What I Like about Catholicism

I apologize for writing about religion again. In my post Let' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/off-topic/6528-let-me-say-something-nice-about-religion-for-once/]Let me say something nice about religion, for once in the process of giving some praise to the Mormon faith I put too much poison in my pen attacking Catholicism. So, I promised FrGamble I would write a post saying some nice things about his faith. In the spirit of Pascal's Wager, I better not break a promise made to a priest. So, here we go:

1. Catholicism is a tangible religion. Instead of having to bother god directly with your prayers and needs, Catholicism offers a host of real people and saints to cut through the red tape. If there really were a god I would feel guilty about wasting his time with my insignificant problems. Rather, I like that fact that priests are licensed agents of god here on earth. I know that priests can't grant prayers, and for that there are the many saints who I would not feel so badly about bothering. Isn't that their job, to take prayer requests?
2. Catholicism is an adaptable religion. I admit I'm not an expert in this area, but I like how the faith assumes icons of other religions and claims them for itself. Maybe this is a bad example, but in Mexico somehow the Aztec god of Tonantzin somehow got replaced by Our Lady of Guadalupe, which I think is the Virgin Mary's alter ego.
3. Catholicism has a leader. I'm big on a chain of command, and Catholicism has that in spades. I like how the Pope has a direct line to god, and has the authority to change church policy. Sometimes they are slow in doing that, at least in my opinion, but at least it is possible. No waiting for the next prophet to come along.
4. Catholicism puts the church over the bible. Once a Catholic said on another forum I used to frequent, "God gave us a church, not a bible." I like that. The bible is too vague on many things. I've never known protestants to agree on anything, because it seems they can argue both sides of any issue by picking and choosing the passages that support their side. With Catholicism you're not left to figure it out on your own but there is a whole organization to explain it to you.
5. Catholicism has confession. I really like the concept of spilling my guts to somebody and then be able to atone for my sins by saying x number of Hail Marys and Act of Contritions. Personally, if I were a priest, I would add some physical penance as well, like pushups, or running laps, but alas, I don't write the rules. I know that there is forgiveness in other religions, but I don't want to be forgiven, I want to be punished. They say Catholicism is a guilt-based religion, and I like that, because I feel guilty.
6. Catholicism has a rich culture to it. One could write a book about this, but I like the traditions, art, and music of the Catholic church. For example, I like how the Pope throws out blessings when he rides in the Pope-mobile. I like all the pomp and circumstance of Catholic rituals. I like how Catholic churches put an emphasis on artwork.

What I really wanted to say in this post is to tell a story. I've been to a number of funerals. Usually the deceased was a non-church-going Protestant. Somehow they would find a Protestant preacher to give the service, and he would always say a lot of nice things about somebody he never met, and then say nice things about Heaven and how we have that to look forward to. I strikes me as dishonest.

In contrast, when I lived in Santa Barbara I went to a Catholic funeral of a janitor for the company I worked for. He was of Mexican heritage and spoke little English. I didn't know him very well, but whenever I called him he seemed to be drunk and used a great deal of profanity. He broke all kinds of company rules, but we kept him around because his wife was a reliable worker, and you had to take both or neither.

In contrast his wife, as far as I knew, was a regular church-going Catholic. While she always stood by his side, she was always stone-cold sober and made an outstanding employee. So, when her husband died, and at the young age of about 50, I guess she made arrangements for a traditional Catholic funeral/mass.

I didn't get the impression the priest knew the deceased at all. What I found refreshingly honest was that he didn't sugar coat anything. Instead of the usual nice words about Heaven and forgiveness, he really let it rip. His message instead was aimed at the living. He said that when you die that you had better be ready to face god. You better be able to say that you led a good Catholic life. That you better leave the priest giving your mass something positive to say about you. The omission about having nothing to say about the presently deceased was gaping. I could see the widow was in tears.

It was the best display of honesty I can recall ever seeing. As opposed to the usual "I'm okay you're okay" funeral, he put the fear of hell in everybody in that church. The old Billy Graham could not have done it better.

So, there you have it. Now that I have hopefully met my obligation to FrGamble I will try to shut up about religion for a while.

I read your whole post twice and I'm still trying to find the "nice things". That was the biggest collection of left-handed compliments I've seen in a long time.

Thanks Wizard I appreciate it and as far as the left-handed compliments, I understand some people are just naturally left handed especially when it comes to stuff like this, I'm okay with that. You strike me as a pretty genuine guy and your post sounds like a genuine effort to say some nice things about Catholicism. Thanks again. I hope I don't come off as too meek but I'm just going to let your post stand as it is, your personal reflections, and not attack, defend or try to say you are right or you are wrong. Maybe later I'll write what I like about atheism. God Bless and thanks! As we all know you are a man of your word.

p.s. I will often give a pennance that includes some type of fasting.

Quote: Wizard

Catholicism is an adaptable religion.

I heard one priest describe it as "organic," in the sense that it is a living faith.

Quote: tsmith

That was the biggest collection of left-handed compliments I've seen in a long time.

...which is precisely what made it so enjoyable to me.

I agree about the whole confession thing. Catholics can apparently sin all week long then go to confession and say a couple Hail Marys and that's it? lol not much of a deterrent is it? Then sin again all the next week? If the priest forced that sinner to scour the baseboards with a toothbrush, well, then he'd probably lose a member of the congregation who would keep on sinning anyway but now he's not adding to the collection plate.

Quote: tsmith

I read your whole post twice and I'm still trying to find the "nice things". That was the biggest collection of left-handed compliments I've seen in a long time.

Call me left handed then, but that is the best I can do at this time. It was not my intention to have it come off that way. At least I was trying to be honest.

Quote: FrGamble

Thanks Wizard I appreciate it and as far as the left-handed compliments, I understand some people are just naturally left handed especially when it comes to stuff like this, I'm okay with that. You strike me as a pretty genuine guy and your post sounds like a genuine effort to say some nice things about Catholicism. Thanks again. I hope I don't come off as too meek but I'm just going to let your post stand as it is, your personal reflections, and not attack, defend or try to say you are right or you are wrong. Maybe later I'll write what I like about atheism. God Bless and thanks! As we all know you are a man of your word.

p.s. I will often give a pennance that includes some type of fasting.

You're quite welcome, Father. No need to write anything about atheism. I'd prefer to hear something from the heart about your own faith. Fasting as a penance -- I like that.

Quote: zippyboy

Catholics can apparently sin all week long then go to confession and say a couple Hail Marys and that's it? lol not much of a deterrent is it? Then sin again all the next week?

That is not the impression I got from the funeral I mentioned in my OP. However, I will let a real Catholic set the record straight, if what you wrote is not the case. I think it has something to do with whether or not the sin was premeditated.

If you really wanted to say something nice, all you had to say was, "The Catholic Church might not be my cup of tea but it seems to give a lot of people the comfort and inner peace that all of us are striving for."

Quote: tsmith

If you really wanted to say something nice, all you had to say was, "The Catholic Church might not be my cup of tea but it seems to give a lot of people the comfort and inner peace that all of us are striving for."

That isn't me. That sounds like something a greeting-card writer would say.

Forgive me, Wizard, for I have sinned.

Earlier this year I was at a craps table and made a hardway bet.

Am I forgiven? What is my pennants [sic]?

Quote: 7outlineaway

What is my pennants [sic]?

Write my Ten Commandments of Gambling and do five push-ups for each $1 bet.

Quote: FrGamble

Maybe later I'll write what I like about atheism.

I think that would be interesting to read.

Quote: Wizard

Catholicism is an adaptable religion. I admit I'm not an expert in this area, but I like how the faith assumes icons of other religions and claims them for itself. Maybe this is a bad example, but in Mexico somehow the Aztec god of Tonantzin somehow got replaced by Our Lady of Guadalupe, which I think is the Virgin Mary's alter ego.

Totally DISAGREE with you on this one. This is a terrible example. Catholicism is one of the least adaptable religions. This is a religion that believes only men should be priests, where homosexuals are thrown out, and any changes must come from a man who works miles away from the people.

Quote: Wizard

Catholicism has a rich culture to it. One could write a book about this, but I like the traditions, art, and music of the Catholic church. For example, I like how the Pope throws out blessings when he rides in the Pope-mobile. I like all the pomp and circumstance of Catholic rituals. I like how Catholic churches put an emphasis on artwork.

Totally AGREE with you here. The art and music of the Catholic church are really great. Even the rituals have a beauty about them.

When you're ready to convert, you might find Episcopalian to be right up your alley. I'm not a heavy church goer, but I was raised Episcopalian (my grandfather was an ex-Catholic priest). It's often referred as "Catholic lite. All the rituals, none of the guilt." Alas, we don't have Confession or Communion rules, we allow our priests to marry and we are very accepting of all types of people. Furthermore, most Episcopalians believe that you can think whatever you want, and that's A-ok by us! Don't confuse us with the more traditional Anglicans though... well, that's another story entirely.

Here is another gift to my Catholic friends on the board. I went through my old photo albums and found these pictures I took of the Pope John Paul II when he visited Baltimore, I think in 1995. Note the nice clear shots. I lugged my ladder all the way there to get an unobstructed view. Lousy camera, though. The Pope-mobile was moving fast, so the pictures are rather blurry.

Click on any picture for a larger version.

Penance!!!

Sigh... Christianity in general has a way to go to heaven after you have sinned. The basic assumption is that everyone is a sinner. Jesus died to save us from our sins (a path to Heaven). Therefore, sin as less as possible. Different christian faiths have different beliefs on what qualifies you for heaven in accordance to different passages in the bible which are subject to interpretation.

Catholics in general, in my opnion, are the religion of guilt, because a practicing Catholic should confess their sins each week and must complete Penance in order to be forgiven. I've never met a Catholic who just didn't feel guilty, whether it was with the way they were living their life, their relationship with their parents, their marriage etc. I just sense from all of the Catholics I know this great sense of guilt. I know I'm stereotyping.

But nice post, Mike.

Catholics have cool churches and neat hats that the
Pope wears. Go in some of the cathedrals is France,
you'll swear god lives there.

If you are like my mom who died recently at 88 you can go retro and become a tridentine Catholic. They still say the mass in latin and use all that cool incense every chance they get. Mel Gibson is a tridentine Catholic. The pope keeps threatening to excommunicate them. They think Pope John Paul XXIII was the antichrist for his changes to the church and the liturgy. I went to church a couple of times with mom. I guarantee no tridentines are practicing any forms of birth control LOL.

Quote: ncfatcat

If you are like my mom who died recently at 88 you can go retro and become a tridentine Catholic.

Recommended by four out of five Catholic dentists, no doubt.

I'm guessing communion must be taken only by mouth and not by hand, correct?

You can always tell who holds the power in a city
by the tallest buildings. Up until very recently, the
tallest in EU were the Catholic cathedrals. As the
churches power waned, the office buildings became
the tallest because big business ran the cities. In
Salt Lake City, the tabernacle was the tallest building
until the 1930's. But I believe the tallest office buildings
in Salt lake belong to the Mormons, so whats the difference.
Even in the small towns in the US, the churches had
tall spires with crosses on top so they would tower over
every other building. That was no accident.

You got it only a priest may touch the Body of CHrist and never "shudder" a woman of all things!!!!!

Why are so many priests pedophiles, and why has the church sheltered them?

Every one of those sinning, boy-banging bastards has hypocritically pissed on their vows and lied relentlessly to their flocks.

I was raised Catholic, but I rejected it once I learned to think for myself.

Superstition, ritual, and dogma: the trifecta.

Bah.

I had it with the Catholic church when i thought about some kid's soul burning in hell, because his parents did not baptize him.
Lawsuits were what it took for the Catholic Church to stop protecting pedophiles in the USA. Even then parishes hid behind bankruptcy laws, while the man in the silly hat in Rome sat on billions.
And I am sure priests do a wonderful job in marriage counseling LOL
But in 1995 a friend of mind make a killing on the Pope's visit. He sold ice cream and cardboard periscopes.
POPEsicles and POPEscopes.
Nice to see somebody make some money off the POPE for a change !

Quote: MrV

Why are so many priests pedophiles, and why has the church sheltered them?.

When I had the bar in CA, I had lots of Gay
customers because there was a Gay bar down
the street. There were some older Gay business
men who I asked questions of, and they said
any organization that's made up of all men
attracts Gay's like flies to honey. The Church,
YMCA, Boy Scouts, fraternal groups, the military.
In fact, two of those guys were AF officers in
the 50's and they swear they never got more
'action' in their lives. They both claimed the military
has far more Gay's than anybody would ever guess.

Gee, which of those groups would move the known pedophiles into new community and look the other way ?
I'll give you a clue. Their leader lives in Rome and wears a funny hat.

Quote: buzzpaff

Their leader lives in Rome and wears a funny hat.

For a thousand years the Catholic Church was
the only men's club going. The priests ran
everything, had servants, had a monopoly
on education and wealth. They could do
whatever they wanted with each other and
young boys, who was going to tell them no.

The physical penance thing was the funniest thing I have read in a long time. That might not be a bad idea FrGamble "30 hail marys and 30 pushups you fornicating panzy!!!" with spit flying threw the confession screen.

I have nothing against atheism but it sure seems increasingly trendy... like the bigger our houses and the fatter our stomachs the easier it is to say F God. In Fed we trust.

Johnny went to confession and said he had sex with one of the 11th graders. Was In Mary Francis, the priest asked? No said Johnny.
Was it Ellen Louise ? No Johnny said. Was it Mary Beth ? No It was not John said. The priest then gave him his penance to do.
Next in line, Jimmy asked him how it went. "Great" Johnny said, " 10 Hail Marys and 3 hot leads. "

Do you write for the Red Bull commercials?

Quote: EvenBob

For a thousand years the Catholic Church was
the only men's club going. The priests ran
everything, had servants, had a monopoly
on education and wealth. They could do
whatever they wanted with each other and
young boys, who was going to tell them no.

deliverusfromevil

This is a woodcut of the Church selling indulgences in the 16th
century. If you had money, you could buy your way out of hell
by buying an indulgence and the Church (and God) would
forget you killed your neighbor.

guys guys guys, this is the "what I like about Catholicism" forum. Besides, anyone can pick on Catholicism. They're like the smallest, most harmless kid on the playground. Get some balls and bash Islam.

Quote: MrV

I was raised Catholic, but I rejected it once I learned to think for myself.

Yep. I was raised Lutheran in Minnesota, but I rejected it by the time I was 6. My grandparents kept taking me to church every Sunday and I kept looking around at the adults in the congregation wondering "Really? You're buyin' this?"

Have you heard the famous story about the dictator (I've heard it was Napelon, Stalin, or some other guy) who calls a Catholic Cardinal into the office and berates him for his faith and for the noncooperation of the Church and finally says, "Don't you know I have the power to destroy the Church!" The Cardinal looks at him and says, "My dear sir, we in the Church have been trying to do that for a thousand years; I doubt you can do any better." I'm reminded of that story when reading these painful posts because it is true that the Church made up of falliable human beings has sinned. All of these references to selling indulgences, the recent scandals from priests and bishops, etc. is brought on by ourselves. When I meet with people upset about the Church it is always because we shot ourselves in the foot, instead of being loving, patient, and kind we did something stupid, arrogant, or sinful. All this reminds me of Jesus' closest friends, the Apostles, on whose faith the Catholic Church was founded. They floundered and bumbled around, deserted our Lord at His time of need, they were for the most part uneducated, hard working people and yet somehow Christ was able to found a Church using them and their brokeness that toppled the greatest empire on earth and spread to the four corners of the earth. This problem of being made up of sinful men reminds me of me as well. Some of these posts remind me how important it is to always be the best priest I can be and how scary it is to know that my mistakes can drive people away from the Church and God. Yet I believe God can use falliable little old me to spread His Good News. This Church which has sinned should also remind you of yourself. Yes, you too make mistakes. God still loves you and can use you to do great things. Isn't that a great message of hope!

This leads me to what I love about the Catholic Church. It gives us an answer to our own brokeness and the difficulties we cannot escape because we are human beings. Rather than run from them or try to escape God comes to us in the midst of them. This is a radical change. Religion has often been looked at by ancients and others outside of Christianity as a way out of suffering in which God is rooting for you up in the clouds. Never has it been heard of, nor even imagined, that God would come to us, embrace us in our problems, and walk the journey of life with us, even suffer and die with us and for us. This is love in its most amazing and pure sense. I believe we really don't want a God who stays up in the sky cheering us on, or someone who can teach us a way out, or even someone who can miraculously make our suffering dissappear. We want someone to be there with us holding our hand going through the tough times together. This is where love is purified and strengthened like gold in a furance. This is a friend, a lover of uncomparable value. Ultimately this is what we are all searching for, someone who will always be there for us and love us unconditionally. I hope everyone reading this has someone like that and I hope everyone knows that they do in Jesus Christ.

So sorry about the long post but it turns out that one of the many things that I love about the Catholic Church is surprisingly enough her need to depend on God and how she shows that God can truly work wonders through us all, even when we make mistakes. This is at the heart of Christianity - depend of God's love working through you and even the gates of Hell will not prevail against you!

Quote: FrGamble

Ultimately this is what we are all searching for, someone who will always be there for us and love us unconditionally.

You're talking about Santa, right? We all love Santa...

Is that a typo? Did you mean Satan?

Well, as the True Sadist replied when the masochist said " beat me " NO !

Good post Padre!

Quote: EvenBob

This is a woodcut of the Church selling indulgences in the 16th century.

The Catholic church has two thousand years of history and billions of members over it's lifetime. It isn't very hard to go through that much history and find offensive behavior. Even the Catholic church acknowledges that the medieval selling of indulgences was sinful. The modern Catholic church no longer defends it's anti-semitism, it's inquisition, and the punishment of Galileo.

Tecumseh has become an icon and heroic figure in American Indian and Canadian history. But at the time, the man that led the battle that killed Tecumseh, Zachary Taylor, was elected to a very short presidency. We don't condemn Taylor today or the American presidency.

History is history. It all comes with lots of bad stuff.

Quote: pacomartin

The Catholic church has two thousand years of history and billions of members over it's lifetime. It isn't very hard to go through that much history and find offensive behavior.

Hey, I like indulgences, they should bring them back.
It was one of the Churches better ideas. Certainly
better than the Inquisition.

Quote: buzzpaff

Gee, which of those groups would move the known pedophiles into new community and look the other way ?

All of them.

Here are some good things about the Catholic Church that have nothing to do with gods. To me, these are some of the strongest, most powerfully human things in this world.

1) "Remember, man, that you are dust. And to dust you shall return." This is the entirety of our existence. For non-Catholics, this is what the priest says to you when he marks your forehead on Ash Wednesday. The ritual is incredibly powerful and meaningful.

2) The belief that there is no man or woman beyond complete forgiveness and redemption. This is one of the deepest and most loving and generous measures of civilization, that a sinner can repent and be redeemed. A murderer can truly repent and be forgiven. A man kills another man, and walks out of prison 10 years later at age 33... he still has a life ahead of him. Judge this man when his life is over, not at 33, not at 23. I know this man personally. He still struggles with what he has done, and he is still trying to make his life worthy and meaningful. (Fistfight, one man fell and hit his head and died. The first man provoked the fight, and was a bully and hell raiser.)

(I listened to a priest bungle this one just this past weekend. FrGamble, you of course know what the Gospel was for the 25th Sunday in ordinary time in this cycle: Matthew 20, "The last shall be first, and the first shall be last."

1 'Now the kingdom of Heaven is like a landowner going out at daybreak to hire workers for his vineyard.

2 He made an agreement with the workers for one denarius a day and sent them to his vineyard.

3 Going out at about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the market place

4 and said to them, "You go to my vineyard too and I will give you a fair wage."

5 So they went. At about the sixth hour and again at about the ninth hour, he went out and did the same.

6 Then at about the eleventh hour he went out and found more men standing around, and he said to them, "Why have you been standing here idle all day?"

7 "Because no one has hired us," they answered. He said to them, "You go into my vineyard too."

8 In the evening, the owner of the vineyard said to his bailiff, "Call the workers and pay them their wages, starting with the last arrivals and ending with the first."

9 So those who were hired at about the eleventh hour came forward and received one denarius each.

10 When the first came, they expected to get more, but they too received one denarius each.

11 They took it, but grumbled at the landowner saying,

12 "The men who came last have done only one hour, and you have treated them the same as us, though we have done a heavy day's work in all the heat."

13 He answered one of them and said, "My friend, I am not being unjust to you; did we not agree on one denarius?

14 Take your earnings and go. I choose to pay the last comer as much as I pay you.

15 Have I no right to do what I like with my own? Why should you be envious because I am generous?"

16 Thus the last will be first, and the first, last.'

In Catholic context, this means that it doesn't matter to God when you repent; if you commit torture and rape and murder and truly repent on the gallows, you are equal and in grace in the eyes of the Lord. Outside of the Catholic context, though, it still has the same incredibly moving message, that all men and women are equal. The currency is equality, and once earned one amount is equal to any other. The priest last weekend gave some jumbled sermon having to do with the current economy. [If you want to know why this atheist was in church, I have nothing against churches. The people there are nice and the music is usually pretty good. Mrs Mosca and I were at the Notre Dame/Michigan State game, and she wanted to go to mass afterward on campus. No problem.])


3)"I confess to almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do." It is incredibly cleansing to say these words in front of your friends and neighbors, if you think about them and don't just mouth them. To admit that you are weak is the key to becoming strong. Take the god out, the message is the same.


I could go on and on, I will in another post because we're going to the movies soon (probably Contagion, because Moneyball doesn't hit our area until tomorrow). If you strip out all the god stuff, there's still an undeniably powerful message about what it means to be human, and to live with others in the world.

What I hate about the Catholic Church
On Tuesday, after he had been fired from his job as a counselor at a Bavarian spa town, the priest at the center of the German Catholic Church scandal paid a visit to the man who had been his therapist in Munich when the troubles began back in the 1980s. Dr. Werner Huth describes his former patient as now being a "broken old man and very depressed." But, he says, "the priest still sees himself as a victim."

In an interview with TIME, Dr. Huth paints a portrait of the priest known as Father H., accused of sexually abusing boys in the archdiocese of Munich and Freising, then run by Archbishop Joseph Ratzinger, the future Pope Benedict XVI. Father H., says the psychiatrist, "was narcissistic, like other pedophiles, and I repeatedly warned church officials in the 1980s that he shouldn't be allowed to work with children or young people." Dr. Huth says the priest came to him in 1980 after he was transferred to Munich to undergo therapy. As Archbishop of Munich and Freising, Ratzinger approved the transfer from Essen to Munich and the decision to give Father H. housing in the Munich diocese to undertake therapy. "A Jesuit father in Essen sent me a letter telling me about Father H.'s pedophilia and the priest then approached me directly," says Dr. Huth. The psychiatrist says Father H. initially didn't want any therapy, and he lacked self-awareness, refusing to acknowledge what he did was wrong. "Father H. was a pedophile — there's no doubt about it — and he was also a gifted actor," Dr. Huth says, recalling the fact that the priest boasted that he was a budding actor as a child. (See the Catholic school sex scandal in Ireland.)

Such were his concerns about the priest's pedophilic tendencies that Dr Huth said he set three conditions when he started treating Father H: that he shouldn't be allowed to work with children, he should give up alcohol, (because he allegedly committed the acts of abuse when he was drunk), and that he needed a mentor, someone who could supervise him at all times. The doctor said he made these requirements clear to church officials during a number of conversations, including an auxiliary bishop in the archdiocese of Munich and Freising. "Father H. never fulfilled these conditions," says Huth who treated him in group therapy sessions from 1980 to 1992. Amid the group therapy, Father H. was convicted of sexually abusing minors in 1986. Afer receiving an 18-month suspended prison sentence and paying a fine, Father H. continued to do pastoral work. But Huth says the priest told the group during therapy sessions that he operated in the parish and kept away from children. "He was a good liar," says Huth. (How damaged is the Papacy amid the sex scandal in Catholic Europe?)

Then in 2008, Dr. Huth says he received a call from a church official who told him that Father H. was still working with children. Indeed, for more than 20 years, the priest worked as a curate and parish administrator in the picturesque Bavarian town of Garching an der Alz, where he had regular contact with children and had supervised 150 altar-boys. The official had stumbled across old files which raised alarm bells. "I was horrified as there was no way this man should have been near children," Dr. Huth, now 80, told TIME from his house in Munich. After consulting with Huth, the church official had Father H. transferred to the Bavarian spa town of Bad Tölz where he was put in charge of counselling services for tourists and visitors.

Then, on March 12, the German newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung revealed the priest's history of sexual abuse. Three days later, Father H. was suspended from all pastoral duties. The Archdiocese of Munich and Freising admitted that he'd breached a church order banning him from working with children or youths and said in a statement that "serious mistakes" were made in the 1980s. And there was one resignation. Father H's superior, prelate Josef Obermaier, stepped down after the archdiocese said he assumed responsibility for "grave errors."

While the case of Father H. has assumed a high profile, Germany's sexual abuse scandal first broke in January when it was alleged that two former priests molested pupils at Berlin's Jesuit school, Canisius College. Since then, dozens of people have come forward with allegations of sexual abuse levelled against former priests. The scandal has even spread to the famous Regensburg Cathedral choir — which was led by the Pope's brother Georg Ratzinger for 30 years — and there've been up to a hundred allegations of abuse at a boarding school run by Benedictine monks in Ettal, Bavaria, which was raided by state prosecutors. Germany's Catholic Church has pulled out all the stops to convince parishioners that it's doing everything to prevent such abuse cases from happening again. It is setting up a nationwide hotline for victims of abuse on March 30 and has pledged to step up preventive measures and work closely with state prosecutors.

While there's been feverish speculation in the German media about the Pope's role in the Father H affair, Dr. Huth says he thinks that Archbishop Ratzinger did not know about the case, simply because it seems unlikely that he'd be aware of everything that happened in his diocese. But the psychiatrist criticised church officials for turning a blind eye to the priest's history of abuse by not launching a thorough investigation. "Senior figures in the Catholic Church covered up the allegations of abuse in order to protect Father H and the church's image," Dr. Huth says. "The Church has an idealised, 'unworldly' attitude towards issues of sexuality."

Quote: ncfatcat

If you are like my mom who died recently at 88 you can go retro and become a tridentine Catholic. They still say the mass in latin and use all that cool incense every chance they get. Mel Gibson is a tridentine Catholic. The pope keeps threatening to excommunicate them. They think Pope John Paul XXIII was the antichrist for his changes to the church and the liturgy. I went to church a couple of times with mom. I guarantee no tridentines are practicing any forms of birth control LOL.

They had a church here near Pittsburgh that never went off the Latin Mass after the massive Vatican 2 conferenfce, which modernized a lot of things. The Diocese and Rome supposedly kept telling them to cut it out, but they kept bringing in the old-schoolers week after week. One family traveled about 100 miles from WV for this Mass.

IMHO, Vatican 2 kind of brought on the decline of the Catholic Church in western countries. One thing the Catholic Church really had, as others have said, was really nice chrurches and a lot of ceremony. Even as late as the late 1970s when I was a kid people dressed welll for church, the place was filled, and it had some mystique. The attitude was, "if you want the modern stuff, become a protestant." Not officially, but that is how it worked. Then churches were directed to be built with a more modest design. Lay Ministers gave communion. No more Latin. The mystique fell off piece by piece. And people stopped going little by little because, hey, it was not the big deal it once was.

I am a bad example as I never liked church very much. If it were some discussion and a thought process of leading a good life that would be fine. But I never liked the singing (I HATED the singing) and other stuff. But I am not normal to that stuff.

Quote: Tiltpoul

Totally DISAGREE with you on this one. This is a terrible example. Catholicism is one of the least adaptable religions. This is a religion that believes only men should be priests, where homosexuals are thrown out, and any changes must come from a man who works miles away from the people.

That is what makes the Catholic Church more "real" to me. Top-down control has worked for 2000 years so keep it going. As it is an unhealthy choice on so many levels they are not going to all of the sudden say homosexuality is "ok" because it is politically correct. I do wish, however, they would teach their priests how to be more engaging in their Homilies. Some of the ones I have seen could put an amphetimene addict to a sound sleep. The best one we had when I was a kid left the priesthood.

BTW: That guy knew how to keep his people listening. Said he was nearly in a barfight because the other guy at the bar would not believe he was a priest when he told him that was his job while they were talking. No idea if it was true, probably at the least embelished, but it made you listen. I mean, how many of you peeps out there ever heard your priest say he was nearly in a barfight during mass?!

Quote: AZDuffman

That is what makes the Catholic Church more "real" to me. Top-down control has worked for 2000 years so keep it going. As it is an unhealthy choice on so many levels they are not going to all of the sudden say homosexuality is "ok" because it is politically correct.

While top-down control is the best way to govern masses within a smaller region, I don't believe you can make worldwide rules. Actually, this day in age, it's easier because of mass media outlets available to everybody; the Pope can hop on Facebook and let everybody know the newest arcane rule. However, the Church is so far behind on some issues that by not being more flexible it is losing members who otherwise could have been saved.

As far as all the comments about pedophilia, I get really tired when I hear people generalize the issue. There are priests out there who have done some heinous acts towards children... I wouldn't even begin to defend those actions at all. But I simply don't believe it's as widespread as the media makes it out to be. As much as I love South Park, "Red Hot Catholic Love," although hilariously funny, is an over exaggeration of the problem. Unfortunately a few bad priests can spoil how the flock is viewed...

I believe that most men of the cloth really do mean well for the congregations... I probably think too much of humanity, but I just don't believe that the problem is as big as we are led to believe it is.

Quote: Mosca

1) "Remember, man, that you are dust. And to dust you shall return." This is the entirety of our existence. For non-Catholics, this is what the priest says to you when he marks your forehead on Ash Wednesday. The ritual is incredibly powerful and meaningful.

You find it good to be told you're nothing?

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2) The belief that there is no man or woman beyond complete forgiveness and redemption.

That's a really bad thing to believe. many people are beyond forgiveness and redemption. Murderers and rapists, for example. No amount of regret and remorse will get their victims un-killed or un-raped. While that si true, there can be no rational basis for forgiveness.

But of course religion doesn't mean "in this life." A murder victim, in the eyes of most religions, still exists as a soul in heaven or Hell, or wherever the belief system says. So killing someone isn't that bad, perhaps, as realy killing someone is beyond the powers of the bits of dust they hold humans to be. As much as I'd like to belive in an after-life, I've no reason to do so. This life is it. That's all you have. That's all everyone has. Takign or ruining a life with the intent of doing so, is unforgivable, because it takes away somethign that is precious, priceless and irreplaceable.

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This is one of the deepest and most loving and generous measures of civilization, that a sinner can repent and be redeemed. A murderer can truly repent and be forgiven. A man kills another man, and walks out of prison 10 years later at age 33... he still has a life ahead of him. Judge this man when his life is over, not at 33, not at 23. I know this man personally. He still struggles with what he has done, and he is still trying to make his life worthy and meaningful. (Fistfight, one man fell and hit his head and died. The first man provoked the fight, and was a bully and hell raiser.)

This is the wrong example. Of course someone whi kills without intent to kill, even if he intended harm, can be forgiven. But that's miles distant from a murderer who kills on purpose, or a rapist who rapes on purpose, or a child moelster who also acts on purpose. Such people cannot,a nd should not, ever be forgiven. if they live, and some fo them shoulnd't, they ought to live knowing they're not worthy of mercy or forgiveness, and that all their remorse is as worthless as they are.

Quote: Nareed

You find it good to be told you're nothing?

That is not at all what it says. It says your body in this life is a vessel, and at the end of your life your soul will leave that vessel and return to God. (or Wizard for the poor sap who lost his soul betting a netative-expectation game, but I digress for light humor.) So it is saying remember there is more than you and to you than just this life.

Some people do have problems with religion in general because it forces you to admit there is something better than ones-self.

Quote: Nareed

You find it good to be told you're nothing?

Shelley wrote "Ozymandias" with the same theme; it is a fairly well regarded work.

OZYMANDIAS

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: `Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert... Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear --
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.'

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That's a really bad thing to believe. many people are beyond forgiveness and redemption. Murderers and rapists, for example. No amount of regret and remorse will get their victims un-killed or un-raped. While that si true, there can be no rational basis for forgiveness.

But of course religion doesn't mean "in this life." A murder victim, in the eyes of most religions, still exists as a soul in heaven or Hell, or wherever the belief system says. So killing someone isn't that bad, perhaps, as realy killing someone is beyond the powers of the bits of dust they hold humans to be. As much as I'd like to belive in an after-life, I've no reason to do so. This life is it. That's all you have. That's all everyone has. Takign or ruining a life with the intent of doing so, is unforgivable, because it takes away somethign that is precious, priceless and irreplaceable.

I'm sorry, I disagree. Of course many people never reach forgiveness, nor find redemption. But it is my belief that they can always achieve this. Understand, I am not advocating that these people should then be freed from punishment. I simply believe that they have the ability to become good. That is all.

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This is the wrong example. Of course someone whi kills without intent to kill, even if he intended harm, can be forgiven. But that's miles distant from a murderer who kills on purpose, or a rapist who rapes on purpose, or a child moelster who also acts on purpose. Such people cannot,a nd should not, ever be forgiven. if they live, and some fo them shoulnd't, they ought to live knowing they're not worthy of mercy or forgiveness, and that all their remorse is as worthless as they are.

Bobby did not mean to kill, but he absolutely acted with malice. Again, we simply disagree.

I'm no fool. I don't have patience or room for these people in my life personally, I don't seek them out and try to redeem them. But I believe they are capable of it, that they have potential value after they have acted. They may have to realize that potential while serving life in prison, or in between conviction and the gallows; so be it. Or they may never even try to reach it. But I believe the message. I don't believe in gods, but I believe in the goodness of my fellow humans.

Quote: Mosca

Shelley wrote "Ozymandias" with the same theme; it is a fairly well regarded work.

I've read it.

It misses the point. What matter is what you can accomplish with your life in the time you have, not what people think or how they remember you. By the time you're eulogized, you'll be beyond being able to care or even to know.

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I'm sorry, I disagree. Of course many people never reach forgiveness, nor find redemption. But it is my belief that they can always achieve this. Understand, I am not advocating that these people should then be freed from punishment. I simply believe that they have the ability to become good. That is all.

Maybe they can. The question is: why should it matter? Better yet, why didn't they chose to do good before commiting a mosntrous, inhuman and evil act?

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Bobby did not mean to kill, but he absolutely acted with malice. Again, we simply disagree.

I'm saying such people can be forgivena nd you're sayign we disagree?

I wonder what the Catholic kids do today. When I was a kid, you could always find an ash can from somebodies coal furnace on the way to school !