Will Steve Wynn attract Manhattan gamblers as well as Philadelphia ones
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This travel time is considerably faster than getting from Manhattan to Atlantic City via the weekend Atlantic City Express Service Train (ACES) which actually runs through Philadelphia but does not physically stop there. ACES takes 2.5 hours one way.
I am thinking that Wynn might score a major share of the Manhattan gaming market. Although he won't have a hotel, there are plenty of hotels, or it is a fairly easy day trip.
Currently it is possible to take a train to Trenton and some form of transportation to PARX casino, but I don't think that route is popular. PARX does not have the cachet of the Wynn casino.
It is also possible to take an AMTRAK from Manhattan to New London CT (2.5 hours), but you are still 20 miles from FOXWOODS Casino. Presumably most people take a charter bus directly to Foxwoods which is faster, but less comfortable than riding a train.
The return ticket on Amtrak costs $70 for 1:25 flight and $176 on the Acela Express at 1 hour 10 minutes.
I don't think the Amtrak market at $70 return + the time to take to get to Penn Station + the cab fare from the train station to the Wynn will compete very much against the car market at 10 gallons of gas at $3/gallon.
What I think you'll see is that AC will continue to attract the bus market to AC, the train market will attract a few people (who don't have cars), while the car market will continue to be about the same.
Those people in cars will have an additional choice, and at a difference of 38 miles between Philly and AC, alot of people who go to AC may start heading to Philly.
Another nail in the coffin for AC.
Quote: boymimboI would think you would find that most gamblers living in NYC either go to Mohegan Sun, Foxwoods, or AC today. From Times Square, AC is 133 miles away from , Mohegan Sun is 111 miles away, and Philadelphia is 95 miles away. Alot of gamblers who go to AC are brought in on an extensive casino bus network. I don't know if Mohegan has the same program.
The return ticket on Amtrak costs $70 for 1:25 flight and $176 on the Acela Express at 1 hour 10 minutes.
I don't think the Amtrak market at $70 return + the time to take to get to Penn Station + the cab fare from the train station to the Wynn will compete very much against the car market at 10 gallons of gas at $3/gallon.
What I think you'll see is that AC will continue to attract the bus market to AC, the train market will attract a few people (who don't have cars), while the car market will continue to be about the same.
Those people in cars will have an additional choice, and at a difference of 38 miles between Philly and AC, alot of people who go to AC may start heading to Philly.
Another nail in the coffin for AC.
AC does indeed have that bus network, will it survive is the question. Casino-bus players are going to be mostly lower-roller, senior-citizen slots players. This kind of puts AC where GM was in the auto industry about 1981. That is, an aging customer base with lower incomes than your competitors and new competition all over the place.
I don't know how it rund now, but when I one time used a train to get to AC instead of an 8+ hour drive you had to take Amtrack to Philly then the NJ PATH to AC. So yes, instead of going on another train why not play in Philly? Unless you are going to some kind of convention there is no reason to make the extra trip.
Quote: AZDuffmanI don't know how it run now, but when I one time used a train to get to AC instead of an 8+ hour drive you had to take Amtrack to Philly then the NJ PATH to AC. So yes, instead of going on another train why not play in Philly? Unless you are going to some kind of convention there is no reason to make the extra trip.
On weekends they have the ACES train. The casinos bought special cars which are more comfortable. It follows the same route through Philadelphia but you don't stop there. Each train contains 300 seats with 4 cars per train and the casinos bought 8 cars for two trains. On weekdays you have to do the transfer that you described.
The ACELA express is considerably more expensive to get to Philadelphia in 71 minutes, vs. the slower Regional Service at 95 minutes. Perhaps Wynn will sponsor a low cost shuttle to get the last 5 miles to his casino, or the city will designate a bus route. If the city does it they will alternate with Sugar House casino. Even with the slower train, it should still be much faster than taking a bus to Foxwoods. I think most people prefer trains over buses even for 95 minutes because you can walk around and go to the snack car and have a drink.
If you have a car you more than likely live in a NJ suburb instead of Manhattan. The closest casino to drive to will be to PARX or SANDS Bethlehem. The Wynn casino is downtown Philadelphia so you are negotiating both NY urban driving and PHIL urban driving. That's a nuisance for a day trip.
But, yes I see AC losing a huge percentage of their business when the table games begin in PA. I think that it will be possible to appeal to the wealthy in both Manhattan and Philadelphia. He has a good chance of building up his loyalty program.
Quote: pacomartin
The ACELA express is considerably more expensive to get to Philadelphia in 71 minutes, vs. the slower Regional Service at 95 minutes. Perhaps Wynn will sponsor a low cost shuttle to get the last 5 miles to his casino, or the city will designate a bus route. If the city does it they will alternate with Sugar House casino. Even with the slower train, it should still be much faster than taking a bus to Foxwoods. I think most people prefer trains over buses even for 95 minutes because you can walk around and go to the snack car and have a drink.
It is a no-brainer for Wynn to have a shuttle. Plus smarter than relying on SEPTA to run anything close to what Wynn guests will expect. The SEPTA union might throw a hissy-fit, but let them.
In addition to what you said, trains don't have the stigma that bus travel does, even a private bus. Trains are just more comfy.
From Boston, it is $15 for a ROUNDTRIP ticket to Mohegan (1/2 way to NYC). It leaves and returns the same day (with 5-6 hours at the casino). With the ticket is a lunch voucher (good at the buffets, OR good for $15 at ANY other restaurant, or good for $15 match play), and $50 (2X$15 + 1X$20) in matchplay (on top of lunch). It is a steal to go there for the day, and I know NYC has a similar program.
Greyhound offers similar programs if going to Foxwoods, Mohegan, or AC. This is tough for the trains to beat.
Quote: dlevinelawThose of us in Boston and NYC have very strong incentives to go to Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods, where the casinos have partnered with local bus companies (that cater mostly toward the Asian demographic) offer cheap prices and high rewards for taking the bus.
From Boston, it is $15 for a ROUNDTRIP ticket to Mohegan (1/2 way to NYC). It leaves and returns the same day (with 5-6 hours at the casino). With the ticket is a lunch voucher (good at the buffets, OR good for $15 at ANY other restaurant, or good for $15 match play), and $50 (2X$15 + 1X$20) in matchplay (on top of lunch). It is a steal to go there for the day, and I know NYC has a similar program.
Greyhound offers similar programs if going to Foxwoods, Mohegan, or AC. This is tough for the trains to beat.
I suppose I should have set out my objective. I meant that Wynn could appeal easily appeal to the big money crowd at Manhattan that is currently gambling at the Borgata in Atlantic City. The high rollers that are going there to play, can just as easily come to Philadelphia in relative comfort (much more than a bus). Steve Wynn can afford to comp them their AMTRAK tickets.
If PARX casino can make $356 million just on slot machines last fiscal year, then what might Wynn make on a high end casino that offers baccarat and a full array of table games. With a lot of wealthy customers coming in from Manhattan he might be able to make more than Borgata ($695 million in gaming revenue alone in 2009). Pretty huge numbers for a gaming parlor without a hotel attached. Remember that Wynn/Encore only made $162 million in slot revenue in 2009.
1. Mount Airy is located just off Interstate 80; Sands located just off Interstate 78
2. At least at Mount Airy, a much higher proporton of Giants/Jets fans than Eagle fans.
I'm not sure why anyone would want to brave that PHL traffic to hear Eagles fans whine incessantly about Andy Reid and Donovan.
Paco, in your blog, you make mention of a Category 3 (ie. mini-slots) license at Fernwood. I understand that their application is somewhat problemmatic in no small part due to 15 mile proximity to Mount Airy. The financial hit that Mount Airy took when Sands opened is certain to be at issue when the Fernwood Cat 3 license is up for consideration.
I understand that the more likely successful applicant is Nemacolin Woodlands.
Of course, your source of information may be better than mine.
Quick point of note: I was at Harrington, DE last weekend and the space has been cleared in the casino for the tables. While Delaware is moving forward on table games, Pennsylvania is conducting a series of completely pointless public meetings (the Mount Airy meeting was held with somewhat dimmed lighting...a local traffic accident blew out a transformer). The bureaucrats seem far more intent on justifying their jobs more than they are concerned for others getting their jobs.
The Borgata offers 267 table games and 4,000 slot machines and two baccarat tables.
For all of Atlantic City, there were 34,000 slot machines and 1,600 table games.
My feeling is that the high rollers will already be affiliated to the Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun and perhaps the Borgata. The Mohegan is simply a gorgeous facility while the Foxwoods is truly a hardcore gaming casino. Both are gigantic resorts almost triple the size of the MGM Grand in Vegas. All offer hotels to stay at.
The Wynn will offer 3,000 slot machines and probably about 200 or so games. There will be no hotel attached. Really I think the Wynn will appeal only to locals. You might get a few people who are living on the east who are affiliated with the Wynn in Las Vegas and Macau switching there. And certainly, the Wynn and all of the casinos in Philadelphia will take away business from Atlantic City. But I think New Yorker high rollers will continue to go where they go simply because of the availability of options to them and the perks that they already enjoy.
High roller table gales players and people who drive will probably want to avoid Philly. Will they go to Mt Airy? Possibly, if the reviews of the table games is favorable.
Personally, I don't expect favorable reviews. I was at Mt Airy about two years ago. The biggest impression I got out of that place was, it's small.
AC, Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods offer choices that I don't see in PA. Specifically, you can walk from one casino to another. In the case of Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods, you can walk out of the casino, away from all the noise, and it's a good 15 minute walk to the other casino - even though it's on the same property.
Will that type of different casino feel exist in the PA casinos? Will there be clusters of table game pits that are separate from other clusters? I kinda doubt it.
Not true at all. Many New Yorkers have cars. Sure, they're less likely than those that live outside NYC, but many have cars. And those that work in NYC but live outside NYC are just as likely to live on Long Island, Westchester, CT as NJ.Quote: pacomartinIf you have a car you more than likely live in a NJ suburb instead of Manhattan.
For what it's worth, many people who take the bus to AC own cars.
Me, for instance. I prefer driving to the park & ride at mile 123 on the GS Parkway, and taking the bus the rest of the way. I save a bunch of gas, get cash back, and, get to sleep on the first hour and a half of the ride back - the most boring part of the trip!
Quote: NiblickI would think that Mount Airy and Sands-Bethlehem would both be more attractive to Manhattanites than the Philadelphia venues. Why?
1. Mount Airy is located just off Interstate 80; Sands located just off Interstate 78
2. At least at Mount Airy, a much higher proporton of Giants/Jets fans than Eagle fans.
I'm not sure why anyone would want to brave that PHL traffic to hear Eagles fans whine incessantly about Andy Reid and Donovan.
Paco, in your blog, you make mention of a Category 3 (ie. mini-slots) license at Fernwood. I understand that their application is somewhat problemmatic in no small part due to 15 mile proximity to Mount Airy. The financial hit that Mount Airy took when Sands opened is certain to be at issue when the Fernwood Cat 3 license is up for consideration.
I understand that the more likely successful applicant is Nemacolin Woodlands.
Of course, your source of information may be better than mine.
Quick point of note: I was at Harrington, DE last weekend and the space has been cleared in the casino for the tables. While Delaware is moving forward on table games, Pennsylvania is conducting a series of completely pointless public meetings (the Mount Airy meeting was held with somewhat dimmed lighting...a local traffic accident blew out a transformer). The bureaucrats seem far more intent on justifying their jobs more than they are concerned for others getting their jobs.
I should have mentioned that Fernwood is only an applicant. There is also a racino in the West called Valley View Downs that has just lost their financing. The Reading outlet malls are also only applicants. As I understand it the Gaming control board is not authorized to issue more than 14 licenses and there are 9 casino/racinos operating today with Sugar House under construction.
The Foxwoods casino was in serious trouble. There is still a lot of resistance from the neighborhood. Steve Wynn is supposed to be the political dynamo that will make the casino happen. He's one of the few white guys that can stand in front of a microphone and say "I love the Vietnamese people and I want to build them a great casino with a great Vietnamese restaurant" and not sound patronizing.
Delaware has always been one of the most efficient states. It was a standing joke that you could feel it when you crossed the state border from Pennsylvania to Delaware. A lot of PA people are very conservative, and very religious. They feel that they were sold a line that these would be slot clubs only, and now politicians reversed themselves four years later.
Personally, I consider slot machines addictive. I would think that permitting table games would be a far better way to go.
I don't think anyone will want to drive to Philadelphia over PARX or SANDS or MT AIRY. I was thinking of all the moneyed people in Manhattan who would much rather get on a train for 70 minutes than spend 2.5 hours in a bus going to Foxwoods. They also don't mind building up loyalty credits for their next Vegas trip.
You're right. But they'd rather drive to AC or CT.Quote: pacomartinI was thinking of all the moneyed people in Manhattan who would much rather get on a train for 70 minutes than spend 2.5 hours in a bus going to Foxwoods.
1. It seems to me there has to be a "something else" factor in order for one to go out of one's way to go to a casino; be it horse/harness racing, golf, shows, etc. All other casinos mentioned in this thread have that "something else" attraction (even Atlantic City) but I'm not sure the Philadelphia casinos would. For sure, PHL has it's attributes (e.g Independence Mall) but it seems a bit of a stretch that those downtown atttributes would attract the bus traffic.
2. Paco, I find your comment about the addictiveness of slots interesting. Without meaning to pass any judgment on slots, I find what I see at the slots troubling. First off, at least to the venues I visit, one learns very quickly not to go there the day of or after the social security checks arrive. Secondly, I am somewhat taken aback seeing a seemingly high percentage of physically handicapped and those wearing an oxygen tank. I don't know what to make of this...outside of this discussion being probably more suitable for another thread.
Here's the thread: https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/1300-gambling-is-a-recreational-activity/Quote: NiblickI am somewhat taken aback seeing a seemingly high percentage of physically handicapped and those wearing an oxygen tank. I don't know what to make of this...outside of this discussion being probably more suitable for another thread.
