA gaming revenue 3.2B...so lets assume for a minute that most of that PA money went to NJ, over simplification I know, but bear with me. They'd be at right around 6B which would make everyone thrilled again. So for all the blah blah blah, about all the issues AC has, and they are valid concerns for the most part. The biggest issue by far, is the massive sucking sound of PA gambling money leaving NJ. Now obviously some of that is from western PA which probably wouldn't effect AC that much, and NY, DE, CT, and now MD. are hurting them some too. But it's the real close PA stuff that's just killing them. No Bass Pro Shop is going to fix that.
I agree PA gaming really has hurt AC, among other things. If you look at the map in this thread, AC was a wonderful destination for gaming if all other locations were forbidden from gaming! Former Gov. Rendell was a genius by pushing legal gaming in PA with their gigantic tax rate for slots. New Jersey gets a pathetic amount of taxes in comparison. Also the recent legalization of Maryland gaming (with even a higher slot tax rate than PA!!!) has significantly hurt AC as well.
Quote: 1BBTwin River in Rhode Island will open their table games earlier than expected. The soft opening is this Friday and the grand opening to the public is June 19th. I'm on it and have already seen the tables.
You know what the limits are? Because if they've got $5 blackjack, even with lousy rules, I might check them out... then again, even those virtual tables are $10, so I doubt it.
(I'd say "or craps," but I swung by a week or two ago, and I didn't see anything that could be a craps table.)
Its like that real estate developer's sign next to a busy freeway "If you lived here, you would be home by now"... and all those drivers stuck in traffic jams read the sign and start to think about it.
Pennsylvania drives a good deal of gamblers and revenue away from Atlantic City, just as Atlantic City drove gamblers and revenue away from Las Vegas. People not only want their vice they want it nearer to them. Maybe not right next door but close by.
Quote: 24BingoYou know what the limits are? Because if they've got $5 blackjack, even with lousy rules, I might check them out... then again, even those virtual tables are $10, so I doubt it.
(I'd say "or craps," but I swung by a week or two ago, and I didn't see anything that could be a craps table.)
66 tables: 38 BJ, 6 Roulette, 4 craps and the rest carnival games - no idea on limits but I'd think $5 BJ is optimistic as I'd think the place will be mobbed long after the opening... but limits often drop in the wee hours so will probably depend on day/time. I'm more intrerested on BJ rules and craps odds but have to think will conform to the local competition in CT.
Quote: FleaStiffI don't know if Pennsylvania's huge tax rate on slot machines was aimed at filling Pennsylvania's coffers or also aimed at insuring that the Pennsylvania casinos "grew payrolls" since they would have to grow table games to make money. All of this could have been legitimate revenue ideas for Pennsylvania. Clearly the effect of any Pennsylvania gambling would be to put up a Detour Sign on those highways heading towards Atlantic City, NJ.
I don't know that it was aimed at growing payrolls. When I first moved back here the slot-parlors were already underway. Smart operators built their new joints with table games in mind, which you could see when tables were so easily squeezed in without losing one slot machine in the case of Rivers. (they may have since reduced slots, but at open they said they kept them all.)
The operators said how great slots were, but to compete with AC/WV they needed tables. After tables opened, nearby WV casinos started to feel the pain.
Pennsylvania drives a good deal of gamblers and revenue away from Atlantic City, just as Atlantic City drove gamblers and revenue away from Las Vegas. People not only want their vice they want it nearer to them. Maybe not right next door but close by.
I don't think AC took much from LV. When AC opened in 1977 the casinos in Vegas were getting old and dumpy. People in PA heard you could now gamble in AC and went, my own family for one! As a kid my parents suggested AC that year, at age 8 the beach was the beach. Went with another family and while we were on the beach with our mothers our dads went to see Resorts Casino. But to consider a trip to Vegas? No way. Loads of day-tripper buses would never think of LV either.
A few high-rollers might have not gone to NV when they could drive to AC but IMHO that was negated by people who wanted to "graduate to the real thing."
As was brought up before, the genius in PA is that the casinos are in population centers and not tourist centers, excepting for a few like the Nemacolin Woodlands resort. Am I going to drive almost to Maryland to play poker or shoot craps? No way. Will I drive downtown to do the same? Yes. AC has the same problem, it is a destination and hassle to get to for more people than not. It had its chance to build the shows, food, and other things in the 1980s, but instead they just jammed in more slots and marketed to more day-trippers.
Quote: 24BingoYou know what the limits are? Because if they've got $5 blackjack, even with lousy rules, I might check them out... then again, even those virtual tables are $10, so I doubt it.
(I'd say "or craps," but I swung by a week or two ago, and I didn't see anything that could be a craps table.)
I may take a ride there tomorrow to look around. I hope it's not as smoky as the slot areas. I have no history with them so I obviously wasn't invited to play. I can tell you that I've seen most, if not all, of the blackjack tables and they were all S17. That includes three party pit tables by the bar.
By "growing payrolls" I meant to focus on dealers, security, surveillance, etc. rather than mere slot technicians.
Quote: FleaStiffSome of The Wizard's articles on foreign gambling have revealed how casinos are often rather small affairs that are located in ordinary neighborhoods rather than mega-boxes in tourist-oriented resort areas.
.
I would prefer more of this. Given all the support functions there is some need for critical mass. But for example having no hotel makes for a more personalized service.
Quote: FleaStiffSome of The Wizard's articles on foreign gambling have revealed how casinos are often rather small affairs that are located in ordinary neighborhoods rather than mega-boxes in tourist-oriented resort areas.
That was the original intent in Colorado, No more than 35% of a business space could be devoted to gaming and no more than 50% of any one floor. Well, no gaming in the buffet, cashier's cage, men's rooms ( except for DI's), etc. Casino even argued no gaming going on in aisle space between slot machines.
End result, bye-bye Mom & Pop casinos . In the first 10 years 93 of 134 casinos that opened closed within that decade !Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Hope they have better luck than Penn National. They just gave up on Bullwhackers and sold it to Johhny Z's of Central City.
Ameristar, Isle, and Lodge own Blackhawk market cake. . The other casino's fight for the crumbs.
I believe it was Sparks, Nevada that just last week had someone about to revive a casino and its required 200 room hotel when the City Fathers (ie, other casino owners) decided that now a 300 room hotel would suddenly be required.Quote: AZDuffmanI would prefer more of this. Given all the support functions there is some need for critical mass. But for example having no hotel makes for a more personalized service.
Then of course there is always Hendertucky... I don't think they require a hotel at all.
Quote: FleaStiffI believe it was Sparks, Nevada that just last week had someone about to revive a casino and its required 200 room hotel when the City Fathers (ie, other casino owners) decided that now a 300 room hotel would suddenly be required.
Then of course there is always Hendertucky... I don't think they require a hotel at all.
I met a business broker a few years back in Vegas. He said that any new build required a hotel of I forget what size and that grandfathered unrestricted licenses without one got a small premium. What I wish we could have in other states is a sportsbook about the size of an OTB office. I can see them not wanting casinos on every corner, but there has to be a happy medium.
Quote: BuzzardMy last visit to Blackhawk I found Fitzgeralds undergoing remodeling. It is to become SARATOGA.
WHAT!!!! I just made a round of Colorado casinos, including Fitzgeralds, to collect my souvenir chips. Fat chance I'll get back any time soon to get a Saratoga chip. Snagglefritz!
Quote: AZDuffmanThey had 30 years to make it Vegas-east, build more into the resort experience. Instead they were happy to get day-tripper tour bus crowds of
seniors feeding slots. Sorry if I don't shed a tear.
Also, agree. Suppose Disney had gone to Orlando Florida and made a third rate version of California's Disney Land? That seems to be what happened in AC.
Probably not the only problem but certainly was a factor in AC.
