Let me say something nice about religion, for once.

I've been pretty hostile towards religion on this board. However, I'm in a good mood today, so I'll try to say something nice about one of them. If there is one religion I respect above the others it is that of the Mormons. Here is why:

1. The Mormon faith is evolving, changing, and I would say improving. Look at polygamy, for example. They realized it was not in their best interests to keep practicing it, so they changed their position on it. Compare that to the Catholic church, which if they ever change their doctrine on something, do it centuries too late. As example, look at their positions opposing married priests and contraception. How many pedophile priests and AIDS deaths will it take for them to see the light?
2. Unlike the protestant denomination, which happily accept anybody as new converts in emotionally-charged alter calls (such as those at Billy Graham crusades), to join the Mormon church one must go through classes and understand what they are getting into first.
3. The Mormons are out there actively knocking on doors and trying to educate the public about beliefs. Let's say there was a child in the street, looking the wrong way, and a fast-moving bus was going to hit him/her if nothing happened. Would you not yank the child out of the street, if you could, or at least warn the child? Likewise, the Christian faiths at their core believe that if you don't join their side then you will go to hell. If one truly believe that were true, and he/she had any love for their fellow humans, then he/she should be spending as much time as possible warning non-believers about the fate that awaits them if they don't make a change. However, 80% of those knocking on my door are the Mormons. The only others who seem to care are the Jehova's Witnesses, so give them some points too. Where is everybody else? Why don't they seem to care? By the way, when the Mormons do come visit me I always compliment them for acting on what they believe in. I kind of miss them, as they don't seem to be able to evade the security at my latest community.
4. As far as I can tell, the Mormon faith is the only one that doesn't seem to recoil in horror when the subject of science is introduced. The only time protestants seem to embrace science is when they relay the urban legend about a NASA scientist discovering Joshua's missing day. To this day Catholics believe that when they take communion the bread and water literally become the bread and blood of Jesus. Not figuratively...literally. In my opinion, that either makes them hypocrites or cannibals. I've never known a Mormon to start foaming at the mouth when science is mentioned, in the way Protestants do, especially when the theory of evolution gets mentioned.
5. Having lived in Las Vegas for ten years, I've had the pleasure to meet quite a few Mormons. I must say that based on my small sampling they are an intelligent, non-judgmental, friendly, and all-in-all good people. Ultimately, people are going to judge a religion by the members in it. I have known some good people who belonged to other religions, but lots of bad ones too. I don't know what the Mormons are doing right, but at least for me they put on a consistently good image.

So, never let it be said that I'm always ragging on religion. I can say nice things too.

If only the religion itself wasn't so whacko.

Who knows, it could be the surviving dominant religion one day, with Salt Lake City, sort of a pope-less Vatican city.

Didn't the Mormon Mafia get most of Howard Hughes
fortune? When I lived in Hawaii, I met a lot of Mormons,
they have a big temple there. Very nice people, real
family oriented and friendly. The religion is straight out
of the Twilight Zone, though. My sister is a Mormon in
OR. That proves it right there.

Las Vegas grew because the Mormons were the only ones who would lend money to the wise guys.

It was E. Parry Thomas, a Mormon banker acting for the church, who reportedly took Wynn under his wing and sent him off on his meteoric rise to Las Vegas fame and fortune.

But the most commendable thing about the Mormons is that they take care of their own.

If you're a Mormon, the church will make certain you have food, clothes, and a place to live.

The Mormons were a huge supporter of Prop 8 in CA, so I am not to happy with them.

Quote: Wizard

I've been pretty hostile towards religion on this board. However, I'm in a good mood today, so I'll try to say something nice about one of them. If there is one religion I respect above the others it is that of the Mormons. Here is why:

So, never let it be said that I'm always ragging on religion. I can say nice things too.

The Wizard has a heart!

Quote: movie

Wizard of Oz: As for you, my galvanized friend, you want a heart. You don't know how lucky you are not to have one. Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable.

Tin Woodsman: But I still want one.

While I have no problem with the Mormons(other than the fact they dont believe in the holy trinity) and will probably be voting for Mitt.....I Kinda, for some reason feel the need to defend my faith as to the 5 points you laid out.....I am Catholic(Roman Catholic to clarify....and some of the points I lay out will not apply to Eastern Catholics otherwise known as Greek Orthodox or Orthodox Catholics or Eastern Orthodox)

1) I think the catholic church is evolving as much or more than the Mormon church IMO....While we can all agree the Catholic church did a horrible job of handling the pedophilia that took place within the church....But I fail to see the link you may have been trying to make between the church opposing the marriage of priests and pedophilia.... maybe you could clarify that?...And when it comes to contraception and your remark about AIDS and linking that to the church.....Lets just say I'm gonna take a deep breath...back away for a moment and try to be civil....Linking the two is TOTALLY a straw man argument....The church is obviously against adultery and premarital sex....So the "condom" issue as it pertains to the spread of AIDS is really a no issue when it comes to the doctrine of the Catholic church.....Because if the people are faithful and dont practice premarital sex...there would be no AIDS problem in the eyes of the Catholic church...and that is how they choose to fight the spread of AIDS...To think that if someone is going to cheat on their spouse and break a commandment...but then think to themselves..."I better not wear a condom becasue that would be a sin" Is just 100% ludicrous IMO...If they are going to break a commandment of god and cheat on the spouse do you really think they care about church doctrine on contraception? Do you know how stupid that sounds?

2) While you will not have to take a class to join the Catholic church...you will have to take class' to get married in the catholic church....I have taken them...and I can tell you they were very helpful

3)While you may not see the Society of Jesus(aka Jesuits) knocking on doors in your neighborhood they are active in 112 countries on 6 contestants spreading the word of god.....As to you other point of #3 "Likewise, the Christian faiths at their core believe that if you don't join their side then you will go to hell." This is flat out a false statement...and a misconception of many atheists.....It is true that belief in Jesus Christ as you lord and savor it is a "guaranteed"(for lack of a better word to come to mind at the monument) path to heaven.....Of course only God will know if you TRULY believe that Jesus is your savor...you can't just pay lip service...Of course if you truly believed in Jesus as your lord and savor you would try and live your life to his teachings......But this is not the only path to heaven....For instance if you asked the Pope if he believed all Jews or Buddhist monks were going to hell.....he would probably say...Only god knows that and it is not for him to judge.....I have seen and read many interviews of Catholic Bishops where they were asked if they think [insert other religion here] are going to hell....and they have said "of course not".......as clearly laid out in Mathew 25:31-46

The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

4)Well the Roman catholic church is not anti evolution and since 1950 pretty much embraces it.....The Churches official position on the evolution is "Theistic evolution"...which is, a concept that asserts that classical religious teachings about God are compatible with the modern scientific understanding about biological evolution. In short, theistic evolutionists believe that there is a God, that God is the creator of the material universe and (by consequence) all life within, and that biological evolution is simply a natural process within that creation. Evolution, according to this view, is simply a tool that God employed to develop human life. And when it comes to modern physics...lets not forget the big bang theory was first put forward by a Catholic priest..Georges Lemaître.

5) After reading this I hope you dont put me in the "but lots of bad ones too" camp.......Sorry if I got a little heated on the AIDS issue....I just really dont believe its a valid argument at all....and to lay it at the feet of the Catholic church just really upsets me....The Jesuits are very active in Africa trying to stop the spread of AIDS....

some slight irony here in that the basic tenets of that religion are so goofball. Yeah, I know, you can point stuff out about other religions too. Maybe the Mormons are just saddled with the baggage of having it all so recent.

also, I find it odd that anyone can admire that proselytizing. I personally do not want folks knocking on my door.

another thing you could mention: they also changed their teachings about Af/Americans. Maybe a bit late with that; it really hurts them to this day with their proselytizing with that group.

If you haven't had the chance to hear the music from the musical "The Book of Mormon," LISTEN TO IT! Not only is it one of the smartest musicals written (save Sondheim), it kind of glorifies, yet puts down the Mormon church. I have had a few friends who are Mormon, and even though the creators of South Park can be very critical of religion, they treat the situation the way it needs to be treated. (And the musical is hysterical as well...)

Okay, now that I have my shameless plug for TBOM in...

I find it quite funny that the Wizard has chosen to admire The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as a religion. As an Episcopalian, I believe that everybody has the right to choose their own religion. Frankly, religion is only important to those who need it. That being said, religions really provide a basis for how to live your life. Most of the Kosher rules of Judaism only exist since they were sanitary health practices 2000 years ago (e.g. Not mixing dairy with meat). While I agree with him that religions can and should evolve to serve common man in present times, there is something to be said for traditions...

I wonder how better off we would be if all children were required to attend Sunday school. There are sets of rules and routines that you get into, and it provides a good foundation on how to live your life. I find that families that don't attend church often (NOT ALWAYS) don't have structure... that can only be bad. Yes, there are a lot of hypocritical aspects of religion, but everybody who is atheist, agnostic or whatever criticizes the tenets. If you can set up a structure to your life, then that basically provides the same thing as religion...

I just kind of rambled here. Sorry.

Cool post Wizard - awesome post Vert!

Just a couple of additions - A couple friends of mine have converted to Catholicism and they went through an almost 8 month process with classes, rites, and other stuff. They loved it. One of the biggest things they learned was about the Eucharist. The Wizard is right it is literally the Body and Blood of Christ, but it is also His soul and divinity. Basically the Eucharist is Christ still giving Himself to us completely, like He did on the cross once and for all. He is not giving us a piece of himself, "here chew on my ear", yuck. He is giving us everything, holding nothing back, so that He can live in us and we can live in Him. Through Him, with Him, and in Him. God just loves us that much, it's how God rolls - not cannabalism just crazy generous love.

I was raised Catholic, but at age fifteen a light went off in my head, I learned to think critically, and concluded it was a bunch of superstitious nonsense and walked away.

Now I'm an atheist and am comfortable with the reality of no life after death.

Like the book says: "Be Here Now."

Quote: Wizard

Let me say something nice about religion, for once.

Not for nothing, but it almost appears as if you were struggling to find something nice - although you got on a roll once you did.

Quote: Tiltpoul

...there is something to be said for traditions...

Yes there is.

And although I am a non-believer, I enjoy and am proud of my Jewish herritage. I truly love going to my brother's house for Passover Seder - even though he does the FULL thing, and we don't get to eat until midnight!

Additionally, because it would feel icky to be in a casino on Yom Kippur, I'm leaving Vegas after G2E to get home before it begins. (G2E ends 10/6. I take the red-eye home. Yom Kippur starts the evening of 10/7.)

Quote: Tiltpoul

I wonder how better off we would be if all children were required to attend Sunday school. There are sets of rules and routines that you get into, and it provides a good foundation on how to live your life.

I tend to agree.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I think this country started to go down-hill when they abolished school prayer.

I know a few Mormons and have met a few more. I worked with two of them for three years, even, and got along fine with them. Overall they tend to be polite and friendly. Best of all none of them ever tried to proselytize me, which is more than I can say for other types of Christians, not to mention Jews and others.

But 1) their core beliefs are as loopy as any other religion's and 2) they don't drink coffee.

I've read about early Chinese-American temples where you could go in, convert your money to tokens, make offerings to the gods, and then play fan tan with the change, all in one place. I really like the idea of providing one-stop-shopping for prayer and gambling. Surprised that you never see anything of the sort today.

Quote: heather

...Surprised that you never see anything of the sort today.

You gotta get the wax out of your ears. I hear praying in the casino all the time!

Quote: heather

I've read about early Chinese-American temples where you could go in, convert your money to tokens, make offerings to the gods, and then play fan tan with the change, all in one place. I really like the idea of providing one-stop-shopping for prayer and gambling. Surprised that you never see anything of the sort today.

I see it all the time.

A LOT of praying goes on in the casinos.

Okay, a lot to catch up on here. Forgive me if I hit on these points quickly only.

Mormons and money: That is another thing I like about them, they don't vilify money the way protestants do. I've known quite a few poor protestants who loved the verse about how it is harder for a rich man to enter heaven than a camel to go through eye of a needle. Also one about how Jesus told somebody he had to give away all his possessions to be a follower of his. They truly pitied those with money as having no chance with god. Personally, in both religion and politics, I follow a philosophy that if you are willing to work harder then you should rewarded for it.

Taking care of their own: I've heard this too. I was going to put it on my list, but didn't know enough about it to support the point.

Prop 8 (gay marriage): Yeah, I differ with them on that one. At least they aren't going around carrying signs that say "God hates fags" the way some protestants do.

Pedophilia/contraception: Both these issues come down to the fact that human beings are sexual creatures. For most of us, and I would say including priests, it is asking to much to be chaste. When some priests find themselves incapable of it they turn to kids, who they can keep silent, whether by their stature or threat.

Similar argument about contraception. Most people are not strong enough to be celibate until marriage. The world population is 6.5 billion people and AIDS deaths in Africa are in the millions. In today's world the position against contraception is antiquated and dangerous. I'm not saying they should pass out condoms in church. However, sometimes one needs to step back and ask what is the lesser sin, using contraception or having unprotected sex. There are always going to be lukewarm believers that meet god half way. The emphasis against contraception I think causes a mindset of, "I know I shouldn't be having sex outside of wedlock, but at least I'm not using a condom."

Jesus or hell: I did not know that Catholics are open minded about other religions getting into heaven. That is certainly not the mainstream protestant view. Now that I think about it, when the pope came to Los Angeles back in the 80s I watched some of it on TV, and he had some other religious leaders on the stage with him. That, I respect. So, I stand corrected on that point.

Knocking on doors: I guess if I'm not definitely going to hell if I'm not a Catholic then there isn't the urgency about knocking on doors. I'll give the Catholics a pass on that. However, I still point my finger at the "Jesus or hell" protestants for not trying very hard.

Book of Mormon musical: I plan to go to NYC soon and would like to see that. Hopefully I can get a ticket.

Religious customs: I admit that many people take comfort in the ancient customs of their religion. I'm not trying to pick on that. In fact, I find it somewhat amusing. One of my favorite jokes on Seinfeld was when George was trying to join the Latvian Orthodox Church. When he was asked by the priest what he liked more about the church. He responded, "the hats." I love it!

Conversion process: If it takes eight months to convert to Catholicism, I applaud that. I was mainly ragging on Billy Graham style alter calls that take advantage of people in an emotionally charged atmosphere. People should absolutely understand the beliefs of a church before joining it.

Gambling and coffee: Yeah, it would be hard for me to give those up. Alcohol too. I thought the Mormons relaxed their position on caffeine. Once I read an interview of Jon Huntsman and he was asked Coke or Pepsi? He responded "Coke."

Sorry for any points I missed. This is enough for one post.

Quote: Wizard

Gambling and coffee: Yeah, it would be hard for me to give those up. Alcohol too. I thought the Mormons relaxed their position on caffeine. Once I read an interview of Jon Huntsman and he was asked Coke or Pepsi? He responded "Coke."

According to my Mormon coworkers, caffeine is not forbidden. They simply say or think that you shouldn't have it. Just the same one of them will drink a coke from time to time if we're working late at night. The husband of one of them drinks coke all the time, but I think he went Mormon just to please his wife, not out of his own convictions (there: gossip about unnamed people you don't know and will never meet).

OH, BTW, there's a Mormon church or chappel or temple or whatever it's called half a block from my office. Sometimes you see a bunch of young adults, early 20s, coming out, all wearing blue pants, white shirts and blue ties, and they're all smiling. It's creepy. but they're usually pleasant and always polite when I run across them at the convenience store or out on the street.

Quote: Wizard

Jesus or hell: I did not know that Catholics are open minded about other religions getting into heaven.

That's news to me too.

When I walk in my town, I pass a religious store with a big sign in the window stating "There is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church."

I had a Mormon friend tell me years ago (~1996) that the then-president of the Church (Hinckley?) had announced that caffinated soft drinks were a no-go, but that prior to that point they had been okay. I don't know if that's right or not. Seems like I've also seen things that suggested otherwise.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Quote: heather

...Surprised that you never see anything of the sort today.

You gotta get the wax out of your ears. I hear praying in the casino all the time!

I meant that I wanted a fan tan game. ;)

Quote: Wizard

Jesus or hell: I did not know that Catholics are open minded about other religions getting into heaven. That is certainly not the mainstream protestant view. Now that I think about it, when the pope came to Los Angeles back in the 80s I watched some of it on TV, and he had some other religious leaders on the stage with him. That, I respect. So, I stand corrected on that point.

There was a trend on the Catholic church of accepting, or at least tolerating, different religious views outside Catholicism. Pope John Paul II was actively ecummenical, often visiting Synagogues and other kinds of temples. Most amazing, I think he hosted an Eastern Orthodox Patriarch, which would be like Jefferson Davies being invited for tea at the Whitehouse by Lincoln.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

When I walk in my town, I pass a religious store with a big sign in the window stating "There is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church."

I don't like that. I'll let the Catholics on the board address that. A position I can accept is, "I'm not saying you have to be (my denomination) to get into heaven, but why take any chances?"

I've always believed strongly that no religion is right as there is no proof of any path to Heaven or even if such a path exists. Until I see personally someone come from Heaven and say "there's only Catholics/Muslims/Baptist/Athieists here" I can't really impart my personal beliefs on religion to others. Yes, i do it anyway, but I really shouldn't.

Quote: Wizard

A position I can accept is, "I'm not saying you have to be (my denomination) to get into heaven, but why take any chances?"

That's Pascal's Wager, isn't it? Belief has a higher potential EV than atheism? Always struck me as a strange way to make existential decisions, albeit no worse than any other. I'd rather choose my faith based on what most appeals to me, rather than what offers the largest possible reward (highest potential EV). But that's just me; I've always thought that religion ought to be a personal thing. Now that I think about it, I play table games the same way. I know that Blackjack and Texas Hold 'Em have some of the best potential EVs, but I don't play either; I play Baccarat and Sic bo because I like the games better. IMO, there's nothing wrong with preferring (for example) Roulette over Blackjack as long as you're not jumping up and down shouting about Roulette being a better game, rather than something that some people just personally prefer. Same deal with faith. FWIW.

The Mormons have taken a stance against caffeine; this is knowledge shared by the media after the Brandon Davies dismissal before the NCAA tournament last year.

For those of you not in the know, BYU (the charter university based in the LDS movement) has a strict "moral code of ethics." This includes not having sex before marriage, among other things. Davies admitted to having sex with his girlfriend, and BYU pulled him from the basketball team, right before the NCAA tournament. BYU was poised to make a deep run with him and Jimmer Fredette on the team. As it was, BYU was outmatched, and I believe made it to the Sweet 16. Davies has since been reinstated.

The media was all over this. In a day where college athletes are being paid or arrested with little consequence, BYU's dismissal seems EXTREMELY harsh... but those are the rules. Davies even admitted to this, and understood and accepted the punishment.

I find the Mormon religion fascinating, if you cannot tell. It's the only religion that is truly, 100% American, because tecnically, they do not consider themselves Protestant. The Temples are sacred buildings whose architecture rivals some of the most amazing wonders of the world. And they believe, 100%, that their main scripture (The Book of Mormon) was translated on golden plates found in a backyard in Rochester, NY. And when those translations were lost, they were "re-translated..."

Mr. and Mrs. Elohim (Mormon God) come from the planet Kolob. It says so on those gold plates that Joseph Smith read out of a hat in upstate New York.

I'm sure the Heaven's Gate people and Jim Jones people spread the word before they beamed themselves up. It doesn't make it worthy of accolades.

Quote: Tiltpoul

The Book of Mormon) was translated on golden plates found in a backyard in Rochester, NY. And when those translations were lost, they were "re-translated..."

I suppose that could sound exotic and mysterious if you're from a distant land.

~

Remember that local carpenter?

Jesus?

Famous now.

Is he? Seemed kind of strange, but ordinary enough.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

That's news to me too.

When I walk in my town, I pass a religious store with a big sign in the window stating "There is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church."

Well...the correct phrasing would be "outside of the church there is no salvation"...I will just let catechism of the catholic church speak for itself

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Quote: vert1276

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator.

Does that mean that if you believe the universe and all within it was created as a result of random physical phenomena, then you're actually serving the Creator if you're a mathematician or scientist?

I was raised a Catholic but became the type of Catholic that really never liked church very much but still finds some good in the belief system. So I'll have a go here:

Quote: Wizard

The Mormon faith is evolving, changing, and I would say improving. Look at polygamy, for example. They realized it was not in their best interests to keep practicing it, so they changed their position on it. Compare that to the Catholic church, which if they ever change their doctrine on something, do it centuries too late. As example, look at their positions opposing married priests and contraception. How many pedophile priests and AIDS deaths will it take for them to see the light?

The position of the Catholic Church is that if you become a priest, nun, brother, or monk you are getting "married" to the church. I don't see where allowing married priests would lower the chance of pedophelia. I will answer simply that marrige outside the church is no guarantee of reducing pedophelia. Is chastity hard? Sure is, but the point is being a priest is not supposed to be "easy."

Quote:

Unlike the protestant denomination, which happily accept anybody as new converts in emotionally-charged alter calls (such as those at Billy Graham crusades), to join the Mormon church one must go through classes and understand what they are getting into first.

I think this might depend on denomination. If you want to get into the Catholic Church you will have to take classes for some time, maybe a year of so IIRC. I only know one person who converted in. Not sure how it is where you have lived but in the cities where I have been the Catholic population is so high there are simply not so many potential converts available. My experience is Catholics and Jews don't try for a lot of conversions. They are also two religions with more of a "take it or leave it, but it isn't a buffet, you have to take it all" system. Protestants seem more loosely organized and if you don't like one church you might try one own the road.

Quote:

The Mormons are out there actively knocking on doors and trying to educate the public about beliefs. Let's say there was a child in the street, looking the wrong way, and a fast-moving bus was going to hit him/her if nothing happened. Would you not yank the child out of the street, if you could, or at least warn the child? Likewise, the Christian faiths at their core believe that if you don't join their side then you will go to hell. If one truly believe that were true, and he/she had any love for their fellow humans, then he/she should be spending as much time as possible warning non-believers about the fate that awaits them if they don't make a change. However, 80% of those knocking on my door are the Mormons. The only others who seem to care are the Jehova's Witnesses, so give them some points too. Where is everybody else? Why don't they seem to care? By the way, when the Mormons do come visit me I always compliment them for acting on what they believe in. I kind of miss them, as they don't seem to be able to evade the security at my latest community.

I agree they are polite, but I don't think the others are not trying, just a different marketing. Fuller-Brush vs Wal-mart. One comes to you and tells you about it, one just has a place to go and wants you to come inside and see why things are so good.

Quote:

As far as I can tell, the Mormon faith is the only one that doesn't seem to recoil in horror when the subject of science is introduced. The only time protestants seem to embrace science is when they relay the urban legend about a NASA scientist discovering Joshua's missing day. To this day Catholics believe that when they take communion the bread and water literally become the bread and blood of Jesus. Not figuratively...literally. In my opinion, that either makes them hypocrites or cannibals. I've never known a Mormon to start foaming at the mouth when science is mentioned, in the way Protestants do, especially when the theory of evolution gets mentioned.

I never was a literal believer in the transfiguation, I always took the "figurative" meaning. But I do believe in "intellegent design" where most of nature was created, but then left alone to evolve. Evolution does not answer even close to the answer "if we came from apes, why do we still have apes?" You don't mate two fish and a dog comes out one day. The pat answer of "mutations" doesn't fly since at least half of "mutations" would be bad for the species. On this count, I will scold religion for recoiling at science when science stops recoiling at the idea of there being a God and that creating the universe. (Or when someone explains where matter came from since you cannot create nor destroy matter.)

Quote:

Having lived in Las Vegas for ten years, I've had the pleasure to meet quite a few Mormons. I must say that based on my small sampling they are an intelligent, non-judgmental, friendly, and all-in-all good people. Ultimately, people are going to judge a religion by the members in it. I have known some good people who belonged to other religions, but lots of bad ones too. I don't know what the Mormons are doing right, but at least for me they put on a consistently good image.

I had the same experience with the Mormons I met in Phoenix.

Quote: s2dbaker

Mr. and Mrs. Elohim (Mormon God) come from the planet Kolob. It says so on those gold plates that Joseph Smith read out of a hat in upstate New York.

I know it sounds kind of goofy, but is is any sillier than the Ten Commandments story, Noah's Ark, Jonah and the Whale, and Jesus raising stinky dead people back to life? I find it significantly less goofy than bread and wine literally turning into meat and blood when I would be able to see and taste with my own eyes that it is still bread and wine.

Quote: AZDuffman

I had the same experience with the Mormons I met in Phoenix.

You should really check out the South Park episode "All About Mormons." It's a different take than what they bring up in the musical, but it really shows an interesting parallel. Yes, they make fun of the Mormon religion, but the back swing hits on how a non-religious family (The Marsh's are Catholics, who in previous episodes, are shown going to church... the show is pretty close to canon too) lives their life vs. the Mormons. The Marsh family (Stan Marsh, the main protagonist) is shown having a somewhat disconnected family. The Mormon family (I can't remember their name now) is shown being very loving and caring. Yes, they are goofy, but the dichotomy is very present.

Actually, Wizard, you should consider watching a few episodes of South Park. They pretty much nail every religion to a proverbial cross. Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Cultish religions (like Scientology), they go after them all. I can post a list of recommended episodes if interested.

Quote: s2dbaker

Mr. and Mrs. Elohim (Mormon God) come from the planet Kolob.

How are home prices on Kolob these days, gone down
in the recession? Does the Wiz have any Kolob license
plates from his Mormon friends?

If you look at religion as a business first, and spirituality
coming in a far second, it all makes perfect sense. Its
just a dog and pony show to reel in the suckers and
make a profit. Its a carnival without the rides, but there
is definitely a freak show involved.

A slight edit to my first post....were I said you dont need to take a class to attend catholic church.......I was merely speaking in the context of...you dont need to take a class or show some of proof of membership to attend a Catholic mass or get in the door of any Catholic church...unlike the Mormon religion were I think you can not enter the temple unless you are a member......But of course their are class' you must take before receiving your first communion......Every catholic child remembers Wednesday night CCD classes LOL....and the work you put in to receive your first communion...

Quote: EvenBob

How are home prices on Kolob these days, gone down
in the recession? Does the Wiz have any Kolob license
plates from his Mormon friends?

If you look at religion as a business first, and spirituality
coming in a far second, it all makes perfect sense. Its
just a dog and pony show to reel in the suckers and
make a profit. Its a carnival without the rides, but there
is definitely a freak show involved.

Wow dude you have some serious issues with organized religion dont you? LOL........I would show a little more compassion and Torrance If I were you..... peoples faith gives them strength...whether you believe it or not...But calling it a dog and pony show and a freak show is a little classless dont ya think?

And the Catholic church is not a "business" in any way shape or form......unless you consider....most major homeless shelters and St Judes children's hospital and their numerous other charities an universities a "business"

It's the confession bit that would get me. I remember some friends from grade school mention confession and I listened in horror - mostly at the idea of either confessing or going with omissions of some facts, more likely. And I was only 7 or 9 years old.

Quote: vert1276

A slight edit to my first post....were I said you dont need to take a class to attend catholic church.......I was merely speaking in the context of...you dont need to take a class or show some of proof of membership to attend a Catholic mass or get in the door of any Catholic church...unlike the Mormon religion were I think you can not enter the temple unless you are a member......But of course their are class' you must take before receiving your first communion......Every catholic child remembers Wednesday night CCD classes LOL....and the work you put in to receive your first communion...

CCD? You got off lucky, some of us went to Catholic School. Though I must admit, having gone to one, pre-1990s anyways, puts you into a sort of special club when you meet someone else who went to one. You could have gone to different ones, 1000+ miles apart, and yet, you know you share the experience.

Quote: AZDuffman

CCD? You got off lucky, some of us went to Catholic School. Though I must admit, having gone to one, pre-1990s anyways, puts you into a sort of special club when you meet someone else who went to one. You could have gone to different ones, 1000+ miles apart, and yet, you know you share the experience.

Ya I went to a Catholic high school....but public school K-9th

Quote: vert1276

Ya I went to a Catholic high school....but public school K-9th

Kind of the reverse of normal there. True story on Cathloic Grade School My family (not me) went to some one-woman show where she played a nun and did all the stereotypical things. Now, my brother-in-law is Jewish but everyone else is Catholic and went to Catholic school at least 1-8, some more. Anyhow, he said he enjoyed it but could see that he really could not appriciate half of what was going on. Kind of like you cannot appriciate "Glengarry, Glen Ross" if you were never in a sales room.

Quote: Wizard

I know it sounds kind of goofy, but is is any sillier than the Ten Commandments story, Noah's Ark, Jonah and the Whale, and Jesus raising stinky dead people back to life? I find it significantly less goofy than bread and wine literally turning into meat and blood when I would be able to see and taste with my own eyes that it is still bread and wine.

Wizard....I think you are a little confused when it comes to The Eucharist....Catholics dont believe it "literally" turns to "meat and blood" as you put it......transubstantiation clearly states the "change" that takes place as the priest recites the Consecration......Maybe this will help explain it...

The Eucharist or “Holy Communion”, is a Sacrament that is a vital part of HolyMass, celebrated by Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, the Coptic's, Armenians, Syrians and Chaldean Christians. These Christian Churches believe that during “Holy Mass” (Sacrifice of Praise), bread and wine are placed on the altar. A Priest then recites an Offertory, offering God the Creator the same bread and wine, made with humans hands from gifts given to man by God the Creator. The Priest then recites the “Consecration”: the words and acts of Jesus Christ on the evening of “The Last Supper” at the Jewish Feast of the Passover.


After the “Consecration”, it is believed that through the invocation of the Holy Spirit; the bread and wine are transformed into the Flesh and Blood of Jesus Christ. Not visibly seen, but disguised as bread and wine. The Body and Blood of Jesus Christ is then offered to God His Father for the sins of men. Then, under the direction of Jesus Christ as recorded in the Gospels, the Body and Blood hidden and disguised as bread and wine, is consumed.

Quote: AZDuffman

Kind of the reverse of normal there. True story on Cathloic Grade School My family (not me) went to some one-woman show where she played a nun and did all the stereotypical things. Now, my brother-in-law is Jewish but everyone else is Catholic and went to Catholic school at least 1-8, some more. Anyhow, he said he enjoyed it but could see that he really could not appriciate half of what was going on. Kind of like you cannot appriciate "Glengarry, Glen Ross" if you were never in a sales room.

The show was probably "Sister Mary Ignatius Explains It All For You." Some other good Catholic theatre pieces: Nunsense (currently playing at the Las Vegas Hilton), Nunsense 2: The Second Coming (there are more in the series, but the first two are the only good ones, and even N2 is a bit formulaic), Do Black Patent Leather Shoes Really Reflect Up? among others...

By the way (referring to a much earlier post by the Wiz), if you want tickets to Book of Mormon, you should probably book now... or else expect to pay a scalper. The show is sold out 100+%. Prepare to laugh though... I'd highly recommend listening to the soundtrack first... it's not TOO show-tuney and it will prepare you for what's to come.

When I went to Catholic school in the 1950's. If you were left handed,,they made you learn penmanship right handed. And In Maryland
at that time you had to be in school till age 18. Had 2 pollocks in 6th grade with me.
Had to quit after 11 grade to support family. Went back to college after 54 year absence from 11 grade and had to take GED.
Got perfect score on reading and highest overall score for the year in Western Colorado.
Evidently the nuns and Xaverian Brothers at MT. Saint Joe's beat some sense into my knucklehead LOL

Quote: vert1276

The Eucharist or “Holy Communion”, is a Sacrament that is a vital part of HolyMass, celebrated by Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, the Coptic's, Armenians, Syrians and Chaldean Christians.

And Episcopalians and Anglicans... however, the transformation/Consecration is not taken literally.

Quote: AZDuffman

Kind of the reverse of normal there. True story on Cathloic Grade School My family (not me) went to some one-woman show where she played a nun and did all the stereotypical things. Now, my brother-in-law is Jewish but everyone else is Catholic and went to Catholic school at least 1-8, some more. Anyhow, he said he enjoyed it but could see that he really could not appriciate half of what was going on. Kind of like you cannot appriciate "Glengarry, Glen Ross" if you were never in a sales room.

Ya but not all that uncommon.....at least not where I'm from(the Seattle area).....As a child attending public school ...of course still attended mass on Sunday(or sometimes Saturday night instead) and CCD classes after school....The main reason I attending Catholic high school was for the quality of the eduction and not so much to do with the religious aspect.....Although by no means was I fish out of water attending a Catholic school for the first time at the age of 15....sense I was a practicing catholic...

Quote: vert1276

Ya but not all that uncommon.....at least not where I'm from(the Seattle area).....As a child attending public school ...of course still attended mass on Sunday(or sometimes Saturday night instead) and CCD classes after school....The main reason I attending Catholic high school was for the quality of the eduction and not so much to do with the religious aspect.....Although by no means was I fish out of water attending a Catholic school for the first time at the age of 15....sense I was a practicing catholic...

Well, I said reverse of normal as where I grew up Catholic HS was pricey, close to state college tuition levels. And the quality was mixed. Classical Education wise it was fine, but for other things like shop, sports, etc it was not competitive. Until I was in 7th grade or so lots of parishes had their own high schools, but most closed and merged by the mid 1980s. Even if you had the money for shop the classes were so small that there was no room to specialize. Catholic HS vs Public HS seperated the white collar kids from the blue collar ones for sure.

Quote: vert1276

peoples faith gives them strength...whether you believe it or not..And the Catholic church is not a "business" in any way shape or form.....

Of COURSE its a business. You know why confession started? It was a
way for the priests to keep up with what was going on in the congregation.
It has nothing to do with sinning, that was the excuse for spilling your guts.
You know how the Church got so rich? In the 12th century they started the
Inquisition against heretics, but it was really to gain wealth for the Church.
They would go into a town, and guess what? Often the wealthiest business
man and property owner was a heretic! So they tortured and killed him and
confiscated all his property. It was standard practice. This went of for hundreds
of years, with the main penalties being fines (bribes) and confiscation of
property. The different Catholic Inquisitions broke the back of Europe and
made the Church the most powerful institution in the world.

Its all business, its all about money, always has been and always will be.
Organized religion is the oldest and most profitable game we have. It
plays on peoples fears and insecurities, and profits greatly while doing it.

Quote: vert1276

After the “Consecration”, it is believed that through the invocation of the Holy Spirit; the bread and wine are transformed into the Flesh and Blood of Jesus Christ. Not visibly seen, but disguised as bread and wine. The Body and Blood of Jesus Christ is then offered to God His Father for the sins of men. Then, under the direction of Jesus Christ as recorded in the Gospels, the Body and Blood hidden and disguised as bread and wine, is consumed.

No offense, but that reminds me when Chief Wiggum has an exhibit at the Renaissance Faire, showing the three-headed hound born with only one hand. or the Esquilax, a horse with the head of a rabbit and the body of a rabbit. In other words, it sounds soooooo lame....

What I still don't understand is the symbolic cannibalism involved. I mean, assuming the bread and wine are now the flesh and blood of Jesus but still look, feel taste and decompose like regular bread and wine, a Catholic would belive he's eating Jesus flesh and drinking his blood. Why would you eat that?

Quote: Wizard

Quote: DJTeddyBear

When I walk in my town, I pass a religious store with a big sign in the window stating "There is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church."

I don't like that. I'll let the Catholics on the board address that. A position I can accept is, "I'm not saying you have to be (my denomination) to get into heaven, but why take any chances?"

The Wiz' apparent shock at my statement gave me reason to doubt myself. So I went and took a few pictures.

Admin note: removed image www.djteddybear.com/images/Church%20Photos/IMG_0142.jpg
Admin note: removed image www.djteddybear.com/images/Church%20Photos/IMG_0143.jpg
Admin note: removed image www.djteddybear.com/images/Church%20Photos/IMG_0141.jpg
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I could not find a website for them.

Quote: EvenBob

Of COURSE its a business. You know why confession started? It was a
way for the priests to keep up with what was going on in the congregation.
It has nothing to do with sinning, that was the excuse for spilling your guts.
You know how the Church got so rich? In the 12th century they started the
Inquisition against heretics, but it was really to gain wealth for the Church.
They would go into a town, and guess what? Often the wealthiest business
man and property owner was a heretic! So they tortured and killed him and
confiscated all his property. It was standard practice. This went of for hundreds
of years, with the main penalties being fines (bribes) and confiscation of
property. The different Catholic Inquisitions broke the back of Europe and
made the Church the most powerful institution in the world.

Its all business, its all about money, always has been and always will be.
Organized religion is the oldest and most profitable game we have. It
plays on peoples fears and insecurities, and profits greatly while doing it.

LMAO....dude welcome to the 21 century.....I'm not defending the church of the 12th century.....I'm saying the CURRENT Catholic church is not a "business" in anyway shape or form......But if you feel the need to criticize the mistakes of the Catholic church 800 years ago....have at it bro...whatever floats your boat!